UKC

Jim Pope, aged 13, decided to try some Trad. Not only did Jim cruise up two E6's at Burbage South, they were also his first trad routes. Nosfertu was the first to go down on his list, getting dispatched first headpoint attempt. The second was Life Assurance, also first head headpoint attempt which he led on pre-placed gear.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67583

In reply to UKC News: Nice one Jim.

I was only 34 and 1/2 when I ticked them.

In reply to UKC News: One day I might be as good as him, Mark Collins Aged 39 3/4.

In reply to UKC News:

I knew I was ready for the lead. I started climbing steadily through the lower section and before I knew it I was already at the break placing some gear. I was very calm when I was climbing and everything went perfectly. Landing the top dyno, I topped out!

Blimey.

In reply to UKC News: Very impressive...good luck to him!

In reply to UKC News:

Excellent!

In reply to UKC News: Wow! that's impressive, also i've the impression that no words are needed when someone smile and look at you this way,i smile back realizing the message is complete.Good job

In reply to UKC News:

Impressive!, those are not particularly safe routes.

In reply to UKC News:

Yeah, but what's he done on... oh, never mind.

In reply to Taurig: He,he,he,handy one

In reply to UKC News:
Big lad for a one year old, isn't he?

In reply to UKC News:

I saw Joy Division play when i was 13 and had my first band. Kids today eh!

In reply to UKC News:

"At the weekend, Leah invited me up to the Peaks"...

Has Al Evans seen this?

In reply to Cthulhu:

Corrected

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

Aww, no! Should have left it, it would have given us all a giggle whilst Al went off on one of his famous rants...

In reply to UKC News:
What the hell is it with climbing videos and godawful raprockhiphop music.. why!?

In reply to Guy Atkinson:

No imagination/blindly following trends syndrome.

In reply to Guy Atkinson: I always assumed people put the music they liked on videos, and weren't really bothered what you thought.

Good work Jim, incredibly stretched out on a few of those moves, very impressive!

In reply to UKC News:

I really don't understand what's happened to his foot in the photo. Someone explain please...

In reply to UKC News: A rising star in the making. Good luck to him.

In reply to UKC News:
V Impressive to see someone so young doing these routes. Good luck to him.

In reply to jon:
Yes, I was wondering that too! Has he actually got three feet as there appear to be two feet on one let? In which case would it be an E4 rather than an E6 for him?!

I've tried Nosferatu on a top rope and found it desperate, plus not sure I'd have the balls to lead it even if I had it wired, given the nasty pointy block at the bottom. Hats off to the lad!

In reply to Misha: He's got his heel on the flake, with the toe down and out, towards the camera. We're looking at the inside of his foot

And yeah, many congratulations are in order to the lad! I thought I was clever getting up an HVS on my first day. Turns out... Not so much.

In reply to Madden:

Got it! It's one of those things you just can't make out... but once you see it you can't see how you didn't!

In reply to UKC News: Totally awesome! Excellent selfcontrol!

In reply to jon: It's his ridiculously downturned shoes, fooling your eyes into thinking he's got 2 heels!

In reply to UKC News:

Nice to see the young people having fun, with, y'know, sponsors and tickmarks and everything.

Wonder how he'd go on Moon Crack?!

jcm

In reply to UKC News:
Don't apologise for the quality of the video. Filmed as it happens from a fixed camera is so much better than a lot of the unnecessarily gimmicky stuff. Terrible music though!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not the most generous comment you've ever made jcm.

Nothing to say the ticks are his - though they probably are i agree. He's headpointing the routes and i saw only a couple of tick marks for feet on Nosferatu at the top. I reckon the chalk all the way up it gave him more info. No more different than many/most climbers do. AFter ( i am guessing ) Leah went up it on a top rope it would have chalk on it, if it wasn't there already. Is she supposed to wash normal chalk marks off after he's seen where the holds are anyway ? The holds on the second climb looked as though they'd had chalk on them to dry them as footholds on the top slab, just my opinion.

I tickmarked on a redpoint yesterday on a technical sequence at the top. I don't hide the fact that i did and it's my choice. As long as they are gone when you finish no harm done. He's not hiding them is he ? For his first leads then i think sensible steps like that make sense. He's only 13 so other people are effectively having to make safety decisions for him.

As for sponsors can you cite an example where being sponsored has done harm to someone ? I can't think of one but it would be interesting to know. I suppose that's what you're getting at by your remark.

Can you imagine the negative impact on their brand if they pushed a child to do something that hurt him ? If it is a dangerous thing he's lucky to be coached by someone who has been sponsored since a young age and seems to have come out of it relatively sane and managed to make a career out of doing something she loves. I guess she can give him a steer down the right path.

In reply to biscuit:

Jim climbed 8a too recently: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67476

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

But what did he really say? If he said "Peaks" leave it as it was, surely?

In reply to UKC News:

Just wait till he finds out about beer and girls and his strength to weight ratio drops through his arse....

