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This got debated to some extent recently, but a question I raised never really got answered: do the MLTE still say definitely no Grigris for trad leading, or has their recommendation begun to change to reflect current practicesl?
In reply to bpmclimb: what current practices are you refering to?
I wouldn't use one for trad due to the minimal dynamic properties of the device. plus they're heavy and cumber some and you can't use doubles/twins with them (you might be able to get two skinny ropes in one but I wouldnt go out my way to bother trying).
I wouldn't use one for trad due to the minimal dynamic properties of the device. plus they're heavy and cumber some and you can't use doubles/twins with them (you might be able to get two skinny ropes in one but I wouldnt go out my way to bother trying).
In reply to higherclimbingwales: In my years of climbing and belaying it has never been important that the device is Dynamic.
In reply to muppetfilter:
it isn't dynamic though!
> (In reply to highclimber) In my years of climbing and belaying it has never been important that the device is Dynamic.
it isn't dynamic though!
In reply to bpmclimb:
As bpm said, this has been done to death recently.
I think he's just wondering about specific MLTE guidelines.
Please let's not repeat this debate!
As bpm said, this has been done to death recently.
I think he's just wondering about specific MLTE guidelines.
Please let's not repeat this debate!
In reply to bpmclimb: There is no definate "NO" there is however a distinct suggestion to choose a device with characteristics that better suit the job.
In reply to bpmclimb: It now seems rather silly to me as you watch good sports climbers belay each other with grigris and its often WAY more dynamic than your average Stanage punter catching his mate plummet off some HVS.
In reply to TobyA: It might be way more dynamic, but is it controlled? And do you have to be so snobish about hvs climbers? And climbing on bolted protection, dynamic belaying is not necessarily required.
In reference to the debate, I'd never use a grigri to belay on trad cos the climbers I belay don't have a habit of trying to climb beyond their grade,and hence don't fall repeatedly, hanging around on the rope until they have enough strength to continue.
I think you have more control over how you belay with a standard device. And you're less likely to switch off and drop someone by not using the device properly - KIS -controlling hand on dead rope always held below the belay device - it really is that simple.
Sport vs trad - we are different breeds.
In reference to the debate, I'd never use a grigri to belay on trad cos the climbers I belay don't have a habit of trying to climb beyond their grade,and hence don't fall repeatedly, hanging around on the rope until they have enough strength to continue.
I think you have more control over how you belay with a standard device. And you're less likely to switch off and drop someone by not using the device properly - KIS -controlling hand on dead rope always held below the belay device - it really is that simple.
Sport vs trad - we are different breeds.
In reply to TobyA:
In order to give a dynamic catch with a grigri, you generally want to be standing out from the base of the wall... a practice that tends to be frowned upon when climbing on gear.
> (In reply to bpmclimb) It now seems rather silly to me as you watch good sports climbers belay each other with grigris and its often WAY more dynamic than your average Stanage punter catching his mate plummet off some HVS.
In order to give a dynamic catch with a grigri, you generally want to be standing out from the base of the wall... a practice that tends to be frowned upon when climbing on gear.
In reply to Phil Layton:
Why would you think that? Trad falls are often a bit run out and on half ropes, meaning you get a fairly soft catch anyway, but in sport climbing you get a lot of short, hard falls - if you value your legs and ankles, you want a dynamic belay!
Sorry to hear your friends limit themselves in this way.
Agreed
Isn't that the recommended behaviour with all belay devices? Certainly is what petzl say about the grigri.
Nonsense, most sport climbers are just climbers who haven't discovered the joys of trad, and vice versa.
> And climbing on bolted protection, dynamic belaying is not necessarily required.
Why would you think that? Trad falls are often a bit run out and on half ropes, meaning you get a fairly soft catch anyway, but in sport climbing you get a lot of short, hard falls - if you value your legs and ankles, you want a dynamic belay!
> In reference to the debate, I'd never use a grigri to belay on trad cos the climbers I belay don't have a habit of trying to climb beyond their grade,and hence don't fall repeatedly, hanging around on the rope until they have enough strength to continue.
Sorry to hear your friends limit themselves in this way.
