/ OK so remove the confusion - lean body

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TheDrunkenBakers - on 07 Nov 2012
OK, so I have just been to the gym and had a session with a personal trainer. Here: my vital stats.

Age 37 (in a month)
Standard body type
175cm height - 5'9" in old money
79.9kg - minus shorts and t-shirt
BMI 26.1
BMR 1794
Impedence 493ohms
22% body fat
FFM 62.3kg - dont know what that is
TBW 45.6kgs

I am looking to get leaner and so i need ot get my head around the best way to do this. I have been running for a few months now and have lost about a stone since April. I run every other day if i can up to 10k. Weights 2 time per week max and wall once per week.

The trainer said that if I carry on with my regime I will lose muscle and increase body fat. She said I should cut out all breads, pasta, rice and potatoes altogether - not even wholemeal and eat, if possible only green veggies and berries - all other fruit is bad. She even said no bananas which is my staple for training of any type. I have been advised to eat 200gms of protein per day.

She recommended only weights and interval training and 6 times a day eating. I have decent muscle mass and dont want much more, just to save the stuff I have.

This all seems so hard and impractical. i dont want to give up the running as I am told this is the best way to lose fat and I like the fitness which helps for walkig up hills (in conunction with diet), i dont want to be a meat head lookingin the mirror every two minutes. There has been a thread on fasting on here too.

So, for the average man of advancing year with a busy life, what the hell are we supposed to do as there are so many conflicting methods. i just want to lose some fat without losing my mind in the process.
lost1977 - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

FFM fat free mass i would have thought
myth - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: sounds extreme. But you're paying her for advice. Either she has got the wrong end of the stick or man up and go berry picking;)
lost1977 - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to lost1977:

i would ask her if she thinks giving up smoking crack would be a good idea, when she looks at you shocked and says yes suggest that she does
sweenyt - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Ignore the fact that this is from bodybuilding.com, ignore the pics and videos of over muscled blokes and dont bother with the supplements, but other than that this should see you right:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/guides/male-20to39-fat-loss/intro

I've been doing this for about a month and its making a difference.

Otherwise, accept what the lady says, she probably knows more than us on here!

HTH
999thAndy on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Can I ask why you want to get leaner? is it to get better at climbing or for the aesthetics?
TheDrunkenBakers - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> Can I ask why you want to get leaner? is it to get better at climbing or for the aesthetics?

A bit of both really. I'm not vain but Im tired of being portly.

999thAndy on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

TBH I don't know what all the alphabetti spaghetti means in front of the numbers, but if you're doing 10K 3x week, weights 2x week and wall 1x I cant see how you'd 'lose muscle and gain fat' Anyways I'd do what you have most motivation for - hence my question. In your boat I'd up the climbing to 3 or 4 times a week and cut out the weights altogether. However that's because I hate gyms.

999thAndy on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to 999thAndy: Oh I should add my brother when he was a lad lost loads of bodyfat whilst trying to improve his physique for bodybulding. He ended up with ulcers, so I'm not convinced 'getting ripped' is all that healthy in the long run.
Shani - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Exercise -
Keep it simple - go for a big three (Deadlifts, Squats and chinning/bench press) in the gym.
Opt for a Wendler 531 template, RPT routine or a 5x5 routine. You could cycle across these routines. Record your numbers. Run 'coz you like it - not because you want to lose weight.

Food
First of all - all diets work, it is just that some are more sustainable than others.
You've been advised above to do what looks like a Ketogenic Diet. I'd raise the carbohydrate on hard training days (keeping fat lower). On rest days, keep with the lower CHO and raise the fat. Keep protein high throughout. You might want to try intermittent fasting (google 'Leangains'). IF is not necessarily about cutting calories, as much as nutrient timing. Over the course of a week your intake should 'average out'.
Eat Real Food! No shakes, gels or powders. Fill half your plate with animal and the other half with veg/potatoes.
No booze to start with.

Works for me! I find this pretty easy to maintain and still have the odd binge.
Age 40
BF <9%
sarahjk - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Hmm, that is a lot to give up !

I am female, 43yo, 5'8 and recently went from 10st4ish to 9st and change.

No change in activity level; run 3-6 times a week, 3-10 miles, mtbike maybe once a week, climb twice a week and fairly active job [Teaching SpEd]

I feel healthier and def can see a change in body shape [like none of my trousers fit now !]

