/ Graffitti on the Slate

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Liam Brown - on 30 Oct 2012
http://bntl.co.uk/site/7-days-with-jack-murray/
Just wondering how people feel about 20ft graffitti murals in the slate quarries. This website is a little difficult to read but it will give you an idea of who this guy is. However here's the most relevent part.

"Day 1 – I went on a trip with a couple of other chaps to Snowdonia in North Wales to seek out an abandoned, mountain slate quarry, that was closed over 50 years ago. We found it, and it was definitely worth the 6 hour drive. A vast network of old tunnels, metal structures, workers huts, gravel pits and waterfalls looping through the side of a mountain is the best way to describe it. I brought some paint with me and dropped a little something at the highest point we got to. In the future I want to go back and paint site specific, 20ft plus, murals on some of the rock faces in the old quarry pits. Some people will cry and say I’ve spoiled the place and others will say it’s amazing but that’s just life."
bombshell - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: He makes it sound like no-one visits the place..
Ander on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

He should be filled in.
mkean - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
This website is a little difficult to read

You aren't joking! Maybe someone should show him a map of the quarries and politely suggest he tries to avoid making the access any more difficult?
cap'nChino - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: He's a cock, he's a cock, he's a cock.

I might go to one of his exhibitions and throw rocks at his "creations".

Some people will cry and say I’ve spoiled the place and others will say it’s amazing but that’s just life.
bombshell - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to cap'nChino: i doubt anyone who goes to the quarries will think his creations are "amazing" amazingly out of place maybe
pauldr - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Ander: if i saw him drawing a 20ft piece of shite on the slate, Kick his bloody ladder
gethin_allen on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
How can this cock of "artist" publicise the fact that he is going around defacing other peoples property.
"Some people will cry"
Tha would be him crying if I ever found him vandalising stuff I hold dear.
"others will say it’s amazing" That would be him and his oh so fashionable friends in Soho.
"that’s just life" It isn't just F*in life, that's just a big fat excuse for doing whatever you like without really considering the consequences.

What an utter cock.
Liam Brown - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to bombshell:
> (In reply to cap'nChino) i doubt anyone who goes to the quarries will think his creations are "amazing" amazingly out of place maybe

Dunno, maybe he could construct something not out of place. I'm don't approve at all, just that if it were his intention was to adapt his art to the new context it would at least not be entirely mindless. I thought it was interesting how different his experience is of the place to my own. I get the impression he views it as a dead space.
tom_in_edinburgh - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Someone should introduce Jack Murray, London creative to Constable Jones, Welsh policeman.

zero six - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: 'Just wondering how people feel about 20ft graffitti murals in the slate quarries.

I feel pretty relaxed about it, the quarries make a natural canvas for graffiti and the little mural in the photo looks to have improved the wall to me, it would be cool to see some more colourful artwork however.

Climbers and non-climbers alike have been doing stuff like this in the slate quarries around Llanberis for years. Some of the climbs are more artful expression than natural line. An incongruous and gigantic grey hole blasted out of the side of a mountain in the middle of a beautiful green valley makes this venue a magnet for people to express and create, whether that's by creating climbs, graffiti or shit Hollywood films.

andic - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Nobber


I'd give his missus one tho'
charlieg0pzo - on 30 Oct 2012
This looks like "The Sidings" which he is desecrating. I hope I'm wrong.
Ramblin dave - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
I have trouble getting worked up over a bit of paint on the wall when a) it's a massive man-made hole in the ground and b) climbers are constantly sticking metal bolts in the walls.

I'd worry if it's likely to mess up access agreements, though.
Ramblin dave - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
If they installed a soundsystem and a cafe as well as the graffiti-art it'd give the whole place a sort of urban climbing wall vibe, which could be a thing, too...
adamki - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to charlieg0pzo:

yea thats the sidings... not the first graffiti on slate though.

even climbers have done it before. look at chippadodah on colossus wall
jkarran - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Email him ( studio at jack-murray.com ). I've no idea what good it'll do but it's worth a shot.

Hello Jack,

I'm not sure how to start this but it has come to my attention that you are considering a large scale painting on the walls of the Dinorwic Slate quarries, North Wales ( http://bntl.co.uk/site/7-days-with-jack-murray/ ). I'm writing in the hope I can perhaps persuade you to look elsewhere for a more suitable site.

While these quarries may appear to be a deserted and dead industrial wasteland they are in fact anything but, they are frequently visited and their strange beauty treasured by generations of visitors. There exists a delicate truce between the runners, walkers and rock climbers that visit and value this site, the landowners and their security personnel. This has been arrived via careful negotiation and much restraint on the part of both parties over many years. Visitors to these historic sites treasure them as they are and bring significant economic activity to an economically deprived region.

I'm writing as just one of those hundreds people who's enjoyment of and access to this landscape will be negatively impacted by your work. This is not an appropriate canvas for your work. Please consider the effect of your plan on this delicate agreement and the effect of lost access on the users of these beautiful old landscapes and on the local businesses supported in part by visitors to the quarries.

Please explore, enjoy the quarries but leave them as you found them, a piece of living local history for others to do the same.

--
Kind regards,
James Karran
cap'nChino - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to Liam Brown)
> I have trouble getting worked up over a bit of paint on the wall when a) it's a massive man-made hole in the ground and b) climbers are constantly sticking metal bolts in the walls.

I can see your point. But the bolts are barely visible, I spend too long trying to find the bloody things and the big hole in the ground is now a major land mark and has a lot of heritage with it.
Graffiti is a bit self-gratuitous for my likings and doing it in a national park isn’t the most appropriate place.

I am a bit hypocritical on this because I have in the past voiced vigorous support for Banksy. This fella just seems to be a bit of a young upstart. I would like to think he didn’t know what he was doing when defacing the wall.
cap'nChino - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to jkarran: Nice one James. Reasonable and polite.
adamki - on 30 Oct 2012
you have to watch emailing graffiti artists... the more people dont want it, the more they want to do it, these people shouldn't be allowed to leave the cities.
jkarran - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to adamki:

Staying silent does nothing.
jk
alooker - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: man's gonna get dry tooled fam
rodgit on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to jkarran:
An excellent response James.
Jack now has the opportunity to recognise and acknowlege his mistake.
Please keep the rest of us posted if you hear further.
Rog
Tom Last - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to adamki)
>
> Staying silent does nothing.
> jk

Agreed, good work.
Landy_Dom on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

OMG he'll ruin it for everyone!

have emailed in the same vein as JKarran
jezb1 - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: So what's the best way to get this off without damaging the rock?
Mark Reeves - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: Can I suggest that everyone posts a message of disaproval on the blog which is quoted above and send the actual artist a polite message asking if he wouldn't deface an area of great beauty. his website is here:

http://www.jack-murray.com
Landy_Dom on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

A reply:

Thank you for your emails it is interesting to hear your views on this matter and i'm glad you decided to communicate with me in a respectful manner as lot of people on your forum were talking like silly tough guys.

Anyway i'd be happy to reply to those who contacted me about this. Firstly i'd like to state that i am very appreciative of nature and like to think that i respect it as much as the next conscious person does. Here are my reasons why i would still feel morally in tact with painting on the quarry. The quarry was once an untouched mountain but during the industrial revolution, man went up onto it and smashed tunnels into it, layed down tracks, built machines on it and took away vast amounts of rock from it. So from that point it is no longer an untouched mountain range but a mountain that has been disrupted by humans and essentially turned into a building site for hundreds of years. It is only now that people like myself and others find it interesting and beautiful, because it is a derelict work site on a glorious mountain that echoes an era and industry from the past. Do you think when that quarry was open and in use people wanted to go and see it? Most probably not i'm sure we can agree. So with that in mind why would me painting artwork on to some of the rock faces with no other objective other than to add to this site in a beautiful way, not be of interest to explorers in the future when my era is dead and gone?

Lets not forget that people throughout history have been applying artwork on to rock faces. Cavemen painted on them. Aztecs and Incas painted and carved into them and the list goes on. I'm not saying that people of my cultural generation will be as relevant as tribes of people in the past who have painted on to rock faces, but who is to say?

I don't think i will come back to Llanberis to paint anymore as i can see that there will be lots of upset people but if i did paint artwork there or if someone did in the future, you should not act like they've shat on mother nature for the reasons stated.

Hope this finds you well.

Kind regards.

Jack Murray

Landy_Dom on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Just to clarify, the reply was copied and pasted from an email reply from the artist, in response to me emailing him suggesting the proposed art was a terible idea. I do not represent him, just relaying his reply. Thanks.
Frogger - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to jkarran:

Nice one James, let's hope he has some intelligence and reponds accordingly!


The quarry may have been created by man, but the rock is natural, and the area is still a thing of natural beauty. It should therefore be treated as such.
ads.ukclimbing.com
alunallcock on 30 Oct 2012
Looks like its too late!


[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/1zve9mh.jpg[/IMG]
alx - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to alunallcock: is this a hoax?
Landy_Dom on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to alunallcock:
> Looks like its too late!
>
>
> [IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/1zve9mh.jpg[/IMG]

please GOD tell me this is photoshopped.
jolivague - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

If that reply is for real then I think he's made a pretty reasonable point, fair play to him
Jonny2vests - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to jolivague:
> (In reply to Liam Brown)
>
> If that reply is for real then I think he's made a pretty reasonable point, fair play to him

Which point are you referring to? Can't say I spotted any reasonable points.
mrchewy - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: Oh god - here we go, another UKC festival of a thousand posts dissecting the artists reply.

Rory Shaw - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to alunallcock: your a bad man allan. To be honest a bit of arty graffiti in the quarries wouldn't worry me too much as long as its not slap in the middle of classic routes. Those that know the quarries have seen plenty of graffiti there - lot of bits round never never land and watford gap, the anarchy sign on manic strain etc.
Rory Shaw - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Rory Shaw: just spoken to a friend in llanberis who confirmed that the graffiti on the rainbow slab is for real!
mkean - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Rory Shaw:
If that is true it is pretty dire, I can't think of a worse location for a massive crude tag. I like a bit of graffiti when it is in the right place but that is crap.
davo - on 30 Oct 2012
That reply is a right load of crap that he has cobbled together to try and justify the fact that he has made a bit of an error of judgement by not doing some research about the quarries beforehand.

