/ A liberal dilemma!

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Tyler - on 09 Jan 2013
A young student makes a principled stance against being electornically tagged and tracked by her school. Obviously, as woolly liberals, we support her. Uh-oh! What's this? She objects because it's a what?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20957587
mkean - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler

Well it is a good fit to the biblical concept of the mark of the beast so you can see her point, even if it is madder than a bag of squirrels.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/05/rfid_chip_boycott/
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/06/70308
http://worshippingchristian.org/rfid_mark.html
Blue Straggler - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:

Have you seen Mike Leigh's 1993 film "Naked"?
Jon Stewart - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:

Maybe she has a point. It's definitely got something to do with the devil.
Timmd on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:

Thinking about it, if religious freedom is allowed in America why shouldn't she not wear the sign of the devil, if she believes it to be so?

Amish drive horse drawn carts, and Muslims and Jews avoid pork, why draw the line at one place and not another, is what i'm thinking.

It could be argued that depending on how you look at things, she's either bonkers, or not so diffrent to other religious people.

I'm not wanting to cast aspersions on religions though, more pondering why it's seen as nuts when other things aren't.

Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:
The very idea of being electronically tagged without being under a court order is repugnant. Religious woo or not
Timmd on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:I think it is a bit.
Dauphin - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler: nice sample on the Orbs Toxygene. Fact!
Eric9Points - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
> (In reply to Tyler)
> The very idea of being electronically tagged without being under a court order is repugnant. Religious woo or not

I'd agree but apparently it only works inside the school.

I don't know why she doesn't just hide it under a desk or something once she gets in in the morning.
Timmd on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Eric9Points:I guess it's the principle because it's the sign of the devil?

Wonder if she could find legal help to justify it, because other people have religious freedoms in America?

It could be interesting.

mkean - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
The very idea of being electronically tagged without being under a court order is repugnant.

Have you been into an office in the last 20 years? I open the door with an electronic tag, I turn on the printer with an electronic tag, I use an electronic tag to 'digitally sign' documents.

If I don't have my little electronic tag I can't enter the building and wouldn't have a job. I think you'll agree that this is utterly repugnant and the European court of human rights should persue my employers for evilly giving me a job.
Mike Peacock on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Dauphin:
> (In reply to Blue Straggler) nice sample on the Orbs Toxygene. Fact!

Don't you mean SALT? Same album though...
Dauphin - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Peacock:

Yeah S.A.L.T. Think one of the twelve inches had it as intro to Toxygene though. Not quite a FACT! then.

D
Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:

> Have you been into an office in the last 20 years? I open the door with an electronic tag, I turn on the printer with an electronic tag, I use an electronic tag to 'digitally sign' documents.

Nope

>
> If I don't have my little electronic tag I can't enter the building and wouldn't have a job. I think you'll agree that this is utterly repugnant and the European court of human rights should persue my employers for evilly giving me a job.

Does your little tag follow you down the street and into the pub/shop/house? If it did then the job isn't worth it. What you describe is little different from the old "clocking on system" and is a far cry from electronic tagging.
mkean - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
The system in place in the school in question is also a far cry from electronic tagging.
dissonance - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Nope

do you have a passport?

> Does your little tag follow you down the street and into the pub/shop/house? If it did then the job isn't worth it.

Since its an id card, yes it does follow me home and occasionally into pubs and shops.
In theory they could stalk me anywhere but it would cost a fair amount and would only pick me up when i specifically carry the card eg when i know i am going into the office (otherwise it lives on the bedside table). Plus if i got wind of it i would just get a rfid blocking wallet.
mkean - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
The 'evil satanic police state tracking device' was a common or garden ID card with an RFID chip in it.

I've got one in my phone, 3 in my wallet, 1 in my security pass and one in my passport. If you've got a UK passport issued after March 2006 or had a new bank card recently then you've got at least one as well.

They are most eminently track-able and can be read by anyone with an ounce of technical ability, in fact some charming individual demonstrated a proof of concept that you could build an "American sensing bomb" by reading the chips in passports remotely.

