/ CRB check to watch sports day?

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andy - on 30 Sep 2012
I don't usually give these sorts of stories much credence, as they usually turn out to be nonsense, but the quote from the school seems to suggest they've utterly lost leave of their senses:

http://tinyurl.com/9pmfnrc
highclimber - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy: The CRB thing is getting out of hand: nay, it IS out of hand.
they are a pointless and expensive waste of paper. besides the fact that you actually do not need one when in the presence of someone who is and aren't being left alone wit vulnerable and young persons!
marmot hunter - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:
Madness, absolute madness! Especially as the gates are probably wide open after school anyhow so any nutter can just walk in.
woolsack - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy: CRB check just means an individual hasn't been caught yet anyway
John Rushby - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:

It's a cover to prevent parents from spotting the CRB cleared teachers legging it to Calais with the kids.........
tim000 - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy: ive been CRB checked for my job and i work in 2/3 differant schools every week . only been asked to show my CRB check half a dozen times in over 2 years.
John1923 - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to John Rushby:

> It's a cover to prevent parents from spotting the CRB cleared teachers legging it to Calais with the kids.........

The uncomfortable truth is that most paedophiles and rapists never get caught, so never get a criminal record. At best CRB checks make jobsworths feel better. At worst they are used to "show that the school is taking reasonable steps" to avoid child abuse.

The school in question has had three child abuse scandals in the last 3 years!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_Bell_School#Child_safeguarding_problems

CRB checks are useful for key staff, but believing children when they talk about abuse, then reporting it to the police is FAR more important.
snoop6060 - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:

I hate tiny url.


andy - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to snoop6060:
> (In reply to andy)
>
> I hate tiny url.

What a strange thing to feel strong emotion about - but it's there because UKC thought the link was a really long word with no spaces.
woolsack - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to snoop6060:
> (In reply to andy)
>
> I hate tiny url.

thank you for sharing that
butteredfrog - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:

Looking at the photo i'd want him CRB'd too!
snoop6060 - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:

Well it could link to absolutely anything. Though if UKC won't let you paste long links, I'll retract my hatred for it.
tom_in_edinburgh - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:

It must be paedo's shooting kids with invisible sex rays they are worried about because there doesn't seem much chance of anything else happening in broad daylight with two rugby teams, several teachers and a bunch of parents looking on.
Daithi O Murchu - on 30 Sep 2012
In reply to andy:
> I don't usually give these sorts of stories much credence, as they usually turn out to be nonsense, but the quote from the school seems to suggest they've utterly lost leave of their senses:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/9pmfnrc

its the kids! that need the CRB checks
Moggsy on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to andy: Ian Huntley had a CRB.... As much use as tits on a fish that stuff.

lowersharpnose - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to snoop6060:

Use LongURL in your browser, it shows the real when your mouse pointer rests on the short one.
Simon4 - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Moggsy:
> (In reply to andy) Ian Huntley had a CRB.... As much use as tits on a fish that stuff.

Actually I don't think he did, but it was his girlfriend who was associated with the school, as a teaching assistant. But that does not invalidate your point about the usefullness of these checks, essentially a bureacrats formulaic and clumsy response to a real but intractable and insidious problem. There is precious little doubt that these checks cause a great deal of expense and nuiscance to the innocent, while doing very little to impede the guilty.

Curiously it is sometimes surprising to see things work the other way. I was at a school concert for my little niece, with dozens of schools involved, so that finding the children afterwards was a bit of a nightmare. I left her parents standing in the middle of the collection area and wandered off to see if I could see the sign for her school. I found it, niece promptly grabs my hand and I say to teacher in charge "I'm her uncle". No confirmation of this statement is sought other than the child's obvious recognition, and we wander off into the night, hoping that her parents haven't moved off from where they are supposed to be.
Postmanpat on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to andy:

I have a friend who is a nurse. She is currently doing work through agencies.Each agency requires a new CRB check. Currently she is at six and counting. Completely f*cking mad.
owlart - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Postmanpat: A friend of mine does sports coaching for after-school sessions at various private schools in London. Last I heard she had a folder with over 40 CRBs in it!
Neil Williams - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Postmanpat:

There is a reason for this in the case of Enhanced checks, to be fair (not Standard ones).

If there is an ongoing Police investigation into an individual, the Chief Constable has the option of writing individually and confidentially to the employer giving them information about this investigation, where to print it on the CRB return would prejudice the investigation.

I don't think this happens often, but where it does it could prevent someone unsuitable being employed. So for this to be used, a separate check must occur each time.

Neil
Postmanpat on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to owlart:
> (In reply to Postmanpat) A friend of mine does sports coaching for after-school sessions at various private schools in London. Last I heard she had a folder with over 40 CRBs in it!

Now a huge vested interest in maintaining the system by those who profit from it. How did we let this happen?

dissonance - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to owlart:
> (In reply to Postmanpat) A friend of mine does sports coaching for after-school sessions at various private schools in London. Last I heard she had a folder with over 40 CRBs in it!

how exactly do they work?
Once you get a CRB certificate is it valid for x months for one employer?
mkean - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to andy:
It is very important for everyone who could possibly see a child at a distance to have a CRB check because nonces have invisible tentacles and can move at nearly the speed of light. They should also include mandatory DNA testing because science has showed that peadophiles share 97% of their DNA with crabs.

