/ still an onsight if you down climb, then go back up etc?

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angus - on 28 Nov 2012
happened the other day, some discussion followed but yeah where do you draw the line?
HarryB - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:

its onsight until you weight the gear/deck so down climbing is fine
George Fisher - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:

Only on a Wednesday though.
Kevin Woods - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to HarryB:
> (In reply to angus)
>
> its onsight until you weight the gear/deck so down climbing is fine

This. And therefore you can climb up place some gear, downclimb to the ground, freshen up then go for the route like a sport route. (if it's that safe, for instance)
GridNorth - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: I really don't get hung up on this and I don't understand why people do. It's not as if there are any prizes or awards. I just give a route my best shot and leave it at that.

John
Bulls Crack - on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:
> happened the other day, some discussion followed but yeah where do you draw the line?

As far as you can climb down. If it's that easy then it won't make any difference eg Traffic Jam Stoney.

It's a skill!
Stone Muppet - on 28 Nov 2012
Gridnorth: people like to measure their progress. And if you're going to measure you need to be consistent.

Yes you can climb back down.

Hmm I wonder if you can jump back down? If so then are all boulder problems onsights? If not then if bouldering do you have to reverse the sit start as well? Ha ha. Saying all this if the problem is easy enough for you to reverse you should be trying something harder anyway.
Stone Muppet - on 28 Nov 2012
(last comment only applies to bouldering)
puppythedog on 28 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: I downclimbed Chalkstorm and removed the Gear becuase I wasn't sure I could do it but wanted to keep the onsight. I've been resting and shaking out for a few months now :-)
Beardyman - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: I think it should at least be on the same day for this to count as an on sight. Although it is certainly a less pure ascent then climbing it in one go.

...In my opinion

1 - Pure onsight (no info, no chalked holds, no climbing down to rest)
2 - Onsight (chalked holds)
3 - Onsight(ish) (Down climbing to rest)
4 - Ground up (Jumping off one or more times before getting up)
5 - Ground up (Falling off one or more times before getting up)
6 - Flash (Doing it 1st go with info about the moves)
7 - Flash after abseil inspection
8 - Climbed (after some amount of practice)
9 - Retro Flash
10 - Failed
Jonny2vests - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Beardyman:

Wow. I think the tail is wagging the dog somewhat.
Edradour - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:

Why do people get so worked up about this stuff? Unless you're climbing at the international limit, putting up awesome first ascents, does it really matter?

Surely whether you're enjoying yourself is more important?
chockstone - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: You draw the line in the bedroom.. Where apparantley a rest is not allowed!
Beardyman - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: I don't personally get hung up about this. It's all good clean fun.
Beardyman - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to chockstone:
> (In reply to angus) You draw the line in the bedroom.. Where apparantley a rest is not allowed!

What about shaking out?

Is it wrong to climb a VS but be thinking about an E5 your mate just did?

Matt Rees - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to George Fisher:

So long as it's a odd numbered Wednesday of course.
needvert on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:

What about if you're scared of doing the next move on lead, so you go off route around the hard bit, come back on route, clip, down climb back to where you got scared, do the move now effectively on top rope. Decide you probably won't fall and hit that ledge and should have just stayed on route...So you unclip, downclimb [the off route way], then, now standing in the exact situation you were when initially got scared on lead, do the move and not fall, then continue on route to the to

?
Jamie B - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Fickalli:

> Why do people get so worked up about this stuff?

Why do people get worked up that they do?
Jonny2vests - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to Fickalli)
>
> [...]
>
> Why do people get worked up that they do?

Why do people get worked up about people getting worked up about people getting worked up?

I sense we're heading into an infinite abyss.
lmarenzi - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Beardyman:

I like your list!

Missing from the top of your list is the most cool form of ascent, namely the onsight solo first ascent. After that the next most cool form of ascent is your 10 - the fail. You picked something in a given style which was too hard, good on you for having the ambition to go for it!

All the rest is all a bit less cool.

Down climbing is fine and you can claim whatever you like as a result, but when you are stuck on a ledge watching your partner come down for the fifth time to a rest rather than going for the move and finally falling off it can be a bit boring.

x
Jamie B - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

Why are you getting worked up about me getting worked up about people getting worked up about people getting worked up? Tosser.
Bulls Crack - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Beardyman:
> (In reply to angus) I think it should at least be on the same day for this to count as an on sight. Although it is certainly a less pure ascent then climbing it in one go.
>
> ...In my opinion
>
> 1 - Pure onsight (no info, no chalked holds, no climbing down to rest)

you can climb down. What if there's a ledge/rest/shake higher up - can you not climb back down to those either? And not sure the day makes a difference 5 minutes, 1 hour, stand there for 12 hours..plus ca change - you're not going to magically learn something overnight I imagine!

neuromancer - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:

To avoid starting a new thread, what is the ascent called if it's your first shot, no beta, you fall onto gear, catch the rock, and complete the climb without resting?

