/ Ukraine Death Cams

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GavinOneill - on 24 Aug 2012
Have one of these Ukraine Gear4rocks cams rip on me today. The alloy actually deformed on one of the lobes and the thing just sprang out. Wasn't a big load, less than a 1m fall, had a dmm dragon Below so didn't deck it.

Anyone had any experience of this gear ? It looks like something out of a Christmas cracker ! :)
Wonko The Sane - on 24 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: I'm going to ask the obvious question here. Why did you trust your life to a piece of kit which looked like it came out of a Christmas cracker?!

When I bought my kit I looked at all the cheap stuff available for around six seconds and thought ' well it MIGHT be fine'

That was enough to make me not buy it.
thommi - on 24 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: with all due respect, I have to ask, is this a true story?
GavinOneill - on 24 Aug 2012
In reply to Wonko The Sane: It wasn't my gear, went up to finish a lead off for someone. But yeah fair point should of backed it up with a real cam.
GavinOneill - on 24 Aug 2012
In reply to thommi: Why does it seem far-fetched to you thommi ? :)
thommi - on 24 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: kind of. When you say 'real cam I'm sure what you mean. I've climbed on some, again like you they were a friends and to be fair although they are not the not the prettiest bits of kit, they seen perfectly functional to me (from an engineering point of view). It's not that I don't believe it so to speak but it sounds unlikely. Could you post some pics of the deformation maybe? Id be interested to see it. Like I said, I've climbed above these cans and to be honest didn't feel uncomfortable in the slightest (compared to if I was above a branded, name brand cam). Cheers, tom.
thommi - on 24 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: please read NOT sure. Stupid phone. :-)
GavinOneill - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to thommi: Yeah I'll try and get a picture sorted Tom no worries. The Ukraine cams are not CE mark Compliant I knew this before hand. On the website it did say they were waiting for the paper work to get sorted..that kind of story. The cams do look like they could do the job but the alloy used is very poor quality compared to a dragon or camalot. After viewing the cheap gear rip as I was falling past it only to be saved by my trusted dmm cam I think I'll stick to using my own kit from now on..but that's just my opinion. After all you only get to make a few little mistakes in this game before someone gets hurt.
Timmd on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill:Thanks for posting, there's nothing like real world experience, have wondered a little bit about making my own offset cams by taking appart Gear4rocks cams. Has put a end to my wondering somewhat.
James90 - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill:

Gear4rocks cams have been discussed a fair bit on UKC, but this is the first i've heared about them failing.

If you look at the ebay listings for there cams they assert that they do have CE certification, but personally i wouldnt climb with them unless they were UIAA aproved.
jon on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill:
> (In reply to thommi) Yeah I'll try and get a picture sorted Tom no worries. The Ukraine cams are not CE mark Compliant I knew this before hand.

I just googled them and found this:

<< We are pleased to announce that the gear4rocks links cams have passed CE certification >>
Eric9Points - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to jon:

Does anyone know what CE certification actually guarantees?

Some quality systems just ensure that what is produced is of consistent quality, ie. it may be rubbish but it will be consistently rubbish.
James90 - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to Eric9Points:
quoting SATRA website:

CE marking of most types of PPE can only be carried out by a Notified Body such as SATRA. The process involves checking that the product meets the appropriate safety and performance standards and that technical files and user information are correct. Where appropriate, we also ensure that procedures are in place for on-going checks of performance and quality.




Mike Stretford - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: I have seen this happen to other makes of cam,and I can see the point of these from a Ukranian climbers point of view but...

I don't see why anyone in the UK would buy them. Shop around and you can get deals from UK shops at similar prices without the hassle of having to import.
deepsoup - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to James90:
> CE marking of most types of PPE can only be carried out by a Notified Body such as SATRA.

Is (recreational) climbing gear treated as PPE? I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect not.
James90 - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to deepsoup:
my understanding was that it was as have seen reference to PPE multiple times when reading on the subject of safety marks, although i could be wrong.

for example of rockrun.com:

Safety Ratings & Standards
There are well enforced European safety standards for climbing equipment manufacture and distribution – PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) standards have been a legal requirement in Europe since the 1980’s. Equipment that satisfies these ratings (all the equipment on sale on our website) will be marked with a “CE” (Conformite Europeene) stamp. This shows that the equipment conforms to all the relevant European manufacturing and safety standard legislation.

