In reply to Bruce Hooker:
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> That's a pretty amazing jump of logic! Also I would dispute the 60% christian figure, maybe in terms of culture but the majority are not religious at all... Do you know many people who believe in god? I don't.
I don't think you read my whole post. I agree with you, these 60% aren't really religious, they have a sentimental attachment to the church and vague notions about what Christianity means.
> Clearly you cannot understand why people would be against same sex marriages, maybe that's something you could try and look into yourself?
As in reply to Jimbo, I can understand lots of reasons but I become stumped when I try to marry them (excuse that) with support for equal rights for gays. I think you're being coy in not setting them out, because you think I'll be offended by them. I promise, I'll only be offended if they are inconsistent with equal rights for gays.
> Personally I think many people simply haven't really thought about it all, like me they are not obsessed by the subject so when asked some reply "ok" others say "not really", apparently on a more or less random basis. However when they feel they are being pushed a bit too hard they may react negatively, again without being particularly clear - "Why marriage when civil union exists?", seems a fairly logical reaction, and according to the web site is fairly widespread.
I'd agree with that, and as I've said I think it would be better if gay people stopped accepting religion, rather than trying to get religion to accept gays. As such, I don't think gay marriage is important (although I do think it's interesting), but I certainly don't support the idea that a church who wants to marry a gay couple should be banned from doing so in law. I'm intrigued by this position, especially where it's claimed to be not religious, nor homophobic.
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> On further pushing by militant elements without any clear answer to this question, some may actually start thinking about why marriage exists in nearly all societies, what it's purpose is and so on, others may say"Sod this!" and react against. I doubt that religion has much to do with it outside the small minority of religious people, possibly 10 to 20% maximum, all religions included. It's a convenient scapegoat though which avoids examining the whole issue in a calm, objective way.
The clear answer is pretty simple and I'm surprised you find it so easy to ignore. If you believe that gay people should be allowed the same rights as everyone else, then under law, churches who want to should be allowed to marry gay people. There's no more to it than that.
As for religion being used as a scapegoat, I'm saying that religious conviction is (daft but) all well and good as far as what you want to do within your church. But I'm calling on pseudo-religious sentimentality about church weddings, couple with a conservative view of the past as a time before all this equal rights stuff came along when things were pure and good (and most people were racist), as an explanation for the view sizable chunk of people opposing gay marriage. I'm quite happy to be shown to be wrong about what these people think. They could well have a secular, rational, non-sentimental view and be able to show that there will be negative social outcomes from allowing churches that want to marry a tiny handful of gay people. But it is not my job to formulate that argument, because I don't believe it, and frankly I can't!