The 'secret' ? I changed to a mostly raw diet on the encouragement of a couple of friends who also run/mtbike/climb and adventure race.

I read up on it, plenty of sources of calcium, protein and beloved carbs in my new routine. Basically raw till dinner; half a melon for b'fast [after run] smoothie made of 3-5 bananas, 2 apples, 2 oranges, few grapes/pineapple/mango/berries/whatever I have that needs using up for my morning break, makes to a nalgene bottle full. Lunch is a large bowl of salad with all sorts of stuff in it. Takes time to make in morning, but worth it. Dinner is 'regular food' as I have 2 kids to feed too; wholegrain pasta/rice, pizza [home made], roast veggies, omlette etc. We are veggie and usually eat as close to unprocessed anyways. No dairy anymore and dont really miss it. I do lapse, esp at weekends and can tell, but after a couple of months really do feel better.

Best parts, wine and dark chocolate are allowed too.

Alternatively I would recommend getting as close to unprocessed, good quality, whole food, mixing it up, lots of different colours on your plate and not taking it too seriously !
lmarenzi - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Substantially in the same boat as you, just worse, both older and fatter. I too have lost a stone, but need to lose another soon.

Mostly a question of diet rather than exercise, I would think.

Do yourself a favour and read Racing Weight, its all there. Then its just a question of how much of the theory you can/want to adopt into your life going forward.

Good luck.
lmarenzi - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to sarahkeast:

Words of wisdom.

I never met a fat raw foodist.
John Foster - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I would say that if the purpose of your getting leaner is to perform better as an athlete/runner/climber, then you will need to eat carbohydrates to fuel your performance.

However, this needs to be of the right type and quantity.

Eat reasonably, train twice a day (or even just once). Try and ensure calories out exceed calories in.

My 2 pence worth.
jolivague - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Try and fit a couple of high intensity interval sessions in a week if you can - go as hard as physically possible on a bike/treadmill for 1 minute (easier with a partner to shout you through the last 20 seconds or so!) then 3 minutes recovery at a gentle pace. Repeat 3 times and you'll feel pretty much broken but after a few weeks the benefits will start to show if you keep up your normal running pattern as well.

Bit baffled that she said to totally stop eating pasta, you need carbs to fuel your body just don't go overboard. Wholemeal breads and pastas are far better than white bread and pasta. Lots of chilli and garlic will keep your metabolism and blood healthy.

Best advice is to change your eating patterns and eat 5 small meals instead of 3 larger ones, it will give you a much steadier release of energy through the day and cut out the post-meal drowsiness a lot of people get.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I know much what she said made sense but as I am looking to keep fit through the exercise, how the heck can removing carbs be good. I know that replacing a slice of wholemeal bread at lunch with a handful of raw green veggies but surely the bread will be much better fuel for a hard session therefore helping me to burn more calories.

TheDrunkenBakers - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: And now i find out that my wife has just opened the Xmas Roses - I am now buggered.
Shani - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers) I know that replacing a slice of wholemeal bread at lunch with a handful of raw green veggies but surely the bread will be much better fuel for a hard session therefore helping me to burn more calories.

But your objective is not to burn 'calories from bread' it is to 'burn body fat' isn't it?

I don't eat grains, refined sugars, nor vegetable oils. So no bread or pasta. My choice of CHO is predominantly potatoes, sweet potato and starchy tubers. Bread and cereals are so heavily refined that they are nutrient poor and often fortified. Fortification of foods is questionable in many cases (folic acid an obvious exception) - but you should get your vitamins from REAL FOOD - which offers superior bioavailability over fortified foods and contains lots of other beneficial compounds.
SARS on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to John Foster:

Agreed. You need carbs especially if you're doing lots of aerobic.

Trying to get lean myself. Current pattern of exercise is climbing 2-3G per week and gym sessions 2x per week. At the gym session I'm doing a tough running routine interspersed with weights.

It's definitely shifted a few pounds. Recently I've intensified the running by shoving the treadmill on a very steep incline. In the past I've also found this to be good training for winter hill fitness.
stroppygob - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I'd say that the advice she has given you is the most ludicrous I have heard in a long time, and I'd check that she isn't one of these folk who has bought into a particular diet fad, and is now all evangelical about it.

Where would your protien to sustain muscle come from in that diet?
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Ben Sharp - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I would also recommend reading racing weight, as soon as possible!