I have also emailed him (politely) and left a message on that website.

Cheers Dave
SAF - on 30 Oct 2012
>
> I don't think i will come back to Llanberis to paint anymore as i can see that there will be lots of upset people but if i did paint artwork there or if someone did in the future, you should not act like they've shat on mother nature for the reasons stated.
>

His final paragraph it would seem that the only way in which he has backed down is by not coming back Llanberis (probably out of fear due to the unexpected response he has recieved), he is still clearly incapable of understanding what the slate quarries mean to people in North Wales.


The arguements against his graffiti are not simply from an environmental perspective, but also Welsh Heritage (362 welsh men died in those quarries), climbing history, and as mentioned by other's, years of hard work and negotations that have gone on in order to allow us to play up there.

Hopefully he'll stay 6 hours away in London from now on!!
Andy Say - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to zero six:
> (In reply to Liam Brown) 'Just wondering how people feel about 20ft graffitti murals in the slate quarries.
>
> I feel pretty relaxed about it, the quarries make a natural canvas for graffiti and the little mural in the photo looks to have improved the wall to me, it would be cool to see some more colourful artwork however.
>
> Climbers and non-climbers alike have been doing stuff like this in the slate quarries around Llanberis for years. Some of the climbs are more artful expression than natural line. An incongruous and gigantic grey hole blasted out of the side of a mountain in the middle of a beautiful green valley makes this venue a magnet for people to express and create, whether that's by creating climbs, graffiti or shit Hollywood films.

There are many art works and installations in the quarries now - but maybe subtle and hidden from the un-enquiring eye. There were certainly several paintings just down from Dali's last time I looked as well as slate sculptures of flowers etc.

The difference is, I think, they have been created with a sense of place rather than the acquisitive eye of the random visitor.
gethin_allen on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
His reasoning that someone else dug it up so he can bugger it up is quite frankly pathetic. Using this logic we should all go and dawn paint all over his "art", it's already sh!t so we can't go wrong.
spidermonkey09 - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

More to the point- how can we get that shitty graffiti off the rainbow slab and the sidings?
Thats nothing less than desecration. It is one thing to stick graffiti on an old train tunnel or bus shelter, quite another on a beautiful natural landscape like the quarries.
Spewing.
Graeme Hammond - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to alunallcock:
> Looks like its too late!
>
>
> [IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/1zve9mh.jpg[/IMG]

I fell quite angry about this, in this context this in not art it is unwanted graffiti. I do hope that this is prosecutable is some way! and can can be removed quickly before anyone else gets the impression that this is acceptable or will be tolerated.
Double Knee Bar - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Landy_Dom: It looks 'shopped to me. I hope it is.
Tom Last - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Double Knee Bar:

I agree.

The graffiti is face on to the viewer, whereas the rainbow slab is tapering away into the distance. The sort of effect you see with adverts on cricket pitches, why do it here?

There's maybe a hint of some artifacts for a couple of pixels around the edge of the graffiti. Lighten it up in PS and you can see them on the graffiti's upper edge.

Pretty good timing to coincide with a UKC flaming no?

Also, the link is a tinyurl, where's the original please?

Why is there a climber bouldering out the start of the Rainbow, seemingly unconcerned about the vandalism happening above?

Why have they abseiled into an intermediate stance on Bungle's Arete, rather just abbing from the top? I reckon the 'artist' is in fact a climber working the route on the Rainbow.

My money is on a hoax.
muppetfilter - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Southern Man: It is a photoshop... you wouldnt be able to paint that with that rope setup ;0) Its hard enough on ropes with just one colour of paint.
airbournegrapefruit on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to Southern Man: I reckon there are two climbers on the route :)
Tom Last - on 30 Oct 2012
In reply to muppetfilter:
> (In reply to Southern Man) It is a photoshop... you wouldnt be able to paint that with that rope setup ;0) Its hard enough on ropes with just one colour of paint.

Yeah good point and why would he hanging about six feet below his work anyway? Load of bollox.
edwardwoodward - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Landy_Dom:
Shame. I would have liked to see what he could do up there.
Has anybody contacted the quarry owner to find out if out this would be any more likely to threaten access to the quarries than the activities of climbers?

Oh, and congratulations as appropriate for taking the Rainbow Slab photo seriously.
>
> I don't think i will come back to Llanberis to paint anymore as i can see that there will be lots of upset people but if i did paint artwork there or if someone did in the future, you should not act like they've shat on mother nature for the reasons stated.
>
> Hope this finds you well.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> Jack Murray

Blue Straggler - on 31 Oct 2012
I'm tickled by the anti-London stance here. Would your reactions have been milder had he been a Conwy resident, for example?

Blue Straggler - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Liam Brown)
>

Excellent work James. I hope you aren't insulted that I've made a few corrections to your email (I guess you've sent it by now, and judging by the mail from Jack that I read above, he wouldn't have paid much heed to minor grammatical slips!)


>
Hello Jack,
>
I'm not sure how to start this but it has come to my attention that you are considering a large scale painting on the walls of the Dinorwic Slate quarries, North Wales ( http://bntl.co.uk/site/7-days-with-jack-murray/ ). I'm writing in the hope I can perhaps persuade you to look elsewhere for a more suitable site.

While these quarries may appear to be a deserted and dead industrial wasteland they are in fact anything but. They are frequently visited and their strange beauty treasured by generations of visitors. There exists a delicate truce between the runners, walkers and rock climbers that visit and value this site, and the landowners and their security personnel. This has been arrived at via careful negotiation and much restraint on the part of both parties over many years. Visitors to these historic sites treasure them as they are and bring significant economic activity to an economically deprived region.

I'm writing as just one of those hundreds of people whose enjoyment of, and access to, this landscape will be negatively impacted by your work. This is not an appropriate canvas for your work. Please consider the effect of your plan on this delicate agreement and the effect of lost access on the users of these beautiful old landscapes and on the local businesses supported in part by visitors to the quarries.

Please explore, enjoy the quarries but leave them as you found them, a piece of living local history for others to do the same.

myth - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: In reply to Liam Brown:

To Jack.

I know you are reading this thread.

Please consider your actions completely before you decide to ply your trade in these quarries.

The tough guys on this forums are just very passionate about preserving the areas they have fought so hard to gain access to and being the outdoorsie type they don't like to see un natural things in natural areas. It's very much part of our ethos as climbers/hikers etc.

You will be cause a lot of upset and potential problems for thousands of people over the years if you go ahead. Is your art so important that you can't create it in a more appropriate area?

The national park is already a beautiful area, I don't think many people will see your art as a welcome contribution.

I've seen some of your none graffiti work and it's very good, you don't need to make a name for yourself this way.

I am glad you are reconsidering your 20ft art work, I just hope it's a permanent decision.

Myth
mikekeswick - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: He sounds like a self centered, egotistical tit to me...
The rainbow slab picture is too dodge to be real. Poor sense of humour.
jkarran - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> Excellent work James. I hope you aren't insulted that I've made a few corrections to your email (I guess you've sent it by now, and judging by the mail from Jack that I read above, he wouldn't have paid much heed to minor grammatical slips!)

Not at all. I was chopping it about as I wrote it moving words around and removing bits as I calmed down. On re-reading later it I realised it was basically illegible. Mildly embarrassing but C'est la vie.

jk
In reply to myth:
> they don't like to see un natural things in natural areas.

The slate quarries 'natural' - that is an interesting idea.


Chris
abcdefg - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> The slate quarries 'natural' - that is an interesting idea.

They are what they are; why not just leave them that way?

I hope you're not giving succour to the idea of graffiti in old quarries - otherwise, a large number of British crags dear to both of our hearts would be in danger of being painted over ...
gethin_allen on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> I'm tickled by the anti-London stance here. Would your reactions have been milder had he been a Conwy resident, for example?

Personally it annoys me more that someone so removed from the area drives 6 hrs to the place and then on the first visit decides to take such actions and tries to justify his position with such flawed logic.
pasbury on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I agree, and have some sympathy with the idea of art in the quarries. Climbers have taken some liberties here compared with natural crags, routes have been chipped or manufactured, heavy cleaning has gone on and a bolting ethic was worked out on the walls themselves.
The quarries are unique and are a still living piece of human history. They are also not static, the quarry infrastructure is gradually decaying and whole sections are geologically active.
I can't see what this guy's work looks like (work website filter) but some art that commented on the form or history of the place would not be out of place. Of course he'd have to respect the other users of the place e.g. not paint over the quarryman groove!
Would it be a problem if, say, Antony Gormley wanted to make an installation there?
abcdefg - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to pasbury:

> I can't see what this guy's work looks like (work website filter) but some art that commented on the form or history of the place would not be out of place.

The graffiti that he left in the quarry is a piece of 'tag' art in his usual style. There is no context at all. As he writes: "I brought some paint with me and dropped a little something at the highest point we got to." To me, that just sounds like marking territory.

> Would it be a problem if, say, Antony Gormley wanted to make an installation there?

For me, yes. Gormley is one of the most self-regarding and least reflective artists I can think of. Please keep him safely locked up in galleries, if at all possible.

jkarran - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to pasbury:

The existing painting is not sympathetic. While not unattractive it's just a continuation of his existing urban painting, very much out of place in this environment.

You only have to look at the graffiti, chipping, over-bolting and general vandalism already there to see how undesirable trends rapidly gather an unstoppable momentum if not challenged promptly.

The current access situation is delicate at best, any action jeopardizing that needs to be challenged.

While it is very much a decaying human landscape the shapes, colours and textures that have been left behind now form some of the most dramatic scenery in the park. Yes it's an old quarry, yes it's already suffered much abuse but it's also a staggeringly beautiful memorial to the tens of thousands that lived, worked and often died there. It does not need to be 'enhanced', it needs to be treasured and cared for.

jk
FrankBooth - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
Incredibly selfish stuff. If anyone fancies paying him a visit here's the chaps's website http://jack-murray.com/index.html

He's exhibited at a number of galeries (see website) - maybe a couple of climbers should pop in to his next private view.
jkarran - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:

> He's exhibited at a number of galeries (see website) - maybe a couple of climbers should pop in to his next private view.