> I think you have more control over how you belay with a standard device.
Agreed
> And you're less likely to switch off and drop someone by not using the device properly - KIS -controlling hand on dead rope always held below the belay device - it really is that simple.
Isn't that the recommended behaviour with all belay devices? Certainly is what petzl say about the grigri.
> Sport vs trad - we are different breeds.
Nonsense, most sport climbers are just climbers who haven't discovered the joys of trad, and vice versa.
In reply to Phil Layton:
Done well it's very well controlled and often quite necessary. You don't do it to limit the load on the bolt, you do it to mostly to stop the rope slamming the climber into the wall.
I don't and I've used traditional devices for many years and now use both types about 50:50.
It's that simple with a GriGri too? If you do switch off or get distracted (lets face it, we all do from time to time) I'd rather it were with a GriGri in hand.
OP: I occasionally use mine for trad, usually because it's the first belay device to hand when rummaging in my bag. My other option is an equally hard-locking unsprung Sticht plate so there's no strong technical reason not to use it.
jk
> It might be way more dynamic, but is it controlled? And do you have to be so snobish about hvs climbers? And climbing on bolted protection, dynamic belaying is not necessarily required.
Done well it's very well controlled and often quite necessary. You don't do it to limit the load on the bolt, you do it to mostly to stop the rope slamming the climber into the wall.
> I think you have more control over how you belay with a standard device.
I don't and I've used traditional devices for many years and now use both types about 50:50.
> And you're less likely to switch off and drop someone by not using the device properly - KIS -controlling hand on dead rope always held below the belay device - it really is that simple.
It's that simple with a GriGri too? If you do switch off or get distracted (lets face it, we all do from time to time) I'd rather it were with a GriGri in hand.
OP: I occasionally use mine for trad, usually because it's the first belay device to hand when rummaging in my bag. My other option is an equally hard-locking unsprung Sticht plate so there's no strong technical reason not to use it.
jk
In reply to Phil Layton:
I'm an HVS climber Phil (on a good day!). But I'm happy to be snobbish about Stanage climbers if you like.
Of course not but nor is it on most trad routes because if we're honest most 'falls' we take are when our knots are about 10 cms above a solid nut, just like most sport falls are not much more than sitting on the rope. But once people start taking sport climbing seriously they tend to take more and significantly bigger falls than many trad climbers do, and hence will want more dynamic belaying. Just look at Requiem, Dave McLeod hurt his leg reasonably badly in one of his falls, when Trotter came over to try it he and his partner sussed that if they just belay from lower, have more rope out and give a dynamic belay the falls were reasonably safe propositions. Didn't he make some joke about Brits being terrible belayers?
This I agree with, for me its about paying out quickly. If a mate is trying to redpoint something hard, I'll go back from my grigri to my ATC guide just because I can payout for clips betters (although thinner ropes and the new grigri help in this respect).
Disagree with this. Poor belaying is poor belaying no matter what you're using.
> (In reply to TobyA) It might be way more dynamic, but is it controlled? And do you have to be so snobish about hvs climbers?
I'm an HVS climber Phil (on a good day!). But I'm happy to be snobbish about Stanage climbers if you like.
> And climbing on bolted protection, dynamic belaying is not necessarily required.
Of course not but nor is it on most trad routes because if we're honest most 'falls' we take are when our knots are about 10 cms above a solid nut, just like most sport falls are not much more than sitting on the rope. But once people start taking sport climbing seriously they tend to take more and significantly bigger falls than many trad climbers do, and hence will want more dynamic belaying. Just look at Requiem, Dave McLeod hurt his leg reasonably badly in one of his falls, when Trotter came over to try it he and his partner sussed that if they just belay from lower, have more rope out and give a dynamic belay the falls were reasonably safe propositions. Didn't he make some joke about Brits being terrible belayers?
> I think you have more control over how you belay with a standard device.
This I agree with, for me its about paying out quickly. If a mate is trying to redpoint something hard, I'll go back from my grigri to my ATC guide just because I can payout for clips betters (although thinner ropes and the new grigri help in this respect).