Though seriously good climb, hope he continues for as long as he enjoys himself

In reply to biscuit:


This is an interesting question. Few heroes are going to admit to a negative side to sponsorship in public but it might be interesting to get one or two drunk and see what they said.

If I recall correctly, James McHaffie felt the subtle pressures of needing to achieve for sponsors was a factor in him pushing it nearly terminally on Master's Wall. There have been a number of recent high-profile solos with attendant film crew which do make you wonder who is the monkey and who is the organ grinder.

In reply to Mutl3y:

Agreed. If he didn't say Peaks, you haven't corrected it, you've just altered an accurate report to an inaccurate one. How is that journalism?

In reply to UKC News:
Fine effort.

In reply to flaneur: Yes this filming of solo's is only going to end one way - somebody, someday is going to make that fatal mistake on camera. I don't like watching people soloing partly for this reason and also because shouldn't the desire to solo something be an entirely person decision? Not an ego led one?

Anyway top marks to the young un
Impressive stuff but it was a little cringeworthy when he was being asked questions at the top. He should have been left to take it all in. If the media demanded an interveiw at least do it afterwards and let him enjoy his achievement. If somebody stuck a camera in my face at the top of a hard route I would be likely to tell them to piss off!

In reply to James Oswald: I'm massively impressed by the climbing, and I second the comment that the lad's obvious pleasure at the top speaks for itself.

At the same time, these routes do seem to have a certain damage potential. As a teacher, I wouldn't have the cocones to send a 13 year old up either route for their first lead. What would our collective reaction have been if he'd fallen off and made a mess of himself? Would we be happy that he had made all the important decisions himself?

In reply to flaneur:

I should add I don't think any of this applies to Jim. Impressive stuff. I was still trying to blow-up model aircraft with fireworks at his age.

In reply to the thread:

What amazes me about this is that people usually take some time to get used to grit. Neither indoor plastic nor overhanging limestone sport is going to give you the feel of a grit slab like Life Assurance. (Or maybe he's done quite a bit of grit bouldering, with these being his first "routes"? Certainly the way he shot up Nosferatu on lead shows confidence on grit.)

In reply to UKC News:
This will just make my 11yr old daughter nag me more to let her lead harder grades on grit!

In reply to UKC News:

Jim has just done his first trad routes which are both graded E6 (coincedently not long after his first F8a), at age 13, and people are mentioning tick marks etc! You really can't please some people!

Awesome effort Jim! All the dedication is clearly paying off, keep cranking!

In reply to James Malloch:

Only 1 mentioned them in a negative way and the other was attempting to get the thread back on track.

I love his climbing style and the fact that he climbed Nosferatu almost exactly the same on lead as he did on top rope. No hesitation and every movement was about going up and done positively. Just a slight hesitation before the dyno that was probably brought about by stopping his flow to put gear in.

In reply to UKC News:

Very impressive climbing no doubt.
Second what someone else said about the implications if had serious injury. Does a 13 year old really have informed consent about the implications of serious injury, i.e about the implications of falling off a route? Most teenagers don't have this grasp, thats why we do crazy things we look back on later in life.

He however is out with adults which may allow him a measure of security, 'that it is alright'.
If he fell off and had a serious head injury no doubt there would be a multitude of people ranting about the 'irresponsibility' or even negligence of letting a 13 yr old climb potential chop routes.

Just a thought.

In reply to flaneur:

I remember reading an account of this once but can't remember for the life of me where. Seem to remember it bought me out in a cold sweat. Anyone got a link.

In reply to Simon_Sheff:


Interesting point this and one which the climbing community is maybe on the back foot over.

Sports like BMXing and Skateboarding presumably had to deal with this years ago. I doubt falling off of Nosferatu is necessarily any more dangerous than messing up a backflip off a ramp on a BMX or messing up 10 steps or whatever, face first on a skateboard, yet kids are doing these tricks every weekend up and down the country.

I suspect it will increasingly cease to be an issue adults have to make a decision over anyway. As more and more kids get into climbing, the more they'll be empowered to get out with their mates and without mum and dad and the question of whether or not to allow little Tom, Dick or Harry to jump on Master's Edge is one that the kids will start to answer for themselves.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

He'd probably walk up it!!

That's nowt. When I were 6yrs old I downclimbed North Face o' Eiger. Did Revelations wi one 'and behind me back when I were 10. Then climbed Prow on Burbage in a pair o' trainers, wi only a reel o' cotton fer a rope an' paper clips for runners. (Well done Jim lad!)

In reply to dmhigg:

Fantastic effort but my thoughts too

In reply to Sonya Mc: If you look at the draws above the climber you can see the overhang by their angle to the rock. No idea on the route though...

In reply to UKC News: Don't forget that as well as this, the Popester has climbed 8a at 13 http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67476 and, as a member of the GB team competing in his first year in Europe, cracked the rare achievement of topping one of his comp routes. The boy's a beast, and a modest, funny lad too.

In reply to UKC News: what a lad! saw him climbing at a comp at mile end climbing wall and he got up a slab problem none of the adult men finished except for the eventual winner! go Jim!