He's responded reasonably to my email. Perhaps sleeping dogs should now be left to lie.

jk
unclesamsauntibess - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: Redhead started it. Blame him.
Liam Brown - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to jkarran:

That's my feeling. Clearly the difference in opinion could be potentially problematic if he planned to go back. However, he has said he won't and to me that seems sufficient.

Personally, I'm not angered by his action or his position, given I think its informed by an experience of growing up and living exclusively in London and working as a graffitti artist, the latter of which demands him to take entrenched positions in similar (although crucially differnt) discussions. I think we forget how alien our own experience can be to other people.

Thanks for emailing James. It seems to have been helpful.
Macka21 - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

He has advertised this space to hundreds. Hopefully nobody else will come to this site to ‘paint’.

As a photographer, painter, rock climber and great lover of nature and the mountains I say this is wrong. He clearly did not do his research as an artist should.
He should scrub away this deed.
deepsoup - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:
> Redhead started it. Blame him.

Plenty was said about Redhead at the time and since.

Obviously he didn't start this though, the artist in question clearly knows nothing about the quarries (look at the way his blog talks of "seeking them out" for goodness sake, the daft bugger actually seems to think he discovered Dinorwig in some sense). I'd be utterly gobsmacked if, in his ignorance, he's ever heard of John Redhead.
deepsoup - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> The slate quarries 'natural' - that is an interesting idea.

Pah, what is "natural" anyway?
Arguably not any landscape you can see in the UK, though there are few *so* obviously shaped by people as the slate quarries.

The quarries are, in a sense, returning to 'nature'. Its not a word I like to use much but they are also, in a sense, sacred.

I don't see how an artist can produce a site-specific work of art from a position of such profound ignorance. This isn't a work of art, its a two-legged tom cat pissing up the wall to mark his passing. It expresses nothing but the vanity of the 'artist'. Sad.
davo - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
> Pah, what is "natural" anyway?
> Arguably not any landscape you can see in the UK, though there are few *so* obviously shaped by people as the slate quarries.
>
> The quarries are, in a sense, returning to 'nature'. Its not a word I like to use much but they are also, in a sense, sacred.
>
> I don't see how an artist can produce a site-specific work of art from a position of such profound ignorance. This isn't a work of art, its a two-legged tom cat pissing up the wall to mark his passing. It expresses nothing but the vanity of the 'artist'. Sad.

Well put!
Jon Ratcliffe - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to FrankBooth: I am astounded by climber's self righteousness on here. What exactly gives climbers from all over the UK more right to bolt and climb in the quarries than an artist to paint in them? Both have occurred over the years. With regard to respect for the quarries we chip, trundle and drill and group there disturbing other users and the quarries unusual ambience; he choses to paint, as like us they have inspired him in some way.

Now I am not saying I want this particular artist to come and paint a massive mural on the Rainbow or that I even agree with what he says but we need to consider our own position.
Calling him a dick, a tosser etc is pathetic in my opinion. These are unintelligent insults backed up only by our own self righteousness.

Interestingly it is he that has been humble enough to call off his plans, yet he is still called 'selfish'.

I applaud those who emailed him with a measured response to his blog despite their views of his art, opinions or previous actions.

Interestingly it is us as climbers that have made an access problem worse by OUR behavior. It is worth remembering that there still isn't an actual climbers access agreement for the quarries worked out and agreed with First Hydro and the BMC other than climbing is 'tolerated' albeit with many constraints and a constant threat of this tolerance being retracted.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/ViewCrag.aspx?id=583

Here it clearly states that climbers should avoid gathering in groups of more than ten in any one area. I for one have seen groups of more than ten at the sidings which ironically is where his painting seems to be.




franksnb - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe: agreed
Liam Brown - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

For sure. With hindsight, I'd send this straight to the BMC rather than put it on here again.
Bulls Crack - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Well said.

A similar, if less conventional, situation to the Simon Armitage poems eg at Cows Mouth Quarry whic, having been to see it, is great...imo


http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=207679
nw - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to davo:
PMSL at some of the responses on that blog:

'Mate, keep your f’in hands well clear of the slate or else I suspect you will regret it. Is that a threat? Yes. Be in no doubt, climbers will protect these irreplaceable landscapes in any way required…'

I understand why people don't like what he's done, but seriously...grow the f' up,
partz - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Think Jon's hit it on the head here. And Jacks also has a point, Dinorwig is man made, just like a building. I am disheartened that its happened, the historic area now is tainted with a modern blemish, but again as Jon said we don't monopolise it! If graffiti artists found the quarries first I'm sure most people wouldn't think twice about bolting it!

Jack has called off his plans which is great... but does it matter? if the rainbow slab pic is real or fake, how long will it be before it erupts with new artwork?

One final note though, how would graffiti artists act if climbers (hypothetically) started urban climbing/bolting other artworks? Like a banksy mural or similar? The only solution I can think of is a 'dibs' rule: whoever gets there first wins.

Bring forth the shit storm!
Kemics - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

I would say 90% of this thread is internet posturing/storm in a tea cup. I doubt anyone would say this were they actually to meet in person. My local crag has the graffiti referenced in the guidebooks for route descriptions. I thought his response was better articulated than most on here. Now I personally would rather it wasn't there as a climber, but I'm aware my opinion might not be shared by everyone.
sstrong42 on 31 Oct 2012 - 99-41-94-235.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net
I'm an American watching this situation from afar. I posted this comment on the blog utilizing Mr. Murray's response to the email that was sent to him by one of the members.

>>>>
While Mr. Murray might feel that human impact in the slate quarries and the history of industrial exploitation of the environment might justify his foray into defacing and damaging a resource, it does not. While post-modern concepts might apply to a decaying urban landscape, those rules do not apply in places where natural resources have been pulled from the Earth by men.

The visual signs of human interaction with the environment in these areas is important to telling the story of moments in human history in which man over-stepped his place and exploited the environment. These things are reminders to future generations that while human dominance of the environment does happen, the return of these places to their wild beginnings also shows future generations that nature can overcome our intrusions and indiscretions and return itself to a pristine state for folks to enjoy.

That being said, Mr. Murray, you defaced a natural resource, not a decaying urban environment. With a can of paint, you single-handedly put access to a beautiful place at risk for an entire country. Your actions show a lack of understanding of natural places and a lack of connection to those natural places, as well as to the people that love and use them without making extreme impact on the surrounding environment.

Your actions are going to be met with a lack of civility equal to that of which you showed to these beautiful quarries. Obviously you expected this, but probably not at the level at which you’re experiencing it. You have a choice now. You can either continue to show how disconnected you are from the world and the others that enjoy these places that you’ve damaged, or you can understand how and why people are upset and work with them to ensure that an entire country does not suffer as a result of your actions. Because your simple act was not the artistic endeavor you claim to it is. It was an act of ignorance and an act of vandalism with far-reaching implications for people that you will soon come to know quite well.
<<<<

stujamo - on 31 Oct 2012

> I'm writing as just one of those hundreds people who's enjoyment of and access to this landscape will be negatively impacted by your work. This is not an appropriate canvas for your work. Please consider the effect of your plan on this delicate agreement and the effect of lost access on the users of these beautiful old landscapes and on the local businesses supported in part by visitors to the quarries.
>
> Please explore, enjoy the quarries but leave them as you found them, a piece of living local history for others to do the same

Can you get this going as some sort of e-petiton?
I'm pretty useless at technology and it seems you choice of words may get through to him(and his hangers-on),rather than calling him a cock(which he probably is)and make him(and his hangers-on) aware of the access issues?
As a BMC member,I'll be contacting them (though someone else probably has already)to ask them to write to him too.
Cheers,
Stu
sstrong42 on 31 Oct 2012 - 99-41-94-235.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net
I think there's a difference between a crag that's situated in an urban area, like Stoney Point in Los Angeles (I'm using American areas since I'm American.) It's smack dab in the middle of LA, right off the highway and it's littered with graffiti. But, as I understand it, these quarries are like abandon mines. Places turned back over to nature after human incursion into it, not an urban crag.

I'm a fan of modern art in all facets, including graffiti. There's a time and a place for it. If this guy was really wanting to be an artist and leave his interpretation of his experience on the environment, he could have found much less obnoxious ways to do it. He certainly could have utilized the environment itself to leave his mark. Why not use pieces of slate or bits of human detritus lying around to make art from that?

In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to Liam Brown)
>
> I would say 90% of this thread is internet posturing/storm in a tea cup. I doubt anyone would say this were they actually to meet in person. My local crag has the graffiti referenced in the guidebooks for route descriptions. I thought his response was better articulated than most on here. Now I personally would rather it wasn't there as a climber, but I'm aware my opinion might not be shared by everyone.


sstrong42 on 31 Oct 2012 - 99-41-94-235.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net
In reply to stujamo:
>
> [...]
>
> Can you get this going as some sort of e-petiton?
> I'm pretty useless at technology and it seems you choice of words may get through to him(and his hangers-on),rather than calling him a cock(which he probably is)and make him(and his hangers-on) aware of the access issues?
> As a BMC member,I'll be contacting them (though someone else probably has already)to ask them to write to him too.
> Cheers,
> Stu

Official contact needs to be made with this guy by all the parties that have a stake in access. Everyone, including the land owners, need to sit down and have a civil chat with him to discuss the impact he's had, what can be done to make this situation a good one, and how to better protect the access going forward.
jkarran - on 31 Oct 2012
FFS, I really hope people haven't been emailing him the sort of aggressive menacing messages that have appeared on that blog :(

Time for some perspective and restraint folks!

He's been asked politely and he's said he'll drop his plans.

We don't need to hound him,
jk
Jon Ratcliffe - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to sstrong42: No offense intended but why are you getting involved dear chap? You seem to want to fan the flames to what was an almost extinguished fire.

Also well said jkarren.

If the rest of you writing offensive messages on his blog don't stop it will be you I'll be blaming if he came up and rebelled against your sentiments. Lord knows what he thinks of climbers now. Who exactly are starting to look like 'tossers' now?

This is getting very Daily Mail...
stujamo - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to stujamo: I should read the whole thread before commenting on the thread...
sstrong42 on 31 Oct 2012 - 99-41-94-235.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net

In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to sstrong42) No offense intended but why are you getting >involved dear chap? You seem to want to fan the flames to what was an >almost extinguished fire.
>

Well, these kinds of access issues are a very big deal here in the US, since there's far less actual public land and we are more at the whim of land owners than climbers in other countries. Hueco Tanks for instance is a place where access is incredibly tenuous and climbers are impacted by local El Pasoans defacing ancient rock art. If this kind of thing happened in a National Park here, it would result in folks landing federal charges.

