/ "Super"storm Sandy

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Ben Sharp - on 31 Oct 2012
Hurricane Gordon, Katrina, Stan, Jeanne, Mitch - between 1000-20,000 fatalities. Hurricane Sandy, death toll 35+ but hits New York - Super Storm?

The last thing I want to do is trivialise the catastrophe and I'm aware that it has the largest diameter on record but do we really need to call it a Superstorm. We all know what hurricane means.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Ben Sharp:

Could have been worse, could have been a super duper storm.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Ben Sharp:

Not the largest diameter, Google 'typhoon tip'

It's still pretty big though

I get where you're coming from, part of the story is because it has hit new York one week before the election. But i accept its not just that, its scale and behaviour has been unusual, and a 14 ft storm surge through manhatten is a serious matter.

I think the 'superstorm' title is in part because its no longer a hurricane, but just calling it a storm doesn't convey its scale

Cheers
Gregor
Blue Straggler - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
>
>
> I think the 'superstorm' title is in part because its no longer a hurricane

Yes, it is like the concept of a "supergroup" in rock music. Not necessarily the biggest or most "effective", but comprising several elements each of which is pretty major in its own right.
Trangia - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Ben Sharp:

Why do you measure the strength and size of the storm in terms of loss of life?

Isn't the "comparatively" low casualty rate due to the fact that the authorities this time took much greater precautions ordering mass evacuations in terms of millions of people from low lying coastal areas prior to the storm?

The warnings were very stark, and in this case accurate, anyone ignoring them was a fool.
Milesy - on 31 Oct 2012
Hurricane Katrina is still spoke of as Hurricane Katrina even after it was downgraded. It would be better to just call it Hurricane Sandy still.
In reply to Ben Sharp:
> Hurricane Gordon, Katrina, Stan, Jeanne, Mitch - between 1000-20,000 fatalities.

But they were poor brown people and weren't surrounded by 24 hr cable news crews, so - you know, the don't count as much... :-(
Frank4short - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Ben Sharp: I think you'll find the current death toll is something more like 120-150+ just our media is largely ignoring the 65+ deaths in haiti and others in the poorer Carribean countries as well they're less news worthy.

Plus as Trangia's pointed out deaths in the coastal US were largely mitigated against as a result of the warnings and evacuation procedures put in place in order to mitigate against such catastrophes. In fact in well predicted events like, Sandy just gone, there's considerable evidence to say that most deaths are usually as a result of personal stupidity rather than the weather itself. As people are usually well warned in advance and advised what to do and what not to do to protect themselves. I read an article about it in the run up to Sandy hitting New York but ironically enough it's now unlinkable as the website in question's datacentre is in Manhattan and offline.
Sir Chasm - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to TobyA: It's lucky there are no poor brown people in New York.
In reply to Sir Chasm: and as we saw in Katrina poor black Americans don't get that much attention either (unless it's to report on crimes they generally didn't actually do during the disaster).
Sir Chasm - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to TobyA: We clearly look at different media, I remember a huge amount of airtime devoted to Katrina, I'm surprised you missed it.
IceKing - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm: Also lucky we don't have a resident smart arse who is really getting very tedious now believing they are some sort of 'voice of reason', I liked the idea of your moniker to start with, reasonably inventive. It's very, very old now, its really time to come up with something new.
In reply to Sir Chasm: Do you know how many people died in Katrina without looking it up? Most Americans don't and under-estimate the numbers killed in the flooding significantly. Nevertheless most remember the stories of rapes and murders in the superdome, which never actually happened. We do now know though that police shot innocent people, killing two, and that armed private security contractors rounded up and imprisoned innocent people in cages extra-judicially. That wasn't reported a the time.
Sir Chasm - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to TobyA: No, neither of us know how many people died in most natural disasters without looking it up.
I'm not sure that anyone has claimed the reporting was ideal but to say it wasn't reported on because they were brown is just silly.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Sir Chasm) and as we saw in Katrina poor black Americans don't get that much attention either (unless it's to report on crimes they generally didn't actually do during the disaster).

Or the US learnt lessons from Katrina... honestly do people have no idea how poor NJ is? Its one of the most down trodden states in the US..

Go to Camden NJ and then see how many white faces you see..
Al Evans on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to TobyA: At least 50 have died due to Sandy, in spite of all the precautions and warnings and preventative measures for disaster. I think we can have no doubt that this was a serious storm and not just US hyperbole. 6-20 billion dollars to right the damage is being estimated. That amount could just about put Greeces financial problems to right.
I was impressed by the mayor of New York's address when he said 'and don't forget your pets' :-)
tony on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> Or the US learnt lessons from Katrina...

