/ A different slant on Saville maybe?
Not really, doesnt take into account the whole molesting patients while working as a porter tho does it.
rock stars / celebrities have free access to lots of willing young ladies and get what they like from that situation.
Savile - seems he wasn't out of the ordinary culture, apart from his access was to minors.
I'm sure he was less evil, just thoroughly misguided and in a situation where it was too easy, perceiving these young girls as being as willing to their hero as all the other groupies around. He seems to have forgotten the difference between kids and grown-ups, but the moral culture that bred such activities was already set.
I have to say, and I am sure I might upset some here, I dont think Saville thought he was evil. I dont think any peadophile is evil. They are simply fulfilling a need. As sick as it is. People use people all the time. Sad, but true. I am not defending anyone, simply expressing an opinion
Evil is a very strong word. Wrong, I prefer. True. I have lots of insane thoughts but I don't act on them.
You almost seem to be defending him. Just because a lot of willing girls are "up-for-it" does not mitigate what happened. Just because everyone was supposedly doing it does not mitigate what happened. Just because he did a lot of good, does not mitigate what happend. What he did was wrong. It was wrong then and it is still wrong. End of.
couldnt access the link :(
No I am not defending him. Just speaking my mind. Sorry you seem to find it offensive. Everyone was obviously up for it in the 70's. Things have changed. I'm not saying what he did was right. Thats for sure. I think when you start investigating lives no one is whiter than white.
That's not what some of the complainants are saying.
Think about this then.
You are single. You are in your twenties. You have lots of money. You have women throwing themselves at you. Some underage. How do you know?
Are you always going to say no?
I might be talking some shite, but as a man, and men can think with what is between their legs, what are you going to do? Dont pretend to be self righteous about this, if I woman plays the game and makes it obvious she wants more, and she is pretty, are you really going to say no?
AND NO I dont think SAVILLE was right, and he had a problem. But given the above scenerio, and had you read a link I posted earlier, and you were rich and famous, I'm sure you'd get yourself into proverbial shit.
It wasn't a case of Savile just fancying young girls and acting on it in what he might consider a consensual way, he sought out vulnerable people at institutions so he could have power over them. Many people get their kicks from diminishing others and look for easy targets that they can bully and control. If you think that seeking out disturbed kids in Broadmoor is the same as groupies throwing themselves at rock stars, well what can I say.
Well I wouldnt know about that as I dont do things like that. You seem to know a lot more about it than me. I have never once defended the man.
According to some of the complaints Saville was molesting girls on hospital wards, patients at Broadmoor hospital, at a childrens home and a cub scout.
Those are not borderline cases of potential misjudgement about age.
There's nothing self righteous about declining to abuse children or hospital patients.
I am not incinuating anything. I dont know the mind of a child molester, nor did I know all the details. Nor am I following the whole thing as closely as you. Here I am defending myself. Wish I'd never started the ruddy thread. I wont say any more on the matter from now. Hope the thread gets pulled.
PS did you actually READ the telegraph article?
I see what you are trying to do. You are trying to bring a level of open enquiry and balance to the debate. No body sees themselves as evil (unless they are suffering from some psychosis or other) and I too feel that the term evil is a convenient mask for not trying to understand peoples motives. I think Savile followed the same line as all dictators have in history. He was given access to vulnerable people and the means and opportunity to exploit that. I would far rather try to understand what it is that prompts someone to abuse their power. I don't think it affects everyone but the old phrase "power corrupts" rings true here.
I have to say that I am also not exactly surprised at the hypocrisy of the papers in shouting cover up when they themselves had evidence which they buried (source: Private Eye)
Never try to bring reason to a witch hunt.
Thankyou for bringing some common sense to this thread.
Was he given access to vulnerable people or did he seek access out and knew by putting himself in those positions of trust he could have his cake and eat it? We're not talking about a guy who might have recklessly slept with a few fifteen-year-olds but someone who, if allegations are to be believed, molested helpless or even comatose patients in their hospital beds. I'm pretty sure Rick Parfitt didn't mean THAT when he said they were all 'at it' in the '70s.