Perhaps my tone was a bit much, but I certainly do encourage official meetings between the respective groups in order to establish a better understanding. That's how we do it here in the States and it works out pretty well. In a lot of cases of defacement, meetings between folks work out really well and establish a better relationship between the parties involved. He might have called off his plans for a bigger piece, but he still created another situation that has a farther reaching impact.
Frogger - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> The slate quarries 'natural' - that is an interesting idea.


Really surprised that you of all people don't value the natural beauty of the quarries. Some of the slate may have been removed by man, but man didn't make the slate.

Would you apply the same reasoning to other mountains after any type of rockfall?


Bulls Crack - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Frogger:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
>
> Really surprised that you of all people don't value the natural beauty of the quarries. Some of the slate may have been removed by man, but man didn't make the slate.
>
> Would you apply the same reasoning to other mountains after any type of rockfall?


you wouldn't have seen much slate if it hadn't been for the quarrying!

Where's the graffitti of the angel? That's wonderful
biscuit - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

A lot of people on here remind me of football fans. Shouting all sorts of threats at each other whilst separated by 2 fences and a row of police.

Is anyone aware of the telecommunications act ? If you make threats via the internet it's just as illegal as doing it face to face. Not that any of you would have the bottle to do that.

It's a strong word but the actions of many fellow climbers over this topic disgust me.

Well done JK by the way.
In reply to Frogger:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
>
> Really surprised that you of all people don't value the natural beauty of the quarries. Some of the slate may have been removed by man, but man didn't make the slate.
>

What makes you think I don't value the quarries, where did I say as much? I made a statement that they are not 'natural' - no more, no less.


Chris
dunc56 - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: A couple of links worth a read for people from Sheffield.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/graffiti-artists-sentence-brings-no-joy-to-persecutor...

http://archipelago-art.co.uk/id67.html

This young fellow did untold damage in Sheffield tagging. Was put in prison. Is out now and making money from his "Art".
Jon Ratcliffe - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to sstrong42: It may have happened within a National Park but it also happened on private land that we as climbers have no right to climb on. We are indeed trespassers ourselves, albeit tolerated to a degree. We don't have federal charges here either. This is NOT America. Encouraging official meeting is opf course a splendid idea but overkill here as the artist already said he wasn't coming again.


I am ashamed as a climber for what some of you have written on his blog AFTER he decided to not come back to paint as a response to your initial pleas.

Not only are some of your comments very aggressive and truly pathetic but some sound like they're from folk with subscriptions to Horse and Hound and the Daily Mail; with remarks about him being a 'city boy' and even 'lynching'. This subject may get wider press and coverage and lord only knows what others would think of climbers if they read this thread and comments on his blog. I for one would not want to be associated with you who have written such unintelligent and ignorant drivel. Most of you didn't even post your own names, pathetic.

highclimber - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: John Redhead to the forum please!
crisp - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
On a slightly different note, I recently spilt exterior pain on a slate window sill. What is the best way to remove it? Meths, White spirit?
gd303uk - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: +1. Although I can understand the worry .and anger voiced by some.
I think the artist didn't realise what the quarries are about and to be fair If I was him and thought I had found a disused building site I would think it fair game, etc.
I am not condoning what has happened he isn't the first and will not be the last,
He seams like a good bloke , after realising the upset, he has agreed not to go ahead with more work , I think this shows an understanding to the concerns voiced, I don't think it would do any good to bombard him with aggressive posts or emails, he made a mistake he was not to know.

Graham


now about the Graf on the kaban, that is out of order. ;)
highclimber - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to gd303uk: whether he knew it or not, graffiti is just that - Vandalism. The artist will have known that the place is frequented by people and most people, myself included, abhor graffiti.

It's not art: it's just vandalism.
mr mills - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Well said Jon, bunch of hypocrites....
jimjimjim on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to crisp: could be tough one to shift but your best bet is paint stripper. Work it in with a paint brush and wash with water, repeat....
stujamo - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe: Good point well put John. I must admit, I didn't like what he'd done, and was relieved that he's decided not to continue.I have my own opinion of his actions, but apart from voicing that on here,would stop well short of threats, as you said it makes us all look bad and won't solve anything,
Cheers,
Stu
Ramblin dave - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to highclimber:
> (In reply to gd303uk) whether he knew it or not, graffiti is just that - Vandalism. The artist will have known that the place is frequented by people and most people, myself included, abhor graffiti.
>
> It's not art: it's just vandalism.

Whereas bolting bits of metal into the rock at strategic intervals is "development".
zero six - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to the badger: Jon you're almost the only one talking sense on this thread, which turned daily hate almost straight away. There's some sad, sad uptight people on this thread and website, displaying self-righteous views that make climbers look like a horrible bunch of xenophobic shites with massive senses of entitlement. Xenophobia - fear of that which is foreign or strange, the art might be pretty uninspiring but the almost fascist reaction to it here is magnitudes worse. Truly pathetic. What do you all think new-routing is if not one of the ultimate forms of pissing up a tree? We produce whole books dedicated to recording claims over bits of rock (some on land we don't have rights of access to) - from the outside it would look ridiculous to some people. Climbers aren't any more righteously entitled to mark their territories in this way than the object of hate 'the city boy' is entitled to put a tag on the start of one of the Chief Pisser on of Trees's sidings sport routes. It's a big hole, broad church, space for all quirks, probably best not to be encouraged but not deserving of some of the idiotic bile written on here.
Rory Shaw - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe: Jon, as ever you are a bright light shining in a fog of ignorance, hyperbole and self righteous bullshit. People of UKC take note - listen to Jon.
Jim at Work on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
Jon, thanks for your good initial work in sending a fair-minded email to the 'artist'. It is usually most effective to be reasonable early on rather than go nuclear at the last moment (cf noisy neighbours). I suppose all I'd add is that perhaps he should consider that paint on an establshed climb will alter the friction available, perhaps ruining s popular route. And, if he badly wants to 'amend' an artwork, perhaps he should try a Rothko, (sp) and see what happens... :)
SAF - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
Here's a current example (in Mostyn Docks, North Wales)

http://www.dudug.co.uk/

of were a Graffiti artists has gone to the trouble of finding a disused structure, that's not held in high regard by the locals (anything but), and doing something that in my opinion improves it. I'm also of the opinion that the artists skills are of a significantly higher level than Jacks.

Maybe Jack could learn something from this example, and put a little bit more thought into were and what he paints in the future.

Graffiti in the right setting can look awesome, the Slate Quarries are NOT the right setting!!!
IainRUK - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to highclimber: Aye.. good point.. in general I think Jon nails this one. Grafiti and the slate quarries aren't strangers.. afterall just go to the barracks most locals have their name inscribed. I've not seen it in person so won't comment, but climbers have certainly also grafiti'd in the quarries.. plenty of route names plus other stuff..
cuppatea on 01 Nov 2012

Would it be alright to paint numbers and arrows to show here the routes are?

*Innocent smile winky smilie thing*
andyb211 - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to cuppatea:
>
> Would it be alright to paint numbers and arrows to show here the routes are?
>
> *Innocent smile winky smilie thing*

Excellent idea and can we have some pink bolt ons and extra bolts at the hard bits which I clip while holding the quickdraw below like at the climbing wall ;0)
cuppatea on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Good! And Pof?

Not sure about the pink though ... but others will no doubt disagree
ERU - on 02 Nov 2012
Does anyone know if this guy is related to John Redhead? "Putting something back..."
Sarah G on 02 Nov 2012

Graffiti is just vandalism.

As an "art" style, the only place for it is on a canvas. anywhere else, it is just vandalism. end of.

Sxx
teflonpete - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

6 hours to get from Soho to Llanberis?

Wouldn't worry about any 20 foot high repeats of his 'art', I should think cycling all that way carrying a ladder will be enough to put off a return!
obi-wan nick b - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Sarah G: You should visit Bristol
metal arms on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Sarah G:
>
> Graffiti is just vandalism.
>
> As an "art" style, the only place for it is on a canvas. anywhere else, it is just vandalism. end of.
>
> Sxx

Nice.

Are all of these 'just vandalism' - http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/14/tribute-to-graffiti-50-beautiful-graffiti-artworks/

Can you only find proper art on canvas? Frescos and murals have been drawn on buildings and walls for a long long time. Did you just mean that you don't like Graffiti? I don't like lots of classical music but I recognise it as music, lots of things in life are a matter of taste.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Sarah G: In reply to Sarah G: Oh dear Sarah you're not the sharpest tool on the box are you dear?
Therefore I will explain clearly it for you:

'Tagging', or just signing your name isn't art, this is often called Graffiti but is no different than signing your name on a canvass, this is not art its just signing your name and yes it is also vandalism.

Graffiti or 'Street art' is painting a 'picture', an art work, using paint onto a canvass, just like 'conventional' art but this time the canvass is often a wall and is by a matter of fact usually illegal and therefore considered vandalism by law. It can, shock horror, still be art legal or not.

If your favourite artist painted a lovely picture on a wall without permission would this also not be art to you because from a legal point of view it is vandalism? No of course not.

A creative painting is art whatever the canvass. Whether we like it or not or whether it's legal is irrelevant

There you go Sarah. Thank you for your valuable and intelligent contribution to the thread. Please call again.

Jxx
abcdefg - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe: In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

My word this a strange thread!

Jon, *you* are now in danger of sounding a little self-righteous. Maybe back off a tad?

As point of order, you write "Tagging', or just signing your name isn't art". You're wrong there: it *is* art, if that's what the person doing it says it is - Duchamp taught us that. Whether or not it's *good* art is another question entirely.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to abcdefg: You're right, I think reading that Sarah likes fox hunting kinda made me want to wind her up a little. After reading what was written on that guys blog by some folks on here I guess I'm still a little reactive myself towards such attitudes. And yes, we could start the whole 'what is art' thing but I was trying to keep it simple.

PebblePusher - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms:

Whilst I see a lot of talent has gone into the artwork on that link I can quite happily say that most of it is vandalism. If you are painting onto something that you don't own, without the permision or request from the owner of that property, then you are a vandal.