Dogged?
jkarran - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to angus:

> happened the other day, some discussion followed but yeah where do you draw the line?

At discussing or worrying about it.
jk
Stone Muppet - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to neuromancer:
> (In reply to angus)
>
> To avoid starting a new thread, what is the ascent called if it's your first shot, no beta, you fall onto gear, catch the rock, and complete the climb without resting?
>
> Dogged?

Yes, dogged. For some reason this gets the same ethical label as it would if you had a rest.

I think that dates back to the mountaineering origins of climbing i.e. soloing in that situation you'd have been dead if not for the gear, so it's as good as a fail eh?

Make up another name for it if you like though, it's certainly more of an achievement than it would be with a rest in the middle isn't it.
neuromancer - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Stone Muppet:

It always struck me as ethically similar or better than coming back and climbing a second time cleanly in one ascent, yet it's considered less of an achievement than toprope practice and climbing on pre-placed gear.
Stone Muppet - on 30 Nov 2012
To be honest I think any attempt to put one form of ascent over another in terms of coolness is bound to fail. There are just so many factors involved! Decide whether or not you're personally happy with what you did, describe it to others and let them make up their own minds.
Stone Muppet - on 30 Nov 2012
As in, two actual (concrete) ascents (this vs that) can probably be compared most of the time(*) but comparing the classes (headpoint vs dogged) isn't going to end well.

(*) even then not all the time... a dogged attempt at a committing mountaineering route vs an onsight of the same tech grade on the local crag for example... apples and oranges.
lmarenzi - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Stone Muppet:

> To be honest I think any attempt to put one form of ascent over another in terms of coolness is bound to fail.

Surely cool is the measure of all things? What would The Fonz do?

Talking of which, I forgot the third most favourite ascent type:

Your partner goes up a route but falls off, defeated, and asks to be lowered. You comply, then climb up on his rope and the gear he has put in and complete the route.

I would like to call this "Alternate Lead" but the expression has already been used for multi pitch swinging of leads. Anyone?
Stone Muppet - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to lmarenzi: that's either "adding insult to injury" or "hero rescue flash" depending on whether or not the pair of you would be stuck on a ledge somewhere if you didn't do it
ads.ukclimbing.com
lmarenzi - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Stone Muppet:

"Hero Rescue Flash" it is.

I think we should save "adding insult to injury" for when you call down to him (and the rest of the crag) how easy it all felt ...
Robert Durran - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to HarryB:
> (In reply to angus)
>
> Its onsight until you weight the gear/deck so down climbing is fine.

Surely decking out without weighting any gear saves the onsight - equivalent to asking for enough slack to jump off without weighting the gear.

GridNorth - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to lmarenzi:
> (In reply to Stone Muppet)
>
> [...]
> Your partner goes up a route but falls off, defeated, and asks to be lowered. You comply, then climb up on his rope and the gear he has put in and complete the route.
>
I did Billy Whiz at Lawrencefield like that infront of a huge crowd of tourists and punters and a huge round of applause as I topped out. My mate was most upset and tried to convince everyone that he had done all the hard work.
lmarenzi - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to GridNorth:

Twice as sweet if he can't second clean tho!

I have a set of tricams which are very tricky to extract that I place gratuitously for the purpose of forcing my (now) second to rest on the rope to get them out, to prevent punters who might be watching getting confused ...

I think that should be "confirming the addition of insult to injury"

Anyone want to come climbing with me then?
john arran - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to lmarenzi:

> Your partner goes up a route but falls off, defeated, and asks to be lowered. You comply, then climb up on his rope and the gear he has put in and complete the route.
>
> I would like to call this "Alternate Lead" but the expression has already been used for multi pitch swinging of leads. Anyone?

It's a Team Yoyo
Rob Davies - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: It's OK so long as you were wearing a blindfold (without a nose peek).
Horatio on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to angus: Yeah, it's in the rules. Some of my onsights took place over several years, it didn't matter that I'd climbed 90% of the route over nine goes. Didn't weigh the rope so it's an onsight. People might tell me it's not an onsight, but they can f*ck off, because it is and this stuff is really important.

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