To get lean you could starve yourself for the next couple of months and you'll lose fat quickly. To get fitter/stronger you need to fuel your body properly and fat loss will be slower. Getting lean and fitter at the same time will fall somewhere in between those two extremes. Decide where your goals fall on that scale. If I was you I wouldn't worry about fat loss too much, if you keep exercising and don't eat junk you'll get lean anyway, but of course it will take longer.

There are plenty suggestions on this thread, some highly individualistic, take them with a pinch of salt and decide what you think will work for you in the long term. Avoid advice from anyone who's "been doing this great diet/workout/routine for the last couple of months". You want something you can stick to for years. My two penneth worth would be find something you can fit into your lifestyle. If you follow your trainers advice you will undoubtedly succeed but if you find yourself not able to commit to it don't give up, there are easier ways too and her approach might not suit you.

Like a lot of things in life you become what you do, if you keep training and eat sensibly you will end up leaner and fitter. It's sticking to it that's the problem and the only way you can do that is finding out what works for you. If you can handle fancy diets then fine, if you cant don't worry about it, just eat sensibly and keep exercising. If you want to know what eating sensibly is then the first thing you should devour is racing weight!

Ben
Nutkey on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Before you get too hung up on those figures, I've done one of those impedance tests, and it measured me at 1.5% body fat.

The guy giving the test was adamant this was accurate. I didn't bother arguing the case - if my body fat was that low, I'd almost certainly be dead.
I like climbing - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
What did the dietician say ?
Dave 88 - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I really hope TBW doesn't stand for Target Body Weight. This woman sounds like an absolute maniac.
birdie num num - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
There comes a time in folks lives where they have to accept that they're a fat barsteward.
The New NickB - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to lmarenzi:
> (In reply to sarahkeast)
>
> Words of wisdom.
>
> I never met a fat raw foodist.

Or a healthy one.
The New NickB - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Ignore the trainer, cut alcohol and sugar, maintain the running, even better run more.
FiendishMcButton on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Impedance 493 ohms. Seriously WTF has that got to do with anything?
TheDrunkenBakers - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers) I'd say that the advice she has given you is the most ludicrous I have heard in a long time, and I'd check that she isn't one of these folk who has bought into a particular diet fad, and is now all evangelical about it.
>
> Where would your protien to sustain muscle come from in that diet?

She recommended 200grams per day. 300 at the start but then changed her mind when I looked at her in a startled manner. Id have have to eat a whole chicken every day for that.

i just want to lose the paunch and perhaps seee my ribs for the first time in years, stay fit and maintain the muscle I have, not compete in Mr Universe.

vark - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> OK, so I have just been to the gym and had a session with a personal trainer. Here: my vital stats.
>
> Age 37 (in a month)
> Standard body type
> 175cm height - 5'9" in old money
> 79.9kg - minus shorts and t-shirt
> BMI 26.1
> BMR 1794
> Impedence 493ohms
> 22% body fat
> FFM 62.3kg - dont know what that is
> TBW 45.6kgs
>
> I am looking to get leaner and so i need ot get my head around the best way to do this. I have been running for a few months now and have lost about a stone since April. I run every other day if i can up to 10k. Weights 2 time per week max and wall once per week.

> She recommended only weights and interval training and 6 times a day eating. I have decent muscle mass and dont want much more, just to save the stuff I have.
>

Your current regime is working so carry on. Ignore what the personal trainer said. The level of knowledge they have is usually much lower than they would have you beleive.
You are not going to loose muscle unless your calorie intake is significantly deficient. If you do lots of running and no resistance training you may find that over time you shift the balance of fast twitch and slow twitch muscle.

When you go next time and tell them you are struggling to hit the 200g protein per day they will then suggest they sell you some powdered sh1te at great expense.

hokkyokusei - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I know it sounds obvious, but reduce the amount of calories you are consuming. You are probably easting more than you think.

For various reasons (ok, to prove someone wrong) I've just spent a month eating a drinking for 1/day. I planned out what I was going to eat and how many calories I could afford - ~2450kcal/day. I thought that I probably wouldn't lose much weight, since I reckoned I probably ate about 2500kcal/day anyway, especially since I've been injured and not doing much exercise.

I was wrong. Over the last 30 days I've lost about 3-4kg (depending upon the period over which I average). I've tracked my weight with a spreadsheet and calculated that my average calorific deficit over the period has been about 600 kcal! So whereas I thought I was previously eating 2500kcal I was probably eating way over 3000.

