/ Abseil Knot

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Mike7 on 02 Oct 2012
Has anyone got a link / diagram that better shows this abseil knot method?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQBiN_c-STM

The shade is making it hard to follow in the link.

Thanks
butteredfrog - on 02 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

Not the clearest video! never seen that before, guess it would concentrate the mind to keep those absails smooth. :)
birdie num num - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:
Make a loop, and then another loop. Twist the first loop doubling back with a half turn between and under the other loop while casting the other loop over the first loop, finishing by pinching it through the jaws of itself. You're now ready to abseil.
Stuart (aka brt) - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

Look up Highwayman's Hitch.
birdie num num - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:
Remember Mike, when you abseil, all your eggs are in one basket. You need to be confident with your knot, anchor, device and back up. Always double check. Knots have been debated many times on UCK. Double Fishermans is safe, starting out, Num Num would suggest using that until you become more familiar and confident with other methods.
mrchewy - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to birdie num num: Num num speak truth - I learnt and used the double fisherman's knot from the start and only now am happy enough with my abbing in general to try another knot.
I rarely abseil however, you may climb on sea cliffs and be a pro.
nniff - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

And why the blazes would you want to do that?
Jamie B - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

So you abseil off one strand and pull on the other to retrieve it?

What exactly does this give you over a conventional retrievable abseil?
LJC - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7: Looks like it is knotted on the anchor as opposed to threaded through it, meaning that when the retrieval strand comes tight the knot undoes and you don't have to pull x meters of rope through the anchor. Will be sticking to a doubled rope or edk though!
Jamie B - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to LJC:

> when the retrieval strand comes tight the knot undoes and you don't have to pull x meters of rope through the anchor.

Instead you get to watch in suspense to see if the loop that you are pulling down hooks on anything. I think I'll stick with pulling an end through; I really don't see it as an inconvenience.
mikekeswick - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7: Oh my....make sure you ab on the correct strand.....aaaaaaaaaarrrrgggghhhhhhhh. Overhand knot for me thanks!
Landy_Dom on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

OMG WHY would you do that instead of doubling the rope???

You can't abseil any longer than on a doubled rope (you need the free end to reach the ground in order to retrieve it), if something loosens or catches you're dead, and pulling the loop off at the end it's likely to loop over something and you'll have to pull it all through anyway.

I can see no advantage to this method.
risby - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7: This is an extended version of the mooring hitch

http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/mooring-hitch/

where it is useful as the boat on the standing end buffets about it only pulls the hitch tighter but yer jolly sailor can easily free the whole thing by pulling the working end

It is also known as the falconer's knot and the halter hitch. Obviously the falconer only has one free hand so the simple release is useful and also the falcon or the horse may pull every which way but won't undo the knot.

There is no way in hell I would use an abseil made with this, however many loops you pulled through, though!
Mike7 on 03 Oct 2012
Indeed, it caught my eye too. As I said, I wasn't sure if I had missed something in the video, but from the strength of the response here I would suggest not.

Apparently it's popular with the French - but something tells me not all THAT popular...

Thanks for the links.
Ann S on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

What's the French for Darwin award?
robinsi197 - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Ann S:

Prix Lamarck
the_loz - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

There are some useful tips on this website http://www.mountain-trips.co.uk/abseil.html
krikoman - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to Landy_Dom: The advantage is that you can abseil, if there are trees or spikes around, without any extra gear. It's very useful as a self rescue technique if for some reason your left with only your rope.

I don't get your loosens or catches statement.

I've never seen it used in anger before, I was shown this know about 35 years ago before I started climbing. I've often wondered why it's not used and just thought it was because too dangerous. I think you have to be very carefully that you select the correct strand to go down on obviously.
Alex Slipchuk on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):
> (In reply to Mike7)
>
> Look up Highwayman's Hitch.

It is indeed a highway mans hitch, stacked. Designed to allow a quick getaway whilst securing horse. Used to use it for my dug
GrahamD - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to krikoman:

Surely if you have a tree, you just put the rope round the tree and abseil on the two strands
krikoman - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to GrahamD: yes but they are very very rough trees and you don't want to pull 30m of rope around it. smiley face
David Coley - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to krikoman: You lost me there. Doesn't the video show it being tied around a sling? Why not just loop the rope over the sling as normal. With a tree, one would just pass the rope around the back of the tree. Am I missing something.
krikoman - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to David Coley: see reply above
tallsteve - on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to risby:

Better video here:
http://www.emhm.terre.defense.gouv.fr/memento/alpinisme/videos/video-dufour01-c3m.wmv

Also, here's a picture using a tree. Rubbish set of pics, but anybody who has used ropes in trees will tell you how high friction bark is. Pulling 25m of rope a around a wide tree trunk would be a problem:
http://www.grimpavranches.com/techniques/les-noeuds/noeud-dufour/

It doesn't look like a falconer's knot to me as it starts with a bight of rope around the item to be abbed off.

