/ Dalai Lama

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mypyrex - on 18 Nov 2012
Just wondering what others think about the Dalai Lama. On the Annapurna Circuit and, to a certain extent, on the EBC I came to the conclusion that he is greatly revered in that part of the world.

When I've seen him on TV I've always felt touched by his warmth and sincerity and often felt that I would like to meet him - not that I'm likely to.

A kindly and gentle person in my mind.
Timmd on 18 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:

Ditto, I went to a talk he gave in Manchester and that's how he came across to me, the ticket fees went towards something charitable/some other good cause, but I forget what it was, it wasn't the reason I wanted to go.
Denni on 18 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:

Very nearly met him in India, gutted that I missed out.

Have been to a couple of his talks in the UK, doesn't talk for the sake of talking. If you like the DL, have a google for Jiddu Krishnamurti and Satish Kumar and maybe read their books, great stuff.

mypyrex - on 18 Nov 2012
In reply to Timmd: May sound a bit silly but I've just emailed his office and said how privileged I felt to have been able to visit a part of the world close to his heart.
mypyrex - on 18 Nov 2012
In reply to Denni:
> (In reply to mypyrex)
>
> Very nearly met him in India, gutted that I missed out.
>
> Have been to a couple of his talks in the UK, doesn't talk for the sake of talking. If you like the DL, have a google for Jiddu Krishnamurti and Satish Kumar and maybe read their books, great stuff.

Thanks

Denni on 18 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:

Here you go (not the best video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6de9FjR40g0

Satish Kumar, Earth Pilgrim.
Rob Exile Ward on 18 Nov 2012
In reply to Denni: Where's that sodding Bruce Hooker when you need him?
Pyreneenemec - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:

There is a much less discussed darker side to His Holiness.

mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to mypyrex)
>
> There is a much less discussed darker side to His Holiness.

viz:
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I'm not going to feed this troll.... for once.
Pyreneenemec - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:

Maxime Vivas' 'Le Daila Lama- Pas Si Zen' is food for thought.

You'd have to read the book to make up your own mind. I'm not saying that the Daila Lama is evil, but he is without doubt, a power-loving autocrate with all the failings that accompany it.
mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec: As liitle as I know about Buddhism I can't see any more wrong with a phylosophy and its leader that advocates tolerance and compassion. Compared with the dogma, bigotry and hypocrisy not to mention evil and violence committed in the name of some religions I think Buddhism has a lot to commend it. Just my own view.
mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec: PS I also feel that the Dalai Lama demonstrates more warmth and sincerity than any other world or religious leaders. Again my personal view.
Pyreneenemec - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec) PS I also feel that the Dalai Lama demonstrates more warmth and sincerity than any other world or religious leaders. Again my personal view.


Your original comments were about the man not Buddhism.

My reply was about the man not Buddhism.

I'll leave things at that.

Why not read the book ?

dissonance - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:
> Compared with the dogma, bigotry and hypocrisy not to mention evil and violence committed in the name of some religions I think Buddhism has a lot to commend it.

you do know there are varying types of Buddhism not all of which are overly peaceful dont you? Also have you looked at the history of Tibet?

I once stayed on the same floor of a hotel as the Dalai Lama (near Delhi airport). Certainly had a lot of men capable of carrying out violence around him. There was a surprising number of blokes in the hotel that night who despite the heat had all decided to wear jackets.

IainRUK - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex: Have you read anything about the DL? Abuse by the Tibetan monastries is fairly well documented, people don't want to go looking as it changes their preconceived ideas.

People are quick to point the finger at the catholic church regards child abuse but the buddhist monastries are far from clean in this matter.
deepsoup - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:
> PS I also feel that the Dalai Lama demonstrates more warmth and sincerity than any other world or religious leaders.

