/ right unconquerable

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rurp - on 14 Aug 2012
been avoiding this for years but finally had a go and did it today. Have climbed 50-60 e1,s on sight and 10ish e2's on sight, sport climb 6cish.

With the bellyflop finish this route is f#####g hard.

Is it only HVS for tradition's sake... or does everyone that has climbed it really go sailing up it when HVS is their limit, top out in control and think 'yes that's fair for hvs 5a?'
gear boy - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: well dont do the belly flop finish then!

I did left and right on the same day, found right harder, and yes my beached whale screams were heard across the valley

Its got loads of gear on it nowadays, remember cams werent about when it was first done, and it was first recorded in descent too
kevin stephens - on 14 Aug 2012
rurp - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to gear boy:
agree right harder than left and left benchmark E1 so.... E1 5c for right.. well protected and hard work....?
rurp - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to kevin stephens: Looks familiar and I bet a lot of people have been in that horrible position but when you look at the grades everyone has given it on uk climbing all the sheep go 'baaa HVS 5a' cos thats what everyone else put.
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to gear boy)
> agree right harder than left and left benchmark E1 so.... E1 5c for right.. well protected and hard work....?

Don't be ridiculous.


Chris
kevin stephens - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
HVS 5a is about right, it's just that folk have forgot/never learned to mantleshelf, just make sure your harness knot doesn't get caught in the break
Al Randall on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: If you found left harder than right you did it wrong, although it's hard to see how, it's not the most subtle of lines. I seem to remember that there is a little "dink" in the slab which sometimes fills with dust and needs uncovering. This stops it being an out and out mantleshelf or belly flop move. But then it's many years since I last did it so I may be mistaken.

Al
rurp - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs: okay E1 5c was tongue in cheek but do you think hvs5a is fair? The only bloke to reply so far thought it was harder than left having done them on the same day, I was hoping to hear from a few guys who are at their limit on HVS. I suspect most people climb this when they have been doing harder routes for a bit , or fall off!
Al Randall on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: I'll grant you it's harder than Three Pebble Slab. Oops what have I gone and done. :-)

Al
Christheclimber - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to gear boy)
> agree right harder than left and left benchmark E1 so.... E1 5c for right.. well protected and hard work....?

This was a very early HVS lead for me back in 1977 (pre-friends)
HVS 5a is the correct grade.
john arran - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

If it's harder than Left U then Left U must be VS. You weren't really suggesting Right U should be given E1, surely?
Mark Collins - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs: Agreed. I can't believe that some people are suggesting that right is harder than left, unless it's changed a lot since I did it.
Ramblin dave - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to john arran:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> If it's harder than Left U then Left U must be VS. You weren't really suggesting Right U should be given E1, surely?

Low-end E0?
Al Randall on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: I should add that it was my second or third HVS and that was in the days before nuts never mind Friends.

Al
leon on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
Another way of looking at it is Chequers Crack is HVS so Right Unconquerable is easy at the grade.
leon on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) okay E1 5c was tongue in cheek but do you think hvs5a is fair? The only bloke to reply so far thought it was harder than left having done them on the same day, I was hoping to hear from a few guys who are at their limit on HVS.

I did it when still breaking into HVS and was well chuffed that I did the mantle without belly flopping or knees. I think the key was I moved fast & didn't place much kit (3 pieces) and hence found it OK @ HVS.
jas wood - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: I think its what I would call "uphill" HVS 5A and think its about right and easier than left.The holds are all massive and the gear is good which is ofset by its steepness.
I Would suggest better examples of HVS that need upgrading would be flying buttress, Kellys overhang and Bivens crack :O)
I think HVS can be a weird grade!
Ramblin dave - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to jas wood:

> I think HVS can be a weird grade!

All grades are weird. I'm thinking of assembling a ticklist for "Peak gritstone severes that are significantly harder than Christmas Crack." (Latest addition - Dover's Wall Route 1.)
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) okay E1 5c was tongue in cheek but do you think hvs5a is fair? The only bloke to reply so far thought it was harder than left having done them on the same day, I was hoping to hear from a few guys who are at their limit on HVS. I suspect most people climb this when they have been doing harder routes for a bit , or fall off!

No, I led RU on sight, when I was leading HVS quite strongly, and mostly seconding E1s, and found it absolutely fine; more or less exactly what I was expecting from the way it looked, possibly a bit easier. But I was very, very psyched up for it - I'd been rather scared of it for quite a few years before trying it. I got up the whole thing in c.3mins flat. I put on about 4 or 5 good runners, that's all, just where they mattered, because I didn't want to break the flow. I'm quite small, and like laybacks, and semi-laybacks, and have heard that the route is definitely harder for a tall person. I remember it being very much about footwork, particularly at the very top (I went slightly right, but not much, simply because that felt absolutely right, with the 'flow' of the route, and there was a small very high right foothold). Left Unconquerable done around the same time, but not same day, I found much harder on the crux - a full technical grade, i.e top end 5b, requiring much more strength and finger strength on that poor side hold/finger jam in the crack. RU is simply very sustained 5a. I did the Left again a year or two later and it didn't seem much easier. I would put Right U about 3/4 of the way up the HVS grade, and Left U about a 1/3 of the way up the E1 grade (I'd almost call it yardstick E1).
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Jon Stewart - on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I did RU when HVS was my top grade and found it quite tough, as I did all proper HVSs. If you think it's a sandbag you're completely wrong. If you think it's high in the grade, then sorry to patronise but you've got a lot to learn.
The Pylon King on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Classic E0
ChrisJD on 14 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I remember doing all three UnCo on a freezing cold winters day - and Little was definitely the hardest ;-)

Back to the OP: there is no way RU is harder than HVS. And LU is top end E1 5b.

