/ Lack of first ascent details in Logbook

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
Why are so many of the first ascent details not mentioned in the logbooks against the climbs? This should surely be easy to obtain from the guidebooks.
AJM - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

Why not start entering them then?

The data is almost all user-entered, so it's not there because no one has added it yet.

Get cracking if it bothers you.
In reply to Al Evans: Everything in the Logbooks is contributed by users Al - so get cracking! Any routes you want to add FA details to, just click the [edit climb] link underneath each route description.

Similarly the route height and number of pitches can be added at the same time.

Many thanks
Iain Peters - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> Why are so many of the first ascent details not mentioned in the logbooks against the climbs? This should surely be easy to obtain from the guidebooks.

I guess it's because most people can't be bothered Al.

Fraser on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

I suppose some people would find it interesting. Personally, I'm not that bothered about who did it first, and how. It's the route itself that grabs me....or not.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Iain Peters: Well I guess I'll mostly just enter when it's me whose done it, but I'll enter any I know for sure too. I like the history of climbing, it meant a lot to me to be doing a Joe Brown or Iain Peters route, as much as it did a Livesey or Fawcett route. Perhaps other people on here can help with the first ascent lists?
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Fraser:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> I suppose some people would find it interesting. Personally, I'm not that bothered about who did it first, and how. It's the route itself that grabs me....or not.

Do you really mean that, does it not give you a tingle when you climb Right Unconquerable to think that Joe Brown was doing that in 1949, have you no sense of history?
The Pylon King on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Fraser)
> [...]
>
> Do you really mean that, does it not give you a tingle when you climb Right Unconquerable to think that Joe Brown was doing that in 1949, have you no sense of history?

I don't think most climbers give a shit unfortunately.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies: It is unfortunate, many will not realise the importance Winston Churchill was to the cause of democracy and the independence of the UK and most of the western world, but he is there in the background. It is similar with climbing, these histories of the first ascents were how trad climbing was formed, we should all as climbers be aware of our history.
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Fraser: Did you know for instance that the first ascent of Aurora at Stoney Middleton was done by Frank Elliot in 1933, a stunning performance.
Iain Peters - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Fraser)
> [...]
>
> Do you really mean that, does it not give you a tingle when you climb Right Unconquerable to think that Joe Brown was doing that in 1949, have you no sense of history?


I agree with you Al, and whilst there are some like Fraser above, who aren't the slightest bit interested, there are many others for whom the history of a climb, and sometimes the myths and stories surrounding the FA add to their appreciation of a route. The problem is that, where the actual climbing is concerned, literally dragging the weight of history up a climb, combined with all the essential modern paraphernalia, is the last straw! Take the excellent Rockfax selected climbs: instead of detailed descriptions and interesting anecdote, you get pages of full colour ads and hundreds of action photos, both of which add weight to your overburdened harness.

I reckon that within 5 years your printed guide will be bigger, heavier and more expensive, smaller print runs offset by higher production values and excellent writing. Every other bit of information you will need to reach and climb your chosen route wherever it is will be a couple of clicks away inside an electronic package weighing no more than a couple of krabs.


The Pylon King on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies) It is unfortunate, many will not realise the importance Winston Churchill was to the cause of democracy and the independence of the UK and most of the western world, but he is there in the background. It is similar with climbing, these histories of the first ascents were how trad climbing was formed, we should all as climbers be aware of our history.

I totally agree, i love the history.
deepstar - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans: To me the history of routes is very important(some would say at my age it has to be)but while on the subject of what is shown in the logbooks I think cragshots and a brief description are very helpful and I am surprised at the number of climbs that have no information at all.
Iain Peters - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies) It is similar with climbing, these histories of the first ascents were how trad climbing was formed, we should all as climbers be aware of our history.

True, but we also have to recognize that the culture is always changing, and climbing is (and always has been) essentially about getting out there and doing. Our generation look back fondly at what we consider to be a "golden, if fairly anarchic, age", one where we were intent on pushing the boundaries and rejecting the establishment. That process continues with a new generation who may well have come to climbing through plastic walls and bolts. It's possibly fast food, X Factor influenced but the adventurous ones will still seek out the full-on trad experience.

Sadly, definitive guidebook production, as it stands at the moment is hugely expensive both in time and money, despite the vast amount of work done by volunteers. How long the clubs or commercial publishers can continue churning out big print runs of volumes containing pages and pages of routes that few will climb is a moot point. That is where IT can save the heritage of the sport. We will soon have the choice of all the history and peripheral information either on our mobiles or sitting prettily on the shelf as a permanent record.

Monk - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to deepstar:
> (In reply to Al Evans) ...while on the subject of what is shown in the logbooks I think cragshots and a brief description are very helpful and I am surprised at the number of climbs that have no information at all.

The problem is that it takes time and effort to input that data. I moderate the Avon crags, and while I would love for them to be a complete record, I simply don't have the time to sit and write route descriptions for all the routes or to input first ascent details (which are difficult to pull out of CC guides, as they are listed separately at the back of the guide). I'd be very miffed if the first ascent details were missed out of a printed/published guide, but the UKC logbooks are a little different.
Simon Caldwell - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> many will not realise the importance Margaret Thatcher was to the cause of democracy and the independence of the UK and most of the western world, but she is there in the background.

Fixed that for you ;-)
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: Grrrrrrrrrr!
Fraser on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Fraser) Did you know for instance that the first ascent of Aurora at Stoney Middleton was done by Frank Elliot in 1933, a stunning performance.

