/ Offroaders

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Haszko - on 22 Oct 2012
The Long Causeway over Stanage is one of two Green Lanes recently closed to off road vehicles. This may be temporary, depending to some extent on the support for a permanent closure. Please visit the Peak National Park website and look up the consultation proposal for this. It will give an email address where you can send your supprt for a permanent closure.
Richard Haszko
John W - on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Haszko:

Thanks for the post - I'll be sure to send my support for a permanent re-opening of a legal road.
Dax H - on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Haszko: Where do we send support to get walkers banned from legal trails and paths?. Vehicles have access to a tiny tiny amount of off road trails, can we not live and let live.
No doubt your going to say that the noise spoils the tranquillity but what about the noise of hundreds of climbers at stanage every weekend clanging metal together and shouting safe/take.
You may also mention the damage to the ground (again to a tiny part of the great outdoors) but what about looking to the erosion of both the ground at the foot of popular crags and the damage and polishing to the rock face.
quirky - on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Haszko: i have never driven off road...can't say as it appeals to me but why should they be banned?? Lots of other countryside available if it offends you that much.
Sir Chasm - on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Dax H: Send your support to www.whinystrawmanarguments.co.uk.
Goucho on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Dax H: If this isn't a troll - which I suspect it is, and probably worth 2/10 so far - then you really are a prat.

Not because you drive off-road, but because you come on a forum like this where you're guaranteed to meet almost universal opposition to your viewpoint.

You'd probably have more success going on a Vegan forum to extol the virtues of eating raw beef.
woolsack - on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to Dax H) If this isn't a troll - which I suspect it is, and probably worth 2/10 so far - then you really are a prat.
>
> Not because you drive off-road, but because you come on a forum like this where you're guaranteed to meet almost universal opposition to your viewpoint.
>
> You'd probably have more success going on a Vegan forum to extol the virtues of eating raw beef.

I don't remember your 'universal opposition' last time a 4x4 bitch fight was called, I recall a fairly good debate was had by all
thebrookster on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Haszko: Hmmm, hope they don't ban em, as has been said everyone to their own tastes (I enjoy off-roading, climbing and hill-walking :P ).

Personally, the blinking great paths that seem to pop up all over the place is just as bad as the damage done by off-roading to my mind.

Mind you, on a similar subject, I recently did a walk around Loch A'an, which incorporated Beinn Mheadhoin, Derry Cairngorm and Ben Macdui (first time in Cairngorms pretty much, always used to prefer the western Highlands) and was rather shocked at the damage caused by walking poles! Took me a while to work out what had caused all those funny little holes on either side of the path. Made me wonder what the long term damage of this could be, on the basis that these holes are all along the sides of the paths, which I always understood to be the weakest bit to start of with.
Tis like that thread on cairns, cept if you take the cairns away you can still follow the walking pole marks ;)
Goucho on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to woolsack: If you read my post again, I don't think you'll see any 'universal opposition', simply a comment about this being the kind of forum where the vast majority of UKC'ers will be.

Ramblin dave - on 22 Oct 2012
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to Haszko)
> No doubt your going to say that the noise spoils the tranquillity but what about the noise of hundreds of climbers at stanage every weekend clanging metal together and shouting safe/take.

So you point is that two people in a 4x4 only make a bit more noise than a couple of hundred climbers put together?
Dax H - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to Dax H)
> [...]
>
> So you point is that two people in a 4x4 only make a bit more noise than a couple of hundred climbers put together?

No my point is that there are hundreds of thousands of square miles were 4x4 can not go and a tiny collection of trails that they can.
People use the noise and damage excuse in their arguments to get them banned but conveniently forget the noise and damage that they themselves do.
It seems to me that walkers want to ban everyone but walkers. The horsey set want rid of mountain bikes, the mountain bikers seem to have a live and let live policy for all but 4x4s, the fishing fraternity want rid of kayaks and canoes ever thought they only have access to .01% of the moving water.
There is room for everyone.
Trangia - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Dax H:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
>
> There is room for everyone.

