/ UKIP now third biggest party?

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The Lemming - on 16 Dec 2012
Has the political landscape changed or is this the result of voter apathy?
Cú Chullain - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:
> Has the political landscape changed or is this the result of voter apathy?

Or maybe people are gravitating towards a party that takes their concerns seriously rather then just labeling them as closet racists and 'Little Englanders' when they dare to criticize the UKs existing relationship with the EU or immigration policy.
dissonance - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

well since it isnt voting time it cant be the latter.
While they have had a fairly significant increase the most significant change seems to be the implosion of the lib dems.
verygneiss - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

Despite their name, I think they're a predominately English party. They don't seem to have any real presence north of the border. Maybe middle-England is feeling unrepresented?
wynaptomos - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to verygneiss:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Despite their name, I think they're a predominately English party. They don't seem to have any real presence north of the border. Maybe middle-England is feeling unrepresented?

South of the border is not necessarily England.........

while we are on the subject, I basically agree that UKIP is basically an English party, as far as I can see they are also irrelevant in Wales.
EeeByGum - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Cú Chullain:

> Or maybe people are gravitating towards a party that takes their concerns seriously rather then just labeling them as closet racists and 'Little Englanders' when they dare to criticize the UKs existing relationship with the EU or immigration policy.

I would say that some people are gravitating towards UKIP because they are not a centrist party. For my liking though, they are a bit extreme. If you forget Europe and immigration, if you listen to their rhetoric on crime, you might believe that there are gangs of feral kids on every street corner and that it is not possible to walk on the streets at all without being murdered.
FrankBooth - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:
I think that UKIP are to the UK what the Tea Party is to the US. Five years of recession and political uncertainty in Europe has fuelled the insecurity upon with parties like UKIP thrive.


They are the Daily Mail party - the embodiment of cynicism and Little England.
silhouette - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:

> They are the Daily Mail party - the embodiment of cynicism and Little England.

That's no use for my wink bingo though is it? I've already ticked "Little England". I'm looking for "xenophobic" or "clinging to the Empire" and then I'll have a line of cliches. Thanks for "Daily Mail" though.
Al Evans on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:

> They are the Daily Mail party - the embodiment of cynicism and Little England.

And hatred of anything that does not fall into their way of thinking.
dissonance - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:

> I think that UKIP are to the UK what the Tea Party is to the US.

i aint a fan of UKIP but i think comparing them to the Tea Party lot is a tad unfair.
Dauphin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

More a result of political apathy - they hark back to swinging dick thatcherism of 30 years since ago than the mild mannered centrist PPE clones of today. They will force the main parties to have the referrendum on EU membership and then self distruct. Hopefully. Fairly normal to have more 'extreme' parties doing well in times like these - even Miliband is having to fess up to New Labours immigration policy and its effect on education & healthcare.

D
Mike Stretford - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming: Good news for Labour, they split the right of centre vote (about time, the left of centre has been split for years). Makes more of a mockery of our electoral systemn..... not fit for purpose!
seankenny - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Dauphin:
> even Miliband is having to fess up to New Labours immigration policy and its effect on education & healthcare.

Too many Muslims mean British children won't be able to use the apostrophe properly. The shame of it all.

JSA - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to seankenny:
> (In reply to Dauphin)
> [...]
>
> Too many Muslims mean British children won't be able to use the apostrophe properly. The shame of it all.

Eh?
SAF - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming: 3rd biggest party in the UK, and yet members aren't deemed fit to be foster parents

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20517514

There's democracy for you!!!
Alex Slipchuk on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming: who cares
cander - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:

How could anyone vote for that awful man who leads them ... yuck
Dauphin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to cander:

So national politics is about personalities then is it? Jesus what incredible choice we have...three grey men.

I find his iconoclastic teasing quite amusing, very erudite, well read. Problem with libertarians is they usually talk the good talk for individual liberty and are quite happy unleash corporate slavery on us all because it works for their philosophic agenda. And like most politicians they are normally on the payroll of someone.

D
dissonance - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to SAF:
> (In reply to The Lemming) 3rd biggest party in the UK, and yet members aren't deemed fit to be foster parents

i wonder if people will ever stop misrepresenting this.
They were considered unsuitable for certain children, namely the children of migrants. Now you can argue the rights and wrongs of that but to generalise it out is simply wrong.
seankenny - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to JSA:

Re-read it again, slowly.
Then repeat to yourself "I shall not let pedants wind me up."
Cuthbert on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

England is moving to the right and therefore right wing parties get more votes.
SAF - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to dissonance:
> (In reply to SAF)
> [...]
>
> i wonder if people will ever stop misrepresenting this.
> They were considered unsuitable for certain children, namely the children of migrants. Now you can argue the rights and wrongs of that but to generalise it out is simply wrong.

