In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Wonko The Sane)
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> Your argument is a bit like the joke "the one who dies with the most money wins". The idea is not to be part of the biggest trading block with the biggest economy -- the aim is quality of life! OF COURSE a bigger entity with a much larger population can easily have a larger economy, but the important thing is not the total, its the amount PER HEAD OF POPULATION.
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It's a bit like ~Tesco. They have everything under one roof, so people shop there. It's similar with trading blocks.
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> Yep, and plenty of places with "small and unimportant economies" can be high up in wealth PER POPULATION and in QUALITY OF LIFE. Shall I list them all again?
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I have already SAID this in effect, but I've yet to hear how it's achieved.
It's ok losing your objectivity and being sarcastic, but it does not answer HOW you will change the UK (and it's rather demanding population) from a consumer lead economy into one which concentrates on quality of life.
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> Look, it's quite simple. Free trade with us benefits both AND THEM. We sell them 280 billion of stuff a year but the rest of the EU sells us 310 billion of stuff a year. They will not want to stop selling us stuff! They are not going to say, "Now that you're not in the EU, we'll refuse to sell you any BMWs, Audis, Mercs, VWs, Skodas, Volvos, Citroens, Renaults, Alfa Romeos, Fiats etc". Access to our market is our bargaining tool.
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No, free trade is only a benefit to THEM if there is something they NEED from us that they cannot get elsewhere.
A bit like in my last job, where if possible, I would go to an existing contractor to do a job because the fact they get a lot of work from us means they will accept smaller profit margins. If I needed something specialist which they cannot provide, I had to source it elsewhere and pay through the nose for it.
Me giving them the occasional bit of work did not support their entire business.
> Further, the world is gradually moving to more open trade and fewer trade barriers, with GATT agreements and similar. The idea that the EU will only trade with other EU nations is bonkers.
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No it isn't The world is moving toward larger trading blocks with trading agreements negotiated between them.
> (NB, I'm not even going to bother replying to your alternative suggestion of an isolationist "self sufficient" economy, that idea is completely gaga).
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Except it works for some of the countries you keep going on about. I did not say isolationist, I said self sufficient. I also said I do not see how it can be implemented.
> However, I will make the more general point that, if you're worried about our economy competing with internationally, then joining Euroland is no panacea. We would *still* be competing with Germany just as much (perhaps more so) within Euroland as outside it -- only then we'd have thrown away the one big equaliser, the one big safety net, namely a floating currency. The effect of that is that if we're less successful then our currency depreciates, and that re-balances things, makes our goods cheaper to others, and makes us competitive again! It is a quite wonderful mechanism for balancing international trade.
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I did not say it is a panacea. I said it was the best PRACTICAL solution (for the thrid time of it being ignored)
> Without that mechanism Greece and other Mediterranean countries are stuffed. They are faced with a future of competing against Germany *without* that floating exchange rate, and there is no way they can do it. No sensible projection ends with Greece paying off its debts and competing again! They are a long-term basket case owing to the Euro. To have thrown away that floating currency was utterly bonkers, economic madness justified instead by the political aim of "ever closer union".
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In the short term, under current circumstances, I agree. But a Federal Europe has an end game, it's not all about instant gratification.
> Don't you see that the floating currency offers by far the best protection against the threat of uncompetitiveness that concerns you? You have a sensible concern, but you're totally overlooking the best weapon of all to protect against it!
I won't disagree that the implementation of a single currency is premature. But it's there. It isn't going to fall apart, it won't be allowed to happen. So my OTHER concerns of being increasingly isolated take precidence.