In reply to Alister Martin:

I bumped into him at the Wideboyz talk the other weekend, he said if he hadn't been confident that the route was within his abilities then he wouldn't have tried it.

As you say - he's a great lad, very modest and so enthusiastic that you can't help but like him.

Si

In reply to biscuit:
"only 1 negative comment" - r u some "we all have to be positive" policeman here?
So a young kid has cruised a couple of E6s as his first trad routes - good for him - and for what it is worth I have only head pointed one grit route (kaluza klein) - and was struck that whilst many people diss this style of climbing it still feels bloody scary – especially as I could only get the crux at best 2 out of three goes...
As an old fart I do sympathise with the thought that "at 13 I saw Joy Division" and to be frank I wish I had seen Joy division more than head pointing any E6 however young and impressive! For me there is something here of lost youth and adventure; perhaps an ” American Beauty” moment of just spending your summers earning money flipping burgers and getting laid... rather than training like an Olympic Athelete and getting your coach to guide you up whatever route. And whilst I dont have a beard I would be more impressed by some kids buying some climbing gear with money they had scraped together, heading out to Stanage on the bus and climbing some VDiffs on their own. Oh thats how I started!
But in these days of kids living on computers and parents and schools managing the risk out of everything – absolutely hat off to the young dude.
Cheers,

In reply to simon cox: I speant my summers as a Kid cleaning warehouses and trying to get laid, I would have been much happier headpointing E6!

In reply to UKC News:


Keep pushing the poor kid like this and by 23 he'll be dead! If he's lucky.

Aren't children allowed to have a childhood anymore... well done the ghoulish "sponsors"

N°2.

In reply to UKC News: Sponsors logo on a photo of a young kid doing something so dangerous doesn't sit too well with me.

Cool and talented lad though.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: What a load of old tripe. That poor kid is giving the impression that he's just had one of the greatest experiences of his life. As for the ghoulish sponsors, he probably gets nothing more than a few tshirts and free entry to the climbing wall.
For one of the mature climbers on here it sounds like you may have lost your spirit of adventure, look at John Allen bunking off school to put up hard first ascents or Toru travelling halfway around the world to climb his dream routes at 15.
Nosferatu and Life Assurance aren't going to kill him, he pissed both of them and I'm sure the drive up the M1 was the most dangerous part of his weekend.

In reply to the thread:

I wonder if he's reading this thread, thinking that it's really weird to be talked about.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Well said!

I was leading about French 7a+ when I on-sighted Life Assurance. I know it's about as far away from a sports route as you can get, but I think I would've a little more confident if I had been an 8a climber at the time! The physical difficulty is probably not much higher than French 6c/7a.

Although mind-blowingly impressive for his first leads, these 2 routes are well beneath what Jim could actually be climbing!

In reply to Sonya Mc: I think the route in the shot is the uber classic DNA in the Grande Grotto. It looks much more impressive in real life, though it's not 8a. 7a or 7a+ to the first chains these days I think (a good 20-25m in it's own right), and there is a long extension above at 8a+.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

The only person "pushing the poor kid" is Jim.
He seems to me to live and breathe climbing - he loves it and is good at it. He *is* having a childhood - I'm sure he leaves his room in a state, gets told off for not doing homework or staying up too late just like every other kid of his age.

All this hand wringing, "ooh, it's dangerous - he's only a child, won't somebody think of the children!" type stuff would be less ridiculous if it came from people who know the lad or what he is capable of.

Would you all feel better if his dad was with him at the time?

Was all this said about people like Pete and Katy Whittaker or Leo Holding? Genuine question btw.

Cheers,

Si

In reply to Bruce Hooker: All kids do dangerous stuff, at least here he's being taught and guided properly, kids who take drugs and binge drink are probably in more danger. He seems to understand the risks of trad climbing pretty well. He looked pretty smooth on those routes, I'm sure no adults who understand climbing would push a 13 year old onto a bold route that was beyond them.

In reply to SCC:


Yes it was. Houlding's lead of Lord of the Flies, by head-torch, in the middle of the night, aged 15, attracted this sort of comment.

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH: "Although mind-blowingly impressive for his first leads, these 2 routes are well beneath what Jim could actually be climbing!"

Nonetheless, if I was introducing my F6a climbing friend to his first trad climbing lead, I would be looking for VS 5a, rather than E2 5a.

Interesting debate. I'd like to hear Leah Crane's take on the day.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

If that were the case how come he has sponsors and an article about him on ukc? Was it a random ukc "reporter " who just happened on him?

Kids doing dangerous things is no problem, it's what we all did at that age (not so technical as him, granted) but it seems too young to get into the celeb mode. There was another a year or two ago who was promoted by his dad, eulogising web site and all... by 20 or so there was a follow up obituary on the same youngster.

Let's hope I'm wrong.

In reply to dmhigg: But someone climbing F6a is likely to have very little experience compard to Jim who is climbing 10/11 grades higher.

