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The term 'redpoint' or 'rotpunkt' originated in the Frankenjura area of Germany and is now used at sport climbing crags around the world. What is meant by 'greenpointing' a route is probably a lot less familiar to climbers.
It's used on the Bavarian limestone crags to describe climbing an existing bolted route without clipping the bolts, simply relying on trad gear, such as nuts and cams, for protection...
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67325
In reply to Quarryboy: I like it.
In reply to UKC News:Great trend ... maybe it will take off with the brave few.
In reply to UKC News:
Like! germans showing how it's done! I love his roof crack route... looks fairly fierce.
Like! germans showing how it's done! I love his roof crack route... looks fairly fierce.
In reply to UKC News: "German invents trad climbing" - we got there years ago.
In reply to UKC News: p.s. why isn't he chopping the bolts? Oh, so he can cheat if he has to. wimp.
In reply to UKC News: thanks german guy for inventing trad climbing, oh no wait thats how climbing is done TRADITIONALLY, as in before bolts.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
Maybe he isn't arrogant enough to insist everybody else does it 'his' way?
Chris
> (In reply to UKC News) p.s. why isn't he chopping the bolts? Oh, so he can cheat if he has to. wimp.
Maybe he isn't arrogant enough to insist everybody else does it 'his' way?
Chris
In reply to unclesamsauntibess: I'm sorry uncle sam, may be you can help me here. I can not find the part where somebody claims to have invented trad climbing....
In reply to UKC News: Why hasn't he taped up the bolts??????????
In reply to UKC News:
Really great I have to say. Certainly something I'd like to see more of over here.
Really great I have to say. Certainly something I'd like to see more of over here.
In reply to Removed User:
> (In reply to UKC News) Why hasn't he taped up the bolts??????????>>>> Has to leave them open for the wimps.
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
I think you need to consider the history of East German climbing a bit more before you come out with clap-trap like that, old boy!
I think you need to consider the history of East German climbing a bit more before you come out with clap-trap like that, old boy!
In reply to USBRIT:
Already has for the last few years Paul, in the USA and other places.
Example here: Arnaud Petit climbs "Black Bean" 8b with natural pro in Ceüse
youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh1ebs&
And, Mayan Smith-Gobat has just greenpointed an 8b.
M
> (In reply to UKC News)Great trend ... maybe it will take off with the brave few.
Already has for the last few years Paul, in the USA and other places.
Example here: Arnaud Petit climbs "Black Bean" 8b with natural pro in Ceüse
youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh1ebs&
And, Mayan Smith-Gobat has just greenpointed an 8b.
M
In reply to henry francis:
Do you post comments in the Daily Mail? All the tell tale signs are there!
> (In reply to UKC News) thanks german guy for inventing trad climbing, oh no wait thats how climbing is done TRADITIONALLY, as in before bolts.
Do you post comments in the Daily Mail? All the tell tale signs are there!
In reply to UKC News:
Unsurprisingly splitting opinion, but ignoring that it's a pretty boring video.
Unsurprisingly splitting opinion, but ignoring that it's a pretty boring video.
In reply to UKC News:
Okay enough, but I switched off a bit at the DMM commercial in the middle third.
Okay enough, but I switched off a bit at the DMM commercial in the middle third.
In reply to UKC News:
Not unsurprisingly disappointed by the reactions on here.
2 things came to my head
1) WW2 is a long time ago
2) Brits don't realise how lucky they are that Trad climbing survived longer than on the continent (due to such things as rock type... not just bravery BTW).
When I first set foot to these islands, trad was a revelation for a lad that was plateau-ing and about to dump climbing altogether. No-one, or hardly anyone, trads back home and I had never used a rock in anger before. It was a real thrill. The skill, the knowledge and above all the culture... Don't look down on people because they're finding what you're doing good and want to emulate it. This is indeed news worthy if this old ethic does come back to bouldering/sport climbing ground.
Well done for the "krauts" for managing not to clip the bolts on hard looking lines. I know more than one brave "rosebifs" that would clip any fixed gear given the chance.
And so you know, despite being a "frog" and living happily in the UK, I don't speak German and don't think the GB team cheated on the track. You should see what goes on on the web back home, showing a great amount of bad feelings for being weaker on the day.
Thus coming back to the OP, let's show good feelings to positive steps and victory not the other way round.
to Fraser- yeah the sale pitch was no gret thrill, was it?
Not unsurprisingly disappointed by the reactions on here.