Almost. ;o)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu
Al Evans on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex: When I was in Tibet the kids always came up to us asking if we had any pictures of the Dalai Lama, the squaddies I was with that had been before knew what to expect and had brought a wodge of pictures with them, the kids used to be delighted if they got one.
Mind you they were also delighted if you gave them an empty glass or plastic bottle. Pencils and crayons were good too :-)
mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to mypyrex)
> [...]
>
> Almost. ;o)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu
Fair comment

mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to mypyrex) When I was in Tibet the kids always came up to us asking if we had any pictures of the Dalai Lama, the squaddies I was with that had been before knew what to expect and had brought a wodge of pictures with them, the kids used to be delighted if they got one.
> Mind you they were also delighted if you gave them an empty glass or plastic bottle. Pencils and crayons were good too :-)

Reminds me of the other day; two kids, one about five, the other about twelve, followed us for about two miles out of Tatopani trying to sell us oranges. We were on a fairly steep ascent to Sikha and, in the heat, were puffing and blowing a bit. Needless to say they were "skipping along".

ads.ukclimbing.com
Timmd on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6578798eWF2PG6G?h1=BBC+-+Undercover+in+Tibet+(why+the+tension+at+the+Beij...

Have you watched this Dispatches which came out after the rioting in Tibet in 2008? The premise of your book is that Tibetans are free in Tibet under the Chinese with religious freedom. When the Chinese don't have religious freedom and are not free in China, I struggle to believe this.

When there was rioting in a largely Muslim region of of western China a year or two ago, I read accounts of how the Chinese authorites had changed the tiles in thier Mosques, because the tiles had symbols on them to indicate which direction to pray in, and they had changed them so that this wasn't clear. In any way possible, it honestly seems like the Chinese authorities do what they can to undermine anything which they see as not inkeeping with how they wish modern China to become.

It's very sad when the risks of continuing lack of freedoms which Ai Wei Wei and other Chinese dissidents are calling for in China are the unrest and the instability which the authorities are trying to avoid.

Pyreneenemec - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec)
>
> http://www.veoh.com/watch/v6578798eWF2PG6G?h1=BBC+-+Undercover+in+Tibet+(why+the+tension+at+the+Beij...
>
> Have you watched this Dispatches which came out after the rioting in Tibet in 2008? The premise of your book is that Tibetans are free in Tibet under the Chinese with religious freedom. When the Chinese don't have religious freedom and are not free in China, I struggle to believe this.
>
> .

Please do not hi-jack the OP thread.

My comments were made in relation to the Daila Lama and not Chinese repression in Tibet. The book is useful in so much as it tries to paint an alternative picture of the man.

If that's the way you wish to go, it's without me. The result will be a couple of hundred posts from a handful of UKC regulars that I feel more often than not just like to hear the sound of their own voices.
Alex Slipchuk on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex: i always thought he lives to a better standard than his people whilst spouting religious cliches to the adoration of people who spend more on luxurious goods than they donate to charity. Sorry, i don't mean to offend, but just another well fed religious icon.
tlm - on 19 Nov 2012
Timmd on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Ok, the two are connected though, because your book in part deals with what he has said about China, and what is happening now in Tibet.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dragon-Land-Snows-History-original/dp/0712665331

This is a good book too, i'm reading it at the moment, is written by an academic who tries very hard to be objective, and to simply outline the course of events since 1947.

Tim
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

> My comments were made in relation to the Daila Lama and not Chinese repression in Tibet. The book is useful in so much as it tries to paint an alternative picture of the man.

This description makes it sound more about Chinese policy on tibet than the man himself: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/behind-the-smile-maxime-vivas/1113113635 Is that not a good summing up?
Al Evans on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to mypyrex:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Reminds me of the other day; two kids, one about five, the other about twelve, followed us for about two miles out of Tatopani trying to sell us oranges. We were on a fairly steep ascent to Sikha and, in the heat, were puffing and blowing a bit. Needless to say they were "skipping along".

Is that Tatopani near the Tibet border ? Did you go to the natural hot showers?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=128522
mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans: The one down stream from Jomsom. Hot spring was great.
David Martin - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Is it possible to summarise the key points of the book that detract from the "great and benevolent man" view?

I ask as every institution is capable of harbouring areas of abuse and every leader will be viewed by some to be autocratic. But when seen in perspective against the region, the country's wealth, history or available alternatives etc it might be clutching at straws to damn a figure such as the Dalai Llama based on this.