If you don't want to be tracked then all you need to do is wrap the damn thing in bacofoil. However if you work or attend a school where it is a contractual requirement to display your ID at all times then don't go crying about it when they kick you out.
Coel Hellier - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Timmd:

> ... if religious freedom is allowed in America why shouldn't she not wear the sign of the devil, if she
> believes it to be so?

Religious freedom is not about allowing people to ignore rules that are there for genuine secular reasons. Religious freedom just means that your ability to do something cannot be restricted for a *religious* reason (for example a Protestant government cannot outlaw Catholic symbols because it dislikes Catholicism), but it can be restricted for secular reasons.

> Amish drive horse drawn carts, and Muslims and Jews avoid pork, ...

There are no secular rules prohibiting horse-drawn carts, nor secular rules requiring the consumption of pork.

Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to dissonance:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> [...]
>
> do you have a passport?

irrelevant my passport doesn't track my every move and I only need one to leave the country
>
> [...]
>
> Since its an id card, yes it does follow me home and occasionally into pubs and shops.
> In theory they could stalk me anywhere but it would cost a fair amount and would only pick me up when i specifically carry the card eg when i know i am going into the office (otherwise it lives on the bedside table). Plus if i got wind of it i would just get a rfid blocking wallet.

Exactly!

Timmd on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> [...]
>
> Religious freedom is not about allowing people to ignore rules that are there for genuine secular reasons. Religious freedom just means that your ability to do something cannot be restricted for a *religious* reason (for example a Protestant government cannot outlaw Catholic symbols because it dislikes Catholicism), but it can be restricted for secular reasons.
>
> [...]
>
> There are no secular rules prohibiting horse-drawn carts, nor secular rules requiring the consumption of pork.

Both fair points.
dissonance - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> irrelevant my passport doesn't track my every move

you sure about that? UK passports have had RFID since around 2006.

> and I only need one to leave the country

the same with an id card. You only carry it when needed. Unless i missed something in that story where the badges were being surgically attached its not the biggest civil liberty issue in the world.

Speaking of mark of the beast, one of my id cards does have the number 666 on it.
Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> The 'evil satanic police state tracking device' was a common or garden ID card with an RFID chip in it.

The poster said "tracking device" by which I would conclude that it was being used to actively track someone

>
> I've got one in my phone, 3 in my wallet, 1 in my security pass and one in my passport. If you've got a UK passport issued after March 2006 or had a new bank card recently then you've got at least one as well.

I have no doubt that I have several "trackable" devices about my person but they are not being used to curb my freedom. At least up until the point I get arrested for going in the "wrong" pub.

>
> They are most eminently track-able and can be read by anyone with an ounce of technical ability, in fact some charming individual demonstrated a proof of concept that you could build an "American sensing bomb" by reading the chips in passports remotely.
>
> If you don't want to be tracked then all you need to do is wrap the damn thing in bacofoil.

sounds like a plan.

>However if you work or attend a school where it is a contractual requirement to display your ID at all times then don't go crying about it when they kick you out.

I would not work in any institution where I felt I was going to get sacked for going down the wrong corridor or spending 2 mins too long in the loo or making too many passes of the coffee machine.
If I wanted to be a rat in a maze I'd volunteer to be a guinea pig in a lab

stroppygob - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler: Land of the free eh?
Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Timmd)
>
> [...]
>
> Religious freedom is not about allowing people to ignore rules that are there for genuine secular reasons.

That is a very good point Coel. How does that square with Sikhs, turbans and crash helmets? Or for instance the allowing of burkas in places where hoodies or other face covering is banned?
Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> The system in place in the school in question is also a far cry from electronic tagging.

The badges reveal each student's location on their campus, giving the district more precise information on attendance. I can see their reasons but it is still Big Brother and sounds very much like electronic tagging to me
Mark Warnett - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:

She's confusing her tag with the 7c DWS at Lulworth. Honk!
mkean - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
What you've done here is commonly called "jumping to a conclusion based on a total lack of facts".