2 things came to my head
1) WW2 is a long time ago
2) Brits don't realise how lucky they are that Trad climbing survived longer than on the continent (due to such things as rock type... not just bravery BTW).
When I first set foot to these islands, trad was a revelation for a lad that was plateau-ing and about to dump climbing altogether. No-one, or hardly anyone, trads back home and I had never used a rock in anger before. It was a real thrill. The skill, the knowledge and above all the culture... Don't look down on people because they're finding what you're doing good and want to emulate it. This is indeed news worthy if this old ethic does come back to bouldering/sport climbing ground.
Well done for the "krauts" for managing not to clip the bolts on hard looking lines. I know more than one brave "rosebifs" that would clip any fixed gear given the chance.
And so you know, despite being a "frog" and living happily in the UK, I don't speak German and don't think the GB team cheated on the track. You should see what goes on on the web back home, showing a great amount of bad feelings for being weaker on the day.
Thus coming back to the OP, let's show good feelings to positive steps and victory not the other way round.
to Fraser- yeah the sale pitch was no gret thrill, was it?
In reply to French Erick:
Not sure that it ever got started in a lot of places on the Continent, Erick.
> Brits don't realise how lucky they are that Trad climbing survived longer than on the continent
Not sure that it ever got started in a lot of places on the Continent, Erick.
In reply to henry francis:
The earliest recorded bolt route is 1875, the first nut was produced in 1961.
> (In reply to UKC News) thanks german guy for inventing trad climbing, oh no wait thats how climbing is done TRADITIONALLY, as in before bolts.
The earliest recorded bolt route is 1875, the first nut was produced in 1961.
In reply to jon:
Let's put this in some context...briefly, and took me ten minutes...
Some of the most impressive bolt-free - trad - routes in recent times, non-UK
Canadian Sonnie Trotter has made an all-traditional redpoint of the East Face (5.13d..8b) of the Monkey Face at Smith Rock, placing all of his pro on the lead. The East Face, a 145-foot finger crack originally climbed with five protection bolts, was one of the landmark climbs of the 1980s, established in 1985 by Smith pioneer Alan Watts. Until now, it had only been climbed with pre-placed protection.
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/troteastface/
American Hayden Kennedy and Canadian Jason Kruk have made the first bolt-free ascent of the infamous Compressor Route on Cerro Torre in Patagonia.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66115
and then, some of the most impressive routes have been climbed ground-up, placing bolts on the lead by climbers like, Beat Kammerlander or..
Check this…
Beat Kammerlander has re-climbed Prinzip Hoffnung (Principle Hope) at the Burs Plate in Austria a decade after he made the first ascent. This time he climbed it without the bolts.
Weighing in at F8b/+….. E10
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=46473
Also check out what Peter Kamitses has been doing in the Adirondaks:
http://www.climberism.com/another-hard-adk-route-for-peter-kamitses/
and lets not forget, David Lama….one of the world's most talented climbers, and at least in the UK, much maligned, unjustly so..
David Lama and Cerro Torre; A Mountain Set Free
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66281
There's lots more.
Let's put this in some context...briefly, and took me ten minutes...
Some of the most impressive bolt-free - trad - routes in recent times, non-UK
Canadian Sonnie Trotter has made an all-traditional redpoint of the East Face (5.13d..8b) of the Monkey Face at Smith Rock, placing all of his pro on the lead. The East Face, a 145-foot finger crack originally climbed with five protection bolts, was one of the landmark climbs of the 1980s, established in 1985 by Smith pioneer Alan Watts. Until now, it had only been climbed with pre-placed protection.
http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflashes/troteastface/
American Hayden Kennedy and Canadian Jason Kruk have made the first bolt-free ascent of the infamous Compressor Route on Cerro Torre in Patagonia.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66115
and then, some of the most impressive routes have been climbed ground-up, placing bolts on the lead by climbers like, Beat Kammerlander or..
Check this…
Beat Kammerlander has re-climbed Prinzip Hoffnung (Principle Hope) at the Burs Plate in Austria a decade after he made the first ascent. This time he climbed it without the bolts.
Weighing in at F8b/+….. E10
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=46473
Also check out what Peter Kamitses has been doing in the Adirondaks:
http://www.climberism.com/another-hard-adk-route-for-peter-kamitses/
and lets not forget, David Lama….one of the world's most talented climbers, and at least in the UK, much maligned, unjustly so..
