/ Should the UK leave the EU?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Blizzard - on 11 Nov 2012
Darron - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:
But if we left it would negate the right of 'hundreds of thousands' of Britons to live in, say, Spain
seankenny - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

Is this, or isn't this, something that's been on the cards for five years as part of European enlargement?
Sir Chasm - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard: Don't panic, most of them probably want to come here and work - unlike countless thousands of our homegrown feckless wasters.
Tom Last - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

Result! Romanian girls are gorgeous.
Blizzard - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:

I can tell you only read the headline. Remember New Labour? How they misjudged the numbers of immigrants back in 2004. Do you think

1) The UK can afford them?

2) That we have the space? This country is already overcrowded and over congested.

3) That there are actually jobs for them to do?

If there is another influx of Eastern Europeans, personally I think it spells disaster, especially if you are in the job market looking for employment.
Graeme Alderson on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard: Apparently there are 7+million Bulgarians and a shade over 19 million Romanians yet 29 million of them are going to come over here.

Someone isn't very good at maths.
Graeme Alderson on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard: Don't worry, once Scotland becomes independant and (miracoulously) becomes as rich as Norway they will all head up north, lots of room there.
Sir Chasm - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard: Do you think people come here for the dole? I think most immigrants come here to work. If people are blaming immigrants because they haven't got a job they should look a little closer to home.
Dauphin - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:
> (In reply to Sir Chasm)
>
> I can tell you only read the headline. Remember New Labour? How they misjudged the numbers of immigrants back in 2004. Do you think

No misjudgement - just more lying to the electorate
>
> 1) The UK can afford them?
>
Cheap labour - essential for global markets to function

> 2) That we have the space? This country is already overcrowded and over congested.

Doubt the people who live in Kensington & Chelsea who make the decisions will be seeing an influx and pressure on their schools or hospitals.
>
> 3) That there are actually jobs for them to do?

Plenty of feckless wasters we are paying to do nowt but entertain themselves with white lightening & cheap electronic consumer goods from China
>
> If there is another influx of Eastern Europeans, personally I think it spells disaster, especially if you are in the job market looking for employment.

Better up your game then fella.

D
JSA - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Blizzard) Do you think people come here for the dole? I think most immigrants come here to work. If people are blaming immigrants because they haven't got a job they should look a little closer to home.

Yep, the employers!
Sir Chasm - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to JSA: Yes, there's always someone else to blame if you live in little England.
SARS on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

Not particularly worried about some huge influx - although there is an argument that it's a little unfair on our own if there's an influx which undermines our lower paid workers.

However, I am concerned about a potential rise in organised crime. I was in Bulgaria last year visiting a Bulgarian mate. There is a mafia, and openly so, operating out there. We were in a few bars on evenings out and it was clear who were the goons. All muscle and tight t-shirts rolling up in Bentleys with blondies on their shoulders and cigars in their mouths.
JSA - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Must be wonderful living in ignorant bliss!

I deliver to companies who only employ foreigners on the shop floor or trades on site. It's the main reason I can't get a job doing what I trained four years to do. I can't live on a minimum wage, yet I work longer hours than most for not much more.

I live in the real world pal, not little England!
thebrookster on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to SARS:

> However, I am concerned about a potential rise in organised crime. I was in Bulgaria last year visiting a Bulgarian mate. There is a mafia, and openly so, operating out there. We were in a few bars on evenings out and it was clear who were the goons. All muscle and tight t-shirts rolling up in Bentleys with blondies on their shoulders and cigars in their mouths.

It would have happened already, if it was going to be a problem.

The restrictions are only in relation to working in the UK, they can still visit and live here happily, if they are self-sufficient.
Also, you have to consider the practicalities. Why would a Bulgarian crime lord come to the UK, and face a fairly efficient police force when they can stay in Bulgaria and live the life of crime with less risk?
Sir Chasm - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to JSA: So your solution to your employment issues is to chuck out the foreigners? And then all will be well.
JSA - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:

So let me get this straight, you seem to think that cheap labour is fine?

I spoke to onw polish guy a couple of weeks ago, I asked him how he could afford to live on minimum wage, his answer was that there are five couples living in the 4 bed house they rent. The rest of the money they earn (after bills, food etc) goes straight into the bank back home. The vast majority of people he knows do similar.

And this is good for the economy?

Like I say, you need to get into the real world.
Dauphin - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to thebrookster:

Expand the business maybe? You think the Met are anything like as ruthless as the Bulgarian / Romanian police/mafia?

Old news already - London is full of eastern European, Russian, Turkish, Kurdish, Chinese and Albanian organized crime syndicates. Plenty of our own too.

D
Sir Chasm - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to JSA: Of course cheap labour is fine, I bet you don't complain your curry is too cheap and you don't offer to pay your taxi driver more than he asks. What you mean is that you don't like the competition.
JSA - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm: Haha, if only we could afford a takeaway, we always make our own curries, far tastier IMO. And the last time I caught a taxi was at least 3 years back. I don't even drink.