No longer, I'm afraid, on these tiny little islands of ours. The time is approaching when access to the Great Outdoors needs to be banned to all including off roaders, walkers, trials bikers, runners, climbers, riders, cyclists, picnickers, hang gliders, ramblers, shooters, stalkers, fishers, dog walkers, skiers et al.

Instead we should bus people to vantage points along paved roads to look through binoculars at our wondrous landscapes and mountains.

That way the we will be able to preserve it all.
Tom V - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to redsulike:
I wouldn't be so dismissive of his point about crag erosion. The evidence is there on the most popular routes, at the crag foot and the approaches. See John Earl's comment on Corby's, for instance, on this website.
m1ke_smith - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Haszko:

I have been one of those who have written to object to the proposed closure of lanes for Trail Riders and other responsible users of road legal vehicles with off road capabilities. I was also in attendance of the protest on Sunday (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-20005880) - an well attended event.

I believe this proposed action is both a waste of valuable funds (whispered to be 100,000+) and discrimination to those who enjoy these legal lanes.

I'm a climber, trail rider and mountain biker and spend my money in the shops, cafe's and petrol stations of the Peak District.

m1ke_smith - on 23 Oct 2012
Sir Chasm - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to m1ke_smith: How much are the repairs to the causeway costing?
Liam M - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Tom V: The erosion on approaches to honey pot crags from walkers and climbers is interesting. I was intrigued by the tactic taken at Hadrian's Wall, where requests were made to meander so as to avoid focus on one or two paths, recognising that it was the aggregated effects that did the damage.

If this approach was more widely used, a measure based on damage from a single use could be employed. If a single bike or 4x4 left a distinct mark it could be deemed unacceptable.

I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of recreational 4x4s on a lot of tracks, but that's largely because the couple of times I've come across them they've been driven by gurning fools who are unwilling to slow or show courtesy to other track users, in one case barely giving me time to scramble out of the deep narrow cut he was driving along before barrelling past, so I may not have the most unbiased view.
Paul F - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to m1ke_smith) How much are the repairs to the causeway costing?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cost+of+repairs+to+stanage+causeway
m1ke_smith - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Paul F & Sir Chasm:

Original!

And round and round we shall go.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=peak+district+erosion

Walkers, climbers, mountain bikers all add to the same problem - as well as sheep & acid rain if you'll believe the link at the top of the search above.
Paul F - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to m1ke_smith:
> (In reply to Paul F & Sir Chasm)
>
> Original!


My reply was to Sir Chasm laziness in finding out the info for himself. I've expressed no other opinion.
Sir Chasm - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to m1ke_smith: You brought money into it. Why do you think you should be able to rip up unsurfaced routes just because you enjoy an unsociable activity?
ChrisJD on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to m1ke_smith:

Not just walkers but "legions of walkers". The real enemy of the Peak is revealed at last ;-)
m1ke_smith - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Paul F:

Paul.. I apologise... I thought it was a hint at my lack of reply. I wasn't going to give him the benefit.

Cheers,

Mike
Ramblin dave - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to m1ke_smith:
> (In reply to Paul F & Sir Chasm)
>
> Original!
>
> And round and round we shall go.
>
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=peak+district+erosion
>
> Walkers, climbers, mountain bikers all add to the same problem - as well as sheep & acid rain if you'll believe the link at the top of the search above.

Without wanting to comment on the overall debate, this particular argument is completely specious and really winds me up. You might as well say that chipping artificially alters the character of climbs, but polish also artificially alters the character of climbs and so if you're going to do climbing at all then people should be allowed to chip where and when they like.

The fact that two things have consequences of the same character doesn't mean that they have consequences of the same magnitude, and hence doesn't mean that if you accept one you have to accept the other.
ChrisJD on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I posted, then deleted. Really can't be arsed anymore.

It's a done deal by the PDNP and 4x4 are going to be banned and the anti's will all claim a great victory.

dissonance - on 23 Oct 2012
In reply to m1ke_smith:

> I believe this proposed action is both a waste of valuable funds (whispered to be 100,000+) and discrimination to those who enjoy these legal lanes.

These funds would be covering what exactly?

As for the link to protest, ermm yes a go slow is the way to win people round to the cause.


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