It's notable that Chris Christie, Republican Governor of New Jersey has been very complimentary about FEMA - it does sound like a lot has been improved upon since Katrina. Christie is usually fiercely critical of anything associated with federal government, but he now seems to be a big fan of what can be done.

To me, the statistic that stands out most is the number of people without electricity - 8 million or so. That's 1.5 times the population of Scotland. The logistical exercise to get that sorted must be enormous.
graeme jackson - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> I'm not sure that anyone has claimed the reporting was ideal but to say it wasn't reported on because they were brown is just silly.

I'd like to add to this if I may. I know at least a dozen people that were badly affected by katrina and only 2 of them are coloured, and they've told me that there were fairly equal proportions of ethnicities affected. Something the conspiracy theorists frequently fail to pick up on
GrahamD - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to graeme jackson:

I'm not sure anyone suspects a conspiricy, do they ? just lazy journalism (its so easy to just re-transmit English language news feeds from the US than to send a reporter to e.g. Bangladesh)
Blizzard - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Ben Sharp:

Re the super storm or whatever you wish to call it:

Do you think people might wake up, change their behaviour, or will we all carry on regardless?

It simply highlights how powerless and insignificant we are when compared to nature.
graeme jackson - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to graeme jackson)
>
> I'm not sure anyone suspects a conspiricy, do they ?
Nope - you're right. wrong description on my part.- i'm just commenting on TobyA's suggestions of racism - "and as we saw in Katrina poor black Americans don't get that much attention either ". Just as many poor white americans there.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> on because they were brown is just silly.

And you know, or at least I presume you know, exactly what I meant - that the plight of the poor, the powerless and the marginalised is normally under reported. Look at the situation in western Burma currently for example (well rather don't "look" as there isn't too much on TV news about it, "read" on the inside pages of the quality newspapers and news sites.
In reply to graeme jackson:
> Just as many poor white americans there.

In New Orleans actually there isn't - the city is majority black and the african americans are disproportionately poorer. But I do take your point, *poor* people suffer disproportionately in natural disaster - compare Japanese earth quakes to the Haiti one. Japanese earthquakes are very severe but the buildings are just so much stronger, so there are less casualties.
John Rushby - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Ben Sharp:

New York has just had the shit kicked out of it, 8m arer without electricity, the transit system is down, Wall Street is closed and a presdiential election is on hold.

It is kind of newsworthy. So is Haiti, but it is possible to run both stories

In the same way if the Thames Barrier was breached, the Underground flooded and London went into darkness then on the news it would probably come in above the dog that says sausages or the Dancing with X Factor in Their Eyes result . *


*Except on Channel 5
Sir Chasm - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to TobyA: You referred to poor brown people, there's no need to get snippy with me just because I didn't realise the "brown" was superfluous.
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
honestly do people have no idea how poor NJ is? Its one of the most down trodden states in the US..


Umm not at all really. It has the second highest median income of any State.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to John Rushby:

I guess what Ben was getting at is that by calling it a 'superstorm' there is an implications that is its perhaps worse that a hurricane, needing a new category to label it

In fact, in terms of intensity, the winds were barely hurricane force and it was downgraded to a tropical storm when it made landfall. It was very big, and that Counts for a lot, google hurricane severity index, but even then it was not unprecedented in this regard either.

Compared to other cyclones such as hurricanes katrina, camille, Gilbert and Mitch, and a whole lot of pacific typhoons, it was either smaller or much less intense, or both.

It was unusual in hitting so far north, and Turning directly inland, and the sight of manhattan shut down like that is clearly newsworthy. It brought the worst storm surge in new York ever, and has caused loss of life and vast infrastructural damage.

Like i said, I think the label is almost as a result of weather pedantry, in that it was downgraded and so no longer officially a hurricane, but just calling it tropical storm sandy doesn't seem to do it justice. But then the networks pick up on it and as it is a catchy title it gets used widely and risks giving the impression that this was a whole new level of severity of storm, when it wasn't. Like i said upthread, google typhoon tip, *that* was a storm....

There has only once been a landfall of a cat 5 hurricane that was cat 5 at that point; even katrina was 'only' cat 3 when it hit new orleans. seeing what a sub-hurricane storm did to NY, the consequences of that are too horrendous to even contemplate,

Gregor
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: haha.. go south NJ.. that's corrupted by the North..which lies next to New York.. a hugely ignorant statement..

Have you been to Camden, Trenton? rural south NJ? I'm guessing a no..

But hey lets not let actual real life experiences shade opinion...
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: It also struck at high tide at almost the full moon, so essentially a high spring tide associated with a storm surge.. it was pretty much the perfect storm..
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to MG) haha.. go south NJ.. that's corrupted by the North..which lies next to New York.. a hugely ignorant statement..
>
> Have you been to Camden, Trenton? rural south NJ?