David Lama and Cerro Torre; A Mountain Set Free
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66281
There's lots more.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:
Why are you telling me this Mick? I said on the continent. I meant Europe. Actually, if you'd read my reply in context, you'd realise that I meant more specifically France as I assume that that's where French Erick comes from, with a name like that an' all. Apart from a few hopeful forays by folk like J-C Droyer (and then only pushed in that direction by his lookalike Pete Livesey) France's record on the trad scene is pretty abyssmal. I'm sure you'll come up with a host of folk now... Pierre Alain, classic alpinists like Desmaison etc etc. But really, the activity we know as trad climbing never really got started here.
Why are you telling me this Mick? I said on the continent. I meant Europe. Actually, if you'd read my reply in context, you'd realise that I meant more specifically France as I assume that that's where French Erick comes from, with a name like that an' all. Apart from a few hopeful forays by folk like J-C Droyer (and then only pushed in that direction by his lookalike Pete Livesey) France's record on the trad scene is pretty abyssmal. I'm sure you'll come up with a host of folk now... Pierre Alain, classic alpinists like Desmaison etc etc. But really, the activity we know as trad climbing never really got started here.
In reply to jon:
My point exactly... althoguh at the start ethics were dubbious everywhere with pegs...
The difference is whilst in the uk an effort was made to make gear better to push towards better ethics and more willingness to climb ever harder routes, in France it moved towards sports climbing.
Entire generations of talented climbers don't even know trad exists, and if they do they think of Leo houlding or the mad belgians and the likes. All they think is " bugger that for a game of soldier" and never think about getting involved.
Rocks and cams= alpinism not cragging, hence the difference.
I took ombrage to folks dismissing efforts to create a culture where it doesn't already exist (France for example), and taking for granted what they have- being handed to them by previous generations.
I'm sometimes very annoyed with older climbers back at home (0ver 40s) for having dumped the old ways and teaching them to us younger climbers!
BTW, you're right, I'm French (and too proud of it as is becoming to us).
This thread is becoming rather interesting
My point exactly... althoguh at the start ethics were dubbious everywhere with pegs...
The difference is whilst in the uk an effort was made to make gear better to push towards better ethics and more willingness to climb ever harder routes, in France it moved towards sports climbing.
Entire generations of talented climbers don't even know trad exists, and if they do they think of Leo houlding or the mad belgians and the likes. All they think is " bugger that for a game of soldier" and never think about getting involved.
Rocks and cams= alpinism not cragging, hence the difference.
I took ombrage to folks dismissing efforts to create a culture where it doesn't already exist (France for example), and taking for granted what they have- being handed to them by previous generations.
I'm sometimes very annoyed with older climbers back at home (0ver 40s) for having dumped the old ways and teaching them to us younger climbers!
BTW, you're right, I'm French (and too proud of it as is becoming to us).
This thread is becoming rather interesting
In reply to French Erick:
While ethics is a confusing field you seem to be missing the entire point in considering trad climbing to be a superior ethical position, it is merely a different one.
If (as it is for most people) climbing is for pleasure then the best ethical position is one which gives the most people the most pleasure.
In the UK climbers have decided that having both trad and sport climbing give the most people the chance to enjoy their climbing. In France the majority have decided that sport climbing is preferable since trad protecting most limestone cliffs limits the amount of enjoyment possible whereas bolt protection allows vastly more routes to be climbed by normal climbers.
In the Frankenjura the bias is towards sport climbing as the rock is generally unsuited to trad climbing especially at the higher grades since you would block any available holds with gear.
There is a large amount of lower grade trad climbing in the Frankenjura which is generally ignored since it is usually horrible and the protection is often of dubious value as the rock is weak. Greenpointing is ignored by the overwhelming majority of climbers there as being a peculiar abberation and is not even popular enough to be controversial.
And before you ask, yes I climb both trad and sport here in the Franken, know Heiko well and have climbed with him.
While ethics is a confusing field you seem to be missing the entire point in considering trad climbing to be a superior ethical position, it is merely a different one.
If (as it is for most people) climbing is for pleasure then the best ethical position is one which gives the most people the most pleasure.
In the UK climbers have decided that having both trad and sport climbing give the most people the chance to enjoy their climbing. In France the majority have decided that sport climbing is preferable since trad protecting most limestone cliffs limits the amount of enjoyment possible whereas bolt protection allows vastly more routes to be climbed by normal climbers.