More akin to a chin knot, only using alternate strands for each loop, rather than the same strand over and over.

I can't imagine doing this when tired. Abbing off the wrong strand would be fatal. I'll just sacrifice an old tape if its all the same with you.
aultguish on 24 Oct 2012
In reply to risby: Getting off thread a wee bit, so apologies.
Every horse I have owned in the past, have all learned to pull the free end and release themselves. I even had one that would pull the tail of the knot and stop when you looked over. As soon as your back was turned, it would start to pull some more through, until eventually, off he'd trot :-))
EeeByGum - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

> What exactly does this give you over a conventional retrievable abseil?

Never seen that before but could probably work it out. From what I can make out in the video, it is better than the conventional method for two reasons.

1. The knot seems to have a bit of spring in it which if you are abing on dodge tat will reduce the pressure from any bouncing on the rope.
2. When you pull the slip knot, the whole thing pings out of the loop in one go meaning that you have less chance of a knot / the end of the rope getting snagged.

Of course there is still the possibility that a rope falling in its entirety will also snag, or worse still, bring down a load of loose choss. Conventional retrieval gives you a bit more control in that department.
GridNorth - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to EeeByGum: One problem with it is that it seems to use up quite a bit of rope.
EeeByGum - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to GridNorth: True, but I guess you don't have to create such a large knot and anyway, how often do you ab to the very end of the rope? I suppose the other downer on it is that if you are abing on 9mm ropes, you are going to have you work cut out for your ATC to have enough grip. That said in many part of the states, you tend to climb on a 10.5mm and trail a 6mm dynamic for abbing purposes which would play into this system perfectly.
nniff - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to EeeByGum:
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
>
> [...]
>
> From what I can make out in the video, it is better than the conventional method for two reasons.

Do you mean better as a method in its entirety, or better in parts but still ludicrously deficient in others?

If the former, then off you go, Geronimo!
David Coley - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to krikoman: but doesn't it use other kit in the vid? The sling?
ads.ukclimbing.com
David Coley - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to tallsteve: although friction around a tree can be an issue, if the tree is that thick ab off a branch
deepsoup - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> What exactly does this give you over a conventional retrievable abseil?

The excitement of knowing you may be the author of your own demise.
(Which, as Clive Coolhead could tell you, is more intense than orgasm.)
Patrick G - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:
Watched a French Guide use this knot once on the absail on the Cosmiques Arete, mate and myself thought "O F**k he is going to die". He lowered his client first, tied into the anchor with this knot, then abbed on the rope going down to his client while throwing off his own coils. Pulled the rope, back on with their coils and away on their merry way.

It did mean neither of them had to untie off the rope, all looked very smooth, so I suppose if speed is your thing it might be worth considering.

P
martinph78 on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7: My grandma used to call this kind of knotting "finger knitting", she did it with wool.

I wouldn't abseil off it for anything.
nniff - on 25 Oct 2012
In reply to Patrick G:

If you were to lower the first party a bit too far, and then connected to the 'pull to release end' then you're doomed. But, if you know the route like the back of your hand then I can see some sense in that - not a lot mind
David Coley - on 26 Oct 2012
In reply to Patrick G: this is the only time I can see the method is of any use. The guide would have had the coils on his back already so it would be fast, and he was unlikely to ab on the wrong rope as that end was coiled, plus the client was tied in the whole time. Even if the client fell off the lower ledge they would have been safe. I'm guessing it was from a fixed sling and if needed the guide could have soloed back up to retrieve the rope if it got stuck. If the rope failed to pull through the knot, prussiking back up would not be an option as you might not have the whole knot still up there, or you might prussik the wrong rope!
tallsteve - on 26 Oct 2012
In reply to David Coley:
> (In reply to tallsteve) although friction around a tree can be an issue, if the tree is that thick ab off a branch

In the one vid above they use a big rock. Also big trees can have surprisingly small root systems. The nearer the ground your attachment the smaller the leverage on the roots.

There is probably only a minor issue with abbing off the wrong rope. You have to pull alternately on each strand to untie it as they are looped alternately. Thus if you clip into the wrong one you pop just one loop. Wouldn't like to test it though!

Using it to stay tied together is a cute idea. Must play with this knot over the weekend. I like a new knot!
Brown - on 26 Oct 2012
In reply to Mike7:

That would be handy in some American wilderness areas where leaving any new fixed gear (slings included) is banned.

Not as cool as the 2x4 system however...


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