As an aside, E1 seems to be a grade that is poorly represented on grit (compared with the large number of classic HVS and E2s).
Jonny2vests - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Its a nice mixture of burly hands / small feet, so it will show up any weakness you have on that score. Its always felt benchmark HVS to me.
rurp - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Thankyou very much. I found that very useful and it is an eloquent and well written description of my own thoughts in starting the thread.

You write 'i was very,very psyched up for it-I'd been rather scared of it for quite a few years before trying it.I got up the whole thing in three mins flat'

It just seems if it is so intimidating, if we leave it until we have done lots of other hvs's, if we adopt special tactics because otherwise we are going to fall off, if we have to reall psych ourselves up..... is this how you approach any other hvs 5a's, because it never has been for me. I do a couple to warm myself up?

Hence the question re the grade.
David Rose - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: If you're not extremely strong, you're going to struggle if you take much more than three minutes, quite frankly. However, I did it and LU on the same day when leading E1 smoothly and agree that provided you accept RU for what it is - a layback on which you shouldn't dither - the grades of both routes are right. To be sure it's harder than, say, Goliath's Groove. But in my view that should be VS, anyhow.
mikekeswick - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: I did it as one of my first hvs's and found it fine to the top move. I messed about trying to get a cam in that wasn't going and after getting pumped found a sinker wire....typical! The mantelshelf isn't too hard if you know how to mantleshelf....I wasn't great at the time so found it a bit of a struggle. I 2nd it after a friend led a few months later and it felt like a walk in the park.
It's not E1 just steady hvs.
I think it's the steepness and it's 'look' that puts perople off and makes it fell a bit harder.
Still got to go back and do left....
Jonny2vests - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to davidoldfart:
> (In reply to rurp) To be sure it's harder than, say, Goliath's Groove. But in my view that should be VS, anyhow.

Don't be daft David, it's miles easier than GG - which would be a joke at VS in this day and age.
Jonny2vests - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

> It just seems if it is so intimidating, if we leave it until we have done lots of other hvs's, if we adopt special tactics because otherwise we are going to fall off, if we have to reall psych ourselves up..... is this how you approach any other hvs 5a's, because it never has been for me. I do a couple to warm myself up?
>
> Hence the question re the grade.

You're making assumptions about the rest of us based on your experience. Its got BIG MASSIVE HOLDS all the way up and a rest before the mantle. Eat some weetabix.
BRUCESTRAC on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: I did it twice in one week way back in mid eighties, was climbing around E3/4 then and admit I found it to be one of the easiest HVS´s I did on Grit, in fact the second time I soloed it.

I would say the grade is spot on.
Oliver Houston - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: Sadly I have to agree with Craggs on this one... Upgrading RU would be ridiculous, it's benchmark HVS.

The belly flop finish is probably the crux, but the holds are there, I did it when my onsight limit was HVS and found it fine. It's pumpy easyish climbing to the ledge (V.sustained 4b/c???) followed by a good rest and more gear than you can shake a stick at, followed by a difficult, but not too bad (5A) top out.

IMHO the left hand finish is cheating and although suggested in the guidebooks is skipping out on one of the best grit top outs I've done.
The Pylon King on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Oliver Houston:

I think there are a couple of 5a moves on the way up and an ungradable finish.
Al Evans on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> With the bellyflop finish this route is f#####g hard.

But have you ever met anyone who has fallen off it? It's not f#####g hard, it's just awkward :-)
Jonny2vests - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to rurp)
> [...]
>
> But have you ever met anyone who has fallen off it? It's not f#####g hard, it's just awkward :-)

Lol, I've seen a few fall off it Al.
In reply to Oliver Houston:
> (In reply to rurp) Sadly I have to agree with Craggs on this one...

?



Chris
quiffhanger - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: It's the kind of route that you get the sustained-trad negative-feed-back-loop on. You either:

a) Go quick and confidently, placing a few bits of good gear and it's all a breeze. The topout feels easy as you've got bags of energy to spare.
b) Go a little slowly, get a little pumped, start worrying about falling, place extra gear, get more pumped, get more scared, place more gear and so on and so on. You attempt the top-out gripped with a body full of lactic acid and it feels nails.

2 people with very similar ability (or even the same person on different days) can thus have extremely different experiences. All it takes is a minor difference and you're on the slippery slope towards the scared mega-pump :)

And I agree the cop-out finish is just that - you don't get the tick in my book.
GrahamD - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

RU is almost definitive HVS. If you found many E1s easier then either grit is not your medium or the E1s were undergraded.
El3ctroFuzz - on 15 Aug 2012
UKC Forums in all their glory. Haha.
pasbury on 15 Aug 2012
The infamous topout is rendered a lot harder if you stop looking for holds after committing to it.
A sneaky peek at the topout beforehand makes it a different proposition - or is that unethical??
The Pylon King on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to pasbury:

> A sneaky peek at the topout beforehand makes it a different proposition - or is that unethical??

Not unethical but not onsight.
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Chris the Tall - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to john arran:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> If it's harder than Left U then Left U must be VS.

Alternatively both might be HVS (Or both E1), but at differant ends of the band
Voltemands - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: Hilarious. I think I'd be wimpering like a baby on that finish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fOEEDUZrL0
Voltemands - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Voltemands: Also loved the fags and body belay!
Gordon Stainforth - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Voltemands:

Plus fact that it's Ron Fawcett belaying.
Christheclimber - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Voltemands:

Cheers for the link. Excellent old school climbing with three runners and the top wire clipped with single crab.
Al Randall on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Christheclimber: Nah, old school is no runners. :-)

Al
Simon Caldwell - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> it's miles easier than GG

Maybe I should give it a go then, as GG is standard VS so presumably RU is only severe :)
Coel Hellier - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

> With the bellyflop finish this route is f#####g hard.

Anyone who thinks that must have forgotten that there are good footholds, and have left their feet dangling! If you plan where you're going to put your feet, and remember this when they're out of sight because your head is over the top, then it's relatively ok, perhaps 4c (and stonkingly protected and just after a decent rest).
mcdougal - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I seconded RU on Saturday and found it quite steady. However, I'd have struggled/failed if I'd had to place gear too.

