/ Securing a static rope to attach belay karabiner

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jakass - on 10 Jun 2012
Re-starting out after 20 years off ropes, some in door but no outdoor in that time, so need some practical advice here. Going top-roping at Harrison's rock for the first time next weekend. I was advised that, to avoid damage to the rocks, I will need to drop a 3mtr static rope over the edge to attach the belay karabiner to the overhead fixed bolts. Any suggestions as to the best, safest way to do this? Found some stuff on the net but frankly..... Any other practical advice about the routes would be appreciated too.
Jordon Fleming - on 10 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass: the thing is if you chuck a 3 mtr rope off the bolts all you falls/as you climb the rope is likely to wear and it will all be in one place. but if you had to do it i would tie a fig 8 with stopper at each end and clip them to the two bolts and tie overhand in the middle with 2 screwgates and use rope protectors anywhere where it touches the edge.
foxwood on 10 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass:

Have a look at http://www.mountain-trips.co.uk/setting_up_sandstone_climbs.html - they also run a one hour course on setting up on S.Sandstone according to the website.
Oceanrower - on 10 Jun 2012
In reply to Jordon Fleming:
> (In reply to jakass) the thing is if you chuck a 3 mtr rope off the bolts all you falls/as you climb the rope is likely to wear and it will all be in one place. but if you had to do it i would tie a fig 8 with stopper at each end and clip them to the two bolts and tie overhand in the middle with 2 screwgates and use rope protectors anywhere where it touches the edge.

I don't think I understood a word of that...
EZ on 10 Jun 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:

Sorry Oceanrower, I got it perfectly from that paragraph.
Oceanrower - on 10 Jun 2012
In reply to EZ: Nope. Sorry, re-read it and still don't get it. I''m assuming that there is some sort of attempt to try and equalise the load but it really doesn't work like that on SS. For a start you won't get a krab or even a larksfoot on the back bolt (even if you needed to as they're wired together anyway)
jakass - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass: Thanks for the tip Jordan, quite straight forward, makes perfect sense to me! Also checked out the site Foxwood recommended - really helpful. Thanks for that it was well worth a visit.
EZ on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:

Maybe I was thinking it for trad with the assumption of anchors needing to be connected to through karabiners. I was quite surprised at what I saw on that link. The pictures of the anchors and the cable were certainly alien to me.
Oceanrower - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to EZ: Actuall, those shown are the older style. The more recent, and more common, type (which I can't find a photo of) have one large stainless steel bolt at the front and a much smaller bolt behind it. The two are still wired together but there is absolutely no way you will get a rope, krab or even a maillon through it.
EZ on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:

It just sounds like another reason to stay in up't narth!
foxwood on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:

Yes, you are right - the website shows the bolts at Bowles, not Harrisons, which is normally two different size bolts as you describe.

In that case instead of clove hitching to a crab in the bolt, thread the static rigging rope through the front bolt and make a bowline with double stopper.

Locals also only tend to use one bolt and not two as shown on that web site. Always check the bolt is solid and make sure the bowline is tied properly. Oh, and don't lower off on SS - top out, untie and walk off to save the rock.

<queue discussion re merits of bowline>
jakass - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to foxwood: Ok I'll be first in the queue then! Any other reason for using bowline and not fig 8, apart from speed and size? I take it they're both just as safe.
Neil Williams - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass:

Less of a sod to undo when it has caught a fall is the reason I use one to tie in. Were I a few stone lighter I would use a fig 8.

Neil
i.munro - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass:

Sorry but I can't work out from this thread whether or not you get why this is necessary.

So, just in case it isn't clear to anyone It's to ensure that "moving or stretching ropes do not come into contact with the rock" as they will slice straight through where they do.

The static rope allows you to position your belay krab ( with a little thought) so as to ensure that this can't happen in the event of a fall.
jakass - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to i.munro: I do get why this is necessary - I clarified that point in the initial question! The question doesn't ask 'why it should be done' but 'what is the best way of doing it'
foxwood on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass:

As Neil Williams said, bowline is less of a sod to undo if fallen on or climbed on tight rope hence saves time - bowline = more climbs per day <popcorn moment>

Other thing is fo8 would need exact positioning of first knot for rethreading so krab (on a fo8 on the bight!) hangs over edge correctly. Also, depending on the length of your rigging rope, you may be rethreading 3m+ - real faff - especially when you discover it all needs adjusting by a few inches to get the krab in the correct position.

Bowline positioning is simple to measure out accurately and adjusts easily if needed.

Search the forums for lots of discussions / opinions / rants comparing the bowline and fo8.
jakass - on 11 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass: Thanks guys for some great advice and a lot of food for thought which is most welcome. Now.... does anyone have a giant hair dryer I can borrow to dry out the bl***y rocks?????!!!!!!
tipsy - on 12 Jun 2012
In reply to foxwood: Why would you have to rethread your figure of 8, as opposed to... you know... just tying one on a bight?
jakass - on 13 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass: Been suggested that just using slings and krabs would be a simpler option - is this as safe?
speekingleesh - on 13 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass:
> (In reply to jakass) Been suggested that just using slings and krabs would be a simpler option - is this as safe?

Yes
i.munro - on 14 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass:

Yes but it doesn't do the job. What you'd be doing is, in essence, is getting someone else to tie the knots for you in advance & thereby losing the ability to adjust the length.

Unless you're intending to buy a large selection of slings of different lengths your belay krab is going to always be too low, or much worse too high. The latter will mean there'll be a lot of routes you simply can't do. The problem here is that you may well have to set the belay (possibly after queuing for the route) before this becomes clear.

In addition if tying a figure of 8 knot (which is all that's needed) isn't something you're 100% happy I would strongly suggest seeking some instruction before venturing onto rock.

jakass - on 14 Jun 2012
In reply to i.munro: Thanks for your concern but I am 100% happy with tying a fig 8, as well as many other knots, and have been on rock many times before, all be it may years ago. I intend to set up with a static line as I had first planned and as in the way advised through these threads (DISPUTES ABOUT THE IDEAL KNOT TO USE ASIDE!).
I'm just trying to get as much practical info as possible from more experienced climbers, I believe this is what this section of the forum is about.
The sling solution was simply suggested by someone as an alternative - I was a little sceptical when I heard it so, before I go and use a solution I'm unsure about, I prefer to get some more advice.

I'm old enough and experienced enough in life, and extreme sports, to know that a lack of preparation, information and respect for the challenge only leads to unnecessary risks and dangers. And I'm certainly not so arrogant as to think I know it all and take risks with both my life and somebody elses. So there was really no need to add that patronising comment at the end of your thread.
Oceanrower - on 14 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass: I almost always use slings at SS. A 60cm, and a 120cm take care of most things with a long one in the bottom of the bag.

Larksfoot into the bolt and, if really necessary, an overhand to get it just right.
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jakass - on 16 Jun 2012
In reply to jakass: Thanks for all your advice guys, I'm off to try some of them out, looks like a good day for climbing, if a bit windy. I'll let you know what I think of these solutions when I get back.

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