UKC

What would it take for you to end it all? ie what would have to happened to you to humilate you or for you to feel THAT BAD?

(This nurse who killed herself, was she over sensitive? - Im not trying to be insentive to it, just trying to understand, I mean she was only answering a phone call after all)

Dont shoot me down for making this post please.

In reply to Blizzard: I'd have to believe that living was not a viable alternative. I currently think that this would be a debilitating disease or accident (although I couldn't know until it happened if it was sufficient to be worth it). I tend towards the idea that if I had something terminal I would rather choose when and where than be reduced to nothing but pain.
When I was a bit miserable when I was younger and couldn't see a way to change it I thought about it but that was about wanting my circumstances to change rather than wanting to die.

In reply to Blizzard: There's only one single event I can think of which in isolation, if it were ever to happen, would cause me to end my own life, without question.
I dont know if a combination of smaller, but still difficult events, with a mind clouded by clinical depression would push me over the edge. Ive fortunately never been there.

In reply to Blizzard: I think the only think that would tip me over the edge is something terrible happening to my daughter.

In reply to Blizzard:

For me it wouldn't be a massive deal to be honest. I had a major operation 5 years ago and before I had it, I had a rough idea of how much disability I'd accept and if the outcome were worse than I wanted to accept, I'd have karked myself (don't worry, I'd have been very humane Nitrogen/argon gas)

Some people see that as weak. But I know me and know what made life worth having....... for me.


To kill myself over depression, I'm not sure. I think I'd have to really feel there was no further point to my life.


Looking at some of the threads where religious people go on and on and on about how they came to god might make me off myself one day though.

In reply to Blizzard:

I've had a few phases of feeling utterly hopeless and considering it quite seriously. I can only describe my experience as like being in a tunnel - you know that logic, reason, butterflies and lovely summer evenings are out there, but they feel separate somehow, and totally ungraspable. I think that if a person is in an extreme version of that state, if your thinking is very disordered and you're already somehow separated from the things that sustain meaning and purpose in life for most people, then for some people it doesn't take much to trip the switch that sees them attempt or commit suicide.

That's just my 2p, though.

In reply to Tall Clare: I think the whole idea of depression (for dire want of a better phrase) is that you are unable to rationalise and see the point in carrying on, hence why some people who suffer from depression struggle to get out of bed some mornings. I can imagine how a few crumby events on top of already feeling depressed could cause someone to end it. Ive never been at that point, but I have had one occasion where I almost robotically thought "whats the point?" and it wouldnt have taken much to put me on a downward spiral.
Your last point; I think you're just lacking in spiritual guidance. There are people who can help you see the path of true righteousness. You only have to ask

In reply to Jamming Dodger:

To all the rest of it, yep, exactly. To that last point - nooooooo! <runs off screaming>

In reply to Wonko The Sane:

That said, probably better just to torture THEM instead of offing myself. MUCH more pleasurable outcome

In reply to Tall Clare: Don't worry, a smartly-dressed and rather earnest type will find you and deliver some pamphlets.

T.

In reply to Tall Clare: Haha, sorry, that last point was meant for Wonko! I know how much he secretly admires the religeous views and just feels too embarrassed to join in with them. He reads the Bible at night, hidden inside a copy of Viz magazine.

In reply to Jamming Dodger:

I KNOW that, see my response

In reply to Pursued by a bear:

They keep coming round - I've had two lots of (female) Jehovah's Witnesses round in the last month.

In reply to Blizzard: Don't get too cocky.

I have a hostage

In reply to Tall Clare: Oh yeah, the bit about depression. I havent knowingly been clinically depressed, but there are definite times when ive felt very detached from myself and not really caring about much so I see what you mean about tunnel vision.
But Ive managed to pull myself out of these mindsets by doing things like going for a run, which perks me up no end, so I doubt it was true depression, or there would be a few thousand psychiatrists out of a job if the solution was that simple.

In reply to Tall Clare:

I hid in the garage last time they came round. They saw me pull up so I quickly stuck the car away, closed the doors and waited. I only had my front door key so couldnt sneak through to the back

In reply to Blizzard:
I believe that the difficulty with asking this question in a rational and pragmatic way is that life for some or at least for some of the time is not necessarily rational or pragmatic, and to varying degrees so. As an example; the broad umbrella of depression, you would be forgiven for thinking that someone depressed is depressed about something, which may be true but often is not. Life can be good, really good and depression can be a heavy unyielding force. I use the term depression as a very wide brush, one day perhaps we will understand its various elements more clearly.