ERU - on 25 Aug 2012
I had a small BD cam fail on a (low down) half metre fall. The cam stop ripped off. I sent it off to them and got a new one free :)
PMG on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: I think the best solution is to send the defective device for inspection:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/report-a-gear-failure

Strength of protective devices depends on materials used and may be impossible to judge without specialized knowledge and equipment.
GavinOneill - on 25 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill: The gear is shit end of. Here is part of a review from a guy that was sent a set of six to review, he's off his face;

"Also, one of the cams arrived with two of the lobes incorrectly positioned on the axle. The little stem thingy that prevents the lobes closing too far was the wrong way round. I notified gear4rocks about the problem and they said that they had inspected the cam twice before sending it to me, however unfortunately the cam was damaged in the post. "

The QC had been drinking vodka more like. These people are total clowns. Also the material specification is non-existent, it reads;

"All gear is manufactured from the highest quality materials and is assembled by qualified engineers under the supervision of experienced quality controllers"

I assume by this point they've let the pissed QC go?! Are they using A6082 alloy for the lobes like other manufactures or not ? Who knows maybe they just go round collecting scrap?

And the CE mark assurance is just a joke! ;

"All equipment has been tested by "STANDART" the Ukrainian National Scientific-Certification Center in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. Testing procedures are based on CE and UIAA standards. For Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to be legally sold in Ukraine it must be tested by "STANDART." Upon your request we will scan and email you the image of the original testing certificate (Russian language) "

I think the key word here is BASED on CE and UIAA standards, not actually tested to the exact standards. This equipment is a weak, cheap and nasty imitation of the real thing




James90 - on 25 Aug 2012
> I think the key word here is BASED on CE and UIAA standards, not actually tested to the exact standards. This equipment is a weak, cheap and nasty imitation of the real thing


As mentioned above when they started selling in the ukraine they were tested by STANDART. However since they have been accredited CE status, however rather than changing the origional writing they tend to tag it onto the end as a seperate bullet point.

I considered buying these cams for a long time... before deciding it wasnt worth the risk.
Dominion - on 26 Aug 2012
In reply to James90:

> As mentioned above when they started selling in the ukraine they were tested by STANDART. However since they have been accredited CE status

I note that the web-page for gear4rocks only says that their links cams have CE accreditation...

Can we assume that means that their other PPE doesn't have it?
PMG on 26 Aug 2012
In reply to Dominion:

> I note that the web-page for gear4rocks only says that their links cams have CE accreditation...
>
> Can we assume that means that their other PPE doesn't have it?

Yes.
dangunn23 - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill:
Any Photos yet??
muppetfilter - on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to deepsoup:

>
> Is (recreational) climbing gear treated as PPE? I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect not.

You suspect wrong ;0)

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-equipment-standards

"Almost all climbing hardware comes under the European Personal Protective Equipment Directive (PPE). This applies to equipment carried on the person which protects against falls from a height. To be allowed to sell an item of PPE in Europe a manufacturer must go to an independent ‘Approved Body’ and have their equipment tested against the appropriate standard and their quality control verified. Once approval is given the equipment can carry the CE mark and go on sale. "
stewieatb on 31 Aug 2012
In reply to GavinOneill:

Also, the CE certification is a joke compared to the UIAA approval tests, 3-sigma testing and ISO9001 standards. I seem to remember reading that to get a CE mark only three cams have to be strength tested!
GavinOneill - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to stewieatb: I've worked with ISO 9001 and it's full on stuff. After reading a review on the gear where a set had been sent out with one piece put together back to front and the companies response was ' it got damaged in the post ' it's clear to see that this manufacture is just a set of bumbling clowns with no idea of quality or good company ethos.

I say buy British ! :)
GavinOneill - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to dangunn23: I'm working on that one mate. Its a friends gear and not sure what he's done with it ? Hopefully not still climbing with it ! :)
jimtitt - on 01 Sep 2012
In reply to stewieatb:
> (In reply to GavinOneill)
>
> Also, the CE certification is a joke compared to the UIAA approval tests, 3-sigma testing and ISO9001 standards. I seem to remember reading that to get a CE mark only three cams have to be strength tested!

You are wildly mis-informed. To carry the UIAA Safety Label cams must first pass EN 12276, exactly the same as to be granted CE. The only additional requirement for the UIAA is that 50% of the stitching is in a contrasting colour to the tape (if tape is used). That is the only difference.
3 Sigma and ISO9001 are not a requirement for either CE or UIAA and certainly are not used by a number of companies as there are better or more suitable systems of quality control and quality management available.
andy.smythe - on 22 Sep 2012
In reply to Eric9Points: if you ask them to e-mail you a copy of the CE certificate the picture on it of what they tested is not what you buy.
mike kann - on 23 Sep 2012
In reply to stewieatb: Oh deary me. What a load of uninformed tripe. Do you a) know what a ce test is and what it signifies, b) understand what a 3 sigma rating is or c) have the faintest idea what Iso9001 is? From what you posted i would suggest no is the answer to all three of those.

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