Leah is also his coach (99% certain on this) and knows his abilities. She wouldn't put him on something she think was dangerous for him, which has been proved by him walking up two E6's! As mentioned also, the climbing on the routes is a lot easier than what he would usually do so if he can keep his head then I can't see the problem.

In reply to James Malloch:

It doesn't matter how hard you can climb on bolts; it doesn't help you place gear, assess it's trustworthiness and make an informed decision on whether to go for it or not (Oh yes, the gear was preplaced..... that's the only thing which bothered me - trad climbing without bothering with some important trad climbinbg skills). Very impressive nonetheless.

In reply to Robert Durran: If you hold that opinion wouldn't it have bothered you more if the gear wasn't preplaced? When you take the gear out of the situation then it does matter how hard you climb on bolts!

In reply to Robert Durran: One of the leads was on pre placed gear which will have been checked I assume. Not sure about the other but I'd assume it was okay to place for him and be pretty bomber or that would have been placed also.

Only an assumption but I imagine it would be fine. Definately impressive though!

In reply to James Malloch: There is a question of relevant experience here. Sport routes tend to be more forgiving than headpoints. When most of us (I guess) learned to lead, we were either on routes which were so easy that if we fell we'd probably stay in the same place, or so well protected that if we couldn't keep our heads, we stood a very good chance of surviving intact. An E6 6b headpoint doesn't fit into these categories, especially since E2 6b or E3 6b are available. However, as you say, most of us weren't climbing 8a. As I said above, an interesting debate.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Am helping out another good young UK climber with some trad climbing, and we are trying out on easy trad climbs (vs/hvs)so the gear placing skils can be honed before trying more tricky climbs. Got stick for posting said climber up scrambles - VS scrambles!

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Ta.

Si

PS I am pleased to note that they're all still not dead!

In reply to UKC News: nice one, jim! awesome job

In reply to Paul Phillips - UKC and UKH:

How tall is this lad? He looks well stretched out on Nosferatu.

I think this is great. Jim did really well. He seems a nice lad, a great climber and in my mind the future of British climbing(or at least a part of it).
Good Luck to him and really it's not as dangerous as some people are making out. he's climbing well within his 'tech' limit and experiencing a new style of climbing and i think it's really positive and not something he should be denied.
I also think some people have forgotten climbing is great fun, he's hardly a slave. he's doing what he loves and i for one hope he keeps it up.
WELL DONE JIM

Edit:
He's short.... but on the positive, after seeing him climb stuff i couldn't touch, i no longer have my height to use as an excuse

In reply to simon cox:


Nope i'm not a 'positive policeman'. I replied to jcm who made a negative comment, then James came on and said there were negative comments which he disagreed with. I pointed out that at that time there had only been one negative comment and my response against it.

You say good for him and headpointing at that level is bloody scary.
You then say he is losing his youth and adventure as he should have a Mcjob and be out shagging anything that moves, but hats off to the young dude for not being like everyone else.

I'm confused.

Do you like what he did or not ? ;0)

At least you balanced your opinion with a recognition of what he's achieved. Jcm didn't which is why i thought it was a bit out of order.

I guess we just have to trust the adults in his life ( and i don't think anyone on here knows them from what i've read so far). They know him, his abilities and whether he's enjoying himself much better than us so why don't we let them get on with exercising their judgement and keep our opinions about what somebody elses child should be doing to ourselves.

Yes i am aware that posting the videos etc on a public forum invites public opinion but people are just speculating wildly about stuff that we have no idea about.

Impressive stuff.

But what exactly is headpointing two E6's as your first trad routes good coaching for?

And the mats were in the wrong place under Life Assurance. A fall from the top sends you in to the bottom of the crack line on the right - seen this happen to two people.

In reply to ese: Pre-placed gear and mats! May as well call it sport climbing

In reply to Alister Martin:

It's outstanding climbing but reports like this could set us along a path where young competition climbers feel they need to have high E number trad routes on their CV, just like they are now going for 8a sport routes.

When a 13 year old in their peer group has success on E6 there will be a bunch of strong 11 and 12 year olds wondering if they can do E6 and 13 year olds wondering if they can get E7.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

This really depends on the climber. Some high performing teenagers I've known (and known off) were more sensible in their approach to risk than many an internet bleating tradster who'd been around for decades. IMHO there is a lot of bs here on risk and a real young talent trying these two routes as a headpoint may have less risk than said tradster onsighting an HVS. Also in the risk stakes, trad climbing is well below winter, which is below alpine, which ....

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, it could be argued that for a strong sports climber (of whatever age), headpointing big E numbers (especially with preplaced) gear might be easier than learning to trad climb "properly".

In reply to Offwidth:

Maybe there is less risk in a very skilled 13 year old climbing E6 than a less skilled adult climbing HVS - but the adult is old enough to decide how much risk is acceptable to them.