Compare RU with Cave Arete (as it's nearby and I led it recently). RU's miles harder IMO but yet they're both regarded as benchmark HVS 5a.

I'm not arguing with the grading as they both felt HVS but isn't the adjectival grade supposed to reflect sustainedness?
Euge - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to davidoldfart)
> [...]
>
> Don't be daft David, it's miles easier than GG - which would be a joke at VS in this day and age.

Totally agree.. much easier than GG...

E
Kemics - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to mcdougal:

I don't know if it was because it was one of my first routes on grit so hadn't got used to the style. But the crux on cave arete I thought was bloody stiff. Well protected and easy afterwards so HVS seems right but by no means an easy tick :)
Jon Stewart - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to mcdougal:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
>
> Compare RU with Cave Arete (as it's nearby and I led it recently). RU's miles harder IMO but yet they're both regarded as benchmark HVS 5a.
>
Not really, RU is middling HVS, Cave Arete is low in the grade. It was one of my first, and I often recommend it to others as theirs.

For comparison's sake, even on Stanage there are scores of HVSs that are about twice as hard as RU - here's a few:

Surgeon's Saunter
Cave Gully Wall (sandbag!)
Deuteronomy
Kelly's Overhang
Terrazza Crack

Elsewhere on grit, HVS gets even harder than that:

The Mincer
The Ivory Tower
Batchelor's Left Hand
Hen Cloud Eliminate

I'm not suggesting of course that these routes are any easier than lots of E1s, they're far harder (and indeed harder than some E2s), but that's how it goes.

"Sh!t me that's hard for HVS" is a very common experience and RU does not even approach it.
ChrisJD on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I found the crux on Cave Arete (done at least 4x over the years) trickier than any of the moves on RU (including the top out). But then I love grit laybacking moves on big holds and can place cams fast ;-)
rurp - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart: never tried kelly's, surgeons saunter or the ivory tower. Done the others, found them easier and some of them are hvs5b.

I think the 'bellyflop' is more than 5a at the end of a sapping overhanging layback. Someone showed a video of geoff birtles leading it and he did not make it look good. Now he is/was a much better climber than me and surely he should make 5a look good at least for the camera.

Ultimately is does not matter if you grade it mod. Its a bit like mike tyson, even if he has a note pinned to his head saying 'soft' you are not going to start a fight with either unless you are pretty confident at the grade so no-one is likely to die as a result of the grade which it the important thing.
Postmanpat on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) never tried kelly's, surgeons saunter or the ivory tower. Done the others, found them easier and some of them are hvs5b.
>
So you had a bad day when you did RU or you just cocked it up.

It's bog standard HVS 5a. That's what it's always been and that's what the UKC logbooks overwhelmingly confirm it to be.
Jon Stewart - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) never tried kelly's, surgeons saunter or the ivory tower. Done the others, found them easier and some of them are hvs5b.
>

Wow - RU harder than Hen Cloud Eliminate and Mincer! The ones you haven't done are much easier than those, although technically the hardest is probably (the blatantly 5c but did not see a warm reaction when upgraded) Kelly's.

That top-out's quite unpleasant but it isn't necessarily difficult. As someone above says, if you put your feet in the break (which is out of view) it's no drama at all, otherwise you can just roll onto the top.

Can I suggest you have a go at this one? If you think all those nails HVSs are OK you'll be fine on it, and it's an excellent route (bold lower down but the hideous top-out is safe).

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=11040

Christheclimber - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Randall:
> (In reply to Christheclimber) Nah, old school is no runners. :-)
>
> Al

Real old school would be descending the route...
mcdougal - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

All the routes that you've listed are, off the top of my head, 5b or 5c so they feel harder because the moves are harder.

My Cave Arete example has maybe one 5a move plus rests, whereas RU has maybe four 5a moves and fewer rests but has the same adjecival grade.

To repeat: isn't the adjectival grade supposed to reflect sustainedness?
Jon Stewart - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to mcdougal:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> All the routes that you've listed are, off the top of my head, 5b or 5c so they feel harder because the moves are harder.

True. They are harder, both technically and in the adjectival sense. Yet still HVS.
>
> My Cave Arete example has maybe one 5a move plus rests, whereas RU has maybe four 5a moves and fewer rests but has the same adjecival grade.

Yes, that's why Cave Arete is low in the grade and RU in the middle.

> To repeat: isn't the adjectival grade supposed to reflect sustainedness?

It does, amongst other things.
Jonny2vests - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to mcdougal:

Yeah, but is it really that sustained? The layback moves on small feet are short lived, you're back in balance soon after turning the flake.
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mcdougal - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Isn't that the same as saying that the grading system doesn't work? Or is it just congested at HVS?
rurp - on 15 Aug 2012
> been avoiding this for years but finally had a go and did it today. Have climbed 50-60 e1,s on sight and 10ish e2's on sight, sport climb 6cish.
>
> With the bellyflop finish this route is f#####g hard.
>
> Is it only HVS for tradition's sake... or does everyone that has climbed it really go sailing up it when HVS is their limit, top out in control and think 'yes that's fair for hvs 5a?'

Okay I give up. nearly 2000 people have looked at the thread and no one else has written to say the 'bellyflop' finish is any more than 5a. Democracy rules, I'm going back to e1s and 2's and 5bs and 5c's, I understand them!

Jon Stewart - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to mcdougal:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Isn't that the same as saying that the grading system doesn't work? Or is it just congested at HVS?

Neither. It's just that each grade is a reasonably broad band (and the bands overlap considerably). Think of the easiest route of any grade you've done compared to the hardest at that grade - they're utterly different levels of difficulty.
Si dH - on 15 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
Beached whale is only for those who have no technique.