I quite like some of the pictures and admire the talent required to do it but it has no place where it is. A big part of the attraction to those who admire it and those who do it is in the anarchy of the act. That's the bit I don't like.

Chris
MeMeMe - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms:
> (In reply to Sarah G)
> [...]
>
> Nice.
>
> Are all of these 'just vandalism' - http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/14/tribute-to-graffiti-50-beautiful-graffiti-artworks/
>


Thanks for the link, some wonderful stuff.

I wouldn't worry about Sarah's post, it's a pretty good rule of thumb that if you disagree with her you're on the side of tolerance, justice and enlightenment :)
IainRUK - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms:
> (In reply to Sarah G)
> [...]
>
> Nice.
>
> Are all of these 'just vandalism' - http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/09/14/tribute-to-graffiti-50-beautiful-graffiti-artworks/
>
> Can you only find proper art on canvas? Frescos and murals have been drawn on buildings and walls for a long long time. Did you just mean that you don't like Graffiti? I don't like lots of classical music but I recognise it as music, lots of things in life are a matter of taste.

Superb.. "I must not copy what I see on the simpsons" is brilliant!

MeMeMe - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to PebblePusher:
> (In reply to metal arms)
>

> I quite like some of the pictures and admire the talent required to do it but it has no place where it is. A big part of the attraction to those who admire it and those who do it is in the anarchy of the act. That's the bit I don't like.

I can understand what you mean but I think I admire it because it is in exactly the place it should be. I think for this kind of art you can't necessarily disentangle the location from painting, both are part of the art, it wouldn't work if you removed it from where it was and put it on a canvas, or at least it wouldn't work as well, you'd have lost something.

This is different from admiring the anarchy of the act. I have no problem with people improving derelict and neglected places by painting on them whether they have permission or not.
I would have a problem with them painting over the facade of a beautiful public building, or someone's well kept cottage.

The act should improve the location and if it doesn't then it shouldn't be done. Of course 'improvement' is in the eye of the beholder but I guess that's art for you.

PebblePusher - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to MeMeMe:
> (In reply to PebblePusher)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> I can understand what you mean but I think I admire it because it is in exactly the place it should be. I think for this kind of art you can't necessarily disentangle the location from painting, both are part of the art, it wouldn't work if you removed it from where it was and put it on a canvas, or at least it wouldn't work as well, you'd have lost something.

I see what you mean here and the 'canvas' is very important to the art but I'm just not comfortable with the attitude it portrays (or seems to portray to me). "I will do what I want because I like it".

The grafiti in derelict areas you mention may well be an improvement during daylight hours but if you have to walk through such an area at night, in the dark then they give off a seedy and intimidating undertone. It is not nice knowing that someone had time to a spray 20ft masterpiece over there without police interuption, your imagination then runs riot with you!

This is all just my opinion on it but I have lived in areas (both in the UK & abroad) where I had to walk through such places at night and I hated it. It comes back to the legality & anarchy of it for me, it is intimidating! I'm sure the artists would be pleased that they have managed to cause such emotions from their work.

Chris
ads.ukclimbing.com
zero six - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to the thread:
I knew climbers had got more and more 'middle-of-the-road' over the years but I'm genuinely surprised by how many posters there are on here expressing concern over graffiti because of its 'anarchic' and 'illegal' status; I hadn't realised the average climber was so mundane but there you go, maybe it's just the ones on here? I can only assume you'd self-flagellate if you thought you might be breaking any laws, such as speeding to go climbing.

The other thing I can't quite figure out is how some people are unable to grasp the hypocrisy of holding two completely contradictory beliefs - it's illegal to put paint on a wall which isn't theirs - therefore 'wrong', but for somebody to put 8 bolts and a lower-off in the same wall, without any permission from the landowner, and to call it a 'sport-climbing venue', is right. Beats me.
kevin stephens - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to zero six:

Rock climbs on slate are just as much an artwork as a painting; making a composition and linking those random patterns of hstoric artifacts of match edge holds, subtle dished scoops and angle changes into a dance which gets the climber (hopefully if he/she has the mastery) to complete a journey to the top.

The climbing experience of slate is unique and totally different to any other rock in that there is no grip or friction in between these artifacts.

True; sometimes expansion bolts are used to a greater or lesser degree to ease the mind and protect the body, but these are almost invisble (compared to a painting)to those who enjoy the unique aesthetics of the quaries. In this way different experiences can be enjoyed by differnt groups in the same space without interference of the qualities they seek and appreciate. Graffitti does not manage this trick, the paint actually destroys the other pre-existing artworks (climbs).

Although some respondants to this thread are (maybe with some justification) confrontational, others underline the point that many climbers have a greater appreciation and understanding of of art. If Jack Murray is still reading this google John Redhead; a top artist who more than most has mastered the art of rock climbs on slate.

justmooching on 02 Nov 2012
Christ on a bike, call the daily mail, rise up middle England, its a moral panic, and the end of civilisation! It's a hole in the ground, blasted out with explosives for the sake of profit, co-opted by climbers scarring and disfiguring the resultant rock with bolts. Its not a pristine wllderness. Climbers have no right of ownership, or any claim to high moral ground.
kevin stephens - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

you were asking about Wintours Leap on another thread, similar industrial / post industrial history to Slate. We can send jack down there if you like (bit closer to London for him)
zero six - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:

Precisely illustrating the comic irony of climbers ('vertical canvas', 'rock choreography', 'expression of personality' etc etc etc) getting xenophobic when a different kind of artist appears on their (assumed) territory. The greater irony being that the routes where the graffiti is located are about as far from 'climbing-as-artform' as I can almost ever imagine.

Off out now to spray paint a 60-foot high leprechaun guarding a pot of gold on the Rainbow Slab.
justmooching on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens: it really wouldnt worry me too much. We have above and below ground grafitti on quarried rock going back centuries in the south west. Much of it beautiful, and insightful social commentary. Shall we destroy the mathematical formula carved in the granite near chedwring quarry? Who am i to judge whats worthy?
Jonny2vests - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

> Its not a pristine wllderness.

Pretty much nowhere falls into that category in the UK, so by your reasoning we should let anyone do whatever they want everywhere.

justmooching on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: well, we let climbers destroy fragile flora on cliffs throughout the UK, which also depletes important sites for local fauna. Much more damaging than transient paint. Or is that ok because we climbers do it?
Jonny2vests - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to zero six:

> (In reply to the thread)
> I knew climbers had got more and more 'middle-of-the-road' over the years but I'm genuinely surprised by how many posters there are on here expressing concern over graffiti because of its 'anarchic' and 'illegal' status;

For me, the reason I don't like it is not because of its legality, its because its wank. Which I accept, is a personal opinion (but then not all opinions are equal :-)
Simon Caldwell - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:
> we let climbers destroy fragile flora on cliffs throughout the UK

Actually we declare it an SSSI and would take climbers to court if they damaged it. Which we don't.
justmooching on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: many crags would be reclaimed by nature if it weren't for constant route use and many lines are gardened to keep them open. How many topos do you see with lines cut through moss sheets? Most on SSSIs, AONBs, ESAs, etc. I can't name any prosecutions, can you?
ginsters - on 02 Nov 2012
I've always dreamed I'd wake up one morning open the curtains and see the batman emblem on the dervish slab.

If the guy has something worthwhile doing and is done where its not on a climb or just over the fence so you would have to find itI can't see what the problem is
Jonny2vests - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:
> (In reply to jonny2vests) well, we let climbers destroy fragile flora on cliffs throughout the UK, which also depletes important sites for local fauna. Much more damaging than transient paint. Or is that ok because we climbers do it?

Destroying flora is not restricted to climbers. If we're talking rare species, it should be protected (decided by people who know about that stuff), then access should be controlled somehow. Climbers on the whole I think are better than many at observing and abiding by those sorts of controls, but I agree, we're not saints.

I think randomly painting 'street art' in a treasured area that has a wilderness in its own way (treasured not just by climbers) is in an entirely different league. What controls do they abide by? Are you playing devil's advocate or do you genuinely believe the impact caused by climbing on a cliff is on a par with painting on it?
Jonny2vests - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:
> (In reply to Toreador) many crags would be reclaimed by nature if it weren't for constant route use and many lines are gardened to keep them open. How many topos do you see with lines cut through moss sheets? Most on SSSIs, AONBs, ESAs, etc. I can't name any prosecutions, can you?


Houses and roads would return to nature if you let them. Everything would. Do you perhaps live in a house? Do you weep every time you pull a weed up? The artificial nature of our environment is not restricted to climbing so why do you restrict your sensitivities to that?
justmooching on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to justmooching)
> [...]
Houses and roads would return to nature if you let hem. Everything would. Do you perhaps live in a house? Do you weep every time you pull a weed up? The artificial nature of our environment is not restricted to climbing so why do you restrict your sensitivities to that?

Yes, i do live in a house, and live as ethically as possible there. I wildlife garden local plants, and provide homes for birds, bats, newts, bees, lacewings, ladybirds,
Jonny2vests - on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
> Houses and roads would return to nature if you let hem. Everything would. Do you perhaps live in a house? Do you weep every time you pull a weed up? The artificial nature of our environment is not restricted to climbing so why do you restrict your sensitivities to that?
>
> Yes, i do live in a house, and live as ethically as possible there. I wildlife garden local plants, and provide homes for birds, bats, newts, bees, lacewings, ladybirds,

Well done to you sir. But I assume you don't tiptoe around, you still have 'impact'. Some of which is non-essential, like rock climbing, so you're hardly a white knight. So my question stands, do you think their impact and your impact are equal? Because that's what you were implying. In fact you implied our impact was greater.
Richard Hession on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: looks like said artist still has a way to go to match the artistic genius of 'big prawn c**t' on granny's rock at the breck!
justmooching on 02 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

They both have impacts, both visually and ecologically. In may ways climbing more so. They also both have their merits. Its not my place as a climber to pass judgement on people expressing themselves through parietal art as people have done since palaeolithic times. I don't think either climbing or art has greater precedence. It just seems there's almost a fear of others encroaching on the territory of what climbers perceive as theirs.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: In reply to jonny2vests: I think you'll find it's climbers who were asked to leave regularly by security in the quarries, climbers who were banned due to their impact at Dalis hole (after ignoring BMC number restrictions) and climbers who have current advisory restrictions to their use of the quarries.
I haven't heard of any such specific senarios for graffiti artists?
So which really have the most impact?
I find it is always climbers you hear first in otherwise quiet slate quarries too, not graffiti artists.
I fully agree with zero six's comment about how conventional climbing has become where previously the slightly anarchic action was welcomed and even embraced by the climbing community, now it's shunned and it's illegality seen as purely negative and immoral. I suppose a lot of you would have criticised the illegality of the free parties/ raves that used to frequent the quarries, well attended as a matter of fact by most local climbers. I can see the thread now on here if they still occurred....
Jonny2vests - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

Tell you what, you come and climb my house and I'll tag your front door and we'll see at the end who's more pissed off.
Jonny2vests - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to jonny2vests) In reply to jonny2vests: I think you'll find it's climbers who were asked to leave regularly by security in the quarries, climbers who were banned due to their impact at Dalis hole (after ignoring BMC number restrictions) and climbers who have current advisory restrictions to their use of the quarries.

