/ Man abandons dog on mountain, strangers hike up to rescue it

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dale1968 - on 17 Aug 2012
muppetfilter - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968: Crag swag if ever I heard it :0)
stujamo - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968: Says he wants her back....Errr, don't think so
stonemaster - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to stujamo: Agreed. Should be charged under animal welfare regulations.
Tim Chappell - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to stujamo:

What a git.

On boulder-fields like the one this poor alsatian was abandoned on, dogs do get worn-out paws. This isn't the only case I've heard of. Surely a market there. Does anyone make approach boots for dogs?
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:

I would have stayed with my dog and taken my chances. Just couldn't comprehend leaving her.

Only one word for this man, and it starts with C and ends with T!
Dom Brown - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W.: I couldn't agree more. I'd leave a person before I left my dog. atleast a person stands a chance of fending for them selves.
stonemaster - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell: Yes, there was a thread a little while ago. Ruff wear as well as others.
Tim Chappell - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to stonemaster:

So crazy not to use them, then. And very unfair on the poor mutt.
Scarab9 - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:

totally agreeing with the guy being a **** and shouldn't get his dog back. I can sort of see in horrific life or death circumstances how someone could leave the dog, but then leaving it for 8 days? Not to mention personally I couldn't justify it but I know some could and can appreciate that view. But it certainly doesn't sound like it was a case of "it's me or the dog" so no excuse.

one bit I don't get - how did these guys see a picture of the dog abandoned before heading out? had others spotted her and left her or had the owner posted or had someone somehow got a shot on a zoom lens by luck ??
Tim Chappell - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scarab9:

I believe it's the yak route up a Colorado 14er in August, so there are plenty of punters about.
needvert on 17 Aug 2012
"He said he was hiking with the dog when her paws became injured, and with the storm approaching he said he tried to carry the dog down the mountain, but couldn’t so he left the dog behind and assumed she died."

Seems reasonable to me. Personally I'd wander back up when weather cleared, but perhaps his time/money judges were different.

We routinely execute pets when the medical bills are too much. Likewise, livestock when they are not profitable.

As a non-vegan, I've contributed to far more animal suffering.
SCC - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scarab9:

In the story it says a lone hiker had spotted the dog but been unable to get her off the mountain.

The owner has shown that he is incapable of /unwilling to look after the animal so shouldn't get her back.

I can understand leaving an animal in an emergency (not sure if this counts or not) but the first thing you'd do is to go back, surely? don't just "assume she'd died". What a pr!ck.

Si
stonemaster - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scarab9: the news report says someone else spotted it and took a pic but was not able to rescue it.
ceri - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968: I can see that you might need to leave your dog if you couldn't carry them down. I mean Joe Simpson was left behind, that sort of circumstance. However, I would wrap her in all my spare gear and come right back the next day to fetch her, not "assume she'd died" then ask the strangers who rescued her for her return!
Tim Chappell - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to needvert:
> >
> We routinely execute pets when the medical bills are too much. Likewise, livestock when they are not profitable.



I can see what you mean. I suppose a Texan would probably have whipped out his Glock and shot the dog :-)

Still, there are cases and cases. Killing/ abandoning the dog here seems like lazy indifference, not concern for the animal's well-being as in the vet cases you compare.

I think it's relevant too that the Alsatian was only up there in the first place because she trusted her owner. I think we can reasonably call abandoning her a betrayal of trust.

Human-animal ethics is a very interesting area...
Scomuir on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W.:
> (In reply to dale1968)
>
> Only one word for this man, and it starts with C and ends with T!

You think he should get a cat instead?

Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012

> We routinely execute pets when the medical bills are too much. Likewise, livestock when they are not profitable.

There is a big difference between giving a pet a lethal injection (thats pain free-ish), to abandoning a dog high up a mountain to suffer for 8 days.

dale1968 - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scomuir: would not trust him with a goldfish, and I wonder how quickly he would abandon another person..
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scomuir:

I wouldn't give this asshole a cockroach to look after.
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Scarab9 - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to SCC:
> (In reply to Scarab9)
>
> In the story it says a lone hiker had spotted the dog but been unable to get her off the mountain.
>

ah missed that bit, thanks.
Scarab9 - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to needvert:
> "He said he was hiking with the dog when her paws became injured, and with the storm approaching he said he tried to carry the dog down the mountain, but couldn’t so he left the dog behind and assumed she died."
>
> Seems reasonable to me. Personally I'd wander back up when weather cleared, but perhaps his time/money judges were different.
>
> We routinely execute pets when the medical bills are too much. Likewise, livestock when they are not profitable.
>
> As a non-vegan, I've contributed to far more animal suffering.

yeah you're totally right. hey as someone who eats meat (actually I don't but anyway) I've caused plenty of harm, I may just torture this donkey as it makes no difference.......