Well yes I have but carry on... Try Louisiana or similar if you want to see downtrodden.
ads.ukclimbing.com
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=8818526

Poorest city in the US... Camden, NJ.

2 in 5 live below the poverty line.. but hey median state income is high... therefore its not downtrodden...

ebygomm - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> Like i said upthread, google typhoon tip, *that* was a storm....

It's not always size that matters, there are so many factors that influence how much of an impact a storm has.

My grandparents and aunts and uncles spent Christmas day under a table sheltering from Cyclone Tracey, that was a piddly little storm if you're using Typhoon Tip as your comparison point. It doesn't mean it's effects were any less devastating.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: I've been to Louisiana.. I agree its down trodden.

More so than Camden and other south NJ towns.. I didn't think so. Both are in a pretty bad way but I'd say Camden is actually worse..

The murder rate is shockingly high, the city hall has white crosses outside for every person murdered that year.. there's a lot of crosses..

A lot of deserted houses, a huge poor black community, lots of homeless people. Huge unemployment rate, huge drugs problems.. hence its down trodden..
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to MG) haha.. go south NJ.. that's corrupted by the North..which lies next to New York.. a hugely ignorant statement..
>

Just to make the point, the median household income in NJ's poorest county is almost identical to the median household income in the whole of Mississippi. If a storm is going to hit somewhere in the US that is well-able to cope, the Eastern sea-board is that spot, and that includes NJ.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: I think if you look carefully you can see I've smashed your argument for a six... cheers
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK: I think the more general point is that everywhere in the US has some very poor areas. It doesn't follow that NJ is downtrodden because some towns in it are.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: Regardless the poor black communities were helped here, it wasn't that they were ignored like in Katrina. The view here was that this was the rich NE with no poor black communities, which just isn't the case.

I was skyping with a friend who lives just outside Camden when they get the call to evacuate.. they didn't as they have a strong house. But the response was for all levels of society, rich poor, white black.

South NJ is one of the poorest areas in the US, its cities are a mess. yes the state has money from NY.. which basically dumps its litter in NJ, the giants are based their too, so the North gets cash that way. The south is different. The contrast either side of the Ben Franklin is stark, Philly one side, Camden the other.

I've ran in a fair few states in a fair few rough cities, Camden is the worst I've seen, and that includes New Orleans.
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to MG) I think if you look carefully you can see I've smashed your argument for a six... cheers

If you say so. Possibly of interest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_coefficient
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: "and as we saw in Katrina poor black Americans don't get that much attention either"

This was the comment.. I think that's not the case here.. everyone got help hence so few deaths so far. South NJ has lots of poor black americans.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: You are arguing with the same state level with the northern input... it doesn't change the fact that camden and other south NJ towns are amoungst the poorest in the US in terms of wage, numbers below the poverty line and unemployment.
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to ebygomm:

yes, that was the point i was making about the hurricane severity index, both size and intensity count equally.

had to google cyclone tracey, 70% of darwin's buildings destroyed! good grief, that must have been grim to experience. your family must have some stories to tell about that, hope they were all ok

tracey seems to have been an outlier at the other end of the scale from sandy- very small, but very intense, compared to sandy's much less intense, but very large

but even then, sustained wind speeds over 1 minute were 'only' (!)125mph, whereas in tip they were 190 mph; and the storm covered an area equivalent to half the continental USA. Thank goodness nothing like that has ever hit a heavily populated area,

best wishes

gregor
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK: I took issue with your comment "honestly do people have no idea how poor NJ is? Its one of the most down trodden states in the US..". The fact is it isn't as whole. Nor is it particularly unequal. Camden may be a shit-hole but say that, not that the whole state is.
John Rushby - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I was replyign more to the handwringers, but yeah, there was a good explanation of what happened and the storm cats on R4 this morning - interesting stuff.
Blue Straggler - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:

Why do you keep picking elements of a state to represent an entire state?
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: It contains some of the poorest cities in the US. Much of these responses are city level, Camden can't pay its police force. trenton isn't much better.

Therefore its a poor state. Yes the New York bordering areas have money, the south is poor. The south was where the storm hit.
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to MG) It contains some of the poorest cities in the US. Much of these responses are city level, Camden can't pay its police force. trenton isn't much better.
>
> Therefore its a poor state.


"There is someone on minimum wage in Mayfair, therefore it's a really poor area"
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler: Because that is the reality.. you can't suggest that North NJ is like S NJ..

the medians include the rich north. When talking about how there are no poor black communities its pretty important to actually understand what the regions hit are actually socio-economically like. They are poor black communities which were hit. Some of the poorest in the US.