Jb.

In reply to Jamming Dodger:

Ok, you've added humour

but from the other thread, the key question regarding that nurse is why?

Ive been suicidal many times,(due to mental distress and life circumstances) but actually doing it is a totally different thing.

In reply to Blizzard: It doesn't have to be anything major if someone's thinking becomes irrational or their perception is skewed.

In reply to ranger*goy:

I did like the mormons. They brought popcorn!!!

The rest I just say I'm an atheist.

In reply to John Mcshea:
Wow when I typed that there was only one response, I am slow at typing.

In reply to Blizzard:

Its is very possible we wont ever know why she came to the sad conclusion that she wanted to end her life. There may be things which come to light, there may be events going on in her life which will always stay private.
Answer this though, at times when youve felt really low and helpless, what put the brakes on you going through with it? The fear of pain or something else, such as what it might do to your family?
Like someone else has also mentioned, depression comes in many degrees of severity and not always with a direct cause.

In reply to Blizzard:

My 'vote's is for what they now call "life changing injuries"

I went as far as researching it in a detached, third person way. Didn't fund our about nitrogen /argon. A good thing, in hindsight.

In reply to Blizzard: Suicide and attempted suicide can often be impulsive acts in an acute and desperate state....sadly some don't make it but there are lots of folk who survive an attempt and upon reflection are very relieved...

....oddly enough sometimes being depressed can lower the risk and when ones mood begins to lift can be a risky time etc..

Very sad about this lass....who knows what state she must have been in..

In reply to Blizzard: I once took a young lad into hospital, early 20s and already on crutches recoverying from jumping off a motorway bridge. Fortunately I was driving, but the conversation between him and my collegue went something like:

Paramedic - "so do you feel like harming yourself?"

Patient - "yes"

Paramedic - "do you feel like harming any one else?"

Patients - "yes, I feel like killing myself and other people"

Paramedic - "so you feel depressed then?"

Patient - "I don't get why everyones's so obsessed with this idea that you have to be depressed to want to kill yourself"

Paramedic (rapidly changing subject) - "so do you work, what do you do?"

Patient - "I work in an electronics factory, I can wire anything!!!!"

So glad it was an out of areas call for us!!!!!

It puts a slightly different angle on the idea of suicide and why someone might do it.

In reply to abr1966:

Don't know whether there's any truth to it, but I was once told that the suicide rate increases when the clocks change in March, for the reason that you suggest. Anyone with any links to actual studies, articles that support this myth, I'd be interested.

In reply to Sarah Finney: Yep....more common in summer. Longer days, more alcohol consumed etc..

In reply to Blizzard: It's true about motivation returning increasing risks. I don't know about the spring thing though.

There is a lot of talk about depression and there is so much more to suicide than depression. In terms of attempts the highest risk groups would be personality disorders.

As for the earlier comment about being blue and going for a run that's good advice for anyone with low mood. Also a lot of people mistake low mood for depression.

In reply to Blizzard: If you haven't been depressed, you will never quite understand how desperate it can feel... I'm afraid that you come across as pretty insensitive.

However, to answer your question; Right now it would take a level of disabling injury or degenerative disease that would leave me completely dependant.

If you'd asked me at the very lowest point of my most serious depressive episode I'd have shrugged, laughed and wandered off in my own little world. my perspective was shot, the worst things that coukd happen and the most minor of slights were both equaly devastating; nothing made much sense, i was pretty reckless with my safety, because living and dying no longer mattered (and that was on a good day when i could actually leave my front door)... I didn't actively *want* to be dead, but the idea of not being alive seemed a lot less scary than it should do (my initial course of anti-depressants actually made that worse before it got better, I ended up extroverted, insomniac and with effectively no fear whatsoever for a week or so after they kicked in).

Seems like a confusing answer? If yes you got the point I'm trying to make.

In reply to Blizzard: At the end of the 80's I had a thriving business and a family. Then I went down with ME. At that time called 'yuppie flu'. There was some debate about whether it really was a real problem or just an excuse. I went from very fit, active and responsive to hardly able to walk, think or even eat and digest (It appears now they have decided that it is a result of not being able to process energy at a cellular level.) Enough background. After 6 months and losing about 40% of my body weight, and my business, house, car etc I became somewhat depressed. Other than looking like an advert for a charity I had nothing to show the severity. Even relatives seemed to think I was skiving. (Hell of a skive, 11.5 stone down to below 8. and I'm 6ft tall) I decided that I would go out, and get hit by a car so I would have a visible problem. Fortunately I was so weak that by the time I had walked half of the hundred yards to the main road I was knackered, and had to be helped home by a neighbour. I really would not have committed suicide, but can understand why someone without my self motivation, in the same circumstances would. After almost three years I was able to work again and have built on that ever since, knowing how bad things could be!

