UKC

I climbed this route yesterday, and found the technical move on it really hard for the grade (it took a while to figure it out)!

All of the discussions on UKC, Rockfax etc seem to suggest the climb is easy for the grade (VS 4c). I'm wondering if something has changed on the route recently? I don't recall finding a 'jug above' the thin crack like it mentions in the description (the thin crack itself didn't seem a good idea as a gear placement as the flake forming it moves a little). Or is the chockstone itself the jug?

I ended up doing it by getting my right foot really high onto the chockstone, then laybacking using the left side of the crack to rock over onto the chockstone. Felt bloody hard for VS 4c though! Maybe I was just having a bad day...

In reply to Chris Sansum: Haven't been on it for a while but seem to remember that the wobbly block is the jug.

In reply to Chris Sansum:
yeah bunched up moves dont suit me and i found the crux tough for 4c too. but its a one move wonder with the rest being a fair bit easier so probably softish for vs.

In reply to Chris Sansum: The jug on the top of the wobbly block fell off years ago (late 90's-ish). Before then it was a fairly easy VS now it's much nearer the top end of the grade.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I've done it fairly recently, as have a number of mates - it's not changed much over the last few years. As others have said, the chockstone is the jug and the move (at least as I do it) is a high step and rock over from the left.

It's not an easy move, especially if you're not flexible, but "VS with a hard move" seems like the right grade to me.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

yeah always found that move hard, top end HS 4c?

In reply to Chris Sansum:
I think something has changed around the chockstone.
I have done the route a few times and found it straight forward then tried it for first time in about 7 years a couple of weeks ago and found the move stupidly hard for 4c. I cam remember pulling up from right previously but ended up having to do a bit of a rockover/ dyno combo. From the left this time. My second and third couldn't follow and they are usually ok up to 5a

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I did it a week or so ago, and have a vague memory of doing it 15 years or so ago. My memory is that it was a stiff pull but "OK" for VS, thuggy 4c. This time it felt desperate, perhaps 5b or so.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Good to hear it is not just me finding it hard then! Sounds like a few people have found the same thing. Maybe something has changed on it. I will not give up climbing just yet then...

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Yeah I found this pretty thuggy and awkward. This was one of the last routes we did at the end of a week on grit, climbing up to E2, so we were going pretty well and this nearly had us. No idea about grade but a VS leader could find themselves a bit miffed.

In reply to Dave 88:

I did this route last week. Nothing has changed from when I first did it in 1999.

In reply to OwenM:

That might explain it. I did this back in 1997 and breezed it. Returned a few years ago and really struggled... on second!

In reply to Simon_Sheff:
I haven't done it myself, but I know someone who did it as her first HS a couple of months ago and thought it was fine. Maybe you lot are just getting soft?

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Where's Offwidth when you need him?!

In reply to Chris Sansum:
Did it a few weeks back and yes found the one move hard for the grade but found most of the day quite hard so just assumed it was me!

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Yes, that is very likely! Interested to see whether on future ascents people still comment that it is easy for the grade though.

In reply to Chris Sansum: Completed the crux a few years ago now, after some provarication, fairly easily, after a "F^&king get on with it, its easily within your ability" from a certain female friend.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I did it a long time ago, and remember it being very easy apart from the clear crux around the chockstone, which was very tricky.

In reply to Chris Sansum: I failed on it a few years back. Bunched up moves are a particular foe of mine, with my giraffe legs and corpse like flexibility. Someone there that day said to me he thought it was nearer 5b now.

In reply to Toreador:
his site says probable HS 4c.

http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/froggatt.html

In reply to CurlyStevo:

But also says:
"easier again now someone has replaced the chockstone at the crux (which was missing for a while). If it comes out again, the climb in that state deserves VS 5a*."

In reply to deepsoup:
well the chockstone is still there

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Fairy snuff then. Seemed like an obvious possible cause for a change in difficulty.

I've not done it for years, I'll have a go next time I'm at Froggatt and see if it feels any different to the way I remember it.
(As a one-move-wonder, a soft VS with one tricky 4c move on it.)

Has anyone done both Trapeze Direct and The Grazer (at Burbage North) recently? If TD seemed harder, something probably has changed. :O)

In reply to deepsoup:
As mentioned in the posts there used to be a jug on top that made the climb easier but that broke off a long time ago I've done it once in 2004 and remember it being hard then!

I've backed of this and done it as a warm up within weeks. Looking at it, it's pretty obvious, it looks 4c. Getting into it it feels like somebody swapped routes on you... it's not really much more than a 'pfft' step move. I also avoided using the wobbly stone, same approach as you Chris in fact and I'm just shy of 6', it was a high step.

I put my first back off down to the day and my hips, went back to classic hvs's.

Similar thoughts have been had on many other 'traditional' moves on that crag or others and thats a good thing!

In reply to Chris Sansum:

There once was a wobbly block good hold, then it fell out, then someone put it back, then it was missing again. The route skips between HS 4c and a hard VS 5a as the chock hold comes and goes.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's not the chock thats critical it's the good hold it provides (or not).

In reply to Offwidth:
Right so can you actually shed any light on this matter. When did you write your comments that are on your website regarding trapeze direct? I'm thinking since my ascent in 2004 and after the hold disappeared from the chock in the late 90's and that as far as you know it's still in a similar state now to what it was when I did it?