> And you're less likely to switch off and drop someone by not using the device properly
Disagree with this. Poor belaying is poor belaying no matter what you're using.
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
As you say, they're heavy and cumbersome, and I would have thought that that would be an issue for most people. When I was climbing well I always wanted to be as light as possible.
As you say, they're heavy and cumbersome, and I would have thought that that would be an issue for most people. When I was climbing well I always wanted to be as light as possible.
And all real trad climbers climb on 2 ropes anyway (duck for Australian and American posts) for which the devil's grigri is useless.
In reply to Ciro:
Of course the base of the crag makes a difference, I find just being sort of light on your feet, almost jumping works, as opposed to the old school (trad?) thing of stepping or leaning back to take rope in. Obviously you might want a helmet on if the crags overhangs much!
> In order to give a dynamic catch with a grigri, you generally want to be standing out from the base of the wall... a practice that tends to be frowned upon when climbing on gear.
Of course the base of the crag makes a difference, I find just being sort of light on your feet, almost jumping works, as opposed to the old school (trad?) thing of stepping or leaning back to take rope in. Obviously you might want a helmet on if the crags overhangs much!
In reply to David Barlow:
And Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Czechs, Poles, Slovenes, Italians, French etc etc etc. Using double ropes is great I reckon, but it is a very British thing, even in ice climbing more and more climbers seem to use skinnyish singles (the "Gadd Effect"?) or twins.
> And all real trad climbers climb on 2 ropes anyway (duck for Australian and American posts)
And Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Czechs, Poles, Slovenes, Italians, French etc etc etc. Using double ropes is great I reckon, but it is a very British thing, even in ice climbing more and more climbers seem to use skinnyish singles (the "Gadd Effect"?) or twins.
>Just look at Requiem, Dave McLeod hurt his leg reasonably badly in one of his falls, when Trotter came over to try it he and his partner sussed that if they just belay from lower, have more rope out and give a dynamic belay the falls were reasonably safe propositions. Didn't he make some joke about Brits being terrible belayers?
From the footage I've seen Trotter also decided to be belayed with a gri-gri.
I don't have the data to support this, but I would guess that the reduction in dynamic effect that a grigri might introduce is no more than from using a single rather than doubles. So unless people are going to start shouting about climbers using singles on trad (many do use singles here and even more in North America) it seems a bit of a non-issue.
I'm guessing here, but I think a quick review of the photos of the gods of the sport climbing free trad routes on el cap, for example, would show single ropes and grigris to be a very common solution; these people fall off and hold more and larger falls than most of us and hence have at least some data.
>
>
>
From the footage I've seen Trotter also decided to be belayed with a gri-gri.
I don't have the data to support this, but I would guess that the reduction in dynamic effect that a grigri might introduce is no more than from using a single rather than doubles. So unless people are going to start shouting about climbers using singles on trad (many do use singles here and even more in North America) it seems a bit of a non-issue.
I'm guessing here, but I think a quick review of the photos of the gods of the sport climbing free trad routes on el cap, for example, would show single ropes and grigris to be a very common solution; these people fall off and hold more and larger falls than most of us and hence have at least some data.
In reply to David Coley:
Absolutely, sorry that was the point I was trying to make.
> From the footage I've seen Trotter also decided to be belayed with a gri-gri.
Absolutely, sorry that was the point I was trying to make.
> I'm guessing here, but I think a quick review of the photos of the gods of the sport climbing free trad routes on el cap, for example, would show single ropes and grigris to be a very common solution; these people fall off and hold more and larger falls than most of us and hence have at least some data.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Couple of points which ain't been mentioned so far.
a) Gri-gri for trad could be useful if your mate is doing some dodgy gritstone test piece with groundfall potential as you can take in a lot faster (big armful, no need to lock). Likewise if I'm having to run backwards, hurl myself of boulders, etc then I've got one less thing to worry about.
b) IMO it's very hard to give appreciably dynamic falls with an ATC by controlling the rope and not moving your body. I've only attempted it with gloves on (then it works really well). I'd be very worried about someone trying it on me without gloves. If you're on a trad route where you need to be in a certain place (coz ur tied in to a belay or to keep gear from unzipping) and you really need a dynamic catch, atc/fig8 + gloves is the only way imo.
