UKC

Recently in a post about belaying, someone linked to the following blog post.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb//qc-lab-autoblock-...

When I learned with an instructor, he showed us various methods for making a belay. One being making a big fat knot and belaying from the anchor point rather than from our harness. Another belaying from the harness as per usual.

At the time i thought that the first method was good as it meant the force of a fall would go through the anchor and not through me (ie not pull me over the edge). Having climbed a few routes myself now, i realise that it is more time consuming this way and might not be convenient.

Reading the blog post, the writer described that he belayed from his harness but sent the rope back up through the anchor to redirect the force so not to be pulled off the edge.

Quoting from it ...

When using a standard belay device to bring up a second, I always belay off my harness’ belay loop, with the rope running through the anchor as a directional—that way if the seconding climber were to fall, the load is on the anchor. Some people belay off the harness straight down to the climber, but in the case of a fall, the belayer is now being yanked off the ledge and being pulled in two directions (the belayer is tied off to the anchor, but the pull from the fallen climber is downwards).

Does anyone do this regularly? I haven't seen anyone do this or seen it mentioned by anyone. It sounds like its worth doing if you are climbing with someone that you think might fall off?
Any problems I should be aware of?

In reply to sianabanana:

skim read a bit so apologies if i've missed point

you shouldnt be pulled anywhere if second falls- ideally anchor, you and second are in line so no sideways pull.

and there should be no slack in system between you and anchor, so you should not be pulled over edge. if there is, and you can be, you will shock load anchors increasing chance of them failing

the force of any fall should ideally be absorbed by you in the way you belay, and in friction between you and the ground, again protecting the anchor points.

of course the anchors may be 100% bombproof, and sometimes eg scrambling you may belay directly off the anchor, but in general i'd have thought it good practice to belay indirectly protecting anchors so that if you are faced with less than ideal options for building a belay but no choice in the matter, eg on a multipitch route, you are used to this

again, if i've totally missed the point, sorry- if i'm on topic, hope its helpful...

cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I'm not really talking about sideways pull and I know not to have any slack in the system but obviously there is some give in the rope etc so if the belay is loaded you do move forward a bit.

Thanks for the response though.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Interesting, I look at it the other way round. I would only belay with the device attached to my harness if I thought the belay was poor or if I could not get into the optimum, comfortable position e.g. if the attachment point was too low. I use a direct belay whenever the opportunity presents itself which is probably about 80% of the time these days. The disadvantage of course is that you need the appropriate device.

To the OP: If you clip the krab into the tie in loops rather than the belay loop it does make it slightly easier to take most of the weight off your body in the event of a fall.

Al

In reply to sianabanana:

you shouldnt move much- there should be some tension in the system already so any subsequent rope stretch is minimised. bracing parts of your anatomy on convenient protrusions helps keep you in place too...

seems to work for me, even belaying my considerably larger little brother i've never been pulled over the edge

sorry again if im telling you things you already know..!

cheers
gregor

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
Hi Al, I have a auto bloc belay device but have yet to climb a route where i had anchors high enough to do this. Maybe im not looking hard enough.

When you say clip the krab in to the tie in loops rather than the belay loop do you mean clip it in to the rope loop (ie where you have tied in) rather than the belay loop? How does that make a difference ? Sorry if im missing something obvious?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

"The disadvantage of course is that you need the appropriate device. "

Or an Italian hitch, though I guess not if you like your ropes

Neil

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:


interesting Al, and you've got masses more experience than me, so i'm in no position to argue. i guess its just something i've picked up along the way to be mistrustful of direct belays- i usually want a big sling round a really solid boulder or spike for one...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Thanks for the response I haven't actually been pulled over the edge, but i think when you feel that force you try to hold it with your body rather than letting the anchor bear the load.

Going back to the original post, I guess no one does what this chap was talking about?

In reply to sianabanana:


easier to escape the system if needed (eg rescue situation)i think

(not that i've had to try it in anger)


cheers
g

In reply to sianabanana: Yes the loop that is formed by tying in. This tends to be slightly bigger than the belay loop and is usually easier to position so that a direct line is created from the anchor point to the second. In some situations there can be virtually no weight on the belayer. I'm not however suggesting making that loop bigger specifically to accommodate this. It's hard to describe but if you try it it will become apparent.

I have done what is described in the past and before I knew about direct belays but if you can do that you can probably use a direct so I do.

Al

In reply to sianabanana:

It's sometimes convenient because of the way you're sitting/standing/facing to have the 2nds rope coming down to you at the stance and it can be a bit nicer to hold a fall like this too. Clipping a runner to the equalised point of the belay is one pretty good option. It wouldn't work well for me because of how I prefer to rig my ropes and I think it could end up a little cluttered. Putting a bomber runner low in the next pitch and running the 2nds rope through that is another option but it's worth considering what would happen if it failed while the 2nd was low down or close to a ledge.

Generally it's best to keep things nice and simple.
jk

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:

Ok im with you. I usually clip in to both the rope loops and my belay loop but may try that next time i have someone who may rest or fall.

In reply to sianabanana:

Directional anchors can be useful at times, not just to remove the load point from your harness. You an use them to protect seconds more effectively, perhaps protecting the last part of a traverse with a high runner.

They tend to increase friction a lot though, and like James says, you need to be really confident about its quality. The yanks like doing it, but they often have bolted belays and perhaps a bolt placed specifically as a directional.

In reply to sianabanana:


I've done it a couple times (although I'm not all that experienced) as it worked out more convenient.

However, if I'm right it doubles the force applied to your anchor.

If you're belaying in line, ie. anchor - belayer - climber. Then if the climber falls all of the force is transferred to the anchor (assuming the belayer absorbs none despite his best efforts)

However if the rope is going from the belayer to the anchor and back down to the climber, then if the climber falls the belayer is actively having to catch him (think top roping at the wall, when climber falls down belayer gets pulled up) so now the anchor is dealing with the force of the climber falling from one end of the rope, and the force of the belayer pulling on the other end.

I think that makes sense anyway

In reply to sianabanana:

The direct belay off anchors works well. Either a stitch plate and the rope running through the anchor(s) or an auto locking device attached to the anchors.

I use it mostly if:
1) anchors are in the correct location relative to me - multipitch sport this is the case quite frequently.
2) If I expect the 2nd to need assistance, as a pully is easy to set up with this configuration.
3) If the 2nd might weight the rope for a long time - just for my comfort.

It is a rare option on single pitches/top pitches due to anchor locations.
Double ropes can be a pain with it too.

If you multipitch sport in europe or elsewhere, it's definitly a good method to know.

In reply to ledifer:

Forces
- Inline belay least force on anchor ie less than the force of the fall.(belayer reduces load on anchors due to their bum on the ground etc)

- direct belay force of falling climber, dependant on how hanging the stance is, plus a bit.

- Rope through anchor to harness with hanging belayer is the greatest force option.

Question - if the anchors are that poor, would you hanging belay/belay on them anyway?

In reply to Kevster:

Agree, but I would add:

4) The anchors are unquestionably bomber.

In reply to Kevster:


Well I do try to make my anchors as good as possible. But also try to avoid testing them to failure! In the same way that you try to give a dynamic belay or avoid commando style abseiling.

Using a reverso style belay device directly on the anchor (as opposed to rope through anchor) doesn't add any extra force onto the anchor, the belayer is only holding the rope down to ensure the device is locked off.

In reply to ledifer:

Interesting point! An Italian hitch of course would induce the pulley effect I guess?