Ava Adore - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to needvert:
> "
>
> Seems reasonable to me. Personally I'd wander back up when weather cleared, but perhaps his time/money judges were different.
>
> We routinely execute pets when the medical bills are too much. Likewise, livestock when they are not profitable.
>
> As a non-vegan, I've contributed to far more animal suffering.



You think it's reasonable to leave an animal to suffer?? You bastard.
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scarab9:
> (In reply to needvert)
> [...]
>
> yeah you're totally right. hey as someone who eats meat (actually I don't but anyway) I've caused plenty of harm, I may just torture this donkey as it makes no difference.......

Or we could just torture needvert, he wont mind.
Scomuir on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W. & dale1968:
Completely agree, but maybe I should have added a :o) to my post?
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Scomuir:

ha! I knew what you meant, don't worry :-P
needvert on 17 Aug 2012
Lets look at it another way....

If in the hikers view it was a likely live ending storm (due to conditions and available equipment/skills/resilience), should he:

1. Die carrying a dog, that dies shortly after
2. Attempt to evac dog, judge it infeasible, cut losses and get himself out
3. Talk of torturing needvert on the internet

I'd really have to hear more of what he had to say to understand. One day someone may have to leave me to die to ensure the survival of the group.
needvert on 17 Aug 2012
(Not saying it's the case here, but I do find it interesting that for specific animals, people get quite emotive about their treatment. It tends to be extremely animal specific, primarily cats and dogs. A cage raised dog for meat is more likely to induce outrage than a cage raised hen for example...And lets not mention kittens!)
Tim Chappell - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to needvert:

We form relationships with dogs and cats, and that in itself makes a difference to their moral standing.
jkarran - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:

So from what I can see: A man leaves his injured dog behind high on a mountain to escape an impending storm. Assuming he couldn't carry the dog down alone which is a fairly reasonable assumption; What is the point in risking his life or that of rescuers in a futile gesture staying with the dog? What else is he supposed to do, call mountain rescue?

As for not going back: There's no information at all as to how reasonable that is. Maybe the storm was really bad and lasted for days, maybe the assumption the dog had died was quite reasonable. Maybe he couldn't go back up for it. Maybe he simply misjudged the strength of his dog. Maybe he's just a callous c**t. It's impossible to say on the strength of that story alone.

There's a lot of people getting very wound up and judgmental over a story that's rather short on facts.

jk
ceri - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to jkarran: If i left my dog i would firstly give her the best opportunity of survival: fashioning shelter, or a nest of clothes etc. Then i would make sure everyone knew a dog had been left on the mountain, just on the teeny tiny off-chance that she might still be alive. I would ask friends and strangersif they were going that way. Even if she was dead, maybe someone could let me know they had seen her body.
I know people whose pets have gone missing and they always say, they wish they could know either way what had happened. To just leave the dog then make no effort to find out whether she lived or died is callous.
JIMBO on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to jkarran: interesting nobody has mentioned "touching the void"... Man leaves man behind, etc
... I can see the film now, "pooching the void", "cliff-hounder" or "the elkhound sanction"
Tim Chappell - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to jkarran:

As far as I understand it, the reason he had to abandon the dog is because the dog couldn't walk because he hadn't protected the dog's paws from the wearing effect of the rough ground.

If my understanding of this point is correct, then I think that's enough facts to form a basis for being judgemental, don't you?
ceri - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to JIMBO: I did!
JIMBO on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to ceri: missed that... Got bored with all the mut-lovin that I must have skipped over it.
Kemics - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:

also the fact she survived 8 days means the conditions can't have been THAT bad.

Also, he needs to eat his weatabix, a grown man should be able to carry an Alsatian. Hard work, but if it was that or abandoning my dog, i's mtfu everytime.
stujamo - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to needvert: As humans we make our own choices about what we do, that's how it seems to me. I'm not a dog owner, but if we have pets, we have a responsibility for them, I would imagine. Surely that would include not placing them potentially in harms way? And possibly placing oneself in harms way attempting to save the situation? From what I read (in the Times) the man sounds like a complete buffoon!
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to jkarran:


Abandoning the dog to save your own life - I can understand that.
Abandoning the dog to save your own life and then not doing anything at all afterwards - thats something I just can't understand.