In reply to puppythedog:
Totally agree with that, taken a few in under section because they're suicidal, who I would not have described as Depressed.

Hearing voices/hullicinations telling them to kill themselves is another non-depression reason to commit suicide, and since none of us know (we can only hope) whether we will ever develop such an illness then speculating on what might make us commit suicide is slightly futile.

Also people often find strength and reason to life that they didn't realise they had when a tradgedy/injury/illness occurs which they would have previously thought they would end themselves in the event of.

In reply to puppythedog:


Not sure I agree with you there...adverse life events are a major factor alongside numerous other 'risk' indicators such as gender, age, chronic pain, poverty, abuse and many many more....etc

It's actually me, you and everyone else who are equally at risk...

In reply to abr1966: Sorry I was not specific, I meant of the diagnosed mental disorders and I was talking attempts not completed. The majority of completed suicides don't go near mental health services or are not mentally ill.

In reply to abr1966: Oh and equally at risk is not true, we are all differently at risk.

In reply to puppythedog:

Fair point!

In reply to Blizzard:

For me it would be if I ever got to the point where I could no longer get any pleasure out of life. Admittedly there have been times in my life where the pleasure has been tiny - a good meal, a hot bath - but there has never been no pleasure at all.

In reply to Blizzard: Turning the question around, what stops me dead in my tracks (pun intended) of any real thought of ending it all (however hard times might have been, and there have been a few moments over the years) has been the effect it would have on my family. I just couldn't do that to the people I love.

In reply to Blizzard:

when your part in the equation is to be acted upon rather interactive its time to go.

In reply to Blizzard:

I'm not sure I can specify what it would take to put me back on the edge of the cliff , but taking the fast exit out of here is never far from my mind , especially at this time of year .

Sometimes I think I'm only stalling until a more convenient time . But while I'm able I do try squeeze every ounce of fun out of my time as possible .

I think or hope that I'll know when my time is up , possibly when I truly believe that I've given all that I can & used all of my positive energy reserves .

As for being over sensitive , I do know that for me personally sometimes the silliest little things can have a significant affect on my mental state & emotions . Which is why I need to occupy my time with enough external physical & mental stimuli .

In reply to Blizzard:

The sad thing I find about about suicide is that those last few hours alive, are probably pretty unhappy.

The notion of ceasing to exist, doesn't worry me. The dead are evidently indifferent to their condition.

Another way to phrase the question is what does it take to make you want to live.

In reply to Blizzard: I suffer from clinical depression (seasonal affective disorder). When everything is under control I am fine both mentally and physically. So far this winter no depression or anxieties, I am using the light box a lot and have increased my medication. When things go wrong, which has happened twice in the last 5 years the illness is so bad I become suicidal. I have a lot of support from family, friends, employer and gp. Without the support I have hed in the past, I would not be here today. Acute clinical depression is terrible as you have no control over it.

In reply to ice.solo:

It depends on what you get from it I guess. Who knows?

In reply to Blizzard:

Thought about it seriously a few times. What's always stopped me is there's a few people in this world where I would really resent them outliving me. Mind you, there's a neat solution to that problem...

In reply to ice.solo:

Are you Mark Twight?

In reply to Blizzard:

Thanks for this blizzard.

I believe that suicide is the most selfish thing one could do.

It's a cry for attention.

I guarantee no one wants to commit suicide. They just want to feel cared for.

I had a friend who tried. On cough syrup. Then he tried to hang himself.

Terrible. He had hope of being a footballer.

They just need to know that someone cares. That's all.

In reply to Blizzard:
Depression - mental torture encompassing everything from "a bit low", to acute episode; to lifelong chronic illness.
Latter can be a kind of living death; a pendulum swing between hell, and enough optimism/hope of change to keep going. Some of the most vulnerable people I have known (by virtue of toxic early experiences etc) were also the toughest, most stubborn, most creative and resourceful in carrying that much pain, and difficult to guess they were even in it. I haven't found those people to be more or less impulsive, irrational, reactive or illogical than the apparently 'well'. But perhaps at perpetual risk of suicide because of the load they carry.