Kinda pissed on your bonfire eh?

The lessen here is don't make assumptions about people you don't know!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Sir Chasm - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to JSA: That's certainly one lesson.
stroppygob - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard: Yes, the UK should get out of the EU asap. It has been nothing but a disaster for the UK, a bottomless money pit.
In reply to seankenny:

> Is this, or isn't this, something that's been on the cards for five years as part of European enlargement?

I don't think anyone actually answered your question Sean, but yes, the UK introduced a five year transition period on Bul. and Rom. and that is nearly up as it's five years since they joined. The UK (and Ireland) actually acted rather honourably for the 2004 enlargement (Poland, Czech, Hung., Cyprus, Baltics + some others I've forgotten I'm sure!). Most of the the pre-existing EU members (the EU-15) instituted 'transition periods' - i.e. Germany not allowing free movement of Polish labour for five years. IIRC this was probably illegal really but because France and Germany wanted it, some weaselly way was found. Anyway, as a result, the UK and Ireland saw a disproportionate number of Poles, Lats, Estonians, Czechs etc. trying to find work there because they couldn't go to Germany or France. When 2007 came around and Romania and Bulgaria joined, the UK govt. said 'this time we're having a transition period', and that's what is about to run out.

I have a Romanian mate who's brother found himself a job in Sheffield but couldn't get a work visa because of this. Seemed a bit of shame as he wanted to stay in the UK for a bit and get some experience, and the bloke who wanted to employ him couldn't find a local to take the job, but IIRC because my mate's brother doesn't have a degree, the job was considered low skilled and Romanians couldn't get visas for that. Had it been a more specialist job that needed a degree, he would have been able to get one.
Orgsm on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

Should London leave the uk? (All those immigrants....)
Dauphin - on 11 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA:

plenty of Polish in germany, france, belgium, nederlands since 1990 Toby - working in the black economy.

d
Doug on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Dauphin: & plenty of Brits working in the black economy, both in the UK and elsewhere, so ?
brokenbanjo - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

No we shouldn't. And all this crap about people coming to 'our' Country is exactly that. There is absolutely nothing stopping the lower paid, feckless 'native' unemployed heading off to the EU to work. Oh, actually, yes there is, it's our inept education that doesn't actually teach us a second language and this arrogant sense of entitlement. So what if there are Poles, Czechs etc working over here. We live in a free-market and labour is a commodity, not a right. Let's blame the recession on the foreigners, as it's convenient. Not on the bankers that bought bad debt and got found out, or on the Govt which has followed an ideology rather than economics. But yes,it's all those pesky foreigners that have caused this, damn them and damn their pesky ways.
Ciro - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

It works both ways. I like the fact that I'll be free to take up a job anywhere in europe any time I decide I've had enough of london, and the more countries that includes, the more choice I'll have.

Mind you, if I was the rest of europe I'd kick us out... all we ever seem to want to do is take what we can from the relationship without putting anything back.

I think it was a french politition who described us as the guy who comes to the wife swapping party without a wife. Sounds about right.
EeeByGum - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JSA:

> And this is good for the economy?
Agreed - it isn't quite right

> Like I say, you need to get into the real world.
But, we are now playing on a world market stage and that also includes people like your mate who is happy to live in one room with 4 other families and also people in India and China who work for peanuts. Given that capitalism is king now, please tell me which UK business making widgets like those elsewhere can afford to pay over the odds to its staff out of moral duty?
Sir Chasm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro: Take what we can? Hmmmm, I wonder how many of the 27 EU countries are net contributors?
Al Evans on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm: I wonder how many Scotsmen are on the dole in London compared to how many Englishmen are on the dole in Glasgow or Madrid?
Sir Chasm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans: I wonder how many people who've buggered off to live abroad are concerned about the benefits system in the country they've left.
Cuthbert on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

It should only leave if there is a referendum and the vote says so. The incompetent structures at Westminster will muck it up so best to remove them from the equation.
dissonance - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

> It should only leave if there is a referendum and the vote says so. The incompetent structures at Westminster will muck it up so best to remove them from the equation.

they would be the ones implementing the fine details anyway so not sure what the difference would be?
The complexity comes after the yes/no and i dont think anyone could manage to survive a referendum going through all the details with their sanity intact.
Cuthbert on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to dissonance:

What is very clear is that there is a rise in right wing anti-EU sentiment in the UK, fueled I think by Daily Mail types and a superiority complex.

I don't think this is widespread in many parts of the UK though and seems to mainly come from the Midlands south and east.

The Uk will probably break up before there is an EU vote thus making it easier to England to have the isolation some seek so much.
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to JSA) Of course cheap labour is fine, I bet you don't complain your curry is too cheap and you don't offer to pay your taxi driver more than he asks.

If you think that people on minimum wage take taxis then it's you who don't live in the real world!

