/ FRCC Odd grade

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DerwentDiluted - on 03 Oct 2012
The New FRCC guide to the Eden Valley is great but I am puzzled by Greta's Climb at Scratchmere Scar being given the Grade of MVS+. I haven't done the route so am not at all qualified to comment but surely the + cancels out the M and the route is just plain old VS? The FRCC have long graded routes as being Adjectival +/- and I've always felt this a bit odd, surely a VS+ is a HARD Very Severe (which for the sake of simplicity we could abbreviate to HVS) and an HVS- is a not very Hard Hard Very Severe which renders it simply Very Severe?

I can see the logic behind saying something is at the top/bottom of the grade but MVS+ seems peverse, Could a route be graded 'Mild Mild Hard Severe- But Still Hard Enough Not To Be a Hard Hard (but not actually Hard Severe)Severe +' or do I have too much time on my hands to think about this rubbish?

Always good to start a pointless grade debate.
Ramblin dave - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
Wouldn't be an issue if they used a sensible international system and graded it F5.253a++---+-+-+ P3.2342 --+-+.
bpmclimb - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

>

Personally, I think MVS needs to be phased out, along with HVD. MVS+ is just plain stupid!

a lakeland climber on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Just means it's at the top end of the MVS grade. Probably not much use for the lower grades but quite handy at HVS and above if you have an idea that something is easy for the grade when you are breaking in to that grade.

ALC
Caralynh - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Even better is a route in the Lakes, at Shepherds, I think, graded sthg like "HVS+++!!" (the exclamation marks are part of the grade). Do they mean E1, or could this also be a proposed grade for TPS ;-)?
Tom Last - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Caralynh:
> (In reply to DerwentDiluted)
>
> Do they mean E1, or could this also be a proposed grade for TPS ;-)?

No, that would be กก---HVS
;)
Simon Caldwell - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
I find that the FRCC use HS and MVS pretty much interchangeably - would HS+ make more sense to you?
biscuit - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Caralynh:
> (In reply to DerwentDiluted)
>
> Even better is a route in the Lakes, at Shepherds, I think, graded sthg like "HVS+++!!" (the exclamation marks are part of the grade). Do they mean E1, or could this also be a proposed grade for TPS ;-)?

It's Finale at Shepherd's. That one is obviously tongue in cheek and nice to see some humour about grades in a guide.

I think it just makes it easier to see where the routes sit without looking through the graded list at the back. If i am breaking into HVS i can look for a HVS- if i am wanting to push it i can look for a HVS+. Just trying to be helpful i guess.
Lord of Starkness - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Grade Creep!

It was HS in the original guide (1979) - and that was felt to be about right at the time, so unless some holds have fallen off it I can't understand why it needed regrading. I've led it FFS!
Steve Clegg - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Toreador:
Nonsense. Any fule kno that HS is harder than MVS.
Clegg Maj.
Bulls Crack - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to DerwentDiluted)
>
> [...]
>
> Personally, I think MVS needs to be phased out, along with HVD. MVS+ is just plain stupid!

MVS - a lovely grade! Loads in Northumberland once upon a time
Simon Caldwell - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Still quite a few in the NY Moors, where it usually comes somewhere between VS and HVS
Dave Garnett - on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
> I haven't done the route so am not at all qualified to comment but

Well, I wasn't going to say that but...

> surely the + cancels out the M and the route is just plain old VS?

Of course not! It's obviously at the top end of MVS but not quite VS-, surely that's clear?

Anyway, you're taking this way too seriously. Grades are all made up. It may shock you to know that HVS is a completely invented grade. It wasn't given to Moses on a tablet of Bendcrete. There was once a grade (especially in the Lakes) of VS(hard), and that was made up too!

Yrmenlaf on 03 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

There always used to be the "just" prefix and the "in rubbers" suffix (I am showing my age!)

So it is more properly graded "Just MVS+ in rubbers"

Y.
MFB - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Steve Clegg:
> (In reply to Toreador)
> Nonsense. Any fule kno that HS is harder than MVS.
> Clegg Maj.

your quite correct, HS is always desperate while MVS's are delightful

Jim at Work on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to MFB: second that!
Michael Hood - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to MFB:
> your quite correct, HS is always desperate while MVS's are delightful

That's because MVS's are routes that a VS leader can "relax" on and enjoy, whereas HS's are there to give Severe leaders a hard time.

Wiley Coyote - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
HS is the hardest grade in the world.
BelleVedere on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Michael Hood:
> (In reply to MFB)
> [...]
>
> That's because MVS's are routes that a VS leader can "relax" on and enjoy, whereas HS's are there to give Severe leaders a hard time.

Tru dat
Blue Straggler - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to biscuit:
> (In reply to Caralynh)
> That one is obviously tongue in cheek and nice to see some humour about grades in a guide.

I have a Northumberland guide from 1979 that grades one of the climbs "Interesting" and there is no obvious tongue-in-cheek humour about it. Reading the route description, I kind of see why that grade might make sense (I haven't even been to the crag let alone on the climb in question). It is a long traverse that barely has your feet far above ground level, apart from the technical crux which is iirc 4m up surmounting some sort of pinnacle off a VS route. Would probably just get a V grade today.