I had no technique either the first two times I did it.

It's HVS. There are lots of harder ones about.
mcdougal - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to mcdougal)

> Neither. It's just that each grade is a reasonably broad band (and the bands overlap considerably).

I'd argue that HVS is broader than the any other, that I've climbed at least.

Before now I thought that the E0 argument was pretty silly. Not so sure now.
GrahamD - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to mcdougal:

You cannot hope to narrow the grade ranges because grades are only a guide - they cannot be precisely and mathematically defined. Different people weigh sustainedness, lack of pro, technical difficulty differently. Add to that that grit routes are abnormally short anyway (The idea of a 8m route being 'sustained' might be amusing to someone who has just done 200m of Centurion for instance)

All you can hope for is a broad concensus and sometimes (many times?) you will not agree with it (one way or the other)
rurp - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Si dH:
> (In reply to rurp)
> Beached whale is only for those who have no technique.
>
> I had no technique either the first two times I did it.
>
> It's HVS. There are lots of harder ones about.

Fair enough I bow to concensus, but have a look at the video someone put on one of the replies above of geoff birtles doing it. he is a proper good climber who has done some good stuff on grit. He doesn't make it look 5a and he has taken a video of it, you always try to look good for the camera!

lets call it the 'elegant mantleshelf finish 5a' then all 6a climbers who love technical balance climbs like me can do it easily instead of trying to bellflop!
GrahamD - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Why can't a belly flop be 5a ?
gear boy - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: Ok, I will come back in on this,

RU is HVS, way too much gear nowadays to be upgraded, I found LU easier yes I did it first, but it does have less gear so E1

what you are saying is topping out is not HVS 5a, well, its protected and a classic top out

Compared to Monday blue on the arete, i thought this was soft for the grade

and as has been said there are plenty of HVS routes that are harder and I have done most of the ones talked about, some now upgraded to E1 some not (kellys overhang i think should still be HVS)
Mantle finishes have never been my thing, one of the worst I remember was Mad Hatter at curbar, totally safe but could not mantle it so took a while to beach on that one

someone i know once said, dont do anything under E1, then you dont have to fail on anytihng under E1!

Overlap in grades varies from persons own style, but there is a broad range of HVS and E1 that could be one or the other, I am not too bothered either way

and as a suggestion to a HVS climber I would say have a go at RU, its got loads of gear on it, safer than so many other HVS 5a's, like billiard buttress as example nearby way bigger fall potential here
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Interestingly, when Joe Brown repeated it for me to take pictures of it for my Peak book in 1996 at the age of 65 (he wasn't 100 per cent sure, but thought it was the first time he'd ever repeated it since the first ascent in 1949), he did it very neatly as a straight mantelshelf, with very little belly-roll at all. By the time he'd got to the final moves I'd jumared to the top so I was able to watch this very closely. He got both hands on the sloping top, pulled up strongly (finding one smallish rugosity as a finger hold), then did a little bounce and flipped his hands round so that they faced each other palms down, with the fingers almost touching. He immediately turned it into a very straight mantelshelf-pressup, until his arms were almost straight, tilted forward at the waist, and propelled himself slightly forward, which enabled him to get his right leg up on to the top. He then just rolled round slightly and just stood up. With a big grin on his face. Of course, Joe was always famously good at mantelshelf moves.
Al Evans on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Voltemands:
> (In reply to rurp) Hilarious. I think I'd be wimpering like a baby on that finish
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fOEEDUZrL0

He he, I shot that video , along with my old mate Chris Johnston.
Ramblin dave - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

> lets call it the 'elegant mantleshelf finish 5a' then all 6a climbers who love technical balance climbs like me can do it easily instead of trying to bellflop!


A bellflop sounds painful, particularly since people are saying it's a bit stiff...
Postmanpat on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Voltemands)
> [...]
>
> He he, I shot that video , along with my old mate Chris Johnston.

Did Birtles have a hangover or something? For someone who could probably do it in his sleep he did seem to be making heavy weather of it.

Offwidth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

When I led it I was pumped silly near the top from placing gear in a strenuous position below (should have blasted through). There is good half-rest just below the top where I decided to wait a bit and recover: especially given the reputation of the top-out and the description of it in the wonderful Steve Ashton guide ("it's over the top searching for a barely adequate finger hold to support a leg flailing finish"). Hence, I had a good look at foot placements. When I went for it I stayed low, placed a high foot, moved up and the mantel felt about 4c. Years later, seconding, as an experiment I tried it ignoring my feet and I was left grasping on the edge: hard 5a maybe 5b then. You can also finish leftwards of course.

A clear lesson here is never grade a route based on a single struggling attempt. If, like Kellys Overhang, it gets you again and again despite exploring different options, then maybe it's E1.
Tomar - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: Fell off Right U. trying the ridiculous bellyflop move and instead went on onsighting fairly confortably Left U. Both E1's in my view but then again it was my first time on grit..
Simon Caldwell - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Offwidth:

Anyone know how the bellyflop finish to RU compares with the bellyflop finish of V Chimney Direct (VS) at Almscliff?
paul__in_sheffield - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: The tech grade relates to the hardest move on the route, which isn't the topout from what I remember (pre-Friends i'm afraid). As the route is very well protected on big holds (mostly) and not uber steep, it's a bit sustained in the middle, so it gets bang-on HVS 5a.What a great route.
Back in the mid 80s Big Ron did a repeated demo of the top move while soloing, leaving me no choice but to avoid beaching as I came up after him. No pressure there then.
I guess the French grade would be F5+ ish, which is safe HVS, well inside your 6c ish.
Andy Stephenson - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: I led it when just breaking into the HVS grade and found it quite easy (HVS 5a). I didn't belly-flop at the top but got my fingers behind a little crease, stuck a leg over the top and and levered up. Didn't have a problem with Goliath's either, but I was good at laybacking.
Offwidth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Toreador:

