/ Female First ascents

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Lukem6 - on 27 Nov 2012
Is there a list of female first ascents, particularly within the peak?
Sir Stefan - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:
Why?
RichardP - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Stefan:
> (In reply to lm610)
> Why?

I agree why

what diffenece does it make whether the climber is male or female?


Lukem6 - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610: no difference at all, me and a few friends was discussing the lack of first ascents by women,

According to rock fax this would've been the first in eastern grit

1942 Terrace Crack
FA. Freda Rylett early 1940s
Sir Stefan - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:
Lack of female first ascents may be due to lack of female climbers and this is some how linked to traditional gender roles. Now, this is changing these years and cheers to that.
Lukem6 - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Stefan:

I agree its a great thing that its changing, but I'm just curious what the female ascents of the peak are?
Simon_Sheff - on 27 Nov 2012
Wiley Coyote - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:
I'm pretty sure that Bishop's Stride was not done by a woman
jon on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Simon_Sheff:

'First female ascents' is not the same as 'female first ascents'.
Simon_Sheff - on 27 Nov 2012

In reply to jon:

Sorry. Where did you get your hair shirt?
Shearwater - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Simon_Sheff:
> Sorry. Where did you get your hair shirt?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+are+two+different+things+different

Simon_Sheff - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Shearwater:

Did your mommy ever tell you what a quick learner you are? :-)
gazhbo - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Stefan:

Because it's interesting.
Jonny2vests - on 27 Nov 2012
In reply to Sir Stefan:
> (In reply to lm610)
> Lack of female first ascents may be due to lack of female climbers and this is some how linked to traditional gender roles.

So I'd be sexist then if I suggested that (adult) females are on average naturally more timid then?
jon on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to Simon_Sheff:
>
> In reply to jon:
>
> Sorry. Where did you get your hair shirt?

I don't understand your reply. Please explain.

For your information, first female ascent means the first ascent by a female of an EXISTING route. Whereas female first ascent means the the first ascent of a NEW route by a female. Not the same thing. Your link led straight to the former.

Simon_Sheff - on 28 Nov 2012
Postmanpat on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:

Veronica Lee was on the first ascent of Suicide Wall, Cratcliffe. Seconded I think?
astley007 - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to Postmanpat:
I recall that she led the first pitch to the Bower, and then Peter(H) went on do the second pitch. alt leads?
But wasnt there on the day they did it..
Dave Garnett - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to astley007:

She led the crux then!
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:
> Is there a list of female first ascents, particularly within the peak?

No, pretty sure there isn't. It would be a short list if there was, women tend to be, on average, more risk averse, not because of 'social yadda yadda', but because they're female. This isn't sexist, just factual. Emma Alsford is the most prolific Brit FAer I can think of.
pebbles - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> women tend to be, on average, more risk averse, not because of 'social yadda yadda', but because they're female. This isn't sexist, just factual.

ok I was trying to ignore this, but out of curiosity, what exhaustive scientific research* are you quoting?

*you and your mates sitting round in the pub chatting doesnt count

tlm - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Sir Stefan)
> [...]
>
> So I'd be sexist then if I suggested that (adult) females are on average naturally more timid then?

It depends on what you mean by 'naturally' and what your evidence for this is. :-)

pebbles - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to pebbles: bloomin 'eck, its not just women, its the chinese too! http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=528605&v=1#x7110239
risk averse, the lot of 'em. Apparently.
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to pebbles:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> ok I was trying to ignore this, but out of curiosity, what exhaustive scientific research* are you quoting?
>
> *you and your mates sitting round in the pub chatting doesnt count

To suggest otherwise is fairly preposterous once you think outside of our sanitised PC world and consider evolution. Men evolved as risk takers in their hunter-gatherer capacity, women evolved nurturing children, so why would it be any different?

Empirical evidence is everywhere you care to look, if I said men are more likely to get in a fight, would you require scientific evidence? Many aspects of every day life involve males (on average), from an early age, taking more physical risk than females (think playing in quarries, joy riding, wars etc). Its hardly worth challenging. This isn't my field, but a brief search on google scholar revealed many papers, here's a few:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0272-4332.2004.00416.x/abstract?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1539-6924.1994.tb00082.x/abstract
http://www.cycle-helmets.com/women-cycling.pdf

Its not just physical risk either, it translates to financial risk also, there's a ton of papers on that.
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to pebbles:
> (In reply to pebbles)
> risk averse, the lot of 'em. Apparently.