Sadly, help, and insight not necessarily transformative for any dose of depression, or mental ill-health.
Not all people who kill themselves are depressed, not all people who succeed intended death - an ambivalence may exist even in that moment.

Seems unfair to try reasoning whether suicide an irrational, appropriate or proportional response to anyone's situation.
For that person, in that moment, combined with (e.g an impulsive personality), then perhaps yes, even if what they endured was "only" the "bit low" version of depression. Perhaps pre-existing depression not even a factor.
Maybe one 'shaming' event (telephone call) is all it takes to switch on a massive spiral of lifelong shameful existence, and the complete felt sense of vile prior experiences; circumventing & overwhelming their ability to cope.

A mile in someone else's shoes etc seems the appropriate response to anything you've not experienced yourself, or may have responded to differently.

In reply to Blizzard:
Suicide doesn't change the inevitable result - only the timing !

In reply to Ava Adore:
Too true Ava - as my brother once said " I just think of the next bacon sandwich " !

In reply to MrW:


I think it's selfish to expect those around you to continue living for *your* sake, no matter how horrible their life may be.

If, as it is so common to say, believe everyone should live their life as they see fit, then in order to be consistent we should accept that they also have the choice to rot in the ground.


Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. Lots of actions can be cry for attentions. All the way from doing your hair in the morning to cheating on your partner.


You generalize about a million people per year, a million unique situations? I call bullshit.


That's unfortunate. Part of me wonders how you fail at hanging yourself, cough syrup sounds inherently unreliable. Perhaps your friends acts were a cry for help, but that doesn't mean all people are like your friend.


Curiously, I recall one study revealed that surviving a suicide attempt leads to a higher average income than those who never attempted suicide. The authors suggested it may be that they were more likely to engage in risk taking behaviour, which can be quite profitable.


That's a nice thought, and it would be nice for us to care about those we interact with. While I disagree with your logic, I agree with your final sentiment.

In reply to MrW:

Fundamentally disagree with your post. No time to go into the myriad reasons you're simply wrong as have to go to work.

Plenty of people who feel cared for commit suicide every day.

One mate of mine who jumped off a tower block was of the view that the world was a place sufficiently nasty and unpleasant that he didn't want to participate any more.

Writing off suicides as "selfish" and "a cry for attention" is trivialising peoples motives, thoughts, and lives, and speaks more that the person writing such comments not only doesn't understand, but doesn't even want to try and understand.

In reply to MrW:

What a ridiculous post, do you honestly believe there is nothing more selfish than suicide? Burglary, murder, rape? I'm not saying suicide isn't selfish (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the particular case) but lets face it, what isn't? Most of our actions are ultimately selfish, it's just human nature. We don't decide to go for a particular career to make someone else happy, we don't get married because we think we're doing a good deed by allowing someone to marry us. We do these things because we think we will benefit from them. There is no benefit from suicide, unfortunately it's often the case that suicide causes trouble for others but there are easily more selfish things to do. I understand that some suicides leave huge problems for the people left behind but that's circumstantial, if you aren't leaving kids or family behind then there's nothing particularly selfish about, for example, jumping into a volcano and leaving all your estate to charity. Like everything, suicide can have selfish elements but unless you think you're death would bring huge amounts of pain to the world then selfishness isn't a necessary condition of suicide.

You say that suicide is selfish, then in the next breath say that you guarantee no one wants to do it? How can you selfishly do something you don't want to do? I agree no one grows up thinking "I really want to commit suicide when I'm older" and most people want to feel cared for. To think that the thousands of people who successfully killed themselves this year were only doing so because no one cared shows a complete lack of understanding of the nature of depression.

Explain how killing yourself is a cry for help and a way to feel cared for. Often people of a suicidal nature are well aware that people care for them, it's about not wanting to live not not feeling cared for. Unless you're only purpose is life is to feel cared for of course; I imagine for most feeling cared for is a pleasant aside to their "purpose in life" though and not the thing that makes them want to live. Although it's quite hard to be cared for when you're dead. A cry for help might be taking too many paracetamols then turning up at A & E, shooting yourself in the head or jumping off a bridge is a really bad way to get people to care for you because, by the nature of suicide, you'll be dead.

In reply to MrW:

Might be worth spending a little time reading up on things like clinical depression, and real life stories of people who have contemplated / attempted suicide to get a more rounded understanding of the subject.

In reply to needvert:

What if you're only 5 years old?