Is your current view that it's HS 4c?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've not climbed it since the reports of it being harder again. The update to our website would have been around 2009 for the 'final' checks we made ourselves for the Froggatt guide, and a good hold had 'rematerialised' at that time (presumably someone had put a chock back in or moved an existing chock so a hold was accessible). The comment on Offwidth was to warn people it does sometimes feel hard/easy compared to before and why.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I led it in 2008 after backing off it the previous year. I seconded it last year. The day I led it I led Tody's and 3PS onsight and the move in Trapeze direct felt as hard if not harder than the crux moves on either of those so could be 5a. Didn't feel any easier when I seconded it last year. Can't be more than HS though, the rest of the climb is about V.Diff and there's so much gear at the crux you can build a bomb shelter.
HS 5a wouldn't be out of place, in the same way as it wouldn't for The Marmoset at Stanage Crow Chin.

In reply to teflonpete:

The Marmoset has a crux barely off the ground and is one of the most variably graded routes in history...not a good comparison. Single safe hard 5a sequence on a route is normally getting VS.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yep, VS 5a seems right to me. Done!

In reply to Offwidth:

VS 5b -- it only "feels" 5a because you're doing it off a ledge with good and nearby gear. The move is hard though.

In reply to Offwidth:
"Single safe hard 5a sequence on a route is normally getting VS"
We'll have to downgrade Three Pebble Slab to VS then

In reply to Coel Hellier:
I must say for me I've done easier 5b moves but I assumed the problem was me not getting along with the bunched up move rather than vice versa.

In reply to Offwidth:
Based on the posts on this thread it's far from clear that the sequence has changed much since I did it in 2004 or you did it in 2009 and its pretty clear the majority of people think it was harder than 4c when they did it.

In reply to Offwidth:

I remember first doing it when it was VS 4b in the old Derwent guide, then immediately after the chockstone came out the first time, where it was more like 5a.

It's a fun move with the chock, and a horrid grovel without, but even so, perhaps folk should stop sticking the chock back in now - there's always the sidle off right if you don't fancy the move much.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I did it a few times when it was easy (for VS). A hold I remembered was missing a few years later and I nearly fell off (I wouldn't have argued too much if some said 5b). Later on the hold seemed to have re-materialised and the route was easy again.

Clear enough for you that the route changed??

PS I've climbed it at least 6 times (and maybe a few other times I forgot from 20+ years back) and watched folk on it on about 50 occasions over 25 years.

In reply to Chris Sansum: A couple of goes on this route, I'd agree high HS/ low VS. Its either a hard move around 5a, or a brave dynamic move at 4c. Personally I've done a few 5a's that felt easier. Yet the rest of the route is really easy. As people say one move wonder.

Grade wise HS 5a I'd agree with the move is really safe and not exposed. Maybe even just HS "Hard 4c", If I had better style. I kinda thugged over it last time.

In reply to Offwidth: i think we already established before you joined the thread the route has changed over the years ( did you read all my posts as I mentioned this already ). its far from clear its changed since 2004 when i climbed it and / or 2009 when you last graded it.

In reply to MHutch: does anyone know the history of the chock was it likely placed during one of the early ascents ?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

This is totally mental, why are people putting chockstone holds into a climb? Should we not do the same then for Goliath's Groove etc?

In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies:
I like crack climbing and would personally like to try it without the chock. I'd vote for removing the chock if its a non natural feature or has a tendency to fall out and may therefore injure people.

In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies:

Agreed, is it not technically aid climbing to pull on a placed chock stone?!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

If I remember correctly, I did it without the chock stone and it still wasn't a great route! It's just awkward and not even in an interesting way.

In reply to Dave 88:
I could probably improve a few climbs by removing holds here and chipping some new ones in there

In reply to Chris Sansum:

Someone should stick the giant flake back on to Formula One in Lundy at the same time.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I've checked back on various old versions of our site now and as far back as 2002 the route was easier as the chock had been replaced (and I'm guessing not that long before that). It either stayed that way then until 2009 or any period it got harder again was too short for me to have noticed (easier in 2004, 2006, 2009). The difference according to our notes was really marked: hard 5a vs 4c. Such routes can form part of someone's regular solo circuit and as such the chock may have gone and been quickly returned several times without much fanfare.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm heading to Curbar at the weekend with a bucket full of chock stones. Finally gonna get Elder Crack ticked.

In reply to Chris Sansum:

I've got a terrible feeling that this awfully second-rate little climb, that I've done dozens of times, usually as a warm-up to a day at Froggatt will now become a Really Boring Subject like TPS, but even worse because it's just such a nonentity.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Shame you're going to Stanage at the weekend, or you could have checked on the current status of the chock stone in question.

In reply to Dave 88:

I think you mean NOT going ???

Anyhow, I really can't get too excited about this, particularly when I start to think about the huge number of really good climbs at Froggatt.

In reply to Offwidth:
I did it in 2004, 06, 07, 08. The first time was an early vs and I think I found it steady; must have been easy. I dont really remember the susequent ascents well but I think I would if it had changed.

In reply to Dave 88:
Blimey. Bet you don't get many Elder Crack chock stones in a bucket. ;O)

In reply to deepsoup: It's VS 5a because the chockstone move is difficult. It stumped my mate who's a E1 leader.

In reply to deepsoup:

I'm gonna push a sheep in too!

In reply to Dave 88:
but the chockstone is still there and one poster on here says it hasnt changed in difficulty since he did it 1999. if you read the whole thread i still think its far from clear it is any harder now than in 04 and or 09.

In reply to Chris Sansum:
I've not done it in years, but having read this thread, that seems to be a good qualification to comment on it. Therefore I can definitively say that it's harder that it used to be, but not as hard as when I led it.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's just a bit of harmless online banter whilst not being able to go climbing - no harm in that!

it's often the small things that are the most interesting.

In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies:
I think if we upgraded it to E1 5b we may just be able to get the same attention to TD as TPS

In reply to Chris Sansum: We are missing the most important point, and that is that the route is pretty shit