It is an ID card, they use them to take a register at the start of lessons. The only difference between this and a perfectly normal register is that it is automated which saves time and reduces errors. It is not infringing her human rights or anything else.
mkean - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Big Brother and sounds very much like electronic tagging to me

May I suggest then that you revise your expectations about electronic tagging. While you are doing this I would suggest you investigate the difference between "capability" and "action", as at no point has anyone except from you suggested timed toilet stops or any other such rubbish.
Toby S - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:

From: http://tinyurl.com/c5od4bk

"THREE GOALS

Increase student safety and security. Our students' parents expect that we always know where their children are in our schools.

Increase attendance. Through more efficient attendance management, schools can generate additional revenues by identifying students who are not in their seats during roll call but who are in the school and locate them. (Increased attendance = increased state revenues)

Provide multi-purpose "Smart" Student ID card. The Student ID will provide access to the library and cafeteria, serve as a photo ID, and allow for the purchase of tickets to schools' extracurricular activities. Other uses will be rolled out during the pilot program"

So it does track their movements, something that is also stated in the Beeb link.
Coel Hellier - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> That is a very good point Coel. How does that square with Sikhs, turbans and crash helmets?

The Sikh/turban/helmet case is one of religious privilege (giving a religious person *more* rights than a secular person would have) not a case of religious freedom (ensuring that a religious person is not treated *less* favourably).

For that reason I'd prefer that, if the law allows someone to wear a turban rather than a motorcycle helmet, then anyone should be allowed that alternative, not just Sikhs. However, this particular issue is perhaps not the most important of rallying causes.

> Or for instance the allowing of burkas in places where hoodies or other face covering is banned?

I don't see that that should be allowed. If face covering is not allowed for good secular reasons (e.g. airport security screening), then I don't see why a religiously-motivated face covering should get special treatment.

Indeed, I wrote a whole blog post on this topic, motivated by a discussion I had here with our very own TobyA ;-)

http://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/christians-dont-understand-religious-freedom/
Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:
Merely quoting the article
Duncan Bourne - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:
Ah you say it is rubbish but isn't that merely your own interpretation? No body else may have mentioned it but that is no reason to think that it isn't true. In fact I know for a fact that such "rubbish" does take place so there you go. Really you have no more idea than I have on how the tags are used. For myself I prefer to take a cynical approach I see no particular reason to revise that view.
JoshOvki on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:

She was offered a tag that didn't have the chip in but turned it down. Sounds like the school (Science and Engineering Academy) was being perfectly reasonable.
winhill - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> What you've done here is commonly called "jumping to a conclusion based on a total lack of facts".
>
> It is an ID card, they use them to take a register at the start of lessons. The only difference between this and a perfectly normal register is that it is automated which saves time and reduces errors. It is not infringing her human rights or anything else.
What's to stop the kids from pinning the badges onto the school geek and then bunking off, making it easier to skive?
winhill - on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to JoshOvki:
> (In reply to Tyler)
>
> She was offered a tag that didn't have the chip in but turned it down. Sounds like the school (Science and Engineering Academy) was being perfectly reasonable.

It's not clear from the reports if the problem was the RFID chip or the barcode that also seems to accompany the badge, I have seen a few nutty Christians quote this regarding barcodes:

Revelation 13:16-18 (King James Version)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great , rich and poor , free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand , or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell , save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
JoshOvki on 09 Jan 2013
In reply to winhill:
> (In reply to JoshOvki)

> 16 And he causeth all, both small and great , rich and poor , free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand , or in their foreheads:

I didn't realise they where stapling the cards to them!
Duncan Bourne - on 10 Jan 2013
In reply to winhill:
> (In reply to mkean)
> [...]
> What's to stop the kids from pinning the badges onto the school geek and then bunking off, making it easier to skive?

That's what I would do
Bimble on 10 Jan 2013
In reply to Tyler:

Stick the badge in the microwave for a few seconds, take it out, pin it back on. RFID is now rendered useless (you do still get a shiny badge though)

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