-ross
Couple of points which ain't been mentioned so far.
a) Gri-gri for trad could be useful if your mate is doing some dodgy gritstone test piece with groundfall potential as you can take in a lot faster (big armful, no need to lock). Likewise if I'm having to run backwards, hurl myself of boulders, etc then I've got one less thing to worry about.
b) IMO it's very hard to give appreciably dynamic falls with an ATC by controlling the rope and not moving your body. I've only attempted it with gloves on (then it works really well). I'd be very worried about someone trying it on me without gloves. If you're on a trad route where you need to be in a certain place (coz ur tied in to a belay or to keep gear from unzipping) and you really need a dynamic catch, atc/fig8 + gloves is the only way imo.
-ross
In reply to bpmclimb:
Every time this comes up I cringe!
Who really gives a dynamic belay by slipping rope? jesus, i hope it's no one I climb with.
Considering the amount of energy being absorbed by the rope, the knot tightening, the belayer getting yanked into the air. Slipping a bit of rope through the plate is going to be absolutely negligible. Surely there would be a risk of getting rope burn and the instant human reaction to pain is to let go.
Now also when you think about the breaking strength of your gear, even the smallest wall nuts are 7kn. So inless you're taking whippers onto micros..which isn't entirely advisable in itself . I'm never thinking about breaking the gear, im thinking about trashing my ankles on the wall.
Every time this comes up I cringe!
Who really gives a dynamic belay by slipping rope? jesus, i hope it's no one I climb with.
Considering the amount of energy being absorbed by the rope, the knot tightening, the belayer getting yanked into the air. Slipping a bit of rope through the plate is going to be absolutely negligible. Surely there would be a risk of getting rope burn and the instant human reaction to pain is to let go.
Now also when you think about the breaking strength of your gear, even the smallest wall nuts are 7kn. So inless you're taking whippers onto micros..which isn't entirely advisable in itself . I'm never thinking about breaking the gear, im thinking about trashing my ankles on the wall.
In reply to quiffhanger:
It's actually very easy with a bit of practice.
> b) IMO it's very hard to give appreciably dynamic falls with an ATC by controlling the rope and not moving your body. I've only attempted it with gloves on (then it works really well). I'd be very worried about someone trying it on me without gloves. If you're on a trad route where you need to be in a certain place (coz ur tied in to a belay or to keep gear from unzipping) and you really need a dynamic catch, atc/fig8 + gloves is the only way imo.
It's actually very easy with a bit of practice.
In reply to Kemics:
Me and most of the belayers I really trust when I'm climbing at my limit.
Far from it - slip several meters of rope through the device and it makes a huge difference.
Only if you let it get out of control
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> Every time this comes up I cringe!
>
> Who really gives a dynamic belay by slipping rope? jesus, i hope it's no one I climb with.
>
> Every time this comes up I cringe!
>
> Who really gives a dynamic belay by slipping rope? jesus, i hope it's no one I climb with.
Me and most of the belayers I really trust when I'm climbing at my limit.
> Considering the amount of energy being absorbed by the rope, the knot tightening, the belayer getting yanked into the air. Slipping a bit of rope through the plate is going to be absolutely negligible.
Far from it - slip several meters of rope through the device and it makes a huge difference.
> Surely there would be a risk of getting rope burn and the instant human reaction to pain is to let go.
Only if you let it get out of control
In reply to Kemics:
I wouldn't ever consider slipping the rope through my hand as it wouldn't take much at all to lose control. However, I do think there is a reasonable degree of dynamism to be had from an ATC that isn't locked off tight. I.e. as the force of the fall comes onto the belay rope, the device slides down to lock tight against the krab. This allows a little bit of rope to pass through the device with increasing friction. I always thought it was this action that gives a softer catch with an ATC that with a grigri (which doesn't allow any slippage).
In general, I agree though - if you want to give a really dynamic belay, it is far better to move your body.
> (In reply to bpmclimb)
>
> Every time this comes up I cringe!