In the Frankenjura the bias is towards sport climbing as the rock is generally unsuited to trad climbing especially at the higher grades since you would block any available holds with gear.
There is a large amount of lower grade trad climbing in the Frankenjura which is generally ignored since it is usually horrible and the protection is often of dubious value as the rock is weak. Greenpointing is ignored by the overwhelming majority of climbers there as being a peculiar abberation and is not even popular enough to be controversial.
And before you ask, yes I climb both trad and sport here in the Franken, know Heiko well and have climbed with him.
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:
Another good one is Matt Segal's ascent of China Doll. I think he greenpointed that at 5.14 vimeo.com/3976756
I like his justification "Because it's rad"
Another good one is Matt Segal's ascent of China Doll. I think he greenpointed that at 5.14 vimeo.com/3976756
I like his justification "Because it's rad"
In reply to jimtitt:
I think you have a fair point here: I do find trad to be superior to the rest.
However, I think one should at least be given the opportunity to have a try at most before making a choice of what style they prefer- this is almost entirely missing in France.
Again you are right- climbing is for pleasure. That is why I like the climbing culture in the UK where most style are represented (after a fashion) and enjoyed.
I would not ask what style you prefer and I do acknowledge that you raised a fair point- not bad for an "ageing hippie living in Germany"
I have never been to the Frankenjura as I have always assumed it would not suit my style of climbing. I think I should MtFU and prepare for a spanking in a beautiful location.
I think you have a fair point here: I do find trad to be superior to the rest.
However, I think one should at least be given the opportunity to have a try at most before making a choice of what style they prefer- this is almost entirely missing in France.
Again you are right- climbing is for pleasure. That is why I like the climbing culture in the UK where most style are represented (after a fashion) and enjoyed.
I would not ask what style you prefer and I do acknowledge that you raised a fair point- not bad for an "ageing hippie living in Germany"
I have never been to the Frankenjura as I have always assumed it would not suit my style of climbing. I think I should MtFU and prepare for a spanking in a beautiful location.
In reply to French Erick:
Superior for my taste obviously... each to their own. Not properly worded here. I am not pontificating about it being superior to other types of climbing, it is MY favourite type of climbing (even though I am not particularly good at any type of climbing).
Superior for my taste obviously... each to their own. Not properly worded here. I am not pontificating about it being superior to other types of climbing, it is MY favourite type of climbing (even though I am not particularly good at any type of climbing).
In reply to French Erick:
Come on Erick...
Best onsight: 7a+, E4, V5
Best worked grades: 7b+, V7
Sounds pretty good to me.
> (even though I am not particularly good at any type of climbing).
Come on Erick...
Best onsight: 7a+, E4, V5
Best worked grades: 7b+, V7
Sounds pretty good to me.
Did we miss something? This does give the impression I've just watched a fairly dull video about a man who thinks he is doing something other than trad climbing routes which don't (yet) have a trad grade.
In reply to UKC News: just seems a little forced for the Frankenjura. nothing wrong with doing new routes as trad but the green points of classic routes like Magnet are being done so far as headpoints and as hekio says in the wrong hands can easily end in the holds of classics being destroyed. Very impressive climbing but not sure what it brings to the established routes.
Also worth noting that Frankenjura has a long tradition of hard solos which often go unreported so what color point are these ?
Also worth noting that Frankenjura has a long tradition of hard solos which often go unreported so what color point are these ?
In reply to nicg:
Hi Nic
So what´s the name for lacing up a perfectly adequately bolted route with all the cams I own like you do?
Are you around this weekend?
Jim
Hi Nic
So what´s the name for lacing up a perfectly adequately bolted route with all the cams I own like you do?
Are you around this weekend?
Jim
In reply to jimtitt: that would be the classic bold english redpoint of course... not around this weekend but the following one yes.
Sorry what's trad climbing? Only joking but when I came back to climbing after a 20 year break I was jolly interested to hear that what we all used to call climbing had a new name. Once upon a time if you needed to make it clear you didn't climb the continental stuff with bolted routes, then you emphasised you did "proper climbing". It's also tickling me that I get asked "do I go climbing outdoors?". Sorry - nostalgia session over....
So nice to see that someone somewhere is trying something different to their own established climbing culture, and of course in this new jargon filled world, there's a new buzzword to throw around.
An interesting point though that 'trad' climbing is not trad; permanent and semipermanent runners were the tradition were they not? In fact "trad" was "rad" when it came along?