Kids are different: the parents, coaches and sporting bodies have got a responsibility to keep them safe until they are old enough to go their own way.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Actually, the 13 year old alongside their parents can make the same decision. Are you saying you think coaches are not keeping our high performing young stars safe?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Properly in your blinkered opinion. They are not damaging the rock or being dishonest and grit headpointing is an accepted style for bold higher extremes so whats the problem?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


That's what i said above but with a slightly different slant.

My point was that as we have no personal knowledge behind the decisions made, but he creamed the routes and all ended well, we have to assume that the adults in his life are treating him well and the big smile at the end meant it was worthwhile for him.

Other than that we are all just speculating keyboard worrywarts.

There's a word i never thought i'd use, let alone type, but it just came to me.

In reply to biscuit:

I like that. Worrywarts: one step from Major Huffpuffingtons getting upset on the Telegraph letters page.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not worrying about him hurting himself, especially as the gear was pre-placed but it seems a funny way of helping someone into climbing, that's all... You have the feeling that there is some star grooming program going on - someone suggested he was "the future of British climbing (part of)" which seems a really weird thing to say.

I'm rather against pushing/grooming/coaching people into climbing, for the reason I said above and also because a couple of times I've met people who were clearly trying to live their own ambition through their child and it struck me as unhealthy - the look in one kid's eye said this as did meeting them on the mountain the next day with the Alpine apprentice throwing his breakfast up all over the snow, and looking thoroughly miserable

Just an opinion, nothing more and certainly not meaning to attack Jim, who clearly has talent, but wouldn't he get more out of it if he found a partner of his own age and learnt to climb progressively, making his own mistakes and enjoying his own successes?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

When i was 13 I hated interfering busybodies who knew best what I should be doing but deeply repected my parents. I was climbing trees two years earlier. Almost everyone I know has thrown up and looked miserable on a climbing trip. I really think it's up to him what he does providing his parents agree its OK.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

So you think he would be safer with another 13 yr old trad beginner and leave them to it ?

I agree about pushy parents though. However what many of us do not get is what sets us apart from the top performers in any sport/past time and that is drive; to win, to compete or just to be the best.

What was David Beckham doing at 13 ? By his own admission all he ever did was football, football, football. Not because he was pushed into it but because for whatever reason he had an all consuming desire to be great at football.It'll be the same with the vast majority of the elite. They are prepared to put in the hard graft for the greater ( to them ) reward.

If they are pushed by parents they will not succeed as well as if they are doing it for themselves and will eventually drop out. Some kids just have that drive anyway.

Do you think Andy Murray was the product of a pushy mum ? If so now he is a millionaire why hasn't he dropped out and retired ? Same with the Williams sisters. Dad was supposed to be a harsh disciplinarian accused of pushing his daughters into something they didn't want to do and yet they keep coming back after illness and injury for more and more.

I accept climbing with its physical risks is slightly different though but there are plenty of parents who get dragged along by pushy kids.

Again i'll say we have no idea in Jim's case and so i suggest if we want to discuss this interesting topic further we start a new thread.

In reply to biscuit: I agree. New thread.

In reply to dmhigg: jim loves climbing, and is as mature as anyone posting on this thread, and I am sure jim did these routes for this own reasons just as valid as another trad head pointer pushy sponsors, parents and coaches were not why jim did these routes but if jim dad says its ok, he can do what he wants, the routes are physically so easy for him he might aswell be another 13 year old climbing a tree, he took calculated risks
He can do what he wants with his climbing within reason.
Amazing effort jim!
Only positive comments now please!

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm saying that I'd be concerned if young elite climbers started competing against each other trying to be the youngest to get a particular E grade in the same way as there is a competition to be youngest to F8a.

I'm not saying anything about this particular climb which is very impressive, just raising a general concern and it's probably a discussion for a different thread.

In reply to Punter999:

Public thread = no right to say only positive comments please.

When you stick a news item on UKC with the ability to comment on it you will get comments from viewpoints you may never have considered possible :0)

However as you will see by my previous comments i believe the 2 aspects need separating. The topic of young climbers, sponsors, media and risk needs moving away from Jim so it is impersonal. I believe a new thread has now been started.

In reply to biscuit:


Not in particular, safety is hardly an issue for someone climbing, is it? If you want safety you do badminton or something. On the other hand I think it might be more enjoyable and I think climbing is about enjoyment and not competition... I have a horror of competition, grade chasing and such like.

That's my opinion though, nothing more, maybe I'm wrong in thinking this is a forum on which people express their opinions about a subject started by someone else?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Oh god please don't start down the poor little Bruce line again.PLEASE

"All i wanted to do was freely express my opinion and you are oppressing me. "

All that has happened is that you have encountered some people with a view different to yours. That does not mean i/they do not value your opinion any more or less than anyone elses. We just don't agree. No-one has in anyway attempted to stop you from speaking your point of view on the subject.

The point is about can a 13 yr old make informed consent about their safety on a dangerous route ? There is now another thread that has been started so we can take this away from Jim and his impressive ascents into a more generalised discussion.