>
> Who really gives a dynamic belay by slipping rope? jesus, i hope it's no one I climb with.
>
>
> Every time this comes up I cringe!
>
> Who really gives a dynamic belay by slipping rope? jesus, i hope it's no one I climb with.
>
I wouldn't ever consider slipping the rope through my hand as it wouldn't take much at all to lose control. However, I do think there is a reasonable degree of dynamism to be had from an ATC that isn't locked off tight. I.e. as the force of the fall comes onto the belay rope, the device slides down to lock tight against the krab. This allows a little bit of rope to pass through the device with increasing friction. I always thought it was this action that gives a softer catch with an ATC that with a grigri (which doesn't allow any slippage).
In general, I agree though - if you want to give a really dynamic belay, it is far better to move your body.
In reply to bpmclimb: Personally I don't think it makes a jot of difference what you use. I wouldn't bother simply on the basis that they are rather heavy, cumbersome and not particularly versatile in a trad environment.
In reply to Ciro:
Really? How do you actually do this?
> (In reply to Kemics)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
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> Far from it - slip several meters of rope through the device and it makes a huge difference.
>
> Far from it - slip several meters of rope through the device and it makes a huge difference.
>
Really? How do you actually do this?
In reply to Ciro:
Really? You personally regularly let several meters of rope run while gradually bringing a fall under control with a conventional tube type device?
jk
> Far from it - slip several meters of rope through the device and it makes a huge difference.
Really? You personally regularly let several meters of rope run while gradually bringing a fall under control with a conventional tube type device?
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Absolutely, you can trun the catch into a lower off with stopping the climber with a bit of practice
> (In reply to Ciro)
>
> [...]
>
> Really? You personally regularly let several meters of rope run while gradually bringing a fall under control with a conventional tube type device?
>
> jk
>
> [...]
>
> Really? You personally regularly let several meters of rope run while gradually bringing a fall under control with a conventional tube type device?
>
> jk
Absolutely, you can trun the catch into a lower off with stopping the climber with a bit of practice
In reply to Dave 88:
No chance mate, it was doomed from the start! ;O)
> As bpm said, this has been done to death recently.
> I think he's just wondering about specific MLTE guidelines.
> Please let's not repeat this debate!
> I think he's just wondering about specific MLTE guidelines.
> Please let's not repeat this debate!
No chance mate, it was doomed from the start! ;O)
In reply to Monk:
Just bring the brake hand down towards the lock of position a bit more slowly than usual
Just bring the brake hand down towards the lock of position a bit more slowly than usual
In reply to Ciro:
Obviously that should say you can turn the catch into a lower of *without* stopping the climber
Obviously that should say you can turn the catch into a lower of *without* stopping the climber
In reply to deepsoup:
So if I'm belayed on a grigri can I claim E1 for three pebble slab...while not wearing a helmet...using a bowline? ...and pads :P
So if I'm belayed on a grigri can I claim E1 for three pebble slab...while not wearing a helmet...using a bowline? ...and pads :P
In reply to Ciro:
Unless your arms are telescopic, this doesn't explain how you let several metres of rope through the device (and actually sounds remarkably similar to what I described in a previous post).
> (In reply to Monk)
>
> Just bring the brake hand down towards the lock of position a bit more slowly than usual
>
> Just bring the brake hand down towards the lock of position a bit more slowly than usual
Unless your arms are telescopic, this doesn't explain how you let several metres of rope through the device (and actually sounds remarkably similar to what I described in a previous post).
In reply to Monk:
Your arms don't need to be telescopic, the rope just needs to be allowed to slide through your hand. Apply the braking gradually by changing the angle at which the rope enters the device rather than trying to grip the rope harder (which would result in a rope burn)
> (In reply to Ciro)
> [...]
>
> Unless your arms are telescopic, this doesn't explain how you let several metres of rope through the device (and actually sounds remarkably similar to what I described in a previous post).
> [...]
>
> Unless your arms are telescopic, this doesn't explain how you let several metres of rope through the device (and actually sounds remarkably similar to what I described in a previous post).