Anyway - anyone who climbs is better than anyone who doesn't, and there's no superiority to be debated here as long as we all enjoy ourselves. Mwah x
So nice to see that someone somewhere is trying something different to their own established climbing culture, and of course in this new jargon filled world, there's a new buzzword to throw around.
An interesting point though that 'trad' climbing is not trad; permanent and semipermanent runners were the tradition were they not? In fact "trad" was "rad" when it came along?
Anyway - anyone who climbs is better than anyone who doesn't, and there's no superiority to be debated here as long as we all enjoy ourselves. Mwah x
In reply to jimtitt:
Although Frankenjura locals seem to want to keep the pleasure aspect of sport climbing to a minimum. There aren't many other "sport climbing" areas where you would regularly find yourself - as I did on Sunday afternoon - on a route whose crux is clipping the first bolt at five metres above a dodgy landing, and yet in Franken this sort of thing is typical. (See also ubiquitous sneering references to "Genusskletterer" in Panico guidebook) I wouldn't say the experience was exactly "pleasurable" at the time, although I enjoyed the sense of achievement in retrospect.
I shall be buying a clipstick before my next visit.
> If (as it is for most people) climbing is for pleasure then the best ethical position is one which gives the most people the most pleasure.
> ... In the Frankenjura the bias is towards sport climbing
> ... In the Frankenjura the bias is towards sport climbing
Although Frankenjura locals seem to want to keep the pleasure aspect of sport climbing to a minimum. There aren't many other "sport climbing" areas where you would regularly find yourself - as I did on Sunday afternoon - on a route whose crux is clipping the first bolt at five metres above a dodgy landing, and yet in Franken this sort of thing is typical. (See also ubiquitous sneering references to "Genusskletterer" in Panico guidebook) I wouldn't say the experience was exactly "pleasurable" at the time, although I enjoyed the sense of achievement in retrospect.
I shall be buying a clipstick before my next visit.
In reply to AlanLittle: Yep I have a handy 6m clipstick, get loads of abuse for the first 5 mins then after that it seems to be in demand by all... Even bold Jim has one
In reply to AlanLittle:
As nic points out I also have (and use) a clipstick though he is jealous because mine is longer than his!
You either have to man up and get a spotter, place a nut if you can or use a clipstick, that´s how it´s done in the Franken generally, since pre-clipping the first draw with a stick is acceptable the tendency is to save on bolts at the bottom.
This ethic does in fact increase the majorities pleasure because all the people watching get the pleasure of seeing one climber faffing!
There´s worse things than the first bolt being 5m off the ground, go somewhere like Kammer and do the 4+´s there where the first bolt is also the last and right at the top or the 7 beside which just has a row of faded tape threads and not one bolt.
> (In reply to jimtitt)
> [...]
>
> Although Frankenjura locals seem to want to keep the pleasure aspect of sport climbing to a minimum. There aren't many other "sport climbing" areas where you would regularly find yourself - as I did on Sunday afternoon - on a route whose crux is clipping the first bolt at five metres above a dodgy landing, and yet in Franken this sort of thing is typical. (See also ubiquitous sneering references to "Genusskletterer" in Panico guidebook) I wouldn't say the experience was exactly "pleasurable" at the time, although I enjoyed the sense of achievement in retrospect.
>
> I shall be buying a clipstick before my next visit.
> [...]
>
> Although Frankenjura locals seem to want to keep the pleasure aspect of sport climbing to a minimum. There aren't many other "sport climbing" areas where you would regularly find yourself - as I did on Sunday afternoon - on a route whose crux is clipping the first bolt at five metres above a dodgy landing, and yet in Franken this sort of thing is typical. (See also ubiquitous sneering references to "Genusskletterer" in Panico guidebook) I wouldn't say the experience was exactly "pleasurable" at the time, although I enjoyed the sense of achievement in retrospect.
>
> I shall be buying a clipstick before my next visit.
As nic points out I also have (and use) a clipstick though he is jealous because mine is longer than his!
You either have to man up and get a spotter, place a nut if you can or use a clipstick, that´s how it´s done in the Franken generally, since pre-clipping the first draw with a stick is acceptable the tendency is to save on bolts at the bottom.
This ethic does in fact increase the majorities pleasure because all the people watching get the pleasure of seeing one climber faffing!
There´s worse things than the first bolt being 5m off the ground, go somewhere like Kammer and do the 4+´s there where the first bolt is also the last and right at the top or the 7 beside which just has a row of faded tape threads and not one bolt.
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