That's not fair, that's not what I said. And that was purely my observation of what 'seems' to be the case, I have nothing to back it up. There are papers regarding race and risk aversion, but lets not go there.
Bruce Hooker - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:

Coming back to Jon's point, are there many first ascents of new climbs by women?
estivoautumnal - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to Richard Phelan:
> (In reply to Sir Stefan)
> [...]
>
> I agree why
>
> what diffenece does it make whether the climber is male or female?

Why? Why not?

Seems a pretty straightforward question before the pc police came along.

dr_botnik - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:

Defo know Hope on Idwal slabs was first ascended by a femme... back in the days when climbers had balls ;)

Gotta be a load by Lynne Hill surely? I know she did The Nose (BIG ASCENT)

Right about here my trivia runs dry... I would be interested if anyones ever researched this though?
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to estivoautumnal:
> (In reply to Richard Phelan)
> [...]
>
> Why? Why not?
>
> Seems a pretty straightforward question before the pc police came along.

Yeah, its an interesting topic.
mariechen - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to pebbles)

Hm, I suppose if you are accepting this as fact, there are still different ways of interpreting it though. You could equally claim that men are say more reckless...
ads.ukclimbing.com
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to dr_botnik:

Our very own Emma Alsford has been fairly prolific.

In reply to mariechen:

Yes. Risk and recklessness are fairly complimentary I'd say.
bullybones - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
Truth is, you don't really need that argument, because the higher frequency of male FAs can be attributed to the higher frequency of male ascents in general. There have been more males around at every point in climbing development. Nothing much to do with FAs in particular.



pebbles - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: you do understand the difference between "something I personally believe" and "fact"? Because what you've just stated is the former. I think its probably all a little more complex than your "stands to reason, prehistoric men were the hunters innit" approach, and you need to come up with a little more evidence than just throwing your toys out of the pram and screaming "pc police" every time youre challenged
johncoxmysteriously - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to dr_botnik:
> (In reply to lm610)
>
> Defo know Hope on Idwal slabs was first ascended by a femme... back in the days when climbers had balls ;)

Yes, and Dorothy Pilley was on the FA of Holly Tree Wall, I think? Though she didn't do much leading, to judge from her book.
>
> Gotta be a load by Lynne Hill surely? I know she did The Nose (BIG ASCENT)

Not sure how many FAs she made but famously Vandals, showing all the leading Gunks climbers of the day how to do it. And someone's mentioned Beth Rodden's crack in Yosemite, as would I if I could remember its name. Another Meltdown, was it?

I'd imagine Pamela (er, senior moment) - well, whatever that lass who does offwidths is called - has done a few.

jcm
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to pebbles:
> (In reply to jonny2vests) you do understand the difference between "something I personally believe" and "fact"? Because what you've just stated is the former. I think its probably all a little more complex than your "stands to reason, prehistoric men were the hunters innit" approach, and you need to come up with a little more evidence than just throwing your toys out of the pram and screaming "pc police" every time youre challenged

I think you misinterpreted my tone. You asked for evidence and I gave you empirical evidence and peer reviewed research. That's not really throwing my toys out of the pram is it?
pebbles - on 28 Nov 2012
Jonny2vests - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to bullybones:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> Truth is, you don't really need that argument, because the higher frequency of male FAs can be attributed to the higher frequency of male ascents in general.

Well, yeah, but what is the higher frequency of male ascents in general attributable to? That's the point I'm making.
bullybones - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

I think you're mostly right, but for the wrong reasons. Although one can make a convincing neo-Darwinian case for women being comparatively risk-averse (who's going to look after the kids?), it's a harder task to build one for males being risk takers based just on our hunter-gatherer past. What sense does it make to pointlessly risk removing your genes from the possibilty of contributing to the next generation, by soloing, or doing any high risk activity? Not much if you're a hunter-gatherer.

