/ rethreaded bowline

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JD84 - on 13 Jul 2012
I've been using this knot for a while now for indoor climbing as I tend to do quite a few practice falls, and it unties easily and is supposed to be far less likely to work loose than any other bowline. However, it worries me a bit when I look down and the knot has lost it's original shape (after quite a few falls)... can't really describe what it looks like but just a bit deformed. Other knots I've used (double bowline and figure 8) haven't done this as much. So what's that all about? Probably nothing to worry about but... It does worry me a bit! Has anyone else had this happen?

Mine looks just like this when tied

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/107476602

Jon

highclimber - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84: why not just use a yosemite bowline? I almost exclusively use this knot except for long multipitch where I prefer the stability of the Fig 8.
alan1234 - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

Generally speaking a re-threaded bowline seems to refer to a different knot to the one you show there, which I have never seen before.
gingerdave13 - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to alan1234: any pics, as i've never actually seen a rethreaded bowline. But oddly had some wall guy chagrin me for using a standard bowline when it 'could' come undone.
alan1234 - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to gingerdave13:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/knots-booklet

Download the free booklet - but in different countries the name refers to slightly different variants.
CurlyStevo - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to alan1234:
really google seems to disagree. Rethreaded bowline is essentially just another way of tieing a bowline on a bight
deepsoup - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to gingerdave13:

There's a link to a pic in the OP.. Its just the same as a bowline on the bight, but tied by re-threading it (the alternative - handy for tying into the middle of a rope - is to step through a big loop of rope and then pull the slack back through the knot).

I know some Dutch climbers who use it routinely, no idea whether or why it would be particularly popular with the Dutch. Personally I prefer a bog-standard bowline with a stopper inside the knot. (And I like it that the dead-end of the rope goes the other way instead of up parallel with the live rope.)

I suspect that those who find bowlines generally to be unstable aren't dressing them and cinching them up tight as well as they could, but that's just guessing really.

> But oddly had some wall guy chagrin me for using a standard bowline when it 'could' come undone.

There have been lots of bowline-vs-fig8 threads on here, from which its apparent that there are a fair few wall staff (and managements) who have the impression that bowline = death. Prolly not something to mention on here in case the thread spirals off on a tangent of semi off-topic bickering. (It may already be doomed.)
gingerdave13 - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to deepsoup: aye that was the way it came across from the kid in question.. which when i've used it all over the UK and in the alps with no death, or near death situations (as has my mate) it did feel slightly laughable.
muppetfilter - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to gingerdave13: If you operated a wall and your staff had to deal with the trauma of a fatal fall where a causal factor could have been the knot ... then its hardly laughable
JD84 - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

As I said above I decided to give this knot a try because I'd read that it was much less likely than any other bowline variation to work loose. I was happy with a double bowline, and I'll probably go back to it if no one can explain why the rethreaded version tends to look a mess after repeated falls!

I don't know anyone else that uses this knot, I've only ever seen it online, but I have seen it referred to as a rethreaded bowline many times.

Cheers

Jon

Owain Young - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

The knot in the picture is a German double bowline. I believe it's popular in places where it's more usual to tie on to the belay loop - the idea being that having two loops in the knot will cause less wear on the belay loop.

Googling doppelter bulin might give you some more information.
cb294 - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

Thatīs the standard tie in used in Germany where it is called "doppelter Bulin".

I use it all the time, tying in through the harness parallel to the belay loop.

The knot has two advantages. First, it is easy to untie after loading, and second, once you untie there is no knot left that you can pull up to the top anchor.

I would recommend to make sure both loops are the same length (differnt legth of the loops is probably the reason your knot turns ugly), and that the stopper knot sits tightly on the main knot. I also wrap the free end around twice for the stopper.

Cheers,

Christian
Oceanrower - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to cb294: I always use a rethreaded bowline. Mine, however, still looks like a bowline after I've fallen on it.
Dave Perry - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

The knot in your link you provided is a Bowline on the bight provided you tie it in the way it was meant to be tied - and one other poster has mentioned that it can be used to tie into the middle of a long length of rope. This is the correct way to tie it.

Rethreading it in the way you'd tie a figure of eight knot into your harness takes longer and has no advantages.

Try the animated knots website.
Dave Perry - on 13 Jul 2012
Oceanrower - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Dave Perry: I'll guarantee that I can tie a rethreaded bowline just as quick as you can do a fig 8.

And th advantage of mine is that, after a few falls, I'll wager I can untie a damn sight faster!
jimtitt - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

As others have said that is one of the standard ways to tie in taught in Germany (and what I use). It does look a little different after a lot of load (I use it as the end knot for testing things) BUT you should be re-tying after falls otherwise your rope will be knackered fairly quickly anyway.
Dave Perry - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:

That I'd love to see. Especially after watching folk tie bowlines by the landlubber method of 'the rabbit comes out of the hole runs around the tree and goes back down the hole', method.

I can't see how rethreading a knot - especially the bowline on the bight can be faster than tying it by the method shown on animated knots.

But who knows?
Oceanrower - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Dave Perry: Err, I must be talking at cross purposes here. How/why would you rethread a bowline on the bight?
Dave Perry - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:

I think so too.

Rethreading to me to use the fig of 8 as an example, means tying the fig 8 leaving a longish length spare. then taking the free end around what you are tying into too - say your harness and 'rethreading it' back into the fig 8 knot retracing the path the knot made so you end up with a fig 8 made from two thickness of rope instead of one.

As an ex RN anyway I do not use the method shown on animated knots and many other websites.
using a simple twist of the two ropes (I can;t really describe it in words) will achieve with a bowline the loop and the 'rabbit out of the hole' and around the 'tree' in one simple movement . (once you've been shown how) . It also completes most of the bowline on the bight in one go except tucking the loop/bight around the back of the knot.

