UKC

Following on from other discussions recently, I was wondering what the grade differential is between peoples Worked Onsight & Soloing grades.

I'd be particularly interested regarding trad, simply because I don't know if/how often people solo Sport routes.

For me, the differential is 2 grades, so Worked grade is 2 more than onsight, which is 2 more than solo.

Also, is there a difference between grit/single pitch, and multi-pitch routes?

In reply to Goucho:

E3, E3, E3........ maybe I should try harder on lead......

In reply to Goucho:

I don't work trad so no difference there

I climb about 1-2 grades easier on grit usually but the same for single and multi-pitch

I don't really solo

In reply to Goucho:
my highest grades are:
solo E4
Worked E4
O/S E3

My usual ability is:
soloing around VS (maybe higher if it feels reversable)
onsighting around E1/E2

I think solo's can become pretty skewed as many routes are solos due to the lack of gear, and I only climb on grit where soloing isn't quite as terminal as on other rock.
Good topic though

In reply to Goucho:

On-sight: E4

Worked: E3 (I work routes very, very rarely, hence anomaly - in fact this particular example is from about 2005 when I was trying to break into E3)

Solo: E2

Don't tend to do much multipitch in the UK, hence nothing for you there.

Note all of the above is when I was climbing well, as opposed to the last couple of injury and rest-of-life-getting-in-the-way plagued years.

In reply to Goucho:
I have to admit I've never worked routes so cant help you there. When I was climbing well I found that I was soloing at around the same 'grade' as my best leads but the routes were very different; so steep strenuous routes I would lead, bold slabby routes I would solo. Both got the same grade but the solo commitment was very different.

I was talking similarly about routes today after looking at some new guidebooks. Something like Sick-Bay Shuffle at Wimberry I found OK to solo. Tippler on Stanage there was just no way I was going to solo!

In reply to Goucho:
I've never worked trad route, only indoor routes. For that my regular onsight grade was the same as my worked grade - i hit a sort of plateau in my local walls where I could do pretty much everything up to F6c+ on first or second try but the F7a routes all had stopper moves for me even on toprope.

Hardest trad onsight was E2. Regular onsite grade E1 which is also the same as the hardest routes i soloed. There were lots of easier routes that I wouldn't solo though for factors such as poor landing, height, sloping / sandy topout etc.

In reply to Goucho:
Don't really solo routes nowadays, but hardest solo is E1.
Best on sight for both single and multi-pitch is E3.
Don't work trad routes but from stuff i've seconded I am confident if I put my mind to it I could work E5.

In reply to Goucho:

I don't solo any more, but my solo and lead grades were the same on grit (easy E3). On other rock, I think I have probably only soloed VS but lead E2/3. I've never worked a trad route, so can't really help you there. From my sport and bouldering grades, I'd guess that I could work the right E5/6 though.

In reply to Goucho: Love the topic. I can carry on reminiscing about past achievements from the comfort of my arm chair instead of getting out there and pushing myself. Well it is raining and dark outside.

Back when I was operating in all 3 disciplines, the highest I got was:
solo E8
worked E8
o/s E4
(all on 'natural' grit)

Basically I was going for 2 grades higher with the worked as opposed to the on sight, similar to yourself. I just happened to drop lucky with the E8, in that it felt a lot more comfortable than the E6 I was going for at the time. You've probably already guessed that the solo is a bit of a bum steer, it was just that the E8 had no gear. Come to think of it the o/s was solo as well. I wonder what that said about me.

Soloing multi pitch is a further dimension I've never really gone for, VDiff being the hardest grade achieved in the Lakes.

Anyway, now I usually on sight stuff around VS, hardly do any working but still solo when I feel like it up to about HVS.

In reply to Goucho:

Not worked a trad route
Best onsight is E3 5c
Hardest solo is E1 (but not proper E1, it was an E1 solo so about 4c)

I tend to drop a grade or two on grit (I get freaked out by proximity to the ground and I find routes to be hard for the grade) but climb well on multi-pitch.

In reply to Goucho:


I'm about the same as you. But I guess it depends whether you work or onsight the solo.

In reply to Goucho:

You didn't ask fr peoples' specific grades did you?

In reply to Goucho:

When you say "worked" in a trad context do you really mean "hard routes that we set out to work, being fairly sure that we would not onsight them", or just anything that's been fallen off or seconded / top-roped and subsequently lead (thus not the same intention as setting out to "work" it, but the same end result)?
e.g. I have "headpointed" E2 straight after doing the same route on a top rope, but I had only intended to top-rope it. I just decided to lead it straight afterward. I don't think of it as a "worked" route.

In reply to Bulls Crack: I'm interested irrespective of grades.

Would be interesting to see if there is any difference in the differential the higher up the grades you go.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Either really. I tend to consider any route where you've practised it beforehand - either seconded/top roped/or dogged, to be 'worked'.

In reply to Goucho:


Solo - HS
Onsight - HVS /F6b
Worked - E2 / F6b+

In reply to Goucho:
On grit it is all the same grade, although actually I'm not sure I've 'worked' any routes as hard as my hardest onsight solo.

Limestone there is a big difference and I solo infrequently and a couple of grades below my onsight limit.

Multipitch is generally stuff well within my comfort zone so at least 1 grade below my normal onsight limit for that rock type.

In reply to Goucho: I guess:
Worked - HVS
Onsight - E1
Solo - S (VS if you count green parrot at Bamford)

I fell on a HVS and did it again, so I'm calling that worked. The E1 was first go.

I think that's testament to how little climbing I actually get done!