But this consideration was based on their decision to follow the 3rd biggest political party in a democratic country.

Clearly the fact that they were willing to give so much of there time and themselves to look after these 'immigrant' children who for whatever reason could not be looked after by their own families should have been the important factor in whether they were suitable or not

Effectively this decision is saying that they, and a significant number of other british citizins decision to support a legitimate political party within a democracy is wrong. Personally I wouldn't vote UKIP but I wouldn't expect the 'X' I put on my ballot paper to be able to effect my career prospects or anything else.
Dauphin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

That is one way of looking at it - however the Conservative party had to spend a fortune on a P.R. machine to make them look more fluffy & having a social conscience - why else pick Cameron as the leader?

I would agree that the U.K. has moved backwards into Authoritarianism in the last 30 years, the soviet socialist republics of Scotland & Wales haven't escaped this even if you vote for parties that want to buy the electorate so you can feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Same centrist (large goverment), more f**kin rules agenda.

D

Cuthbert on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Dauphin:

Nah, it's to do with being right wing.
Dauphin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

I was hoping a Independent Scotland wouldn't tie itself up within the EU (my political sympathies lie left ward BTW). Seems you are going to vote for more of the same. How ironic.

D

Bruce Hooker - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Dauphin)
>
> Nah, it's to do with being right wing.

Could be worse though, at least they are not Nationalists.... apart from the few who vote BNP.
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> England is moving to the right and therefore right wing parties get more votes.

The opinion polls would suggest you're wrong, though I know that doesn't play to a Nationalist meta-narrative about divergent national characters. It's hard to spot any rightwards movement at all in England - probably the reverse if anything. It's just that the previously monolithic right-wing bloc seems to be fragmenting, for whatever reasons, and UKIP is currently prospering from a lot of disaffected ex-Tories.

Cuthbert on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

I haven't actually looked at the polls. Which is bigger? Tories + UKIP + BNP or Labour + Lib Dems.

There clearly is a divergence. A quick look at MPs tells you that.
Trangia - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
> I think that UKIP are to the UK what the Tea Party is to

I wonder why I expected your statement was going to end with

...Alice?
Bruce Hooker - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

> Which is bigger? Tories + UKIP + BNP or Labour + Lib Dems

Why do you put the Lib Dems with Labour? At present they're in a coalition government with the tories, clarifying to all who doubted it their fundamental right wing nature. So it's more a three cornered situation Tory + lib dems (parliamentary right), UKIP + BNP (far right nationalist), and Labour (centre left - on paper anyway). A bit like the situation in many continental European countries.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Mike Stretford - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> [...]
>
> Why do you put the Lib Dems with Labour? At present they're in a coalition government with the tories, clarifying to all who doubted it their fundamental right wing nature.

Nope, it was the only viable coallition. Like Blair and Brown they have been dissapointing in power but people were voting for something else.

stroppygob - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming: Hopefully the rise of the UKIP will encourage the Tories to take a tougher stance on Europe.
stroppygob - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to FrankBooth:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
> I think that UKIP are to the UK what the Tea Party is to the US. Five years of recession and political uncertainty in Europe has fuelled the insecurity upon with parties like UKIP thrive.
>
> They are the Daily Mail party - the embodiment of cynicism and Little England.


Well while the left has nothing to offer in debate other than trite unsubstantiated cliché and insult, they will continue to rise. More power to their elbow I say.

Next time could you try to be even more banal? (You could try adding a BNP reference, that may help.)
Bruce Hooker - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Papillon:

> but people were voting for something else.

Only people who hadn't bothered to concern themselves with the history of the party :-)
In reply to Saor Alba: Current polls show something like:

Con 30% UKIP 10% LibDem 10% Lab 40%, so if you count LibDem as centre/left (a big if - their voters might be, but the party sure ain't) then the maths are clear.

A quick look at MPs in industrial northern England or inner London versus those in the Home Counties will give you as stark a left/right contrast as anything between Scotland and RUK. What do you read into that? For me it suggests that the idea that left-leaning social democracy is somehow hardwired into the Scottish national psyche but not in England's is simply bogus.

stp - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming:

Might be a result of disillusion with the Lib Dems after they handed the election over to the tories.
Cuthbert on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

This is what I read into it: Tory MPs in Scotland = 1. UKIP MPs, MSPs, Councillors (I think) = 0.

Conclusion = there is not much support for right wing parties in Scotland.
jonnie3430 - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com)

> Conclusion = there is not much support for right wing parties in Scotland.