Dalis was de bolted, nobody got banned. I've never had anything but courtesy from security in the quarries.

> I haven't heard of any such specific senarios for graffiti artists?

That's too idiotic to reply to seriously. I might get accused of troll feeding.

> So which really have the most impact?

From a single event of climbing a route vs painting on one, the latter. Climbers as a whole impact the place in ways no different to other venues and in ways that are generally agreed to be acceptable by the majority of those that care. And I'm sorry, but you're too young to start reminiscing about anarchic days of old.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are always a few here willing to support a misguided tw*t even in very clear cut cases, who might actually read this and spread the good word that 'its fine guys, the climbers are mad for tagging on the crags'. Even the grit dry tooler had a few of them.
zero six - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
Dali's was de-bolted, nobody got banned. That's good then, we pissed off first hydro so much by congregating on private land and creating routes like the worst example's of the F4 at the climbing wall, even after they'd asked us not to, that they built a 10-foot high fence to make sure we didn't return. Great result. That makes climbers look like a bastion of restraint.

Climbers as a whole impact the place in ways no different to other venues... A meaningless statement if 'other venues' have their own access issues created by climbers. Which they do, lots of them.

I don't think anyone's saying 'we're mad for tagging on the crags', (if they were I'd probably question that view), that's a straw man you've built because it's easier to attack than the real point, which is far more nuanced.

In my view you should accept that when you climb in places like the slate quarries you're on private property doing something the landowner doesn't really encourage. Also, despite their stark beauty in my eyes I'm happy that I'm only passing through doing my thing, just like anyone else can if they want to, and it's not climbers' place to be getting all NIMBY over the quarries. If the BMC buys the lease then we'd have more of a case, and if it was Trem/Cloggy/etc etc I'd feel differently. But it isn't.
Personally I have no problem whatsoever with graffiti in the quarries at the moment or realistically what I can see happening in the future. If a gigantic mural appeared on Rainbow Slab (which realistically won't happen) I might not agree with it (unless it was really good in my opinion) but, really, I think I'd be able to see the irony and not feel the need to threaten the perpetrator with physical violence.

btw I think Jon is plenty old-enough to know about stuff, he's ancient!
justmooching on 03 Nov 2012
Done with this thread, this site, and trying to rejoin the climbing community. Thanks to decent folks who answered my wintours leap enquiry, much appreciated. The self righteous, angry, aggressive people on this thread have made me sick. Climbing used to be anarchic, fun, and environmentally aware. Now its just bitter, twisted, xenophobic, with an overactive ego and sense of self entitlement. Basically, it stinks. You can keep it. As it says in 6 foot heigh letters on quarry slab opposite Avon gorge ~bristol against all authority~. Goodbye
Sarah G on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:
> Done with this thread, this site, and trying to rejoin the climbing community. Thanks to decent folks who answered my wintours leap enquiry, much appreciated. The self righteous, angry, aggressive people on this thread have made me sick. Climbing used to be anarchic, fun, and environmentally aware. Now its just bitter, twisted, xenophobic, with an overactive ego and sense of self entitlement. Basically, it stinks. You can keep it. As it says in 6 foot heigh letters on quarry slab opposite Avon gorge ~bristol against all authority~. Goodbye

Ta ra, then.

Blimey, he didn;t last long!!

Sxx
Simon Caldwell - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

Bye.
Jonny2vests - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

You're confusing 'climbing' with 'the Internet'.
jimtitt - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:
> Climbing used to be anarchic, fun, and environmentally destructive.

Corrected that for you.
Climbers from Bristol used to have more staying power as well.
Goucho on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: These quarries are a completely man made rape of the countryside, for commercial gain and profit. They are as artificial as it's possible to get.

They have been blasted, drilled, battered, chipped - initially for slate mining, and then for hydro electric power. Whatever beauty they have, is raw and brutal.

All of this activity has created a wonderful climbing playground, but it was industrial vandalism which created it in the first place.

In the general scheme of this vandalism, a 3 foot mural painted on one part of this huge rock complex, is hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.

My biggest criticism is the artwork itself, which is predictable, clichéd, bland lazy urban ghetto shite - another wannabe Banksy without the accompanying talent.
Bruce Hooker - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

> Or is that ok because we climbers do it?

Yes, why not?
Bruce Hooker - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to justmooching:

> Climbing used to be anarchic, fun, and environmentally aware. Now its just bitter, twisted, xenophobic, with an overactive ego and sense of self entitlement. Basically, it stinks.

We could trundle back then too and no one complained.... I blame it on chalk and climbing walls!


Frustrated,

Ealing.
Jonny2vests - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to zero six:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> Dali's was de-bolted, nobody got banned. That's good then, we pissed off first hydro so much by congregating on private land and creating routes like the worst example's of the F4 at the climbing wall, even after they'd asked us not to, that they built a 10-foot high fence to make sure we didn't return. Great result. That makes climbers look like a bastion of restraint.

So? I don't need telling how shite Dali's is. (Lol, and you accuse me of a straw man). I was just pointing out an innacuracy.

> Climbers as a whole impact the place in ways no different to other venues... A meaningless statement if 'other venues' have their own access issues created by climbers. Which they do, lots of them.

I'm talking about measurable physical impact. How 'changed' is a route after an ascent? I think it's changed significantly if you daub it with spray paint.

> In my view you should accept that when you climb in places like the slate quarries you're on private property doing something the landowner doesn't really encourage. Also, despite their stark beauty in my eyes I'm happy that I'm only passing through doing my thing, just like anyone else can if they want to, and it's not climbers' place to be getting all NIMBY over the quarries. If the BMC buys the lease then we'd have more of a case, and if it was Trem/Cloggy/etc etc I'd feel differently. But it isn't.

So if its privately owned, I don't get to have an opinion? Lots of crags we don't own have issues we get concerned about.

> Personally I have no problem whatsoever with graffiti in quarries

Any quarry or the slate quarries in particular?



zero six - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

I wrote 'the quarries'.

Everyone gets to share their opinion, that's the beauty/horror of the internet.
Andy Say - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
http://j.ukc2.com/i/207893.jpg

Photo taken in 2007 (sorry about the quality - it was a rubbish day). Near Never Never Land.

Quite nice really. Not sure who it was that did it.....

Still there?
Jon Ratcliffe - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Say: Yep, pure vandalism!
Stone Idol - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to spidermonkey09: It is one thing to stick graffiti on an old train tunnel or bus shelter, quite another on a beautiful natural landscape like the quarries.

Er??? Natural?
kevin stephens - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Stone Idol:

FFS the quaries are just as natural/man made as almost all of UK countryside, fields, hedgerows, sheep grazing - not much primevel forest left.

But the slate is a natural material that's just been unearthed

I can't understand the arguements of many on this thread who seem to be standing up for this vandal with a spraycan masquerading as an artist.

Climbers are all too happy to stand their ground against farmers or even quarry owners, but some seem to want to validate the claim of someone who wants to trash the place. Time to protect what is ours!
zero six - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:

You must be able to understand the simple idea that a lot of us simply don't think he's a vandal, at least not the sort of vandalism that's worth getting wound up about. It's really as simple as that.

And calling the quarries 'ours' and that 'it's time to protect them' is just a little weird, the quarries are so plainly not 'ours' anymore then they're 'Jack the vandal's'.
kevin stephens - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to zero six:
The climbs are ours..
Ramblin dave - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:
> (In reply to Stone Idol)
>
> I can't understand the arguements of many on this thread who seem to be standing up for this vandal with a spraycan masquerading as an artist.

What about the vandals with masonry drills and bolts? Or is it only a shocking defacement of the "natural" landscape when it's someone else doing it?

I mean, in practical terms I can see why painting on the rock is going to lead to a lot more problems a lot more quickly than bolting it, but a bunch of climbers getting outraged at the very idea of someone unnaturally modifiying the rock in the quarries for their own gratification is so stupid as to be almost funny...
Jonny2vests - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:

So I assume you'd have no problem with chipping either then?
Jonny2vests - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Goucho:

Sorry, but that argument is bollux. There is no true wilderness in the UK, so defining wilderness objectively doesn't work. For many, places can return to a kind of wilderness, the slate quarries are such a place which have their own unique version of wilderness.
Wilderness, when there's none of the real thing to be had, is what people think it is.
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Goucho)
>
> There is no true wilderness in the UK, so defining wilderness objectively doesn't work.

Cairngorm plateau, St Kilda, the Cuillins, Cross Fell, Bleaklow?


Chris
Ramblin dave - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
Of course I'd have a problem with it. But I've also got a sense of perspective and I know that that's a rule that climbers have come up with to maximize our own enjoyment of the area, not because we've got some deep sense of stewardship that makes the very thought of modifying the rock unthinkable. Maybe somewhere like Cloggy or Stanage that is true, but in the quarries we're entirely happy to modify the rock when it suits the games that we've decided to play...
Goucho on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Goucho)
>
> Sorry, but that argument is bollux. There is no true wilderness in the UK.

If you believe that, then I suggest you get out more!

Of course, if you're going to get all pedantic on what the 'literal' definition of wilderness is, then that's your prerogative.

However, the less pedantic and anal of us, can find lots of 'wilderness' places to enjoy in the UK.