In reply to Goucho:


I haven't dedicated much time to working traditional routes, generally only where they're basically roped bouldering. As such the grade difference (nil) says nothing interesting. I don't solo.


Only in so much as I'd probably not work or solo a big route.
jk

In reply to Goucho:

Onsite - Mod

Worked - Mod

Solo - Mad

In reply to Goucho:worked = E5 onsight =E5 (easy ones) solo = E5 ( all highballs)

In reply to Goucho:

Lead - onsight E2 5c
Solo - onsight E3 5c

Lead - headpoint E3 6a
Solo - headpoint E3 6b

Solo: VS
Onsight: E5 (once...)
Worked: E5

In reply to Goucho:
I think the hardest grade soloed issue is a tricky one as it depends entirely on what kind of routes you are trying. Its quite common for short (eg grit) routes to be without protection and almost exclusively solo headpointed, whereas a longer / steeper pitch of the same subjective grade would be a much more serious proposition to solo, even with practice, and will rarely be climbed in that style. My local rock is scottish dolerite, which can sometimes be a bit grit-esque and, as a result, strictly speaking the hardest route Ive ever climbed was solo (but practiced on toprope first, to my shame)
I do a fair bit of on-sight soloing at lower grades, and the mental and physical process is entirely different from headpointing. I would humbly venture that this is true soloing (pre-knowledge being itself a safety device), and so it would be much more interesting to talk about the differences between peoples onsight grades, led and solo.
Similarly, when you are soloing, the ammount of available protection is meaningless to your ability to climb the route. So whether its an E25c lace-up or an exposed E55c makes little difference. You still have to climb 5c and success or failure depends on your ability to stick the crux move. So i would suggest that peoples on-sight technical grades, led vs solo would be more revealing still of how people approach soloing and the psychological effect of a rope

(and no, sorry, grit highballs over mats dont count

In reply to Goucho:
Sport - onsight 6c+
- worked 6c+

Trad - onsight E3
- solo E3
- worked E4 (but E3 really)

In reply to Dr Toph:

I think that this also reflects an issue with the UK grading system. It doesn't affect me because I can't be bothered to get the rope out for climbs that are only 8 metres long and personally I don't consider them routes as such. I would prefer to see very short routes graded as boulder problems but that too would raise a few issues so I'm really only looking at this from a personal perspective.

In reply to Goucho:

My Solo Grade and Onsight Grade are both exactly the same. I couldn't have led the solo as no gear on it anyway

I don't work routes.

In reply to Goucho: onsight a grade less than worked seems not a lot of people like to work routes i like to work routes that i probably could not onsight but look to good not to be climbed and its more enjoyable flowing climbing on the lead when you no the moves and for solo not dun a lot just a few at the lower end.
did a few ground up is that classed as worked ?

In reply to Goucho:
Trad onsight - HVS 5a (just the one so far)
Solo onsight without mat - HS 4b
Solo onsight with mat - VS 4c
Have never really worked a route before.

I think the grade when soloing often feels less relevant and is more a case of do I feel comfortable with this route or not. This can often see me backing off a diff, then soloing something 2 or 3 grades harder straight after.

Usually what I look for in a solo is the opposite of what I look for in a lead.i.e. a short, escapable route with a low crux or no crux and poorly protected. I also avoid steep routes when soloing (although the same could be said of my leading).

In reply to Goucho:

This thread got me thinking, and being a total winner i worked out what my hardest lead and solos are (excluding rock types I've done less than 40 routes on):

Dolerite E1/VS
Granite E2/HS
Gritstone E2/HVS
Limestone E1/VS
Quartzite E1/E1
Rhyolite E1/S
Sandstone E1/HVS

So I don't solo mountain routes above Severe, and my hardest solos have been either nice crimpy slabs (North Pembroke sandstone or quartzite) or (to a lesser extent) bold grit routes.

In reply to Goucho:

E3, E3 and E3. Worth a few qualifying remarks - I've done a few E4's but they were all soft touches and don't really count. The E3's I've soloed were all solos by virtue of absence of gear, and so don't really count. So the hardest proper route I've soloed was E2 and I'll not do anything that stupid again. I don't work routes either, so the first E3 is a nonsense too.

In essence, I potter along happily at the E3 mark, which is to say 5c. I push the boat out for 6a and do 5b happily. I struggle on VS - don't ask me why - I often find them awkward, desperate struggles and will go to find an E2 or E3 instead which I'll usually find easier. THe chances of getting me to solo a VS these days is essentially zero.

Go figure!

In reply to Dr Toph:


Well put.

Mine would be:
hardest headpoint - E3 (usually 5c)
hardest onsight - E3 (5c)
(i.e. I tend to give up if I can't do the moves on something quickly so onsight and headpoint grades technically tend to be pretty similar. That doesn't mean I'd neccessarily have managed to onsight/ground-up the routes I'd headpointed if I'd tried them that way instead)

To me a proper solo is onsight - otherwise it's basically a headpoint. When falling isn't an option (i.e. nearly all the time) I'm only really happy soloing up to 4c, so will say VS for solo grade (though have done harder).

So that's 3 tech grades difference between lead and solo. The tech grade, level of commitment and type of rock/route is certainly what counts. A steady E1 5a can often be a much better choice than a burly VS 5a.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

(just to clarify I mean for soloing)

In reply to Goucho: Never worked anything, climb to escape working!

Onsight E3 6a

Solo VD.


Not sure of grade differential, but a lot more than others it seems?

Wife, 2 kids if I want to climb without a rope I would go bouldering.