In reply to Offwidth:

I carefully put the word "properly" in inverted commas for a good reason - precisely to avoid your sort of reaction. You chose to ignore this fact, presumably for your own point-scoring agenda.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not convinced that anyone can guarantee safety on those sort of routes to any reasonable degree of certainty. Not that I am necessarily against this sort of thing.

In reply to biscuit:



An odd comment from someone who just posted:



I don't feel oppressed, do you?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: "well done to the ghoulish sponsors" ! What a load of tosh ! My 11yr old daughter is sponsored by the same people as jim, and they are nothing but supportive of the youth team. They place no pressure to place high in comps or push grades at all. It's nice that they actually see talent and want to support them because at the end of the day they are the future of climbing. Maybe some adults get riled at the fact that a junior out climbs then hence the sarcastic comments, but in reality they've just gotta suck it up and get used to the fact. Jim is a very competent and talented climber, like wise my daughter. You won't see a bigger smile than we she's on sighted a 7b+, or flashed a D5 with me. Funnily enough some children do climb for fun, its not their fault they're talented

In reply to fil-p:

as others have said, there is another thread now to debate the issues around children and bold trad

whatever our views on the issue, from either side, lets leave this one now to recognise an excellent piece of climbing, well done Jim, would love to be able to climb even 10% as well as you one day...


cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Surely you can manage E0.6 ? ;0)

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

As usual Bruce you have the ability to ignore the obvious and see only what you wish.

1 reply and 1 reply only to you before i get whisked away down your strange little whirlpool of thought.

You said:

maybe I'm wrong in thinking this is a forum on which people express their opinions about a subject started by someone else?

Which sounds like someone moaning that they are being disagreed with or not letting someone say what they want i.e. oppressed.

It's your usual defence along the lines of: " Is it cos i is black ? " and makes no sense.

What i said is correct, everyone can write what they want on here, within the law anyway, but even then you can write what you want as long as you accept the consequences. You are the one who whinges when people disagree with you and then argue about free speech.

Bonkers ! I know i am banging my head against a brick wall so i am off to walk the dog and do some scream therapy.

Sorry to clog up this thread again when it was my idea to start another.

In reply to fil-p:


Why do they need sponsors to be the future of climbing? By the nature of things if they continue climbing they will be one little bit of it's future, with or without sponsors.

I don't think anyone is jealous of talent, although it's an accusation that always seems to crop up on this sort of thread.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Sponsers can be quite handy for getting reduced priced climbing gear so there's more money to go round for climbing trips and competitions abroad. Every little bit helps.

In reply to biscuit:

lol, not even sure i can manage to get off the ground at all these days, family responsibilities and too much work, bah!

cheers

gregor

In reply to biscuit:


Not just one reply, read the thread again, if you really have nothing to do. What is funny is that I replied to the same post you did, saying in different words the same thing and then, for reasons which only you know, you found it necessary to post to say I was whingeing!

It's characteristic of these 'Wow Fred Bloggs does 8z in welly boots' threads that any poster who does other than provide sycophantic adulation gets slagged off. A similar fate waits anyone who posts on an accident thread who says anything except "condolences for the family" who often they don't even know, when a far more useful reply would be to try and learn from the events that had led to the problem.

All so Pavlovian.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Welcome to the real world where folk have different views and don't mind expressing them. Being consistent in a line of argument is hardly Pavlovian (unless it applies to all of us, including you).

In reply to UKC News: It's a non-story for me - what 'real' grade does headpointing the routes on pre-placed gear come out at - E3? The E6 grade is for the onsight, putting in the gear as you go. Onsighting is significantly harder (especially in this case where the moves are blind enough to 'require' tickmarks 'cos you get tired working out where to go. Carrying gear, finding placements and placing gear tires you out as well. Headpointing on pre-placed gear is only a little more difficult than toproping! When he does E6s in good style then I'll start paying attention.

In reply to Toerag:

Why piss on a 13 year old boy's parade... were you bullied a lot at school?

In reply to Ciro:

<likes>

In reply to Offwidth:

It's not people having different opinions, I'm all for that, it's the standardised nature of so many threads... which often seems to refuse such variety and press for a uniform response.

In reply to Ciro:

Why crack something up to be what it isn't, not very good pedagogy, is it? Or more to the point, what serious "coach" would start his trainee off as an E6 as his first outdoor lead? Especially placing gear in advance, it's hardly a sensible idea, either ethically or from the point of view of learning... added to the press release and it looks more like an odd sort of publicity stunt than anything else.

Given that he obviously has climbing ability it seems rather a shoddy way to treat him to me as negative reactions were pretty well guaranteed.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Sorry, I must have missed the bit where they claimed it was onsight.


Why shouldn't a coach start with teaching a young talented sport climber how to headpoint before tackling the more dangerous art of onsighting?


Well, given this is UKC I'll give you the fact that negative reactions were pretty well guaranteed, unfortunately. This forum's a poor reflection on our community at times. Thankfully you don't seem to run into the same levels of negativity at the crag.