I don't know for sure that I have lost fat rather than muscle, but I just started running again and I'm doing as well as I ever was, my waist has shrunk, and everyone is saying I look thinner.

My conclusion is that it's very easy to eat more than you think you're eating, and much harder to train it off!






Ben Abbott - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Mate! Take it from me, what your doing is fine, and as long as you keep your eye on your calorie intake ( spread sheet is good) and keep the calories to around 1850 to 2300 ish on your running days you should see decent results.

If you want my advice and if you are paying for weight lose advice, then spend your hard earned cash on other things. I always suggest giving yourself a short term goal, and if you loose the weight then treat yourself to something you need for your climbing etc.

Just remember a balanced diet is important.

Hope this helps, and when your trainer has come down from her opium enduced state, then let her read these threads.
Martin W on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: You could ask your trainer to show you the evidence that she is basing her advice on. If you're paying her for the advice she should be more than happy to justify it. If she can't or won't, or if you don't think the evidence is not adequate, then you have even more reason to ignore the advice.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Nah, noy paying for it.

Just stood on the contraption at the gym and she saw me and asked about my goals and we got talking.
nw - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to lmarenzi)
> [...]
>
> Or a healthy one.
Beat me to it. One girl I knew, her teeth started to fall out.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> Nah, noy paying for it.
>
> Just stood on the contraption at the gym and she saw me and asked about my goals and we got talking.

You sure she wasn't the cleaner?


Chris
Dave B on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Just do what you enjoy and don't overcomepensate eating. If your body is working hard and getting the nutrients it needs, then its unlikely to lose much muscle mass or gain much fat.

I have never followed a diet (paleo/raw/calories controlled/atkins or whatever) and at several years older than you am at 7.5% bodyfat measured by calipers with a 7 site protocol. For my size I'm one of the strongest people in my local gym and can run a 3 1/4 hour marathon. I eat cake, potatoes, bread, veg, fruit, fish, meat, cheese, lard, ice cream, drink coffee and tea and alcohol. Perhaps I am very lucky, but on the whole I see very little evidence that highly focussed diet or training is a requirement for health, fitness, fat loss or muscle gain.

Some people seem to thrive on the regime model, but it all seems a bit anally retentive to me.
Wulfrunian - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Eat less. Do more. Ignore fads. Seemples.
joljols - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I miss the mention of drinking loads of water on a day (up to 4liters). This has been suggested at numerous other (climbing) sources on the web and works if you are often hungry throughout the day or craving for sweets/crisps (like me). Just keep a water bottle with you and you'll notice the difference soon enough.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave B:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> I eat cake, potatoes, bread, veg, fruit, fish, meat, cheese, lard, ice cream, drink coffee and tea and alcohol.

Sounds like the perfect breakfast
ads.ukclimbing.com
macstinator on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: She is advcotaing something along the lines of a paleo/ketonic diet, with Cross-fit.

Utter bullshit, the lot of it.

Cross-fitters believe both carbs and cardio are the enemy. These people do not do any endurance exercise whatsoever, and pride themselves on how many kipping pull ups they can do (google it - ridiculous exercise).

Cut out the CRAP (caffeine, refined sugars, alcohol, processed foods)- we all know what good, healthy food is, and how much of it to consume. Calories count.

Do whatever cardio and weights combo you so desire - I have always thought the military have it bang on for useful, functional fitness training. Runs/swims/circuits/bodyweight exercises.
Alex@home - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to macstinator:

>> Cut out the CRAP...

caffeine? really? the rest i could do but don't take that away.

seriously though, why caffeine?
Ciro - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I'm just going to chip in and agree with what everyone else here is saying... what you're doing is working because it's the right way to go about it.

Stick with a healthy balanced diet of wholefoods and keep up the training and the weight will continue to drop off.

If it levels off at a point when you're still not happy with where you 've got to, that's the time to start thinking if there's other small changes you need to make.