And, if you're going to get all hot and bothered and offended about a 3' foot mural in the Llanberris slate quaries, I hope you're equally offended by the huge 'scars' ravaging the mountains of the UK, called 'footpaths'.

Jon Ratcliffe - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave: 'sense of perspective' nail on head there Dave. Most so called climbers on here don't seem to have this.

The climbs are not 'ours'
The quarry landscape is post industrial mixed with current industrial, remember that hydroelectric power station? It's not all underground is it? There are metalled roads, concreted levels, new tunnels, loads of modern buildings, the constant 'hum' of the power stations, fences, signs, security, vents, etc.

It's not about whether we think what he paints is good or even whether we want him to paint there or not, it's the point that who are we to be so self righteous and to declare any sort of ownership or guardianship when we ourselves could easily be accused of trespass and vandalism in exactly the same place.

It's great that everyone cares so much about the quarries but you need to have some real perspective on our and other peoples use of them, whether we agree with it or not. I am afraid that it's hard to argue against the fact that after the power station, we as climbers have the biggest impact upon the quarries as a user group. We even have our very own commercial guide book to show us how!
Jon Ratcliffe - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: I am beginning to wonder just how much time some of you have actually spent in the quarries and how much you have explored them as most of those folk who have a good perspective on this seem to be those who are most familiar with them.
Goucho on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe: Very good point John.

Climbers do often have this rather deluded self-righteous belief that the cliffs and mountains are purely there for our entertainment and enjoyment, and that by default we have the right to dictate how they are used.

I remember back around the mid 70's walking back along the road at Tremadoc back to the cafe, and there were a group of people looking up in disgust, and getting very irate at Pete Gomersall and Jim Moran on abseil, ripping huge swathes of ivy and other vegetation off the Vector headwall in order to clean the line of Mongoose. They considered it vandalism!

Just because we climb on the crags and mountains, doesn't mean we have a god given right to set the rules to suit our sport, and as a group of people, climbers have done huge damage to the natural landscape in terms of erosion etc etc.

I don't agree with this so called 'painting' but sometimes when climbers get all indignant about this kind of thing, it's often a case of "people in glass houses"!
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Goucho:

On the other hand what other people wanted to actually make use of Tremadoc or other cliffs... Look at them and enjoy their beauty, yes, but make use of them? I can't think of any and stripping off ivy, once it's rained a couple of times, doesn't really make them less attractive to look at.

In fact it's hard to see what other activity than climbing cliffs are good for so as long as this use is not to visible (mostly without bolts or chalk it would not be visible at all) so why not climb cliffs?

The corollary is to apply the same logic to painting large murals, can the same be said of them? Do they provide long term enjoyment to thousands of people without distracting from the beauty of the cliffs? It doesn't seem to me that they do either.
Jonny2vests - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Cairngorm plateau, St Kilda, the Cuillins, Cross Fell, Bleaklow?
>
>
> Chris

Used to be part of the Boreal Forest, so hardly in their natural state.
Jonny2vests - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> If you believe that, then I suggest you get out more!

Greetings from British Columbia.

> Of course, if you're going to get all pedantic on what the 'literal' definition of wilderness is, then that's your prerogative.

It's hardly pedantry. Standing on top of Stanage you see roads, footpaths, a concrete factory, fields, villages etc etc. But I doubt you'd use the same argument there.
In reply to jonny2vests:
>
>
> Used to be part of the Boreal Forest, so hardly in their natural state.

You reckon the Cairngorm plateau has been forested since the last Ice Age?


Chris
Goucho on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Goucho)
> [...
> [...]
>
> It's hardly pedantry. Standing on top of Stanage you see roads, footpaths, a concrete factory, fields, villages etc etc. But I doubt you'd use the same argument there.

Well if this is the best you can come up for your wilderness argument, I rest my case.

Jonny2vests - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> You reckon the Cairngorm plateau has been forested since the last Ice Age?
>
>
> Chris

Why not? Trees grow above that height in higher latitudes.
Jonny2vests - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Well if this is the best you can come up for your wilderness argument, I rest my case.

I don't follow. So you think Stanage is wild?
Kevin Woods - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: Guess you've never been! Grass hardly grows there.
Jonny2vests - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Kevin Woods:

Yes yes, ok I concede the point, and I've been up there on occasion. The point is that the vast majority of the UK is 'man-made', so singling out the quarry as 'unnatural' doesn't really work when it's all (give or take) unnatural.
Simon - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to Sarah G) In reply to Sarah G: Oh dear Sarah you're not the sharpest tool on the box are you dear?
>
> There you go Sarah. Thank you for your valuable and intelligent contribution to the thread. Please call again.
>
>

What a lovely individual you are yourself bell end... Sarah has her views and is a lovely person - I don't agree with her stance on a few things but there is no need to be so self righteous, how dare you attack her like that?

I would ask that you think of an apology with tail firm;y between legs, live & let live and all that or if you are such a knob cheese please don't talk to my friends like that...

Si
jkarran - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to zero six:

> The other thing I can't quite figure out is how some people are unable to grasp the hypocrisy of holding two completely contradictory beliefs - it's illegal to put paint on a wall which isn't theirs - therefore 'wrong', but for somebody to put 8 bolts and a lower-off in the same wall, without any permission from the landowner, and to call it a 'sport-climbing venue', is right. Beats me.

Why do you assume we don't understand or see the hypocrisy? Personally I don't like much of what climbers have done to the quarries either but that's been done to death elsewhere, I spoke up then too.

jk
kevin stephens - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to jkarran:

It's nothing to do with hypocracy, just about how far away the graffiti and bolts are visible.

Climbers may get heated about "damage" from chiping holds, placing bolts etc. But I suspect that many non-climbing users of the quarries (runners, dog walkers etc) or people just appreciating the views from the valley arn't even aware of them - unlike the graffiti
Ramblin dave - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to zero six)
>
> [...]
>
> Why do you assume we don't understand or see the hypocrisy?

That was "some people" not "all climbers" to be fair. I thought your response was sensible and proportionate.

I can see at least three good reasons that sport climbing in the quarries is a good idea and graffiti isn't - firstly we've had quite a lot of delicate access negotiations that have concluded that sport climbing is sort-of kind-of tolerated up to a point, but none that I know of concerning painting the rock, secondly graffiti is a lot more visible from a lot further away, so it's more likely to be contentious than bolting, and thirdly graffiti is a lot more likely to spread quickly and visibly because getting some paint on the rock is a lot less difficult and expensive than bolting it.

What I have an issue with is the idea that climbers are somehow protecting the untouched purity of the rock or the silent remoteness of the place, when in fact we're quite happy to drill holes in it and climb all over it while shouting when it suits us...
ads.ukclimbing.com
jkarran - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Goucho:

> I don't agree with this so called 'painting' but sometimes when climbers get all indignant about this kind of thing, it's often a case of "people in glass houses"!

Perhaps we shouldn't throw stones in our rather grubby glass houses but there's no reason why we shouldn't quietly stand up for our interests when we believe them to be threatened.

I'm frankly disgusted by some of what has been posted in response to this and I'm not at all comfortable being associated with it.

On the other hand while I fully admit climbers are guilty of some piss-poor short sighted actions in the quarries I still don't believe they'd be improved by what was being proposed. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Jack would have created something wonderful and relevant that rewarded some exploration and enhanced the place, referenced its history and became a part of it. As the tag he left at the Sidings (the less said about the work climbers have left there the better) suggested that may not be the case the safest course of action seemed to be speaking up, at least making him aware his actions had a wider impact than he may have been aware of. Maybe that's my loss, maybe I've missed out on a real treat because I did that but I'm comfortable with my decision and my actions and I'm grateful to Jack for his. Personally I don't think it's based on reactionary xenophobia (of course I wouldn't, who would), I think it was reasoned and reasonable.

Maybe we've behaved badly enough as a community he'll reconsider his reasonable position and leave us a 20ft illustration of his thoughts on climbers. It's not like we don't deserve it.

jk
andyathome - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Simon:
> (In reply to Jon Ratcliffe)
> [...]
>
> What a lovely individual you are yourself bell end... Sarah has her views and is a lovely person - I don't agree with her stance on a few things but there is no need to be so self righteous, how dare you attack her like that?
>
> I would ask that you think of an apology with tail firm;y between legs, live & let live and all that or if you are such a knob cheese please don't talk to my friends like that...
>
> Si

I would hereby like to nominate this post for the black pot/black kettle interface post of the week award.

One post is offensively patronising; but one is just plain offensive.

'live and let live and all that....'? Yeah, right.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Simon: Oh the irony!
Is that how you negotiate bouldering access in the Peak Simon?!...

"bellend" and "nob cheese".. Brilliant! :)
But seriously for a minute. If you had read all the posts you should have seen that I have already accepted critisism for the tone of my post and explained why, not that it was an excuse. From the sounds of it Sarah is quite capable of defending herself on these forums although I respect your right to do so. The offensiveness of your post of course undermined this, although it was quite funny too. I have no beef with you or Sarah.
If apologies were due I would suggest they should first come from all those 'climbers' on here who wrote offensive, aggressive and threatening comments on Jacks blog.
kevin stephens - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Oh the irony Jon!
Now you're asking for climbers to appologise for defacing a graffiti "artist's" blog

When you're in a hole I suggest you stop digging
zero six - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:

You'd make a poor foreman.
muppetfilter - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens: Just one thing to point out Kevin is that some of the comments that have been left could easily be reported to the Police. Threats like those posted read like quotes from a daily mail story about internet school bullying.


kevin stephens - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to muppetfilter: Well fair dos I havent read (couldn't find) them. However the irony stands, and I suspect a graffiti "artist's" ego is more robust than many.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to kevin stephens: The irony doesn't stand im afraid Kevin as I was asking them to apologise for their actual abuse, as described above. The graffiti artist didn't abuse us.
paul walters - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown: Graffitti isn't art. It's vandalism. Nothing but.
metal arms on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to paul walters:
> (In reply to Liam Brown) Graffitti isn't art. It's vandalism. Nothing but.

Nothing but what? - 'Graffiti isn't art it's nothing but vandalism.' That would have saved you a couple of full stops.

There is nothing like turning up late to a party!

BMC Office - on 06 Nov 2012 - www.thebmc.co.uk
In reply to....