In reply to Toerag:


What a pitiful attitude! The lad is 13 and getting out there climbing significantly harder than you (according to your logbook - after 11 to 20 years of experience!).

Yes they are not onsight but it would be nice to think that most peoples' first thoughts are more generous than yours and tend more towards the: "Nice one - what a litle beast!" rather than some armchair criticising about style.

Personally I think it is definitely a news item. He has done an 8a recently and has managed 2 grit E6s at the age of 13. In UK climbing terms that is definitely news worthy and I was certainly interested.

If you don't think it is news worthy then don't read it.

I only wish I had been doing 8a and grit E6 at 13 instead of v.diffs in the rain!

Dave

In reply to davo:


Me too. This what I managed when I was 13:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19924

In reply to Ciro:


As if pre-placing gear is standard practice... Given his ability why not advise him to climb in the normal fashion, ground up placing gear as you go? He'd probably start a grade of two lower but he'd soon be up his true ability, placing gear isn't that hard... The headlines might come a little while later but so what? Anyway what's so important about headlines?

Maybe he should stop being "coached" and do his own thing? He doesn't seem to be getting very good advice at present.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: I believe in climbing we can do whatever the feck we want to as long as we're honest about it. Good on the lad I say. Keep doing whatever you want to do youth!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You're the one criticising, why not answer the question instead of posing your own?

I got someone to show me how to place gear and then went about climbing up the grades as fast as I could, learning how to place it, what to trust and what not to trust by a mixture of judgement and suck-it-and-see (falling on it). But the judgement came from a degree in engineering and years of assessing risks and learning how stuff works that a young lad doesn't have, and the suck-it-and-see approach is not something you can recommend with someone else's kid, which leaves one of two alternatives:

1) have him logging hours on HVS/E1s learning to place gear on stuff he could solo up and down all day

2) get him headpointing something hard enough to keep him engaged but far enough below his technical ability to be safe, seed a bit of interest in learning to place gear, and allow him to back-fit that ability.

Which one do you think is going to be more fun for a 13 year old who climbs 8a?

So again, if it's safe and it's fun, why not?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


I wish, when I was 13, someone had given me the kind of poor advice and coaching that has gotten him up 8a and E6!

Yeah that coaching sucks!

In reply to Bruce Hooker: There is a lot of wild speculation here about what may or may not be best for Jim pope and whether his coach may or may not have acted appropriately. As someone who knows all parties concerned, I just wanted to vouch that there could not be less pressure on Jim from his sponsors, Lyon Equipment. They wouldn't mind if he didn't even climb on rock, let alone lead on trad. Equally you could not get a more self-motivated youngster than Jim. Finally, Leah Crane doesn't push Jim in the slightest but remembers keenly how much she enjoyed being set challenges by a coach at a young age. The desire to pass these experiences on can surely only be commended. Thankfully, climbing is still a free sport and whether or not a youngster should be allowed to lead on trad must surely come down to the judgment of their guardian on the day. None of us are truly in a position to judge this situation because we weren't there. When you consider some of the appalling displays of incompetence we witness from adults on the crag it seems strange to point the finger at a young climbing partnership that is oozing with promise and class.

In reply to Neil Gresham:

That's why we started another thread to discuss the general issue of young kids doing activities some may see as dangerous and the pressures associated with the media etc etc.

We wanted to keep it impersonal and away from Jim as it was detracting from what he's achieved.

Unfortunately some seem to have ignored that.

In reply to davo:

My climbing ability doesn't make a difference ot HIS performance.



The 8a bit is newsworthy, but to bandy the grit routes as being E6 when they weren't a)onsighted and b)had preplaced gear isn't.


I read it because of the '13 yr old climbs E6' headline and was sorely disappointed to see that a significant portion of the E6 challenge had been removed. Had the lad gone and onsighted a couple of E3s putting the gear in then I'd have made no comment because I would have been impressed. Maybe I should be complaining about sensationalist headlines instead?

In reply to Toerag: Perhaps you should wait until you've onsighted some E3's and headpointed some E6's before you try and tell people on ukc what is more impressive.
He was honest about his ascents, and a 13 year old headpointing a couple of E6's is newsworthy, wether you like it or not.

In reply to deacondeacon: I think young Master Pope's ascents are very impressive given his age - he is clearly a very talented lad, with a great future ahead of him - and I hope he enjoys a long and rewarding career.

However, there is a world of difference between 'headpointing' and 'onsighting' (certainly one, and probably 2 E grades if you factor in pre-placed gear), and I think the headline of the OP is a bit 'Sun Newspaper', which bearing in mind his obvious talent, the young lad hardly needs.

In reply to Gus:
>> Wonder how he'd go on Moon Crack


A historical reference, of course, Gus - a certain UKC personality onsighted MC at the same age in the 1970's.

jcm

In reply to Goucho: Does preplaced gear make any difference when there is none where it matters?