I didn't know that and frankly, don't feel a lesser person for it. I've never climbed there, quite probably never will and only know of Stoney from having read Jerry Moffat's book. I'd maybe get some incentive from hearing about a route's reputation, but not its FA details.

Similarly for 'Right Unconquerable'. Without searching UKC, I couldn't tell you where it is. I've heard the name, but other than a that, I know nothing of it. And yes, I do have a sense of history, but in the grand scheme of things, it's still only ever a climb. If you or whoever chooses to attach more to it than that, that's fine, I won't say you're wrong. But for me, there's no connection I'm afraid. I'm happy if you wish to consider me a bad person for my opinion as again, it doesn't bother me either way.

There's much more rock in this country than the stuff in middle England, tramped up by the masses. ;) (I'm assuming the route's in mddle England - apologies if it's not!)

In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Iain Peters) Well I guess I'll mostly just enter when it's me whose done it, but I'll enter any I know for sure too. I like the history of climbing, it meant a lot to me to be doing a Joe Brown or Iain Peters route, as much as it did a Livesey or Fawcett route. Perhaps other people on here can help with the first ascent lists?

I agree completely with you Al. Users have already entered FA details of 50,000 routes, but hopefully threads like this one will get more users keen on entering the details of routes.

Personally I think the web is the perfect place for details of first ascents and other history. I'd even like to see stories about how the route names came about, background to the first ascents, etc.

Cheers
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

I suspect first ascents will always mean the most to first ascensionists. Which is a shame. I need to know these things. Mainly so that I can groan artistically whenever I see a Joe Brown route :-)
ads.ukclimbing.com
Simon Caldwell - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Fraser:
> There's much more rock in this country than the stuff in middle England

Do you know anything about the history of Sassenach, Centurian, The Bat, etc on Ben Nevis? All fascinating stuff. Of course you can climb there without knowing about it, but it does add something.

I'd recommend the excellent SMC "history" books on the Cairngorms and Ben Nevis.
Mark Kemball - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans: Getting info into the database is a labour of love. I've just spent a lot of my spare time over the last 3 weeks trying to get the route info for the Culm Coast and Atlantic Coast into the database in preparation for starting work on the new guide, it was hours of work. For routes in the definitive guide, I just entered the name and grade, post guidebook routes got more details.
Mike Stretford - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Fraser)
> [...]
>
> Do you know anything about the history of Sassenach

Would that be the route Don Whillans and Joe Brown bagged?
Simon Caldwell - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Papillon:
> Would that be the route Don Whillans and Joe Brown bagged?

That's the one.
Mike Stretford - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Toreador: Those two lads must have learnt a thing or two with all that climbing in 'middle' England!
jkarran - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

> Why are so many of the first ascent details not mentioned in the logbooks against the climbs? This should surely be easy to obtain from the guidebooks.

But it's tedious to enter and not always straightforward to find (sometimes being in a chronological appendix, not the main text).
jk
Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]

I'd even like to see stories about how the route names came about, background to the first ascents, etc.
>
> Cheers

Ok I'll go along with that, but where would we put them Nick?
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Nick Smith - UKC)
>> I'd even like to see stories about how the route names came about, background to the first ascents, etc.
>
> Ok I'll go along with that, but where would we put them Nick?

Plenty of room in the main description field, after the actual route description? I'd suggest leaving the FA field as just a single line with the names of the climber(s).

Thanks
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

Out of interest, Al, how many first ascents have you done?
Jonny2vests - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies) It is unfortunate, many will not realise the importance Winston Churchill was to the cause of democracy and the independence of the UK and most of the western world, but he is there in the background. It is similar with climbing, these histories of the first ascents were how trad climbing was formed, we should all as climbers be aware of our history.

For me, that's what the guide book is for.
Fiend - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Nick Smith - UKC:

> Everything in the Logbooks is contributed by users - so get cracking!

And then you get:

Your Crag was not submitted because of the following error(s):

• We don't accept submissions from your machine which has recently been used to send spam

Please correct these error(s) and re-submit.
(You can return to the form by using the back button in your browser.)



Woot woot!

Al Evans on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Out of interest, Al, how many first ascents have you done?

Good grief, not as many as Gary Gibson or Joe Brown, but certainly in the hundreds!
Ava Adore - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

You da man! ;-)
Andy Moles - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:

For the majority of climbs the history of the first ascent probably isn't all that fascinating, unless you were there. Info worth having in a guidebook, but putting a couple of names next to every route in the UKC logbook seems like a lot of effort for not much.
Al Evans on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: I once put up a website with a link to a page list of all my first ascents, they include the whole of the UK, Norway and Spain, but Gary and Joe outrank me by hundreds.
The website sadly died.
Al Evans on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Ava Adore: By the way, Ava Adorable has been repeated, quality and grade confirmed, never found out the name of the bloke on it, or even how he knew about, have you been telling people? Though I guess he could have found it on Wikitopo.
craigloon - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Ava Adore) I once put up a website with a link to a page list of all my first ascents, they include the whole of the UK, Norway and Spain, but Gary and Joe outrank me by hundreds.
> The website sadly died.

Try the Wayback Machine, you might still be able to access the page:

http://archive.org/web/web.php
Jim Walton on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Fraser: We stand on the shoulders of Giants, these great men and Women forged the way for the current generation. Let us not forget them...

“Study the past if you would define the future” ― Confucius

"If you don't know history, then you don't know anything. You are a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree" - Mark Twain
scott titt - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Jim Walton:
Or "History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's dam is the history we made today." Henry Ford
Offwidth - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to scott titt:

you missed "(car manufacturere and salesman)"
ads.ukclimbing.com

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.