Your arms don't need to be telescopic, the rope just needs to be allowed to slide through your hand. Apply the braking gradually by changing the angle at which the rope enters the device rather than trying to grip the rope harder (which would result in a rope burn)
In reply to Ciro: OK. Perhaps that was a tactless way of voicing my opinion, along with one or two others, that I do not consider what you are doing is advisable.
Al
Al
In reply to Ciro: Holy cow. Add me to the list of people you're never belaying.
In reply to Ciro:
I have to admit that I think that there are very effective methods for giving a soft catch that eliminate some of the risks associated with your method.
I have to admit that I think that there are very effective methods for giving a soft catch that eliminate some of the risks associated with your method.
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
No worries, I wasn't offended, just pointing out the absurdity in the suggestion I should care whether a stranger on an internet forum might want my belay services
It's an advanced belay skill for sure, and not one I'd recommend everyone to rush out and try tomorrow, but it's one that I practice regularly at the wall because I think having it in my quiver for when the situation calls for it (say for example my climber has inverted in a fall and is heading head first towards a hefty slam) makes me a better, safer belayer.
> (In reply to Ciro) OK. Perhaps that was a tactless way of voicing my opinion, along with one or two others, that I do not consider what you are doing is advisable.
>
> Al
>
> Al
No worries, I wasn't offended, just pointing out the absurdity in the suggestion I should care whether a stranger on an internet forum might want my belay services
It's an advanced belay skill for sure, and not one I'd recommend everyone to rush out and try tomorrow, but it's one that I practice regularly at the wall because I think having it in my quiver for when the situation calls for it (say for example my climber has inverted in a fall and is heading head first towards a hefty slam) makes me a better, safer belayer.
In reply to bpmclimb:
When I did my SPA about 12 months ago, there wasn't one in sight, I think 1 guy was told not to use it by our assessor.
Personally I don't like them for trad, but they're great for novice or younger groups (or both)
I think with kit, if it's on the market and widely used, then obviously people like then and rate them for purpose. It's all relative to what you want to do.
If unsure still on MLTB stand on them, why not drop them an email or send a letter. Get it from the horses mouth so to speak
When I did my SPA about 12 months ago, there wasn't one in sight, I think 1 guy was told not to use it by our assessor.
Personally I don't like them for trad, but they're great for novice or younger groups (or both)
I think with kit, if it's on the market and widely used, then obviously people like then and rate them for purpose. It's all relative to what you want to do.
If unsure still on MLTB stand on them, why not drop them an email or send a letter. Get it from the horses mouth so to speak
In reply to Ciro:
What combo of rope and plate are you using? I don't own nor have ever used a combination that reliably* gives anything like adequate braking without a reasonable grip on the dead rope. Gripping a moving rope hurts.
*Ok, with a stiff old wall rope and my Sticht I can just about persuade it to hold bodyweight by positioning the rope but it's not reliable and that's with a real turd of a rope.
jk
> Your arms don't need to be telescopic, the rope just needs to be allowed to slide through your hand. Apply the braking gradually by changing the angle at which the rope enters the device rather than trying to grip the rope harder (which would result in a rope burn)
What combo of rope and plate are you using? I don't own nor have ever used a combination that reliably* gives anything like adequate braking without a reasonable grip on the dead rope. Gripping a moving rope hurts.
*Ok, with a stiff old wall rope and my Sticht I can just about persuade it to hold bodyweight by positioning the rope but it's not reliable and that's with a real turd of a rope.
jk
In reply to bpmclimb:
Yet another discussion on an old subject, but still some of the main points have not come out clearly.
The fact that the ATC *and* the Grigri have both been fantastically successful devices shows that both have their place and there is not a clear-cut winner. The same goes for double and single ropes.
The main advantage of the Grigri is it is a self-locking device. The main advantage of the ATC is that the rope moves through the device more or less symmetrically, allowing for continual and rapid paying out and taking in. And yes, the amount of dynamism can be controlled with the ATC (by the angle of the rope to the brake hand). Both kind of devices can fail catastrophically: the Grigri if the brake lever somehow gets jammed open, the ATC if the belay hand somehow becomes disengaged.