It's so fast. I've never seen another climber use this method but you never know. I"d appreciate it if someone can find a link to this method - perhaps I might have a go with my camera?
deepsoup - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:
> How/why would you rethread a bowline on the bight?

In order to tie into your harness with it. Otherwise the loop that you flip around the 'back' of the knot has to flip around the back of you too. (Which is how you go about tying into the middle of a rope with a bowline on the bight - you make that loop the size of a skipping rope then pull it through the knot afterwards.)

You're not really rethreading a bowline on the bight though - you start with an ordinary bowline, and its the act of rethreading it that turns it into a bowline on the bight, if you see what I mean.
Oceanrower - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to deepsoup: But that's my point. I climb on a rethreaded bowline. That is, I tie a bowline and then rethread it. Simple.

Dave Perry, above, was talking about rethreading a bowline on the bight. I defy you to tie into your harness on a rethreaded bowline on the bight. Cannot be done.
Oceanrower - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to deepsoup: Oh, and rethreading a bowline does NOT give you a bowline on the bight. They are somewhat different knots.
deepsoup - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:
> I defy you to tie into your harness on a rethreaded bowline on the bight. Cannot be done.

Er.. No idea what you're on about, but what I can do (but generally choose not to) is tie in with a bowline, then take the end of the rope back through the knot to end up with this (from the op): http://www.mountainproject.com/v/107476602

The knot in that picture looks just like a bowline on the bight to me, and the process of following the rope back through the knot seems a lot like something you might call 're-threading'.

If I'm wrong about that for some clever technical reason that you get and I dont, well whoop di do for you. :o)
Oceanrower - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to deepsoup: You do know what a bight is , don't you?
Dave Perry - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to deepsoup:

Rethreading is the method I'd describe most climbers use when they tie into a harness using a figure of 8 knot.

And that method of 'rethreading' is the only way you can tie into a harness using a bowline-on the bight.

You cannot tie into a harness using the normal method of tying the knot as shown on Animated knots website.

And the standard sailors method of tying bowlines is almost identical to the 'Single handed bowline' shown on Animated knots and is a much faster method of tying all bowlines than the method most folk use where they make the loop in one move, then take the rope through the loop, and around the back of the standing rope and so on in separate steps.

And deepsoup the knot in your link is a bowline on the bight.
digby - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

The knot you want is known as the Edward's bowline. It's very reliable. I use it all the time and it looks the same before and after a fall!
duzinga - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:

It is interesting that you said:
> it worries me a bit when I look down and the knot has lost it's original shape (after quite a few falls)...So what's that all about?
>
> http://www.mountainproject.com/v/107476602
>
> Jon


and people responded you about what a rethreaded bowline is:)

I think Christian's advice is good:

In reply to cb294:
> (In reply to JD84)

> I would recommend to make sure both loops are the same length (differnt legth of the loops is probably the reason your knot turns ugly), and that the stopper knot sits tightly on the main knot. I also wrap the free end around twice for the stopper.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christian


I use this knot and never experienced any deformation after repeated falls.


CurlyStevo - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Oceanrower:
> (In reply to deepsoup) You do know what a bight is , don't you?

I believe people were talking about tieing a rethreaded bowline, and that the knot that this forms is essentially a bowline bight.

rethreaded bowline
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/107476602

bowline on a bight
http://www.animatedknots.com/bowlinebight/index.php

pretty easy to see these are essentially the same knot tied different ways.
sarahlizzy - on 16 Jul 2012
There seem to be a lot of people arguing the toss about terminology here. Consider the venerable figure of eight knot. If you tie it on the bight, you have a figure eight on the bight. If you tie a figure eight and then rethread it (as per tying into a harness), you have a rethreaded figure eight.

These are both the same knot. The knot is arrived at via two different methods. The rethreading is due to using the loop as a hitch (around your harness).

Now consider the bowline. The "bowline on the bight" is well known. It's a useful knot for tying in the middle of a rope when single pitch climbing with two seconds. This can be accomplished by passing yourself through the loop. It's a bit comical to watch. But it works.

This knot can also be tied at the end of a rope by tying a standard bowline and rethreading it. In this manner, you end up with exactly the same knot as the bowline on the bight, but tied by rethreading (like the figure eight), so we can use the loop as a hitch (without having to pass the end over our entire body).

There are other loop knots this apples to. The standard way to tie the double dragon doesn't allow it's use as a hitch, but there is a rethreading-like way of tying it which involves wrapping a munter hitch around the rope which means it can be used as one. I see no reason to use a double dragon as a tie ink not, but it could be done using this method, and the end result would still be a double dragon.

The "rethreaded bowline" and "bowline on the bight" are the same knot, arrived at by two different methods. Arguing the toss about this is perhaps fun as a pub argument, but here I suggest it's just creating confusion.
deepsoup - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to sarahlizzy:
> There seem to be a lot of people arguing the toss about terminology here.

Not by UCK standard there aren't. ;O)
Dave Perry - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to JD84:
Well clarified Sarahlizzy.

Yes they are the same knot bit not tied the same. I got carried away with the terminology bit perhaps!
Dannycrimper on 19 Jul 2012 - 188.66.75.54 whois?
In reply to JD84:

i work at a wall and a lot of the people here use a bowline to tie-in. we have no problem with bowlines but i guess we discourage some of the younger climbers from using them because they are just so easy to get wrong if you don't know the knot by heart. whereas a figure 8 is easy to spot if you've got it wrong. depends on the person and type of climb i suppose, i'd never use one for multipitch trad just because i don't want to have to check my knot every pitch
digby - on 19 Jul 2012

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