I dont know what Rick Parfitt was getting at. I read the article at face value. The thing that sticks in my mind was 'everyone was at it' or words to that effect. Life was different back then. More importantly though. Esta Ransen knew all about it, why didnt she blow the bloody whistle. I couldnt live knowing about shit, not doing anything.
Interesting point I guess we will never know seeing as how he is dead. Unless he wrote it in a diary or something.
Should all allegations be believed at face value?
we like the allegations as they deliver what we want to believe
Those with the tallest foreheads....are the most likely to get the top of their heads blown off!
Do you think it is any different today in the same sort of circles? In Italy, for example, Berlusconi is still in trouble for a "romp" with a 15 year old - looking at her photo she certainly doesn't look under age!
I suspect life goes on and people in the same situation still do much the same, AIDS might make a slight difference, I suppose... apart from the stuff in hospitals and such, I doubt that Broadmoor (if it still exists) will hand over a set of keys to a pop star again, hopefully.
> Should all allegations be believed at face value?
Well they should be investigated at face value. Belief shouldn't really come into it.
What utter nonsense - the allegations are horrific and I (and I assume anyone of sane mind) would much rather they hadn't happened. Nothing to do with whether we want to believe them.
> Well they should be investigated at face value. Belief shouldn't really come into it.
Yes but I was talking about belief and the propensity for people to believe what is said without question.
> What utter nonsense - the allegations are horrific and I (and I assume anyone of sane mind) would much rather they hadn't happened. Nothing to do with whether we want to believe them.
Just basic psychology. It is precisely because the allegations are so horrific that people want to believe them. Because it feeds into the sense of drama and horror and moral outrage.
Prior to the story going public, Newsnight and subsequently ITV journalists found a number of people independently corroborating the story so it's reasonable to assume the allegations can be broadly be taken on face value.
If they're not broadly genuine allegations,...
who do you think is involved in the conspiracy or is there some other simpler non-conspiracy explanation?
To be clear I am not saying that the allegations are untrue. But I have come across many people who were only too willing to seize them as gospel from the off and accept them unquestionably. Whether the allegations are true or not it is the unwillingness to question that one should guard against.
> To be clear I am not saying that the allegations are untrue. But I have come across many people who were only too willing to seize them as gospel from the off and accept them unquestionably. Whether the allegations are true or not it is the unwillingness to question that one should guard against.
So if that is the case either way there is a conspiracy, which could be:
1, The powers that were knew all along and covered up the story as Jimmy was the fix it man and he had friends in very high places.
2, Jimmy was about par for the course, and the powers that are decided to stir up a whole tangled web of claim and counter claim to use this as a smokescreen to take our focus off the real news.
You may be on to something there john
Me? I keep an open mind and watch to see what develops
Oh definitely other people. I have seen it at first hand a lot.
> seance anyone?
An interesting point on the news just now (BBC radio 2), despite all his other charity work apparently he was never allowed to be involved with BBC Children In Need because of suspicions about him. No specific allegations at that time, but the organisers "thought he was creepy". (A sentiment I've thoroughly agreed with since long before any of this came out.)
interesting especially when looked at along side the Louis Theroux interview.
Just read an interesting article in the Independant, which made the point
Has anyone got any HARD EVIDENCE about what Saville actually did???
Not hearsay, which is what a lot of people including me are relying on. Apparently there is film evidence- not that I have actually seen it ( him groping someone and laughing when on Jim will fix it)
To be honest the evidence in most sex crimes often comes down to two people with vastly differing views of what actually occurred.
Given one of the parties is dead, what we are getting is obviously only one side.
HOWEVER the sheer volume plus the part corroboration by a number of people in the BBC does rather indicate that if he was around to defend himself its difficult to see what defence he could make.
Ok. In light of the hundreds of people that are claiming they have been played with, Mr Saville was obviously a perv who was guilty as sin itself. Lets assign this thread to the dustbin.
The thing is, its quite easy to believe. Shocking, definitely - particularly the extent of the allegations against him. But surprising? Not entirely, because there was just something rather creepy and unsavoury about him.
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