Has anyone contacted Chris Morris for a comment on this story?
winhill - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to snoop6060: you can install an automatic preview function now.

I never understood why people post tinyurl links without the preview function anyway, and a quick note to say where you're being re-directed to.
owlart - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to dissonance: A CRB is valid for only one employer, so as she effectively works for many employers (each private school being a seperate employer) then she needs a fresh one for each school. They last indefinitely whilst your with that employer, but if you do casual work for them, it's up to them to decide how often they want to get it renewed, I think. I did some work in a school, for which I was CRB checked, but then 6 months later when I went back, they decided that the CRB had 'expired' and hence they couldn't leave me unattented at any point (including being escorted to the staff toilets!).
Postmanpat on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to Postmanpat)
>
>
> I don't think this happens often, but where it does it could prevent someone unsuitable being employed. So for this to be used, a separate check must occur each time.
>
> Neil

So why doesn't the CRB act as a licence so that the holder registers his/her employment with each new employer which is passed back to the licensor/vetting agency so that the police know who to contact of they have concerns?



jonnie3430 - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Postmanpat:

Why doesn't everyone get given a CRB when born and then remove them when needed?
owlart - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Postmanpat: When they first came in, CRBs were 'transferrable' between employers, then they became individual. There's been lots of talk about making them transferrable again, but that seems to be as far as it's got.
In reply to andy:

The whole CRB system has recently changed for the better. I am a Governor of our local school and we no longer need to have CRB checks as of last month. Also the regulations on volunteers have also been relaxed slightly so that many volunteers no longer need the enhanced CRB checks which were a right pain to fill out.

Alan
Neil Williams - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Postmanpat:

That's what the VBS was going to do, wasn't it? Very bureaucratic, though.

Neil
ads.ukclimbing.com
Enty - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Simon4:
> (In reply to Moggsy)
> [...]
>
> Actually I don't think he did, but it was his girlfriend who was associated with the school, as a teaching assistant.

I thought Huntley was the caretaker. If he'd had a CRB check maybe his other sex offence allegations and his burglary conviction might have prevented him getting the job.


E
Climbing Pieman on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to highclimber:
> (In reply to andy) The CRB thing is getting out of hand: nay, it IS out of hand.
> they are a pointless and expensive waste of paper. besides the fact that you actually do not need one when in the presence of someone who is and aren't being left alone wit vulnerable and young persons!

I know quite a few folk who do voluntary work that can and does involve being alone in a room on a one to one basis with 12 yr olds and upwards, males and females, and often with vulnerable persons (as defined by the Police Act) or those depressed and having a bad time, all without a CRB check. Yes there are others in the building, but what good is that! The employer states they CRB checks are not necessary in their circumstances. Seems like the need is open to interpretation?
Simon4 - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Enty: I think you are correct, but caretakers were not checked at the time, also he applied under a false name, which was not picked up.

In any case his contact with the girls had nothing to do with him working at the school, they came to visit his girlfriend. Which nothing but an insane extension of the CRB system could possibly catch, especially with the cunning of genuine paedophiles (as against those unfairly fingered for this by hysterical over-reaction and moral panic). Moral panics often (or even some would say mostly), have some basis in fact, but are gross over-reactions, frequently for dubious motives on the part of those instigating the over-reaction.

Actually there was a great deal of suspicion around Huntley, but none of it proven by convictions, which does seem quite like the situation with Jimmy Saville (usual caveat - assuming there is any merit in the accusations of Saville).
Enty - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Simon4:

Just been googling this.

Huntley was living in the rented caretaker's house provided by the school. The two girls just happened to be walking past.

Seems like there was lot's of dithering with Huntleys previous offences.

If he's had the checks he wouldn't have been living where he was.

E
tony on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Climbing Pieman:
> (In reply to highclimber)
> [...]
>
> I know quite a few folk who do voluntary work that can and does involve being alone in a room on a one to one basis with 12 yr olds and upwards, males and females, and often with vulnerable persons (as defined by the Police Act) or those depressed and having a bad time, all without a CRB check. Yes there are others in the building, but what good is that! The employer states they CRB checks are not necessary in their circumstances. Seems like the need is open to interpretation?

Definitely open to interpretation and subject to the headteacher's position. My partner and I did a work project a few years ago involving recording primary school children reading a selection of stories. We worked with schools across the UK, so if CRB rules had been enforced rigorously, we would have needed CRB checks in about 20 different counties/local authorities, which would have been a big pain. As it happened, we managed a mixture of teaching assistant/admin person chaperoning and some flexibility and latitude, and avoided the need for any CRB checks completely. I guess the fact we were working for a well-known publisher may have also made a difference.

Simon4 - on 01 Oct 2012
In reply to Enty: I am pretty sure the 2 girls knew and liked his girlfriend and were coming to visit her, i.e. nothing could have protected them.

But not to get too hung up on the specifics of a single very extreme case, given that hard cases make bad law, it is clear that there is a balance to be struck between child protection and normal opportunities for kids for sports, arts and other activities.

If one were prone to conspiracy theories, it is easy to attribute a very malevolent intention and mindset to the extreme attention given to that case, also the recent schoolgirl elopement (or even the very long after the event Jimmy Saville situation), and the virtualy complete ignoring of the systematic rape and grooming of dozens or possibly even hundreds of girls in Rochdale and elsewhere.

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