E

In reply to MrW:

With respect, this is untrue. Some aspects of what you say may (possibly) be true in some cases, but many victims are loved, cared for and wept over for many years both before and after their death. I speak from experience. Please be careful making such broad and simplistic statements on such serious subjects..

In reply to Blizzard: Years ago, I was accused of something I had never done, immoral but not illegal. It nearly cost me my family life, but I lost my sense of purpose, belief and as time has now proved all my circle of friends from before that time. Throughout, it felt like there was no reason to go on, and there was this constant narrative in my thinking to end it all, although I never admitted that to anyone then.

I should add that my mother who suffered a major breakdown after her marriage broke up almost daily asked to die for many years (all the 15 that I lived with her), it was just the background to my formulative years.

Finding new friends and recovering our family life certainly stopped the narrative and it was never in the public eye, but I can appreciate how there can be times when there is nothing left to live for.

Both my mother and I are now in much better places, because we both found a new life to live for.

My heart goes out to the Nurse and her Family, given that the radio station had the chance not to broadcast did they not take it? I've never liked the idea of prank calls against unknown people.

In reply to Enty:

I can only speak for myself, but if me being an orphan was an outcome of ending some amount of suffering, I'm ok with that.

What that amount of suffering is a complicated question.

In reply to Blizzard:

London transport gets me wanting to top myself on a regular basis...

Seriously though. No, never. Most people in this country don't realize how good they have it when compared to the world's majority.

Besides, I'm basically an optimist and try to see the opportunity in every situation.

In reply to MrW:
What a ridiculous post!!

So the person who commits suicide because the voices and "people" are telling them that if they don't that x, y. or z person will be killed is selfish? Clearly they are insane, irrational, very ill and in desperated need of medical attention, but I would say that in that case where they truly believe there hullicinations and irrational thoughts that suicide is quite possibly the most selfless thing that person can do. Beofre I get any come back do not read that as 'should' do!!!


Delibrate Self Harm is a cry for attention. It is also an entirly seperate entity. Suicide is a pretty poor cry for attention since you will be dead when that attention arrives...Retard!!!


Since there are a whole number of reasons for commiting suicide then that is a very sweeping statment. The elderly person who has a loving family but has lost the love of there life, there spouse of more than half a century recently and simply can't life without them, is not doing it just because they want to feel cared for.


Please don't try talking to this friend on this subject, if this email is the basis of your advice.

In reply to needvert:

It's a tricky one. It makes me wonder what we don't know about the lady involved in the phone prank and the hospital where she worked. To leave two daughters her life must have been a living hell. All over a phone prank???

E

In reply to Tall Clare:

Wait till/if The Mormons get their hands on you, they are not as easy to get rid of as the JW's.

In reply to Enty:

It surely can't possibly be just the phone prank, there has to have been other issues.

In reply to Blizzard: Suicide's the last thing I'd do

In reply to Sarah Finney:

Meant to write ...Some forms of DSH can be a cry for attention....

In reply to Blizzard: Suicide is one of those things that I struggle to understand, and when you think about the whole concept rationally, most would say they could never do it. I know 2 people that have killed themselves, one I used to serve with. We all thought he was on the mend after fighting mental illness for a very long time, but he ended his life in dramatic circumstances. Its these people I also think about on Remembrance day, and not just the ones that have lost their lives on the battlefield.

In reply to Al Evans:

Found saying I was a Buddhist got two people with leaflets to go away when I was chilling next to a river in Endcliffe park, I didn't want to be rude to them, just to be left in peace again.

I was a formerly a deputy director at Samaritans (and listening volunteer prior to this) so as such I suppose you could say I'm quite experienced in all things suicide, self harm and emotional despair (though by no means an 'expert').

It's important to remember that reasons behind suicide aren't always as black and white as one single problem or incident. Often its an accumulation of smaller issues but with no real outlet. Also its not always a result of depression or mental health issues, someone who had a bad childhood, made redundant or been divorced are just as likely to be 'at risk'

Relating this to the nurse who was mentioned by the OP. It's impossible for anyone to know what had happened previously in her life and it would be unfair to try to 'analyze' this. I think what's important is for us to respect her and her family.

In reply to SAF: DSH is not always a cry for attention, though of course it can be. There some interesting literature about whether Suicide and Self harm are related. There was a brilliant book by Phil Barker suggesting that it is on a spectrum with self harm being demonstrative of suicidiality.


Regarding the other person's comment about suicide which has been ridiculed on here I also disagree with you very strongly.