In reply to UKC News:

I think the whole point of the start of this thread was to inform people that a 13 year old has managed to complete 2 grit e6's unfortunately due to some of the people that inhabit UKC it has become yet another slating session and general bitching. The kid is 13, I personally think this is a great achievement and well done him. If you want to moan go to the pub or speak to your dog.

In reply to UKC News: I think it's a shame to see all the negativity here, it sounds like he's in some safe hands and well looked after when it comes to climbing, and he pretty much walked up Life Assurance anyway. I didnt even climb at that age and was probably in more danger as I went mountain biking on my own without telling anybody where I was going or taking a phone.

In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Has anyone said anything other than this? Maybe you need to brush up your reading skills?

In reply to davo:


Maybe it's his talent not the coaches'? Why are you knocking him?

In reply to UKC News:

Can i draw everyones attention to this please:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=526658&v=1#x7087841

It's the other thread that spun off from this when some of us realised that we wouldn't like to be spoken about like Jim is. The 'issue' ( if there even is one ) is a general one and needs taking away from being just about 1 person.

That's just my opinion of course, if you feel the need to keep going no-one can stop you.

Also read Neil Gresham's post a bit above. We can all sleep soundly in our beds tonight. Jim enjoyed himself, he is well looked after and he didn't lie about his style of ascent.

In reply to Offwidth:

This isn't the case on Life Assurance - you're going to fall a long way and you might need a more alert-looking belayer than the one in the video to keep you off the ground, but there's certainly gear.

But even allowing for that, actually the answer to your question is yes, it does make a difference even if the hardest moves are unprotected.

jcm

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

You are a strange man Bruce. That is a strange interpretation/ complete misinterpretation of what I have written. Why don't you go and carry on your pedantry and twisting of words on another thread. This one is about congratulating a very talented young lad.

Dave

In reply to Toerag:


I mentioned your climbing "ability" because it seems strange that someone who has climbed for probably longer than the lad has been alive but climbs at a significantly worse standard would want to criticise what he has done.

As has been mentioned maybe you should go out do a load of training, get better and then try and onsight a couple of E3s or headpoint an E6 and then you might have some understanding of how difficult it might be to achieve at the age of 13.

And yes, in my opinion grit E6 headpointed by a 13 year old is newsworthy. I certainly found it interesting and I didn't really care 2 hoots that he headpointed them. If he was older and he headpointed them it would not be newsworthy and then I would agree it would be weird that it was news. But he is 13!

When I was 13 I was seconding vdiffs and finding it the living end! Certainly not cruising up 2 E6s! Oh if only....

Dave

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Initials JG by any chance?
Anyway, would JP necessarily walk up it? I'm told that you can generally add two grades to your onsight grade for grit routes(Can't seak from experience). I think Leo Houlding said in the Onsight film that onsighting E5 was more impressive than headpointing E7. Note: I'm not having a go at anyone here!

In reply to Offwidth: Well yes...it does, because on Life Assurance the gear in Charlie's Crack will stop you decking out if you pop the last moves - as long as your second is a quick sprinter.

And, arriving at those faith and friction slab moves on LA onsight, with no chalk marks, is a world away from arriving at them 'chalked' after you've top-roped it.

Again, no criticism of Master Pope's very impressive performance, just the reporting of it.

In reply to Goucho:

Yes, but the question was whether it makes a difference whether it's already in or if you put in.

Which it does, somehow.

I must say though I'd have thought they'd want a lower runner on LA to run the rope through if they're going to do any sprinting. Perhaps there was one - I didn't look terribly closely.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
>
I agree it does too.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Just for the record... must be some other JG - I roped it at 13 (and then many times afterwards; in the days before sport climbing it was a nice safe way to get some training in) and led it at 15.

In reply to John Gillott:

I wonder who it was then!

In reply to davo:


It isn't only that though, is it? It's also for anyone to react to a bit of information that has other aspects... one of the side effects of publicity on a public forum.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
climb in the normal fashion, ground up placing gear as you go?

and with a note from his mother.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I've got to say I'm pretty surprised Leo said that, I've onsighted a few E5's but I'd never even think about getting on an E7, headpointed or not! I'd say E5s are onsighted much more regularly than E7s headpointed, so surely the feat that had been repeated the least must be harder, so therefore more impressive?

To the person saying that he'd be more impressed with Jim if he onsighted an E3, let me say that an E6 headpoint is massively more mentally and physically challenging than onsighting an E3, gear pre placed or not. Regardless of the ethics of sending a 13 year old up a dangerous route, there is no doubt that Jim's is an incredible achievement which shouldn't be taken away from.

In reply to Joughton: Look at the limits of trad climbing. E7/8 onsights and E10/11 headpoints- should tell you everything you need to know.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

It's not me that wants to mother him, I've been saying for the "coaches" to let him do his own thing... You don't seem to read too well either.

In reply to UKC News:It seems quite obvious that single pitch climbs more so sport routes and boulder problems will in the near future (as with the sport of Gymastics) be dominated by early or pre teen girls and boys.Sorry guys.... See recient sends by Ashima Shiraishi and Tito Traversa