Drastic changes will tend to work in the short term but are unlikely to be sustainable. Slow, steady lifestyle changes are the way to be successful long term

Sounds like you've made a very good start, keep it up!
TheDrunkenBakers - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to macstinator:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers) She is advcotaing something along the lines of a paleo/ketonic diet, with Cross-fit.
>
> Utter bullshit, the lot of it.
>
> Cross-fitters believe both carbs and cardio are the enemy. These people do not do any endurance exercise whatsoever, and pride themselves on how many kipping pull ups they can do (google it - ridiculous exercise).
>

You mean like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAZaHzd6qAY

Doesnt look controlled to me.
goldmember - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: me too!!!
Flinticus - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to vark:
Second that. As the saying goes, 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

Not personal trainers, but my wife (dr in psychology etc) sees so many clients who've been to poorly trained counsellors, who might have the best of intentions, giving sometimes dangerous advice and usually operating way below competency levels. I think the same goes on in many poorly regulated 'advice' businesses.

Anyway sounds like bollocks to me. I've 42, 5'8'', v low body fat, take regular exercise but not obsessive (I have no regime and don't use the gym), weight 10st, don't eat emat but loves coffee, ales, pastries, fresh bread (hmmm!) and so on (i.e. I don't diet & never have).
macstinator on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Alex@home: I was massively overdosing on caffeine. It had to go. Feel amazing for it.
pepperpot - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I'm also a great believer that the military have it pretty much sorted when it comes to fitness and diet. There's loads of free resources on the net too. None of what I've read talks about any weird approach to food its all about just controlling what you eat, and cutting out processed or sugary stuff and alcohol. Eat enough to fuel what you're doing or marginally less if you want to shift a few pounds. Just keep it balanced and healthy and we all know what that means.

As far as exercise goes, work hard and enjoy it. Lots of aerobic stuff, intervals, body weight exercises, swimming, running, and biking. The programs I've done seem to mix it up a lot so you don't get too good any one thing and it keeps things interesting.

I did one a few years ago from a book aimed at people wanting to join the Paras. It was brilliant fun. Each week was different but it basically had body weight circuits, interval runs, 5 mile runs, and long runs with a pack at about 12-13min/mile. As it went on the duration and intensity ramped up. In terms of results, my weight stayed the same but the ration of fat to muscle was definitely changing for the better. I probably didn't have a six pack but I felt great!
Dave B on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Trouble is, I've run out of food groups to plunder by the time it gets to second breakfast at about 9am...
Alex@home - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to macstinator:

phew. thought there was some research into its effect on metabolism or something. i'll keep going at my reasonably moderate levels then - at least until the baby starts sleeping through :-)
Richard88 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: follow a strict high protien and very low carb diet. Have one cheat day week so you dont crave the stuff youre not eating (your body will cope with this without putting on extra fat). Training wise look to do high intesity stuff such as 1 - 2 mile sprints at intervals rather than distance. You'll burn more calories and pack on a bit of leg muscle and tone your abs too!
Jonathan Emett - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> BMI 26.1
Body Mass Index - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_mass_index

> BMR 1794
Basal Metabolic Rate - estimate of the calories your body needs if you were to lie still for a day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate

> Impedence 493ohms
The machine works by measuring your body's electrical resistance. This is the only reliable number it produces.

> 22% body fat
estimate, computed by using your body's impedance reading in a formula based on the manufacturers tests on other people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioelectrical_impedance_analysis

> FFM 62.3kg - dont know what that is
Fat Free Mass. The weight of the bits of your body that aren't fat; based on the body fat value it calculates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_free_mass

> TBW 45.6kgs
Total Body Water - weight of the water in your body. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_body_water
rockchomper on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
...getcha a really good book on nutrition (not just for xmas, for life :) )
your new wisdom will be more powerful/helpful than this tosh she's feeding ('scuse the pun) you, she clearly knows nothing about what a healthy working body needs and you can't live forever on that sort of 'diet', bananas (amongst other foods) provide potassium, citrus fruits provide
vit c, pineapple has essential enzymes, brightly coloured fruit/veg (peppers,carrots,mangos etc) provide vit a, cereals, potatoes,nuts,beans,pulses provide protein, wholemeal (bread/branlike cereals) provide excellent sources of iron/zinc...sorry to sound like a saddo closet nutritionist but why do so many people waste so much of their hard earned cash on foodstuff that does absolutely bugger all for your body that longterm can lead to all sorts of deficiences and lead to ailments that need drugs to correct it and even long term illness and irreversible conditions....bang! kick! crash!...there, just put ma wee soap box away now...hope this helps:)
rockchomper on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Alex@home:
...sorry, bit late with the reply, caffeine depletes the absorption of a lot of the vit b family into your body,
needed for your nervous system,
helping with stress and emotion,
brain function,
healthy skin,hair and nails
and also energy levels.
reasons for intake of caffeine to give us a boost/quick pick me up is that it not only depletes the vit b that is supposed to give the natural energy that your body needs but it artificially stimulates your nervous system which raises adrenaline and is linked to high blood pressure, high cholesterol,depression,pms and insomnia.
all can directly affect your immune system.
if you're not getting enough b's in the first place it could be one of the reasons you feel tired/irratable a lot of the time. just buy decaff or even better, fruit/herbal tea.
hope this helps.
Punter S Thompson - on 09 Nov 2012
Paul Troon - on 09 Nov 2012
I train before breakfast body weight exercises run, i have read a lot about this on the web there is lot of info out there this one found to day