That said, I only see the positive sounding quotes and the public face. Perhaps he is a cvnt. I'd just be a little wary of coming to that conclusion unless evidence points pretty strongly that way.
mypyrex - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to David Martin: Quite. Whatever WE think of him I get the impression that, certainly in my limited visits to Nepal, the people I have met have a great deal of reverence for him. But there again I've only been twice and only met a relative handful of people.
Wonko The Sane - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec)
>
> Is it possible to summarise the key points of the book that detract from the "great and benevolent man" view?
>
> I ask as every institution is capable of harbouring areas of abuse and every leader will be viewed by some to be autocratic. But when seen in perspective against the region, the country's wealth, history or available alternatives etc it might be clutching at straws to damn a figure such as the Dalai Llama based on this.
>
> That said, I only see the positive sounding quotes and the public face. Perhaps he is a cvnt. I'd just be a little wary of coming to that conclusion unless evidence points pretty strongly that way.

I don't think anyone is calling him a cnut.
But he is without doubt a politician and a skilled media manipulator.

I have nothing against what he does......... campaigning in the interests of his followers. I do however dislike the idea that many people see him as somehow 'better' than other politicians.

I don't think he is at all.
Why do people have this need to see someone as absolute good or bad?
He's just a bloke doing a job.
Pyreneenemec - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to David Martin:

Here is a good example:

"Mais revenons aux dollars. Depuis sa fuite de Chine, le dalaï-lama a bénéficié, en évitant de s’en vanter, de subventions de la CIA. De 1959 à 1972, cent quatre-vingt mille dollars lui ont été personnellement versés chaque année. Il a longtemps nié cette vérité. Mais les USA, auxquels l’on peut trouver bien des défauts, ont la qualité enviable de disposer de lois sur les déclassifications des documents comptables après un temps qui varie avec la nature de ces documents. En 1998, les documents ayant parlé, le « gouvernement » du dalaï-lama devait admettre ce qui était rendu public, se bornant à démentir que Sa Sainteté aurait profité « "personnellement » de cet argent, tandis que son représentant à Washington déclarait n’être au courant ni de cette subvention, ni de son utilisation. Sur les liens entre la CIA et le dalaï-lama, il concéda cependant : « C’est un secret dévoilé, nous ne le contestons pas.»"


You'll have to translate it yourself if you don't understand french.

In brief, the Daila Lama is partly financed by the C.I.A and personaly profits from the funds.

I've no problem with this, after all it's only human !
Coel Hellier - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to David Martin:

> Is it possible to summarise the key points of the book that detract from the "great and
> benevolent man" view?

Surely it is relatively easy to appear "great and benevolent" if you only have to swan around the world appearing so, and don't have to actually run anything or do anything or come up with any actual policies or make compromises, etc. I'm sure many politicians, Blair and Cameron for example, could appear nice and benevolent if they didn't have to have any policies or run anything.
Timmd on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to David Martin)

> Surely it is relatively easy to appear "great and benevolent" if you only have to swan around the world appearing so, and don't have to actually run anything or do anything or come up with any actual policies or make compromises, etc. I'm sure many politicians, Blair and Cameron for example, could appear nice and benevolent if they didn't have to have any policies or run anything.

Which presupposes that he's actually allowed to enter Tibet by the Chinese to run things there, he has always spoken of a middle path or a compromise, where Tibet is still a part of China but governed by Tibetans, and for what it's worth the Tibetan Government in Exile has members hwich are democratically elected.

The government in Beijing has built a 'retirement palace' for him in Beijing, but he's not allowed to enter Tibet.

His late brother wanted Tibetans to take up arms against the Chinese, where the DL has always favoured peace. At the moment Tibetans who otherwise would be taking up arms or engaging in what some might call terrorism against Chinese rule, don't do because of the DL not being in favour of this.

Apparently he's sometimes prone to being grumpy, and has commented on both holes not being appropriate when it comes to people having sex, which is open to interpretation, some gay people don't like it up there either, despite common perceptions to the contrary. He's as human as all people are, but he has always called for peacefullness and people attempting to understand each other as well, while not perfect I think he has some very positive qualities as well.
Timmd on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Timmd:By saying it's open to interpretation, I just mean i'm not trying to guess what's going on psychologically/personally with the DL. It'd be impossible to know.
Ramblin dave - on 19 Nov 2012
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to mypyrex)
>
> There is a much less discussed darker side to His Holiness.

I know the Red Bull thing was a fiasco, but hasn't he pretty much redeemed himself by going back and freeing it after the bolts were chopped?

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