There you go asking awkward questions. More to the point why not compare it to the Almscliffe NE gully severes!
Scott - on 16 Aug 2012
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rurp - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Vertigo1: Thanks I share my madness with one other!
rurp - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> Interestingly, when Joe Brown repeated it for me to take pictures of it for my Peak book in 1996 at the age of 65 (he wasn't 100 per cent sure, but thought it was the first time he'd ever repeated it since the first ascent in 1949), he did it very neatly as a straight mantelshelf, with very little belly-roll at all. By the time he'd got to the final moves I'd jumared to the top so I was able to watch this very closely. He got both hands on the sloping top, pulled up strongly (finding one smallish rugosity as a finger hold), then did a little bounce and flipped his hands round so that they faced each other palms down, with the fingers almost touching. He immediately turned it into a very straight mantelshelf-pressup, until his arms were almost straight, tilted forward at the waist, and propelled himself slightly forward, which enabled him to get his right leg up on to the top. He then just rolled round slightly and just stood up. With a big grin on his face. Of course, Joe was always famously good at mantelshelf moves.

thanks gordon i have that book its great. I think i had better go back and have another go. I think maybe because it was the 'bellyflop finish' maybe I just tried it that way. I never usually do gritstone mantleshelf finishes that way, though it was interesting geoff birtles did it that way for the camera, maybe he was just having a laugh!

When psyched up you don't always 'use your loaf'
rurp - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Voltemands)
> [...]
>
> He he, I shot that video , along with my old mate Chris Johnston.

Do you remember if he was muckin' about on the finish to increase the drama?

It was a great video but he looked smooth and totally in control till the top then did exactly the same as me....
Al Evans on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: He wasn't 'muckin about', he just doesn't like that move :-)
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Tip: go slightly right - pull up on sloping top. Get right foot up on right foot on lip of top overhang (I think - memory from long time ago). Push down/mantel strongly, while pushing with right foot. Rock right forward ... and you should be able to reach 'better finishing holds' ...
Coel Hellier - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Or even easier:

Get your elbows over the top; get a foot on the ruddy great footholds in the break a foot below the top; rock over; done. 4c-ish. V0-

For beta on those footholds see http://climbers.net/photos/0638 (no legs-flailing, belly-flop, beached-whale-like manoeuvres necessary!)
Offwidth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Another beta alert... that photo is pretty much exactly how I did it I could reach the right edge after I stood up with help from a smaller finger hold but I have a positive ape index. I also got a hands off rest just below where she is by leg hooking the arete.
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I like the elbows idea! BTW - the way I did it, likewise, didn't seem any harder than 4c (hard to tell, because I was keyed up/climbing well)
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Isn't it rather a pity to be giving out all this beta? (I'm to blame too).
rurp - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to Offwidth: I can see if you go out to the right arete it might help you. Going a long way left is also easier.

My question was more that if you went direct where the rockfax guide shows is it really 5a.

ultimately its all b***s*** as you should should find the most elegant and sensible way to get to the top but i can certainly see this right hand way to finish could be easier
MarkRoe - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I've on sighted loads of HVS's now as well as a large number of E1's, 10-15 or so E2's and a handful of E3's and I fell off right unconquerable first time I tried it (granted it was a very greasy day). I've always said that if it's HVS, all the other HVS's I've done were really VS's at best.

Maybe I just have some serious weaknesses.
rurp - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to MarkRoe:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> I've on sighted loads of HVS's now as well as a large number of E1's, 10-15 or so E2's and a handful of E3's and I fell off right unconquerable first time I tried it (granted it was a very greasy day). I've always said that if it's HVS, all the other HVS's I've done were really VS's at best.
>
> Maybe I just have some serious weaknesses.

excellent that is two people that don't think I am a psycho!
Offwidth - on 16 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

If there is a choice between a topo line and a naturally easier way the climb normally follows the later; obvious exceptions to this are usually called elliminates. People should be very careful about following topo lines rigidly. The 'right arete' is the normal way and is only reasonable if you put your foot up before you move because the capping layers overlap on the right as well as the front.
nikhoward - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

when i first climbed it in 95 I was a steady on sight E2 leader and I would say one of the hardest work outs I had ever had on a route (complete with bellyflop)
Al Randall on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to nikhoward: I think that you have to allow for the "grit" factor. If you are not used to climbing on grit, routes like this do feel much harder but once you have got used to it it's fine. I think that most people on here who found RU easy are probably experienced grit climbers. Those who find it hard are probably not. I served my apprenticeship on grit but when we started climbing in North Wales we found everything, grade for grade, much easier. Technically that is. It definitely felt more committing so we allowed a couple of grades. This was back in the day when there wasn't much protection on either. Having moved away from grit some years ago I find that I have to do a few routes on it to get back to the grade I would expect to operate at on other types of rock.

Al
Christheclimber - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
>
> Isn't it rather a pity to be giving out all this beta? (I'm to blame too).

Yes far too much beta being given out, what happened to adventure i.e. just going out and finding out yourself.
wilkesley - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to nikhoward:

Have you every tried The Rasp:) Very similar in style to RU, but much steeper. Both seem to be in that category of climb that isn't that technically hard, but if you aren't strong and confident will seem desperate. In fact if they were less than vertical they would probably be about Severe. [Retreats to deep nuclear bunker]

For the record I think that RU is the correct grade and I have never managed to lead the Rasp. On one attempt on the Rasp in the late 70's we had to go back to Sheffield for a ladder, because we got a runner stuck and couldn't reach it from an abseil rope.
Christheclimber - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to wilkesley:

Love the ladder !!
GrahamJ on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Randall:

The "grit factor" is tame in comparrsion to Northumberland or Southern Sandstone. It pays to climb on as many different rock types as possible.
GrahamJ on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Loads of low grade bouldering mileage will sort your topping-out skills.
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Simon Caldwell - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to GrahamJ:
> Loads of low grade bouldering mileage will sort your topping-out skills.