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/phys-ed-the-benefits-of-exercising-before-breakfast/
krikoman - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Jonathan Emett:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)

>
> [...]
> The machine works by measuring your body's electrical resistance. This is the only reliable number it produces.
>

Only reliable at the time, there are so many variables that will alter this value, that it's practically useless. Temperature, humidity, time of day can all change the resistance of the body. Try measuring before and after exercise and see what difference there are between those readings.

Do what you enjoy and cut down on the intake.
Kemics - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Been listening to really interesting podcast today about nutrition for ultra endurance.

Basically he was saying that at relatively low levels of workrate you burn fat stores (carbs) when the workrate becomes more extreme you begin to burn your glycogen stores instead. So it's really not a case of more pain - more gain. Actually you want quite a modest workout for the best gains. But as long as you're in your fat burning mode (not dialing it up to running on glycogen) you basically can go all day as there's always fat to burn, wheras your glycogen stores is a finite amount)

So instead of picking a pace, he suggests picking a heart rate then run at whatever pace keeps you below it.

Seems to know his stuff, went from couch potato to ultra endurance athlete (did an event which is 10mile open water swim, 90 miles on a bike and 3 marathon's back to back....mind boggling)
stroppygob - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Kemics:
> Seems to know his stuff, went from couch potato to ultra endurance athlete (did an event which is 10mile open water swim, 90 miles on a bike and 3 marathon's back to back....mind boggling)

My mate "Mad Bob" Brown, was world decatriathlon champion.

DISTANCES: 38 km swimming, 1800 km cycling and 422 km running
LIMIT TIME: 14 days

mattrm - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Kemics:

Have you got a link to the podcast?
Ian Black - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Age 52 BMI 27, body fat 8%. can't be bothered reading all the posts, but basically eat good proteins, fish, lean steak, chicken, turkey etc. Carbs should come mainly from non starchy types like cauliflower, broccoli, spinach, kale, fruit, berries etc. Fats should come from olive oil, almonds, and a few nuts. Keep dairy to a minimum. This combined with compound movements and your CV should get you in good nick. I always throw at least one sprint session in a week in either the bike, concept 2, or running. Persevere and you will see the results.
nw - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Yada yada yada...take all of these posts with a pinch of salt. For each one that says 'there's alot of evidence to support...', or 'I read on this website...' there is contrary evidence somewhere else. Whatever it is-high carb, low carb, fasted excercise, HIT, LSD, whatever. Just start. You know what healthy food is really, eat more of that and do plenty of challenging but enjoyable excercise. Sift through the different approaches over time, try things on, develop your own sense of what is feasible. Most people who achieve/maintain physical fitness for any length of time will have tried a bunch of stuff and made a bunch of mistakes. Just get out and do it, and accept that it is unlikely that you will immediately find the 'perfect' plan that is going to get you to all your goals.
deanstonmassif on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Sounds like what you are already doing on the exercise front is working well, and that your trainer is talking mince. Only thing to add would be to cycle to work - my colleague lost over 4 stone in his first year of cycling to work combined with a calory-counting website.

On the diet front, you need to settle on something you can maintain in the long term, rather than a pain-in-the-arse fad. I always reckon a little of everything does you well, keep up a good fruit and veg intake, and ease back on the portion sizes (but not of the veg). Sometimes a watery drink satisfies the sensation of hunger. And you gotta enjoy what you're eating!
lost1977 - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> Exercise -
> Keep it simple - go for a big three (Deadlifts, Squats and chinning/bench press) in the gym.
> Opt for a Wendler 531 template, RPT routine or a 5x5 routine. You could cycle across these routines. Record your numbers. Run 'coz you like it - not because you want to lose weight.
>

agree but let make it big 4 OHP has its place and especially if squats are back and not front
Horatio on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: You probably won't want to hear this but...