Cumberland County must be one of the poorest counties in the USA, it is certainly downtrodden. it looks a nice area but spend time in areas like Millville and you realise its not.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: That is brilliant.. 2 in 5 below the poverty line.. officially THE poorest city in the USA and you compare it to Mayfair.. superb.
tony on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK, MG and anyone else playing:

What is this, poverty top trumps?
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to tony: OK sandy hit a rich white area therefore there were only 15 odd deaths as the big bad USA only care about rich white folks...
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to tony: Its just incredulous reading the pre-concieved ideas and how people manipulate facts to support those ideas... the actual reality is very different from what is said on here. but hey that's just someone who has spent a fair amount of time in NJ and the NE..
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to MG) That is brilliant.. 2 in 5 below the poverty line.. officially THE poorest city in the USA and you compare it to Mayfair.. superb.

Read it again and think a little more.
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG: Great reply...
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to MG) Great reply...

Do you see where you went wrong?

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to MG:

Can you see where you are both going wrong..?
MG - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Yep!
IainRUK - on 31 Oct 2012
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: What that the big bad racist USA which lets black people die in storms.. actually didn't let that happen.. NJ is agriculture (garden state) so lots of poor farm workers and trailer parks. Credit where credit is due here.

They learnt lessons on how to act pre and post hurricane. TBH its exceptional so few were killed and a huge credit to the responses on the various bodies involved. Some tragic stories coming out, but all in all I think they got out of this as well as they could have hoped. They could never prevent such a storm surge.

The lab I work at in Virginia (delmava penisnula) was recently rebuilt to the new regulations required by any federal funded building in coastal areas to cope with such surges, and its fine despite being inundated by the sea.

Interesting that the NY marathon is still planning on going ahead...
Blue Straggler - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to IainRUK:

I understand what you are saying, because it is not complicated. I understand medians etc. You have not actually answered the straightforward question that I asked you, in any meaningful way. Your posts have a real "Four Yorkshiremen" air to them. We get that you have spent time in these impoverished parts of New Jersey. Some may even salute you for it. Your subjectivity is really not doing you any favours in this bizarre and pointless argument, and I know you are (or at least once were) above all this sort of nonsense.
IainRUK - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to Blue Straggler: Aye.. in fact its a nice area.. great road running..

Pretty sick of the anti-US sentiments constantly aired.. just huge amount of ignorance and preconceived ideas. It is downtrodden, which is what I said and MG disagreed using median stats. Go there, or just read about the place.

Either way the poor black areas were helped, they weren't in Katrina. The differing responses are due to lessons learnt not the preferred status of one group of people..
MG - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to IainRUK:
>
> Pretty sick of the anti-US sentiments constantly aired.. just huge amount of ignorance and preconceived ideas. It is downtrodden, which is what I said and MG disagreed using median stats. Go there, or just read about the place.


"It" being Camden (or similar towns) or NJ? I have never disagreed with you about Camden but you can't extrapolate from that to NJ as a whole, any more than one (or several) poor person in a rich neighbourhood makes the whole neighbourhood poor. And drop the anti-US and ignorance lines - I almost certainly have deeper connections to the US than you.
ads.ukclimbing.com
IainRUK - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to MG: wow why don't you go for the bigger dick card.. probably, I just work trans-atlantic been there every month for over two years.

I just think NJ is downtrodden for vast swathes of the state. That's my experience, and not just camden (Camden was just the extreme example). However it borders two major cities in NYC and Philly so you do have the nice suburbs and areas of high wages. But its that bad in NJ that you cannot hold a federal funded position and not live within the state. That fact highlights that they want people who earn to reside in the state and not in the more affluent states surrounding it.

It has large poor black communities and this thread, and a few on UKC on the past few days, have suggested that the lack of deaths was due to the ethnic make up. Much of the delmava area was also hit, same with DC. Baltimore isn't a great area either, but luckily it missed the worst. There are plenty of poor areas in that Atlantic coast/NE region. But the lack of deaths was due to early actions and lessons learnt from katrina. You can try to argue all you want to detract from that.

But the US is like Europe, Mass is incomparable to TX in many ways so I'm not sure knowing the US is that much of a thing as I find I know TX (and even TX varies drastically E>W), and OK is as different to Maine as France to Portugal in many ways.


IainRUK - on 01 Nov 2012
In reply to MG: And I didn't accuse you of the anti-US, it was others who were saying that the US acted to save rich whites as opposed to the poor blacks witH Katrina..

I also do wonder how much Obama is using this well and saw Sandy as a great opportunity to save his presidency. After the Benghazi contraversy (going Las Vegas), he stayed, oversaw and has now toured the damaged areas. Romneys carried on campaigning, BO hasn't mentioned the election yet, even Christie is now lavishing praise on him.

Bush's response to 9/11 gave him a huge basis of support, almost unheard of levels, Americans like a strong leader and I reckon BO's response could save him as Romney tbf had turned around the election and now stands a real chance of being elected.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.