I think there are a fair few SNP supporters though, so there is a bit of a right wing presence.
jonnie3430 - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com)
>
Conclusion = Sour Alba is an Ostrich.
Cuthbert on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

I dont and there is no evidence of that either in policy or rhetoric.
Dirk Didler - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> Could be worse though, at least they are not Nationalists.... apart from the few who vote BNP.

Yawn.
Bruce Hooker - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

> Conclusion = there is not much support for right wing parties in Scotland

But surely you all of all people wouldn't deny that there's a fair bit of support for the SNP in Scotland?

As a Nationalist party you'd have a job to persuade people that a Nationalist party can really be on the left, whatever the window-dressing might pretend, especially as a look at the electoral results in Scotland since oil came along and the Nationalists grew comes from transfer of Tory votes to Nationalist. The Tories didn't just go puff! and disappear, they voted SNP against Labour. Much the same as the UKIP, another nationalist party, comes from a swing to a certain sort of right in England.

Anyway, whatever we may surmise, the result of a growth of the UKIP is good news for Labour, by splitting the right wing vote - just as in France the growth of the National Front has helped the Socialist left.
Bruce Hooker - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Dirk Didler:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> [...]
>
> Yawn.

That's what they said in the 30s in Germany! We shouldn't dramatise but the rise of nationalism is never a healthy sign.

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: I see it as good news for the country and our politics in the long term.

As I see it, UKIP will split the Tory vote, but due to the FPTP system, they will prob get very few, if any seats in parliament. Lib Dems crushed and Labour walk into power next election.

This will result in the Tories having to completely restructure the party away from the centrist stance to a more libertarian stance favoured by the long term Tory supporter. I think it will also bring the EU referendum into focus.

This will hopefully give us, the voting public a broad spectrum of political options rather than the "all blurred into one" choice we have now.
dissonance - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

> Conclusion = there is not much support for right wing parties in Scotland.

we could look at the % votes cast instead.
16.7% for tories and 0.3 for UKIP for example.

Not overly lacking in support by any standards (well the tories).
tony on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Game of Conkers:
>
> This will result in the Tories having to completely restructure the party away from the centrist stance to a more libertarian stance favoured by the long term Tory supporter.

You reckon? You don't think there's a chance the Tories will run around like headless chickens for a few year like the last time they lost an election and elect someone eminently useless as party leader?
Doug on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: I know its been pointed out to you many times but the SNP is considered by practically everyone as left of centre, regardless of what you (& you alone) keep saying
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to tony: Of course there's a chance, but last time there wasn't a UKIP party that was being taken seriously. That will be the differentiator in my view.
Bruce Hooker - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Doug:

'Tis not I alone, but that depends which web sites you read, or in my case which members of the family I speak to, the Labour ones or the Tartan Tories (their words) ones.

A left wing party cannot, nearly by definition, be a Nationalist party at heart. Universalism and empathy for all people, no matter where they live, is a fundamental part of what being left-wing means, at least in my opinion. If you listen to Marine Le Pen, as you end up doing quite a lot in France at present, she is a Nationalist too but if you took her policies at face value she sounds left wing. Nationalists always function this way... at first.

If they didn't they would call themselves something else and wouldn't wave national flags and blame all their ills on other people... it's the nature of the beast.
Dirk Didler - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: The price of peace is eternal vigilance? every and all people's have the right to self determination Bruce, to compare Scottish nationalism to 30's german national socialism is taking it a bit far though.
Bruce Hooker - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Dirk Didler:

What about Biafra?
dissonance - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> A left wing party cannot, nearly by definition, be a Nationalist party at heart. Universalism and empathy for all people, no matter where they live, is a fundamental part of what being left-wing means, at least in my opinion.

so if a party aim was to separate from one, small, union and specifically be part of a larger one. Would that count as left-wing enough for you?
Steve2012 - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to The Lemming: just a little heads up, look up operation Mayhem and see what is going to happen in the next few days. trust me when i say that Shit is gonna hit the fan when it takes off. it wouldnt suprise me if riots kick off or banks and politicians get arrested over the revelations due to come out of it. it will be like wikileaks on steroids as it is said on comp tech sites. and to be honest, those that do things that rob the public deserve everything they get.
Ridge - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Steve2012:
I'm sure the powers that be are bricking it...
tony on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Steve2012:
> (In reply to The Lemming) just a little heads up, look up operation Mayhem and see what is going to happen in the next few days.

I just looked up Operation Mayhem. The first couple of searches were about OFSTED inspections of a leisure centre in Rugby. Is that such a terrible thing?
dissonance - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to tony:

> I just looked up Operation Mayhem. The first couple of searches were about OFSTED inspections of a leisure centre in Rugby. Is that such a terrible thing?

the first rule about OFSTED inspections is you do not talk about them.
tony on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to dissonance:

Damn! That's me busted then.

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