I always hovered around 13st and couldn't get below that. Since going veggie I dropped to 11 in about a year, now find it really easy to stay between 11-12st. I could easily drop to 10.5 if I wanted to race my bike or climb an E4 or whatever. I'm not suggesting going veggy but I'd say it's definitely worth considering the amount, quality and frequency of eating meat. I think the the industry's so big that the health damages of eating meat (in particular processed) twice a day is hidden from the public, or at least not prevalent in in the public conscience, much like smoking at the height of it's profitability.
Shani - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to lost1977:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> agree but let make it big 4 OHP has its place and especially if squats are back and not front

Good point. (The reason I don't OHP in my training is that I do a lot of handstands.)
Shani - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Horatio:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers) You probably won't want to hear this but...
>
> I always hovered around 13st and couldn't get below that. Since going veggie I dropped to 11 in about a year, now find it really easy to stay between 11-12st. I could easily drop to 10.5 if I wanted to race my bike or climb an E4 or whatever. I'm not suggesting going veggy but I'd say it's definitely worth considering the amount, quality and frequency of eating meat. I think the the industry's so big that the health damages of eating meat (in particular processed) twice a day is hidden from the public, or at least not prevalent in in the public conscience, much like smoking at the height of it's profitability.

The weight loss is not good if it is muscle! Since turning from veggie to meat eater I've put several kilos on, but have dropped a few waist sizes.

We agree about processed meat - the same goes for processed food period. Pringles are vegetarian (depending on flavour) as are Snickers (although Mars keep changing the recipe). We also agree about the quality of meat.

The 'damage' from eating meat is an interesting standpoint. Most pre industrial societies would laugh at anyone eschewing meat. Anecdotal, but very few centenarians and athletes are vegetarian.
nw - on 10 Nov 2012
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to lost1977)
> [...]
>
> Good point. (The reason I don't OHP in my training is that I do a lot of handstands.)
Interested in this...is there much crossover between front squats and OHP? Where's the upper body pushing component? I've not tried them.

Kemics - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to mattrm:

http://blog.joerogan.net/archives/5409

Skip to the middle I think when he starts talking about nutrition for endurance training. First bit is about vegan diet.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Just goes to show. Its like asking economists for a prediction, ask 10 and you'll get ten replies.
Horatio on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to Horatio)
> [...]
>
> The weight loss is not good if it is muscle! Since turning from veggie to meat eater I've put several kilos on, but have dropped a few waist sizes.

I wouldn't argue that vegetarianism is healthier than eating a reasonable amount of lean unprocessed meat, I don't eat meat from a moral point of view; although I do occasionally fall from grace. I'd argue that a healthy vegetarian diet is better for you than eating cheap processed meat two or three times a day, or eating fatty red meat on a daily basis.

> The 'damage' from eating meat is an interesting standpoint. Most pre industrial societies would laugh at anyone eschewing meat. Anecdotal, but very few centenarians and athletes are vegetarian.

Are relativity fewer centenarians vegetarian? That's surprising, do you know why that is? I've heard that not eating meat damages your teeth although I'm not sure of the details. Athletes do much more exercise than the average Joe so the comparison don't sit imo.

Did you see the BBC documentary Surviving progress? It suggests that the recent exponential explosion of technology has outrun the evolution process, and that we are operating in a time where we control huge resources with what is essentially hardware evolved to survive in times of scarcity. On the one hand this technology is prolonging and making our lives more prosperous, on the other it's damaging us with pollution and obesity. Most of the things we do are designed to allow a small number of people to collect a hugely disproportional amount of resources, no? And is ultimately pointless from a survival point of view.



mattrm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to mattrm)
>
> http://blog.joerogan.net/archives/5409
>
> Skip to the middle I think when he starts talking about nutrition for endurance training. First bit is about vegan diet.

Thanks for that.

Eric9Points - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Horatio:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
> Are relativity fewer centenarians vegetarian? That's surprising, do you know why that is?

I was going to say that I thought that Japan had the highest proportion of centenarians in it's population but a quick google leaves me not so sure about that.

Certainly looking at this table suggests to me that being rich is the key to a long life rather than much to do with diet:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/population/life_expectancy_at_birth_male_2012_0.html


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