In reply to Howard J:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
> As I think the essence of climbing is leading I find the idea of a second never leading a bit odd.
>
> But that's just your opinion - she apparently takes a different view. People get different things from climbing. For some it may be the excitement and challenge of leading, but she apparently takes sufficient satisfaction from seconding.
That's right, that's why I said 'I think ...'
>
> Personally, I don't 'get' indoor climbing or bouldering - I can see that they have training benefits but to me they're not 'proper' climbing. However there are plenty of people who take these activities very seriously.
For me climbing has a core meaning, that goes right back to childhood tree climbing and early bouldering, without a rope in sight.
>
> I'd say you cease to be a beginner when you are no longer a liability to your companions and can take responsibility for yourself.
Yes, not bad, but i think it has to be expressed a bit more strongly and positively than that, when you're talking about a climbing team, or even a bunch of hill walkers. You have to not only not be a liability, but also able to help the rest of the team if they're in trouble. This is more than simply 'taking responsibility for yourself'.