I suppose being an aristocrat you really have no idea how the majority of working people live.
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to brokenbanjo:

> There is absolutely nothing stopping the lower paid, feckless 'native' unemployed heading off to the EU to work.

So all those millions of unemployed throughout Europe are just "feckless", are they? It's not just you banjo that's broken.
Doug on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to dissonance)
>
> What is very clear is that there is a rise in right wing anti-EU sentiment in the UK, fueled I think by Daily Mail types and a superiority complex.
>
also fuelled by either ignorance or deliberate misinformation about the EU ( & maybe a mix of both in some cases)
Sir Chasm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: I didn't refer to anyone living in the real world, when we all live in the same world it's a ridiculous phrase. And next you'll be telling me that people on the dole never use taxis or frequent take-away establishments.
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Ciro:

> I think it was a french politition who described us as the guy who comes to the wife swapping party without a wife. Sounds about right.

If you look at the figures I think you'll find it's France, through farm subsidies, that does particularly well out of the EU, not Britain.... but don't let me stop you in your auto flagellation if it makes you feel better.

Also France was much less generous towards E European immigrants than Britain at first, setting up strict limitations... at present the situation created by large numbers of "Roms", Romanian gypsies who have come to France but are prevented from occupying a large number of jobs by French legislation, and resort quite openly to organised begging and less openly to crime. The Rumanian's don't want them back either and they are badly treated there so they prefer begging in France... They'll be in Britain soon apparently so you'll be able to see for yourself.
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)

> And next you'll be telling me that people on the dole never use taxis or frequent take-away establishments.

Sorry, you're quite right, they don't take taxis they prefer limousines!

I've a suggestion for you "Sir", why don't you borrow your butlers old clothes, leave your mansion, and wander about the streets of England (or wherever to abide) incognito? Observe how people live, go to a Job Centre and ask those coming out where the nearest taxi stand is, for example... you may be amazed to see how many don't know.

Even without being on the doll I can't remember when I took a taxi, maybe only a couple of times in more than 60 years of life.

Sir Chasm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Here's a suggestion for you Bruce, when you're next in Blighty go to a tesco in the less affluent area of your local town and profile the people who get a taxi home.
In reply to Dauphin: Plus I'm sure some who got working visas of some sort, but the main point is that EU membership means an easy and legal right to work elsewhere.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> Hmmmm, I wonder how many of the 27 EU countries are net contributors?

I'm presuming that was meant rhetorically, but it's not really a difficult quetion. Belgium, Denmark, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Austria, Finland, Sweden, UK. That was 2010 figures: http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/
Sir Chasm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA: No it isn't a difficult question. Neither is figuring out that the EU doesn't want rid of (depending which figures you use) one of its biggest contributors - contrary to ciro's contention.
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Tesco eh? Already up-market and you don't even realise it!
MJH - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:
> 1) The UK can afford them?

The "UK" doesn't need to afford them if they are working and paying tax...

> 2) That we have the space? This country is already overcrowded and over congested.

We have loads of space. It is only really the SE that is overcrowded.

> 3) That there are actually jobs for them to do?

A few thousand E. Europeans isn't likely to be the tipping point.

> If there is another influx of Eastern Europeans, personally I think it spells disaster, especially if you are in the job market looking for employment.

What sort of disaster?
Sir Chasm - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: You can substitute any retailer of your choice and you will still find that your idea that the poor don't use taxis is wrong.
Blizzard - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to MJH:

If they are working in the black economy, they are not contributing in any way to our economy tax wise.

We have room? You are kidding, take a look at the gridlock on our roads during rush hour even now, its only going to get worse. (a minor point)

All those clever graduates who finally get out of university, cant get a job, and finally wake up and organise a revolution. Riots on the street. It happened in London last year. Perhaps some of the young generation might actually take direct action, like in Greece, at the state the country might be heading thanks to our useless politicians who havnt actually come up with any solutions to the Euro crisis.

I dont have my crystal ball in front of me, but if there are fewer and fewer opportunities due to an ever expanding labour market, it might be good for corporate businesses, not the individual. I'd like to see some sort of revolt in the future.

Personally I'd be happy if we did pull out of the EU. What real benefits are we actually gaining from it?
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Blizzard:

Trade?
Bruce Hooker - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Chasm:

You sound like Marie Antoinette... "... if they haven't bread, why don't they eat cake?"
Wonko The Sane - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Sir Chasm)
>
> You sound like Marie Antoinette... "... if they haven't bread, why don't they eat cake?"

I hate that quote.

When I was a lot younger and elt's say......... slightly less educated, I honestly thought Marie Antoinette was a benevloent aristocrat who distributed cake to the poor :/
Bruce Hooker - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Wonko The Sane:

It's a poor translation though, what she really suggested was "brioche", a sort of sweet, light bread but in English it's always translated as cake.

She's getting a more sympathetic treatment in France at present, as if some sort of rehabilitation campaign was under way.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.