You mean he'll get used to getting his hands onto the top and then jumping off
rurp - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to GrahamJ: I remember some traverse down then mantle up on the roaches lower tier that got font 6b in the bouldering guide. I found it similar to RU did them both first go onsight but neither are 5a english technical grade in my deluded opinion!
Done loads of bouldering on grit and climbed only on grit really for the last 10 years.

I was not in any danger of falling. It was not close to my limit. I went up onto my belly, then lowered myself back down to reasses the foot holds then gave it a bit more. My mate seconds me up e2's, he left all the gear in (3 pieces from the ledge) to save his arms and still had to borrow my foot to haul himself over the edge.

i thought this thread had died.....but to repeat the question, 'is it really 5a'. Some bloke said the top move was vo 4c! that made me laugh as unless there is an harder move lower down which we all know there isn't I guess he is suggesting a VS4c grade. Good to know I am one end of the crazy english trad debate but there are nutters at the other end too!
rurp - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to nikhoward:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> when i first climbed it in 95 I was a steady on sight E2 leader and I would say one of the hardest work outs I had ever had on a route (complete with bellyflop)

Agree. Sorry, that makes you another deluded soft case like me!
In reply to rurp:
> (In reply to nikhoward)
> [...]
>
> Agree. Sorry, that makes you another deluded soft case like me!

Go on then, given a free-hand, what grade would you like us to give it next time round?


Chris
Gordon Stainforth - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to wilkesley:
> (In reply to nikhoward)
>
> Have you every tried The Rasp:) Very similar in style to RU, but much steeper. Both seem to be in that category of climb that isn't that technically hard, but if you aren't strong and confident will seem desperate. In fact if they were less than vertical they would probably be about Severe. [Retreats to deep nuclear bunker]
>
> For the record I think that RU is the correct grade and I have never managed to lead the Rasp. On one attempt on the Rasp in the late 70's we had to go back to Sheffield for a ladder, because we got a runner stuck and couldn't reach it from an abseil rope.

Well, the Rasp is very like RU but overhanging by at least 20 degrees, so it's at least two full adjectival grades harder. I was very proud of being able to second it just, to within about six inches of the top (i.e the end of the traverse to the right) ... with a very tight rope. It all went wrong for me at the top because Kath (Pyke) couldn't of course give me a tight rope on the traverse (pulling in wrong direction). Didn't mind failing a bit.

Coel Hellier - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

> Some bloke said the top move was vo 4c! that made me laugh as unless there is an harder move lower down
> which we all know there isn't I guess he is suggesting a VS4c grade.

I'd say that the layback moves where the flake first goes right and up are the technical crux, and are 5a. Of course you're going for those off a good ledge, whereas if you arrive near the top totally wasted and pumped (which is quite likely!), that could make the top feel harder than it is.

And even if it were 4c it could still be HVS 4c (HVS for sustained strenuosity), though I'd give it HVS 5a, and fairly stiff in the grade.
wilkesley - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to wilkesley)
> [...]
>
> Well, the Rasp is very like RU but overhanging by at least 20 degrees, so it's at least two full adjectival grades harder. I was very proud of being able to second it just, to within about six inches of the top (i.e the end of the traverse to the right) ... with a very tight rope. It all went wrong for me at the top because Kath (Pyke) couldn't of course give me a tight rope on the traverse (pulling in wrong direction). Didn't mind failing a bit.

Can't say I have ever managed to get up it "properly". I did actually get to the top sometime in the 1980's. I pointed a young Andy Cave at it and unfortunately for me he seemed to have no trouble with it, which meant I had to follow. I had the same trouble as you at the top. Can't remember exactly how I got up, but it must have involved some sort of aid. Definitely not my sort of route.
rurp - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs: Never done the left hand finish. If it was just me grading it it would be hvs 5c for the direct finish.

Like I said to gordon or someone I'm going back to see if i just threw myself at it as a bellyflop when i could have just done a simple 5a mantleshelf.

In the real world only two or three blokes thought it was anything but HVS5a so that grade is fair.

I just wondered if because of its history and joe b popping up it in 5 secs wearing wellies and some washing line round his neck or whatever,everyone was colluding with each other saying 'oh yeh benchmark hvs 5a' when they had fallen, got pumped,scraped their way up it using their lips......

For the most part seems not!
rurp - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> [...]
>
> I'd say that the layback moves where the flake first goes right and up are the technical crux, and are 5a. Of course you're going for those off a good ledge, whereas if you arrive near the top totally wasted and pumped (which is quite likely!), that could make the top feel harder than it is.
>
> And even if it were 4c it could still be HVS 4c (HVS for sustained strenuosity), though I'd give it HVS 5a, and fairly stiff in the grade.

Blimey, that move right wasn't on the same planet to the top out for me! I guess we are all different but you seem closer to the mainstream than me!
In reply to Coel Hellier:

In reply to Coel Hellier:
>
> I'd say that the layback moves where the flake first goes right and up are the technical crux, and are 5a. Of course you're going for those off a good ledge, whereas if you arrive near the top totally wasted and pumped (which is quite likely!), that could make the top feel harder than it is.
>

Agreed, the crux for most is the powerful move round the nose where the footholds are sketchy and a forceful approach is needed.

Chris
Coel Hellier - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Of course those smart-arses who breeze Right Unconquerable can then run along and try the sloping top-out to The Watch Tower, also (supposedly) HVS, but which I thought utterly ludicrous at that grade.
jon on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to rurp)
> [...]
>
> Go on then, given a free-hand, what grade would you like us to give it next time round?