As Ceri says, there were a number of things he could/should have done after he left her. The fact that he didn't do anything at all is what really gets to me. If the weather was good enough for a hiker to be on the mountain to take a photo of the dog then surely it was good enough for the owner to make a trip back there?

If i thought my dog was %100 going to die and there was nothing I could do for her, I'd probably have ended it for her before leaving her alone. (Though I understand not everyone would be capable of this, physically or emotionally.)
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to dale1968)
>
> also the fact she survived 8 days means the conditions can't have been THAT bad.

Thats my thinking too.

jkarran - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to ceri:

Do we know he didn't do these things?
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jkarran - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W.:

> Abandoning the dog to save your own life and then not doing anything at all afterwards - thats something I just can't understand.

It's also something you are assuming. There are no details whatsoever in that story as to what did or didn't happen following him leaving the dog. You're assuming.

> As Ceri says, there were a number of things he could/should have done after he left her. The fact that he didn't do anything at all is what really gets to me. If the weather was good enough for a hiker to be on the mountain to take a photo of the dog then surely it was good enough for the owner to make a trip back there?

Unless for example he lives out of state and has a job to get back to so he can pay his mortgage and feed his family or any one of a thousand and one other perfectly reasonable reasons why someone might be unable to go back?

> If i thought my dog was %100 going to die and there was nothing I could do for her, I'd probably have ended it for her before leaving her alone. (Though I understand not everyone would be capable of this, physically or emotionally.)

I'm not sure what this rather odd speculation adds.
jk
jkarran - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Kemics:

I'm sure you would. It is however a lot easier to say than to actually do while tired, alone and on rough ground with the weather coming in.

jk
Blue Straggler - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Kemics)
>
> I'm sure you would. It is however a lot easier to say than to actually do while tired, alone and on rough ground with the weather coming in.
>
> jk

Shush you. All these people have vast experience of carrying large dogs around at 13,000 feet in a snowstorm.

jkarran - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell:

> As far as I understand it, the reason he had to abandon the dog is because the dog couldn't walk because he hadn't protected the dog's paws from the wearing effect of the rough ground.
> If my understanding of this point is correct, then I think that's enough facts to form a basis for being judgemental, don't you?

And what if the dog had completed dozens of similar walks without problems before?

No, I don't think the story alone is any justification for the self righteous indignation and posturing characterising this thread.

Anyway, I've wasted enough words. As you were, on with the cyber-lynching
jk
Kyle Warlow - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to jkarran:

Ok, your are right, we have assumed the worst of him. I love dogs (more than people!) and this story provoked emotions in me I guess.

Bit more info I found here, (Sorry, its from the Mail!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2189640/Canine-custody-battle-Hiker-climbed-13-000ft-rescue-...

So he did make an effort when down to let a few people know, fair enough. Then he just assumed that she had died. Im sorry but I couldn't do that. If I lived out of state I'd have just stayed around for the next weather window. Camped in my car, a bush, anything. If I had work commitments I'd have phoned in sick, taken unpaid leave, anything. Most reasonable bosses would understand I think. If I had family commitments.....Im sure they'd understand If I cancelled.

My mind just can't comprehend not going back at the first possible opportunity, even if there was only the smallest chance she had survived. It'd be worth it on the smallest chance that you could give food and water, maybe some form of shelter, until a rescue could be organised. Even just to find a body.


ceri - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W.: "He said that in the days after he left her, he searched the internet for 'dog found on Bierstadt' every days, but didn't find anything." But he didn't post on every board about the mountain asking for help. The people who found him did.
"'My wife and I had to abandon her as well. When we found her on Saturday we knew that we would be unable to bring her out ourselves and with extremely heavy hearts we left her on a rock knowing that she may die,' Mr Washburn said.
Despite being forced to abandon her, we came back for her.'


John Rushby - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:

I once rescued a dog in winter that was crag fast on the top out of the snow slope on Helvellyn. Seems dogs don't do cornices.

The slope was creaky as f*ck but me and my mate managed to traverse across and rescue the shitting shivering thing.

Took him down to the car park at Patterdale. The owner approached us, took him of the pair of us and said "He'd have found his own way down".

Er, no, you might be a climber but your dog wasn't - he was literally soiling hiself and was a gibbering wreck.

If you climbed in the Lakes, with a dog and drove a red Escort van in the mid 90's then that's you, you cock.
Trangia - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to John Rushby:

I had a similar experience rescuing Labrador in the Mamores. We had to make a make shift harness for him out of ropes. The problem with dogs is that they can climb, but they don't have the nouse to go down backwards using their claws like crampons. They always try to go head first, and of course get no purchase, so they panic
John Rushby - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Trangia:

dogs !dogs! sounds like me on Stirling Bridge
winhill - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Tim Chappell:
> (In reply to needvert)
>
> We form relationships with dogs and cats, and that in itself makes a difference to their moral standing.