The reason that pairs of climbers doing speed ascents use a Grigri (for the second man) is so that the rope is locked off whilst the second man's hands are otherwise employed, i.e. climbing. Most climbers regard the ATC as generally the more suitable device for trad climbing, and the Grigri for sport climbing.
The main advantages of double ropes is that they reduce drag and allow the climber to rappel the full length of the rope. The main disadvantage is more rope management. Weight is not such a disadvantage, because a full-weight single and a lightweight double weigh about the same.
The main advantage of a single rope is simplicity, although this is simplicity at the cost of redundancy. The advantages of double ropes over singles have diminished with time, as the length of ropes has increased and their weight decreased. Climbs outside the UK tend to be more straight up and down than elsewhere, so that double ropes are seldom needed for the climbing itself. Not only have ropes become longer, increasing their rapelling range, the routes themselves have tended to become "better" equipped for rapelling with single ropes. However, if in doubt on multipitch or mountain routes, double ropes are still the sensible option. Having the ability to rapel down a route has its merits!
Also, the distinction between twin and double ropes has diminished as ropes have become thinner, so that in practice one *can* use doubles as twins, even if this is not strictly recommended.
Yet another discussion on an old subject, but still some of the main points have not come out clearly.
The fact that the ATC *and* the Grigri have both been fantastically successful devices shows that both have their place and there is not a clear-cut winner. The same goes for double and single ropes.
The main advantage of the Grigri is it is a self-locking device. The main advantage of the ATC is that the rope moves through the device more or less symmetrically, allowing for continual and rapid paying out and taking in. And yes, the amount of dynamism can be controlled with the ATC (by the angle of the rope to the brake hand). Both kind of devices can fail catastrophically: the Grigri if the brake lever somehow gets jammed open, the ATC if the belay hand somehow becomes disengaged.
The reason that pairs of climbers doing speed ascents use a Grigri (for the second man) is so that the rope is locked off whilst the second man's hands are otherwise employed, i.e. climbing. Most climbers regard the ATC as generally the more suitable device for trad climbing, and the Grigri for sport climbing.
The main advantages of double ropes is that they reduce drag and allow the climber to rappel the full length of the rope. The main disadvantage is more rope management. Weight is not such a disadvantage, because a full-weight single and a lightweight double weigh about the same.
The main advantage of a single rope is simplicity, although this is simplicity at the cost of redundancy. The advantages of double ropes over singles have diminished with time, as the length of ropes has increased and their weight decreased. Climbs outside the UK tend to be more straight up and down than elsewhere, so that double ropes are seldom needed for the climbing itself. Not only have ropes become longer, increasing their rapelling range, the routes themselves have tended to become "better" equipped for rapelling with single ropes. However, if in doubt on multipitch or mountain routes, double ropes are still the sensible option. Having the ability to rapel down a route has its merits!
Also, the distinction between twin and double ropes has diminished as ropes have become thinner, so that in practice one *can* use doubles as twins, even if this is not strictly recommended.
In reply to jkarran:
When belaying comps with a figure 8 we would give a seamless transition between arresting the fall and lowering the climber. The rope would not stop passing through the belay until the climber was safely on the ground. The ultimate dynamic belay I suppose.
That said, in normal circumstances the most 'dynamic slippage' through the device you're likely to get on a route with a non-locking device is a foot or two at the most, and you can easily do the same with a gri gri by bending your legs in anticipation of the fall and allowing yourself to be pulled up to standing.
I don't see any inherent danger at all from gri gri trad belaying, once the inability to use 2 ropes with it has been factored in.
When belaying comps with a figure 8 we would give a seamless transition between arresting the fall and lowering the climber. The rope would not stop passing through the belay until the climber was safely on the ground. The ultimate dynamic belay I suppose.
That said, in normal circumstances the most 'dynamic slippage' through the device you're likely to get on a route with a non-locking device is a foot or two at the most, and you can easily do the same with a gri gri by bending your legs in anticipation of the fall and allowing yourself to be pulled up to standing.
I don't see any inherent danger at all from gri gri trad belaying, once the inability to use 2 ropes with it has been factored in.
