UKC

Just read following from: http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/ . The para of interest is : "Clearly, taking advantage of the shock-absorbing capability of the rope by using it to tie directly into anchors as opposed to using a sling, will reduce the chances of dramatically shock-loading the anchors. If you do use slings then ensuring there is no slack in the system is paramount".

Having newly returned to climbing after a break of 20 years I am getting my climbing rack together. I am thinking I should now put carabiners on every Nut and Cam and attach directly to rope, and largely ignore the Quickdraws.

Any major faults with my thinking ??

In reply to Blackbirdnest:

horrible rope drag, rope damage from burred crabs

the first 2 that pop to mind

In reply to Blackbirdnest: This is more to do with peoples bad habbits in useing slings as fall arrest lanyards/cowstails. It is refering to a direct fall onto the sling rather than in the case of a leader fall where quickdraws are part of a system which includes the shock absorption properties of the rope.

In reply to Blackbirdnest:


Just the obvious ones of (a) carrying a huge tonnage of unneccessary carabiners and (b) having all your gear lift out/cause massive drag 'cos you haven't extended it.

Assuming your suggestion is tongue in cheek?

In reply to Blackbirdnest:


When you lead you are attached to the rope, which runs through the quickdraws, which are attached to the gear. The slings on the quickdraws do not get shock-loaded because the rope is dynamic. As long as there is something dynamic in the system it is OK to fall.

The article is advising against falling directly onto a sling, with nothing dynamic in the system. If you are going to use a sling to clip into a belay (e.g. if swapping leads with a party of more than 2 on multi-pitch) then you need to ensure there is no slack in the sling (i.e. weight the sling at all times). That's why if there's just two of you on a route and you're swinging leads you would normally just clip into the belay using the rope, that way if you slip at the belay and fall a short distance you'll still have small amount of dynamic rope in the system.

In reply to Blackbirdnest: By anchors it means the belay anchor at the top of the route that the lead-climber sets up to secure themselves so the seconder can follow.
If connecting the anchor points (e.g. nut, hex, cam etc) directly to your harness using a sling and 2 caribiners (rather than rope clipped into the sling with a caribiner and the rope tied to harness) then that means that you only have static components, there isn't anything in the system to absorb a force. Slings don't deal well with shock forces, only static ones (where they're already tight when the force is applied - no slack).
This is why, when setting up a belay anchor, you either need to attach everything to you with the rope OR make sure there is no slack.

Hope that helps!

In reply to Blackbirdnest:


As others have said, DMM are talking about direct attachment of belayer to belay with either rope or sling, you are thinking about attachment to runners which would most often include both.

All never using quickdraws for runners will do is increase rope drag and the risk of your gear being pulled out of place.

In reply to Blackbirdnest: those explanations helped greatly. I can now see the fundamental misunderstanding I have made.
Morpcat and Morgan P your considered comprehensive responses really added to my understanding. However, Thank you to everyone who responded.
Good to have a forum you feel able to ask questions.
Happy new year.

In reply to Blackbirdnest: Glad it helped! Happy new year to you too

In reply to Blackbirdnest: I would not recommend you clip the rope directly into placed gear by only a nut for the following reasons:

- Since there is little flexibility in one krab, there is a high chance that the rope will lift out the gear once you have climbed past.
- As someone already mentioned, you will experience chronic rope drag which in itself can be quite dangerous
- There is a high chance that if you fell above gear clipped like this that the krab can actually unclip itself if it gets caught in a particular way. I believe there has actually been some accidents resulting from this when it was common to clip into bolts directly with one krab

The statement you referred to relates to belaying and the caveat that should be adhered to is "If you do use slings then ensuring there is no slack in the system is paramount". I always use slings when I belay because they are quick and easy to use, but I also always ensure there is no slack. In a belay situation using rope instead of slings, you can still end up in a dodgy shockloading nightmare if there is too much slack in the system. Even if everything holds, the worst that could happen is that the belayer gets dragged over the top and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Related, I recall reading a solo leader saying to not bother extending pro as obviously rope drag isn't an issue.

Don't remember if pro was bolts or natural.

In reply to needvert: that's a total red herring. They are referring to this when climbing using a soloist. In this case the rope is payed out through a device at your waist and is fed from loops hanging from the climber, rather than being pulled after the climber through the carabiners. Ie there is no rope drag because the rope isn't being dragged in the first place.

In reply to Blackbirdnest: I think that DMM video should be shot. Its good information but it seems quite alot of people get the wrong idea from it!

In reply to Cheese Monkey: It does seem to have created a bit of misguided panic amongst some. IMO it would be difficult to replicate a fall from a stance in the way shown in the film. Your harness, your body and some friction against the rock would all go some way towards mitigating the affect. All I take from the video, and I admit to finding it quite a sobering display, is that it is unwise to climb above the anchors on static slings. With regard to the rope absorbing some of the shock. I wouldn't have thought that a couple of feet would provide much elasticity to make it a serious consideration but I am willing to be proved wrong on that.

In reply to mike kann:

Aside from the red herring part, we seem to be in total agreement on everything other than degree of verbosity.

In reply to needvert:

Rope drag is an issue for solo leaders because severe drag in the system can significantly increase fall factor by effectively making the system less dynamic. Straight ropes = soft falls.

In reply to GridNorth:

Agreed. I am always amazed by the sheer number of people who seem to turn to science, facts and figures in climbing rather than just thinking about the situation and then applying common sense.

In reply to EeeByGum:

I think UKC tends to get more than its fair share of safety doomsayers.