I'm interested in this "FFS" grade that someone mentioned earlier :-)
Kid Spatula - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Hard Very Radioactive is my favourite grade ever.
Rog Wilko on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted: Not so long ago F&R guides had a graded list in the back which purported to put almost every route in the area in order of difficulty (obviously a mug's game). This was then for a while altered to a SORT of graded list which in fact just divided routes of each grade into Low, Medium & High, with no attempt at ranking within those divisions. They're basically continuing this system while saving the pages which the graded list used to occupy.
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Mild VS is a grade, like Severe, Hard Severe, Very Severe, Hard VS, E1 etc. Within that grade you can have routes that are hard for that grade or easy for that grade but that doesn't put them up or down into the adjacent grade. The + and - system is an attempt to show those routes and thus make it easier for someone who is getting into leading a particular grade a pointer as to what may be a suitable route and what may not. It's just the same as the old graded list really and every bit as subjective. You don't have to take any notice of it at all if you don't want to.

I don't think MVS should be done away with. I'm doing a Scottish guide at the moment and the fact that they don't have MVS in Scotland is really annoying. It means that you have to give such routes VS 4b and then qualify it with "easy for the grade" or people will assume it is bold and serious.
Simon Caldwell - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Stephen Reid:
> It means that you have to give such routes VS 4b and then qualify it with "easy for the grade" or people will assume it is bold and serious.

If it's 4b and neither bold nor serious then surely it's HS?
duchessofmalfi - on 04 Oct 2012
This has been discussed before here but I can't remember the outcome. This grade appears a lot in FRCC guides and I can't remember if it is:

(MVS)+ (ie slightly harder than an MVS)

or

M(VS+) (ie slightly easier than VS+)

Obviously the former is "slightly easy VS" and the latter "slightly hard VS".

I take them both to mean "near enough to VS that anywhere else they'd be called VS".

It is ambiguous and idiosyncratic to the FRCC, as far as I know, but harmless enough so long as the guidebook writers indicate which side of VS it lies.

CurlyStevo - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Toreador:


"If it's 4b and neither bold nor serious then surely it's HS?"

if also not sustained then I agree :) I don't see a need for MVS it doesn't really describe anything usefull that either VS or HS couldn't describe adequately, hence why many areas don't use it.
Michael Gordon - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

MVS is a complete non-grade filling a gap that isn't there. So adding a + or - to it is even more non-sensical.
Bulls Crack - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to CurlyStevo:

HS's often tend to be cruxy eg a Severe with a tricky move. MVS's are more chilled.
Calder - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)
>
> HS's often tend to be cruxy eg a Severe with a tricky move. MVS's are more chilled.

I've not done many MVS's, but Ardus at Shepherds is a pretty good example. It somehow doesn't feel anything like either an HS or a VS, but certainly does feel somewhere inbetween.
Hardonicus - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted: Of course MVS exists, as does MS which is harder than HVDiff. Furthermore Mild E1 also exists in the more commonly known form of E0.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Simon Caldwell - on 04 Oct 2012
In reply to Calder:
> Ardus at Shepherds is a pretty good example

I haven't done that one, but I have done Derision Groove which gets the same grade, but is really bottom end HS, as is The Fang at Gouther.
Doctor's Grooves at Eagle Crag is harder than both of them and gets HS (which possibly supports a point someone made earlier!)
auld al on 05 Oct 2012
In reply to Stephen Reid:

>
> I don't think MVS should be done away with. I'm doing a Scottish guide at the moment and the fact that they don't have MVS in Scotland is really annoying. It means that you have to give such routes VS 4b and then qualify it with "easy for the grade" or people will assume it is bold and serious.

We don't have MVS in Northern Ireland either. Can't say i miss it though when i do come across it i tend to assume an easy time. I wouldn't be in favour of introducing it here.
victim of mathematics - on 05 Oct 2012
In reply to duchessofmalfi:
> This has been discussed before here but I can't remember the outcome. This grade appears a lot in FRCC guides and I can't remember if it is:
>
> (MVS)+ (ie slightly harder than an MVS)
>
> or
>
> M(VS+) (ie slightly easier than VS+)
>
> Obviously the former is "slightly easy VS" and the latter "slightly hard VS".
>
> I take them both to mean "near enough to VS that anywhere else they'd be called VS".
>
> It is ambiguous and idiosyncratic to the FRCC, as far as I know, but harmless enough so long as the guidebook writers indicate which side of VS it lies.

It's only ambiguous if you're being mathematically pedantic. Do you get confused by whether HVS+ means a hard, tough VS, or a hard HVS?
BelleVedere on 08 Oct 2012
In reply to Stephen Reid:

there's one at dunkeld aparently
Stone Idol - on 08 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted: They don't have MVS in Cornwall which makes me pine for Langdale. Some of the HS are ok (Doorpost at Bosigran) for example - and easier than many a Lakes MVS. That said, one or two of my acquaintance have drawn blood and you find them qualified by phrases like - 'at the limit of the grade'. In other words they are MVS. This arcane phraseology also applies to many a VS route whiuch should be nudged up to HVS or VS (hard) if you prefer. Hey ho.
Offwidth - on 10 Oct 2012
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

I support what they are doing: indicating routes easy for a grade and hard for a grade (you get feature lists for these in a few modern guides)but if you didnt know that i can understand why it might look odd. From a pure grading perspective I don't see any need for HS and MVS being used together; it's particularly silly if you give the former to grauchy routes and the latter to stuff the same grade that is pleasant. Anyhow, I'm looking forward to the world's first E0+ and E0-: Fiend will then have his place in history.

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