In reply to john arran:
Yep, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Not generally required at the crag, but there's been a couple of occasions when I took a potentially injurous fall and was glad i was given an extra 5 or 10 meters to get me out of the danger zone by an alert belayer (one in El Chorro in particular sticks in my mind, where the alternative was an un-lidded head meeting a tufa at a fair velocity).
In reply to jkarran:
You can do this with pretty much any combination of rope and tube device, of course you need a reasonable grip on the rope, but as long as it stays as a reasonable grip, and doesn't become a death grip, it's fine. If you feel things starting to heat up with a heavier climber, you can just lock off and step into the wall to complete the catch.
Yep, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Not generally required at the crag, but there's been a couple of occasions when I took a potentially injurous fall and was glad i was given an extra 5 or 10 meters to get me out of the danger zone by an alert belayer (one in El Chorro in particular sticks in my mind, where the alternative was an un-lidded head meeting a tufa at a fair velocity).
In reply to jkarran:
You can do this with pretty much any combination of rope and tube device, of course you need a reasonable grip on the rope, but as long as it stays as a reasonable grip, and doesn't become a death grip, it's fine. If you feel things starting to heat up with a heavier climber, you can just lock off and step into the wall to complete the catch.
In reply to john arran & Ciro:
With the fig8 competition catches aren't you making the initial soft catch with the device nearly locked by stepping in then as you physically come to a halt you're already transitioning into the lower?
A reasonable grip plus running rope makes for an unreasonable heating effect, I presume Ciro you must have elephant skin or gloves!
jk
With the fig8 competition catches aren't you making the initial soft catch with the device nearly locked by stepping in then as you physically come to a halt you're already transitioning into the lower?
A reasonable grip plus running rope makes for an unreasonable heating effect, I presume Ciro you must have elephant skin or gloves!
jk
In reply to jkarran:
Yes, quite probably, given that I doubt the feeling or rope running very fast through your hand would feel very controllable, but the combination of slippage and belayer movement together can be very effective indeed.
Yes, quite probably, given that I doubt the feeling or rope running very fast through your hand would feel very controllable, but the combination of slippage and belayer movement together can be very effective indeed.
In reply to jkarran and john arran:
Yes, it would be an extension of the normal body movement for a dynamic catch, rather than a replacement. But it depends largely on the climber's weight - a friend's wife is so light it can actually be difficult to stop the device locking up on a steep climb where there's a fair bit of drag in the system anyway, so you can do the whole thing with the device. With someone around my own weight (65kg), I'd take a couple of steps as I perform the catch but let the device do a lot of the work. With someone 20 or 30kg heavier, I'll minimise the slippage and make my body do most of the work (unless wearing gloves).
> With the fig8 competition catches aren't you making the initial soft catch with the device nearly locked by stepping in then as you physically come to a halt you're already transitioning into the lower?
>
> A reasonable grip plus running rope makes for an unreasonable heating effect, I presume Ciro you must have elephant skin or gloves!
>
> A reasonable grip plus running rope makes for an unreasonable heating effect, I presume Ciro you must have elephant skin or gloves!
Yes, it would be an extension of the normal body movement for a dynamic catch, rather than a replacement. But it depends largely on the climber's weight - a friend's wife is so light it can actually be difficult to stop the device locking up on a steep climb where there's a fair bit of drag in the system anyway, so you can do the whole thing with the device. With someone around my own weight (65kg), I'd take a couple of steps as I perform the catch but let the device do a lot of the work. With someone 20 or 30kg heavier, I'll minimise the slippage and make my body do most of the work (unless wearing gloves).
In reply to deepsoup:
Well at least I tried! It was just as painful to read this time around...perhaps more so.
Well at least I tried! It was just as painful to read this time around...perhaps more so.
In reply to Dave 88:
Report the guy who forced you to read it to the filth, get him done for false imprisonment.
> (In reply to deepsoup)
>
> Well at least I tried! It was just as painful to read this time around...perhaps more so.
>
> Well at least I tried! It was just as painful to read this time around...perhaps more so.
Report the guy who forced you to read it to the filth, get him done for false imprisonment.
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