Come on Chris, bite the bullet. Give it VS. You know you want to!
Jon Stewart - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to nikhoward:
> (In reply to rurp)
>
> when i first climbed it in 95 I was a steady on sight E2 leader and I would say one of the hardest work outs I had ever had on a route (complete with bellyflop)

Someone has a knack for choosing non-strenuous E2s it seems ;)
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Check out my comment from three years ago:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=51379



Chris
Dave Garnett - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
> Good to know I am one end of the crazy english trad debate but there are nutters at the other end too!

Doesn't it just all depend on what you are used to? I largely learnt to climb on grit and so a bit of jamming, a bit of laybacking and a mantelshelf was pretty much par for the course at VS/HVS.

I'm as capable of ignominious failure on grit HVS as anyone (especially recently!) but I've never had a problem with RU - straightforward at HVS. It's exactly what it looks like, no unpleasant surprises.

But then I've never had a problem with Goliath's Groove at VS either; solid jams, no drama.
Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I remember my brother John describing seeing Bernard Newman making light work of it as an onsight lead in about 1970, while he was at Leeds University. Apparently when he got to the final moves (with a lot of banter all the way) he just shouted 'Western roll!' and kind of threw himself sideways on to the top.
John Stainforth - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Gosh, Gordon, you do have an extraordinary memory! Even I can't remember that.
rurp - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to John Stainforth: photographic memory, useful in his line of work!
Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to John Stainforth:

The reason the story stuck so vividly in my mind was the expression 'Western roll'. I didn't really know what it meant then, and I don't now :)
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It is an old fashioned (pre Fosbury-Flop) high-jump technique I believe.


Chris
Gordon Stainforth - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Well, I certainly remember that gist of the story was that it was very dynamic.
Parrys_apprentice - on 20 Aug 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fOEEDUZrL0

amazing where youtube can get you from Fawcett.

must be German for unconquerable.

I bet it took him longer to get down again.
Pekkie - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> 'It is an old fashioned (pre Fosbury-Flop) high-jump technique I believe.'

With Western Roll you went over on your side. You might be thinking of the Straddle in which you went over on your belly - which is certainly how I finished Right Unconquerable. Back in the old days (yawn...) when you jumped into sand pits, the Western Roll was the safest technique as with the Straddle you landed on your side and back. Anything over about 6 feet and you were taking your life in your hands. Amazingly, you can see films on You Tube of high jumpers, including Valery Brumel, jumping heights of well over 7 feet and landing in sand. Even pole vauters doing over 15 feet. They brought in pits of foam rubber which made it a lot safer but it wasn't until around 1968 that they brought in inflatable landing beds that made the fosbury flop possible. They were well hard in the old days.

Any similarities to grizzled climbing old timers going on about pampered youth with their landing mats, chalk and friends?
>
>
>
Gordon Stainforth - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

Thanks for 'sort of' explaining it. Here's a video I've found on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko3-HYbszgo
Jonny2vests - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Parrys_apprentice:

That was posted earlier on. You realise Fawcett is belaying yeah? I though Birtles didn't exactly float up it either.
DaveAtkinson - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

Isn't Geoff Birtles photographed leading RU in Hard rock? Rope tied round the waste, no runners and the belayer just holding the rope in one hand?

Thats old school.

Just goes to show one day your soloing in style the next your flopping about like a whale.
Gordon Stainforth - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

I think we should remind ourselves of Joe Brown on these very moves on the first ascent in spring 1949, with NO runners and Woolworth plimsolls. Photo: the late Ernest Phillips:

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/JB_topRU_1949_EP.jpg
Al Randall on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I did it in the same style, no runners and Woollies plimsolls in about 1965 but not as easily as Joe. It just goes to show that gear had not progressed a great deal in 15 years.

Al
Pekkie - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Sorry, but that video is wrong. They are using the straddle ie going over on the belly. This the Western Roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtDdDmyO5jg

This is the straddle c1960. Note foam rubber landing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xHw-wh3fI4
jon on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

There must have been loads of shoulder injuries with that western roll.
Gordon Stainforth - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Randall:

Hats off to you. The exact truth is that done like that it would be at least E2 by modern standards. When I first started climbing there, in the very late 60s, the first commercial nuts were just starting to come in, but many/most of the routes were still very poorly protected. E.g Black Slab/Hargreaves Original Route (no gear, and several fatalities).

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
>
> Hats off to you. The exact truth is that done like that it would be at least E2 by modern standards.

That suggests you have a basic misunderstanding of the UK grading system which surprises me. Why would unprotected 5a moves be graded 5b?


Chris

jon on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Have I missed something Chris? Where did the 5b come from?
Simon Caldwell - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Surely 5a moves 15m above a guaranteed ground fall would normally be E2?
Gordon Stainforth - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> That suggests you have a basic misunderstanding of the UK grading system which surprises me. Why would unprotected 5a moves be graded 5b?

Because I believe that RU in plimsolls would have been 5b technically. I.e with far less sticky rubber, and edges that rolled on the foot. I know, because all my early climbing was done in green flash tennis shoes, which at least had real rubber rather than crepe soles.
Gordon Stainforth - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

PS. Of course Joe's plimsolls had real rubber too.

So, Right Unconquerable in 1949 with modern grading would have been somewhere between E2 5a and E3 5b. IMHO.
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> Have I missed something Chris? Where did the 5b come from?

Good question, something has changed or I have having delusions, probably the latter!


Chris
Gordon Stainforth - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

OK, what I meant was that it would have been a bit harder than the present 5a. But if we forget that at the moment, and say that Right Unconquerable would have been E2 5a in the early 1950s with no protection, then Great Slab at Froggatt, a full technical grade harder, would have been E3 5b (again, arguably 5b+ in plimsolls). Er ... then we notice that Great Slab is still given that very same grade, because it still has no protection ...
rurp - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp: Blimey I have spawned a monster, a thread that won't die...Its like the hydra, you cut off one head and it grows two more.