However, if you look at social evolution, and male behaviour in tournament species like baboons, it's clear that cultural and socio-psychological factors are in play too. If you're an insecure, neurotic, rank-seeking stressed out male somewhere in the middle of a social pecking order over which you don't have much control, you might do something risky occasionally. Especially if you get to bullshit around the camp fire afterwards.
Jonny2vests - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to bullybones:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> What sense does it make to pointlessly risk removing your genes from the possibilty of contributing to the next generation, by soloing, or doing any high risk activity? Not much if you're a hunter-gatherer.

Increased risk in an evolutionary sense is often balanced against acquiring more food. You might get lucky vs you might get killed. Self preservation therefore might have the opposite effect, as you may end up starving to death.
bullybones - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to bullybones)
> Increased risk in an evolutionary sense is often balanced against acquiring more food.

Much less of a risk if you're a smart ape at/near the top of the food chain. Three hours a day is all you need to get food, the rest of the time you're showing off to your rivals, trying to get a shag, beating up on weaklings, getting groomed by nice friends, etc etc.
Lukem6 - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610: ok so a couple of results, hidden amongst the drivel. Any more Female ascents, any local to the Midlands. Just out of interest. It'd be interesting to know who was pioneering in a male dominated activity.

I don't really care, why more men climb than women or the reasons for a woman or man to climb. These debates can be found on other posts. The question is, does anyone know of first ascents by women>

I'm just intrigued by the idea that some one may have broken the mould here in t he UK. Did we ever have a Lynn Hill of the UK, and who was she?
Jonny2vests - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to bullybones:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Much less of a risk if you're a smart ape at/near the top of the food chain. Three hours a day is all you need to get food, the rest of the time you're showing off to your rivals, trying to get a shag, beating up on weaklings, getting groomed by nice friends, etc etc.

...which is also evolutionary. Thankyou for adding to my point! :-)
Jonny2vests - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:
> (In reply to lm610)

> I don't really care, why more men climb than women or the reasons for a woman or man to climb. These debates can be found on other posts. The question is, does anyone know of first ascents by women

Well, you started out asking for a list, and without stating any motivation. I'd be very surprised if such as thing existed. Assuming you wanted British (you asked for the Peak), Emma Alsford is the best example I can think of, not in Lynn Hill's league of course, we don't really have an opposite number to her. Lucy Creamer has bagged a few routes, maybe Catherine Shirmacher too? We had some good sport climbers back in the day, Rachel Farmer, Fliss Butler etc, not sure if they did any FAs. Pamela Shanti Pack is not a Brit.

Truth is 'Why not' is far more interesting question than 'Who', and threads digress all the time, nobody owns them.
john arran - on 29 Nov 2012
There's an inherent bias too in that climbing new routes is often a competitive process. We don't need to assert anything about men's and women's relative competitiveness, just to acknowledge that there are more male climbers than female and that in general women are typically climbing a couple or more grades lower than men. If there's a good new line to be done it's therefore more likely on average that it will be a man who spots it and if it's a hard route it's more likely again that a man will be able to climb it. This is simply by virtue of the number of climbers out there and the number climbing at each grade.

A related question may be why the hugely prolific new routers at non-cutting-edge grades tend to be men. Could this be simply statistical too or is it likely there's a sociological or psychological bias?
duchessofmalfi - on 29 Nov 2012
Isn't it because men are a bit sad, like collecting and like the affirmation that having their name against something brings to their otherwise inadequate lives?

A bit like train spotting really (another activity where "talent" isn't really gender determined but where men dominate).
Al Evans on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to duchessofmalfi: Well I know for a fact that Ava Adore and Mita both led new trad fist ascents in Spain, plus another girl whose name evades me, I think it was Heather, I know this because I followed them all on those routes.
Al Evans on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Al Evans: Heres Mita leading Lovely Mita Mita Maid
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=94860
mit - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

Can we add: Glenda Huxter

Her profile can be found at: http://dmmclimbing.com/pro-team/glenda-huxter/
bullybones - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to lm610:
Drivel you say?
OK - look up Kath Pyke and Moira Viggers - both very active in Pembroke in the 80s/90s. First ascents lists can be found in the back of the CC Pembroke guide(s). Hope that helps.

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