So if a livestock breeder befriends a pig or cow or trout in their care, it saves them from the dinner plate?
John Rushby - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to winhill:

Myself and FH's brother in law once befriended a pheasant on the way to a winter climb on Jogebar.

It said hello to the front end of my 1 litre nova.

Tasted niiiice

the phaesant, not the Nova.
Enty - on 17 Aug 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to jkarran)
> [...]
>
> Shush you. All these people have vast experience of carrying large dogs around at 13,000 feet in a snowstorm.

Like ^^^

E
marsbar - on 18 Aug 2012
ceri - on 18 Aug 2012
In reply to winhill:
>
> So if a livestock breeder befriends a pig or cow or trout in their care, it saves them from the dinner plate?

Sometimes: I know of farmers who have kept animals: a cow who was past her milking years, a pig with a wonky leg, a meat chicken who joined the laying flock... I suppose it depends how you define "befriends". A lot of farmers will have favourites, but they always know that animal is going for meat, so wouldn't get too attached. They are unlikely to build the same relationship they would with a pet, or even a working animal such as a sheepdog, or working horse.

ceri - on 18 Aug 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler:
>
> Shush you. All these people have vast experience of carrying large dogs around at 13,000 feet in a snowstorm.

Well I've never done it, but the complete strangers who found the dog managed to organise it via the internet. Shame the owner didn't bother.

Wainers44 - on 18 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968: I just thought that its interesting that the guy chooses to be there and takes the dog (ie dog had no choice but to go). Guy decides going gets tough so leaves dog who was lucky not to die. With roles reversed, with the guy in trouble and in worse conditions the dog almost certainly would have stayed out of loyalty and possibly perished along with the guy?
Arent we so much better than dogs!
stroppygob - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968: Hang the b@st@rd.
stonemaster - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to stroppygob: or, perhaps send him to work in a home for abandoned dogs for a suitable period of time.
Rigid Raider - on 19 Aug 2012
Why is it that in the USA people hike whereas here they walk?
dale1968 - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Wainers44: Integrity.... not much of it about
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ericoides - on 19 Aug 2012
In reply to Rigid Raider:

They had Eisenhower, we had Auchinleck.
Blue Straggler - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to ceri:
> the complete strangers who found the dog managed to organise it via the internet.


Solo and fatigued in a snowstorm?
Flinticus - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:
For 8 days?

You don't leave until you've exhausted all opportunity of either finding the dog alive or its body.

I walk alone with my dog most of the time and this is something I've had to consider (I even went to the gym & practiced weights set at my dog's body weight, 26kg!). If I couldn't get him down all the way, I would at least get him to some sheltered spot, use my storm shelter to create something for him & get back, with help if needed, as soon as possible.
dissonance - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Solo and fatigued in a snowstorm?

having a team and a rucksack big enough to carry the dog easily would make a difference i think.
Difficult question though around abandoning an animal reliant on you, in this case i would go for he definitely lost the right to keep the dog to those who went up and got it.
Timmd on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> (In reply to ceri)
> [...]

> Solo and fatigued in a snowstorm?

I think it's the fact he (apparently) didn't go back up to see if his dog had died or try again to get her down which is irking people, and scanned the internet for news of a dead dog.

A Longleat Boulderer - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W.:

> Only one word for this man, and it starts with C and ends with T!

Cat?
Tom V - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:

There are times when it makes cruel sense to let the dog go.
Every year misguided but well intentioned people drown trying to save their dogs.
Kyle Warlow - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Scomuir (post at 12.20) beat you to that one I'm afraid. Nice try though.
Kyle Warlow - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Tom V:

Its not really an issue that he left it. That can be justified. The issue is that he didn't try hard enough to recover the dog afterwards, dead or alive.
A Longleat Boulderer - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to K.W.:

Haha damn! Meow I know! Next time i'll be faster, it'll be purrfect.
Al Evans on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer: All the times I have been in the mountains with one of my dogs it always seemed more likely that they could leave me than I could leave them, however none of them ever did.
purplemonkeyelephant - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968:

If you wouldn't immediately try and mount a rescue for your dog then you simply don't deserve them.
mgco3 - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to dale1968: Unbelievable!! The wife and kids , I would have left . The dog, I would have carried it barefoot across broken glass to get it to safety. I hope someday that the owner gets stranded up a mountain and left to suffer.

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