Its another tuesday so been out again up to the peak, there is this climb and the grade is totally wrong and and ......





only joking!
Postmanpat on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
> I know, because all my early climbing was done in green flash tennis shoes, which at least had real rubber rather than crepe soles.

But green flash soles were too thick to feel what was really going on. Plimsolls may not have had the rubber but you could feel the holds better.

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abseil on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> I think we should remind ourselves of Joe Brown on these very moves...

Great photo, thanks for that.
Gordon Stainforth - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Postmanpat:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> But green flash soles were too thick to feel what was really going on. Plimsolls may not have had the rubber but you could feel the holds better.

Yes, there most be some truth in that, though we wore the Green Flash shoes very tight. Strangely, they stopped making Woolworth plimsolls (with black rubber soles) some time in the mid 60s - or, at least, we couldn't get them in Hertfordshire. We also used school running shoes with big flat rubber studs when we first climbed at Harrisons.

BTW, Joe Brown himself was slightly puzzled as to exactly what he was wearing on his feet in 1949, when I showed him the complete set of Ernie Phillips' shots of him making the first ascents of Left and Right Unconquerable - he didn't think the edges looked quite right to be Woolworth's plimsolls.

Al Evans on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to John Stainforth)
>
> The reason the story stuck so vividly in my mind was the expression 'Western roll'. I didn't really know what it meant then, and I don't now :)

Western Roll was the standard high jump procedure then, it was what was taught at School.
Gordon Stainforth - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

Yes, that's ringing very slight bell with me. But I was absolutely useless at jumping.
bill briggs1 - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I had a spell of climbing in tight white plimsoles ( no rand ) on grit to save wear and tear on the EBs in the 70s. They were great, on most grit routes you are putting your toe in a break or pressing flat on a lay away move.
As for the Right Unconquerable plimsoles are fine , its breaks or lay aways.
Of my 200+ solos of RU in the last 40 years at least 20 would have been in plimsoles.
As for the finish its two little holds and a step up.

Although looking back on my first lead of RU I think the finish was a combination of crawl, western roll and friction.
Al Randall on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to bill briggs1: I tried to solo it many years ago, after finding it a straightforward lead previously, but ended up asking my son to rush around with a rope as I couldn't do the top move. Very embarrassing and needless to say my son won't let me forget it. Once the rope was round me I of course found the tiny "dinks" that can make all the difference. They had filled up with sand and I had forgotten about them.

Al
bill briggs1 - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Al Randall:

Hi Al, I think you did the right thing getting the rope , its a fatal fall from there. joe Brown was the man , solo first ascent 60+ years ago . Hope you are well, hope to see you when you are in Wales.
Al Randall on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to bill briggs1: Hi Bill. Yes I'm well but not getting out much. Cheltenham is not the easiest of places to find partners and the weathers been crap so I'm tending to only get any climbing done on CC meets. Mind you I'm off to the Ariege in 3 weeks so I'm really looking forward to that.

Al
GeoffRadcliffe - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to bill briggs1: Good stuff Bill. I can remember when it seemed that on most summer evenings, there were lots of people out soloing routes of HVS and E1. Not in plimsolls though!
Phil Kelly - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to Postmanpat)
> [...]
>
> BTW, Joe Brown himself was slightly puzzled as to exactly what he was wearing on his feet in 1949, when I showed him the complete set of Ernie Phillips' shots of him making the first ascents of Left and Right Unconquerable - he didn't think the edges looked quite right to be Woolworth's plimsolls.

There's 2 shots in that sequence that seem to show that Joe wasn't in plimsolls but had boots on, but they don't seem to be nailed.

One shot of him on the left clearly shows a high ankle, with socks ruffled up above, and there's a good shot of the that shows the boots again, and with what looks like a heel.

Phil

johncook - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to bill briggs1: Hi Bill Were these solos before or after you got your specs and found out how far away the ground could become?
Gordon Stainforth - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Phil Kelly:

Yes, I have the whole sequence of shots. That was exactly what puzzled Joe. But he said they definitely weren't boots (because the only ones he had were nailed). The ankle is not that high (see picture I attached above, on the final moves of the RU), but there does appear to be some kind of heel.
bill briggs1 - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to johncook:

After the specs , just remember , never look down and never get out of the boat.
telemark - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Baseball boots (plimsolls with high ankles)? Were they around in the late 40's?
Gordon Stainforth - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to telemark:

I've done an extensive Google, but can't find a picture of anything like the plimsolls/boots Joe was wearing
Duncan Bourne - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:
I love RU for that finale. Their you are romping and laybacking up the crack then you hit the top and WHOOAH! Where did that finish come from!!
rurp - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: ?5a
a lakeland climber on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

I've led it, seconded it and soloed it: HVS 5a. Miles easier than the left. Never done Little.

ALC
Wiley Coyote - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

The first time I led it I did not bother looking at the guide as it was such an obvious line and just aped my way up the flake before following it all the way left at the top and out through the easy gap. Jeez, the barracking I got for that but it seemed the natural line.

I've redeemed myself since.
rurp - on 23 Aug 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
> (In reply to rurp)
> I love RU for that finale. Their you are romping and laybacking up the crack then you hit the top and WHOOAH! Where did that finish come from!!

Now duncan, remember the hard move is at the bottom of the crack under the overhang moving right! the top is easy. the top is easy. repeat it enough times and you will see the true way.

You are in danger of being labelled a delusional like me. Men in white coats and all that
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Offwidth - on 23 Aug 2012
In reply to rurp:

Since when was a 4c semi-mantel that takes some care to spot "easy". As a solo it would certainly be the crux of the climb for most, even if you got it right. Yet the finish is not exceptionally hard for a HVS according to thousands of others who have gone before you. However, it is awkward and thought provoking and adds spice and more HVS character to the climb. Why not go back and do it again as you seem to be generating a lot of hot air for someone who seems to have got it wrong or followed a harder non-line between the normal exits (yes the left hand-exit is an acceptable finish).

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