Just up on the BMC site. Writing on the wall: Ed Douglas explores the issues surrounding rock, art and graffiti:

http://thebmc.co.uk/graffiti-on-slate
abcdefg - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to BMC Office:

Thanks.

A somewhat disappointing article which doesn't seem to add much to the analysis of the current episode.

I am perplexed that Ed can write: '... society has become more tolerant of graffiti ...' On what basis does he say that?
muppetfilter - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to abcdefg:
>
> I am perplexed that Ed can write: '... society has become more tolerant of graffiti ...' On what basis does he say that?

In the basis that banksy works are worth millions ;0)
tony on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to abcdefg:
>
> I am perplexed that Ed can write: '... society has become more tolerant of graffiti ...' On what basis does he say that?

Perhaps on the basis that a graffiti artist such as Banksy can be considered a legitimate artist?
IainRUK - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to abcdefg: I thought it was a decent article, good history..

This thread isn't the greatest around.. really doesn't paint climbers as the most liberal open minded people..
Simon Caldwell - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> This thread isn't the greatest around.. gives the impression that climbers support vandalism in the hills

fixed that for you :-)
Ridge - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
If you tolerate this, then your quarries will be next..
Mike Stretford - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to abcdefg: I think what he means is some people who call themselves 'graffiti artists' are painting nice murals. 'Mural' doesn't have the same urban ring as 'graffiti' (though I see Jack uses the correct terminolgy). I still class 'graffiti' as the stuff I see on the other side of the canal......disparinging and probably fictional accounts peoples sex lives and indecipherable tags.
Ramblin dave - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador:
Yeah, it's sad but it looks like bolting is just an accepted part of climbing these days...
IainRUK - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: well they support the alteration of pristine environments for the purpose of their hobby.. I know grafiti is different but its a bit like 'our wrong isn't so bad'..

Too be honest all this 'don't threaten the access'.. where was the indignant responses when the fence was cut down by climbers in the quarries.. there were people on the slate wiki actively encouraging criminal damage..

Ridge catchy... I like it.. :-)
Goucho on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Papillon: I've just thought, maybe all the chalk you see plastered by the bucket load on on grit on everything from Diff upwards, isn't a reflection of the herd mentality of climbers, it is in fact a 'collective' abstract mural - a sort of Magnesium Carbonate Jackson Pollock :-)
DeanD - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to cap'nChino: amazing comment couldn't of sed it better. If you need an accomplice I'm in.
IainRUK - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to DeanD: 'Sed'? So you are against the defacing of our quarries but not our great language.. just 1 more letter..
andyathome - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to DeanD) 'Sed'? So you are against the defacing of our quarries but not our great language.. just 1 more letter..

Surely delete one and add two?
tom84 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to tony: banksy is not legitimate, he's ripped off blek le rat for years now and for some reason he gets away with it:

http://alturl.com/93znf
Bruce Hooker - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to IainRUK:

And replace "of" with "have"
IainRUK - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to andyathome: Its like the use of 'nyte'..

OK I'm not a great speller, but I at least try to spell the words correctly..

I am getting old and grumpy I know, but I just don't see why that extra tap on the keyboard is such an obstacle.. it must be easier than trying to work out how to phonetically spell a word...
nw - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:
Or indeed the unimaginative and lazy misuse of words. For example 'amazing comment' when what you mean is, 'I agree with you'. Really, Dean, has cap'n'Chino's comment amazed you, left you in a state of awe and wonderment? Or are you just another juvenile t*@t jumping on the bandwagon and trying (in vain) to establish some macho climber credentials?
crow-media - on 07 Nov 2012
TheDrunkenBakers - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Great thread. If it wasnt for the fact that its a Wednesday, and I'm supposed to be working, I'd have cracked open a beer.
Andy Say - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to jezb1:
When Great Slab on Froggatt was painted (and I seem to recall that that WAS a big one done with gloss paint) it was CanUK who humped a load of compressors and generators and stuff across to sandblast the gloss paint off the crag; so they should know. I think that the consensus was that blasting was by far the best way to go about removal. Bill Wright was BMCaccessman at the time.

Nobody actually did anything when Bradford council painted right across the bottom of the Cow at Ilkley with a dark grey gloss as far as I know. Made Cow Udder seem a lot harder....
paul walters - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms:
> (In reply to paul walters)
> [...]
>
> Nothing but what? - 'Graffiti isn't art it's nothing but vandalism.' That would have saved you a couple of full stops.
>
> There is nothing like turning up late to a party!

Better late than never, and I happen to like full stops. They add some tension to the paragraph.............. see ?
cragtyke - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Say: Wasn't it a big smiley that was painted and didn't they use a mixture containing cowdung to get the clean blasted rock to blend in again?
I suppose that as the slabs are quarried and therefore manmade, you could argue that the artwork should have been left for us all to enjoy?
crow-media - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Two interesting comments from Welsh creatives..renowned photographer Glyn Davies and John Redhead re-posted here.

http://tohatchacrow.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/slate-of-art.html

Glyn Davies

Man it's a difficult scenario this one, for all the reasons you state, but the biggest point you raise, that so unopposed by many climbers and artists, is the issue of imposition upon others. One turbine in itself is not necessarily ugly but literally every hillside, valley and ocean horizon being covered with them as planned, is both ugly and horrific. It's the fact that no matter how varied the viewpoints, everyone will be forced to see them like it or not.

So it is with 'artwork' good or bad, painted in a permanent way in a public place. Let's just say that the majority find this guys work just plain poor, and visually offensive, why should we all be forced to see it just because he feels he has the right to do it ? If he is just painting one art work, then maybe there is a place within this huge man made scar (which sort of has an awesome historical, even epic beauty of it's own, surprisingly) but if he intends to paint across every rock face, visible not just within the quarry but also from the hillsides opposite, then I'd argue that it is simply not on. It's almost an arrogance for him to assume that his work even has calibre that everyone will appreciate, and in the HUGE difference between him and Nash & Goldsworthy, is that the latter two artists produce work that is temporary, subtle and muted, recorded often using photography, for others to see, as the works will disintegrate over time.

Let's just say that another artist decides to throw a ton of red & white paint over Crib Goch, to make a 'statement' about English visitors over-running Welsh hills (or whatever artist statement they concoct) would THAT be acceptable in the name of art ?

Most artists have to fight hard to find gallery space and representation for their work, many will get turned down simply because it's rubbish, so there is a sense that for some,the lack of gallery representation doesn't mean they can choose the outdoors as a gallery for their weakness as artists, and in the meantime negatively influence the surroundings enjoyed by so many (man made or not)

In conclusion, much as I respect the idea of artists using different ways to put messages and ideas across, when in a public arena, the art HAS to be temporary OR voted upon by the people, not simply imposed by one person on many.


john Redhead

No different really to when Stevie Haston drew a huge cock n balls on the Dervish slab - or is it? Had Stevie 'earned' the right by his ascent of The Dervish? My 'art' left no imprint, it recreated the landscape and posed questions and the sounds from the quarry inspired folk to go there and drum up their own banshee! One has to determine the integrity (often ego) for such endeavour in a public space - if the dialogue is just reactionary or f*** you why not, then it sucks and nobody wins... My acrylic on the Indian Face had been 'paid for' and was temporary (it would wash off in the first winter). I am all for the individual confronting the corporate oppressors - and the quarry is owned by a foreign corporate that sells electricity, ice creams and a range of souvenirs and the bulls**t should be challenged- so what is your message Jack?

Saying all that, my exhibition at the Electric Mountain in Llanberis (poetry, sketches and sounds) brought outcry from the local councillors who wanted it banned because their romantic view of the 'quarry historical' was questioned...(it was later argued to be a significant work of art) - it would be interesting to see what the local councillors think the same of the 'graffiti' by Jack Murray - just the flip side to Colonists Out graffiti! If the Snowdon Park object because it can be seen from Snowdon - then - I say, you can see the Snowdon train garbage and the outrage of the summit restaurant from the quarries...! It's all a mess!
ian Ll-J - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to crow-media: Since when has John Redhead been Welsh?
Ian McNeill - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to crow-media:
> (In reply to Liam Brown)

>
>
> john Redhead
>

>
> Saying all that,..... ! It's all a mess!

Snowdonia is no wilderness - and Jacks Graffiti ai't art... such work is ephemeral and this thread a mere storm in a teacup .
crow-media - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J:
> (In reply to crow-media) Since when has John Redhead been Welsh?>

So..someone who has lived in Wales since 76-albeit with a French base- and whose climbing exploits have been essentially on Welsh rock can't be described as 'A welsh creative'?

ian Ll-J - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to crow-media: No, never...particularly after his well publicised negative comments about the Welsh community.
Jonny2vests - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to BMC Office:

> Very few landscapes in Britain are untouched by human influence. So rather than seeing quarries as nature urbanised, perhaps we should consider them to be nature in re-hab – and let them heal rather than reinterpret them with urban art forms.

My thoughts entirely.
gd303uk - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to highclimber: graffiti is art, some people abhor it, I don't.
Graffiti is art and vandalism.

there fixed that for you. :)




Liam Brown - on 15 Nov 2012
tommycoopersghost on 15 Nov 2012
Today i asked an old retired quarry worker about all this. He laughed his head off. He really didn't care, thought it was all bo++ocks, and asked if i was going to buy him a pint?
neuromancer - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Liam Brown:

Not to bump an old topic, but I was in the slate last weekend and the f*cker has stuck tags all over. For example, take a wander over to the sidings.
Ramblin dave - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to neuromancer:
When were you there? I was climbing slate on saturday and only saw the one in the picture in that article...
Simon Caldwell - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Were were there on Sunday and only saw the original* one, ie at the sidings.

* That's "original" as in "totally lacking in any sort of originality whatsoever".
edwardwoodward - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to neuromancer:
> (In reply to Liam Brown)
>
> Not to bump an old topic, but I was in the slate last weekend and the f*cker has stuck tags all over. For example, take a wander over to the sidings.

By "tags", do you mean the little metal ones drilled into the rock? I thought they'd been there a while.

neuromancer - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:

The one at the sidings has had some scratched defacing (I assume irate climbers), but there are at least two others I saw (I think one in serengeti, one in never never) and I'm sure more.

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