/ "Winter" skills in Sneachda

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Petarghh - on 11 Jan 2013
Should instructors be paid to teach these kinds of ethics to new winter climbers ?

http://postimage.org/image/jqsqdab1h/

Cheers.
Taurig - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

Top roping AND dry tooling on UKC?! Sweet Jesus man, what have you done?!
Petarghh - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Taurig: I thought it might cause a stir ! I think its pretty poor for a paid instructor to be doing this kind of thing, couldn't they have just gone and tooled at the lodge? or played on the small amount of remaining snow ?
The Grist - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Petarghh: When did you take the photo? I enjoy dry tooling but I think that a line has to be drawn and this is the wrong side of that line.
Petarghh - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to The Grist: The photo isn't mine, I found it on facebook and used the image hosting to hide the identity of the person who took it. I think it was taken about 4 or 5 days ago though.
KellyKettle - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to The Grist:
> (In reply to Petarghh)I enjoy dry tooling but I think that a line has to be drawn and this is the wrong side of that line.

Not being familiar with the area, what is it that puts it over the line in your opinion?

FWIW, I'd rather go tooling on vertical or overhanging terrain, it makes for much better training; especially if you have the greater lattitude to push yourself that comes with being on top rope.

The Grist - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to KellyKettle: There are dedicated dry tooling areas. If the guides wanted them to practise dry tooling there are venues for it. They could have driven an hour and gone to Newtyle Quarry or gone to a wall which allows it. The cliffs of Scotland are not dry tooling arenas.

The condition of the rock in the photo shows no rime or ice. They may as well be using their hands and climbing in boots.

I am going up tomorrow hoping to do fall out corner but I would not get on it if there was no white stuff on the route.
Milesy - on 11 Jan 2013
Popcorn. Check.
Revels. Check.
Kid Spatula - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

Yeah cos rime TOTALLY protects the rock from scratches. I mean a tiny bit of frozen snow is much more resilient than a pick isn't it?
Ramblin dave - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:
So IIRC the procedure here is
* about 70 posts of people slating the instructor, climbers, gear mags, "sponsored heroes", "convenience climbing", youth of today, Uncle Tom Cobleigh et al
* instructor in question weighs in explaining that this picture shows the one bit of the route with no snow, everything else was plastered, thick hard neve just out of shot etc
* about 40 posts sticking up for the instructor, complaining about how everyone's too quick to judge, armchair mountaineers etc
* someone else weighs in saying that they were there that day and there was no snow on anything anywhere at all it might as well have been june etc
* more abuse
* repeat ad nauseum.

Have I missed anything? The bit about how the bashers just don't understand cutting-edge modern mixed climbing probably won't surface this time because it's on a top rope and hence probably not cutting edge.
Wingnut - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Yes, pretty much.

<*settles back in chair*>
<*opens crisps*>
<*opens beer*>
Jamie B - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> Should instructors be paid to teach these kinds of ethics to new winter climbers ?

They're unlikely to want to do it for free.

Seems like a storm in a teacup to me. I doubt very much if the whole day will have been devoted to dry-tooling, and the other skills taught will have required a winter environment. Given that this is an otherwise unused micro-outcrop down and left from the main Fiacaill Buttress, it seems like an entirely appropriate place to teach mixed-climbing skills on a day that doesn't look too inspiring for getting on a route.

Most instructors, myself included, are active winter climbers and care passionately about the ethics and traditions of what is our passion as well as our profession. I imagine that anyone setting up something as pictured will have had a good chat about the context of this sort of dry-tooling, and where it is and is not appropriate.

Jamie B - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> Couldn't they have just gone and tooled at the Lodge?

How do you know it was a Lodge group? Not sure if those facilities are available to other providers?
KellyKettle - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to The Grist:
> (In reply to KellyKettle) The cliffs of Scotland are not dry tooling arenas.

Guess I missed that memo... I'll bear it in mind so I don't turn up floating in the middle of loch lochy with a terrodactyl between my shoulderblades!
edinburgh_man on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Jamie,

On the whole I do agree with what your saying here.

The only problem that concerns me with this approach, is that it doesn't set a good precedent (around an already controversial topic) in the minds of people who are new to Scottish Winter climbing (and therefore perhaps unaware of the issues regarding what's in / out of condition).

Perhaps Newtyle would have been a better choice if the Lodge facilities were unavailable.
The Grist - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to KellyKettle: There again maybe I am wrong. Perhaps any cliff in Scotland is fair game in Winter? Regardless of lack of snow / ice and the temperature. I climb lot in the Lakes and I don't think this practise would be acceptable in the lakes. Maybe in Scotland it is ok? Fine by me as I like dry tooling. Why not just go the next step and bolt the cliffs?
Milesy - on 11 Jan 2013
Robert Durran - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to 7bforever:
> (In reply to Jamie Bankhead)
> Perhaps Newtyle would have been a better choice if the Lodge facilities were unavailable.

I have tried but failed to get upset by this. I can't really come up with any rational reason to do so.
That sort of thing would certainly do a lot more to improve my own skills than hooking picks and monos into manufactured slots at Newtyle.

Robert Durran - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to The Grist:
> Maybe in Scotland it is ok? Fine by me as I like dry tooling. Why not just go the next step and bolt the cliffs?

What on earth is the connection/progression between bolting and dry tooling?

paul-1970 - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to The Grist)
> [...]
>
> What on earth is the connection/progression between bolting and dry tooling?

We're doing well with this thread. We've had top-roping, bolting, ethics, dry tooling and a picture of the CIC hut displayed.

I'm just hoping someone mentions Bear Ghrylls or puts up a link to that bloke climbing the stack.
The Grist - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: None really..............just bored at work given it is friday afternoon and have nothing better to do. I take it back. Trad is definately way more fun.
Jamie B - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to paul-1970:

> We're doing well with this thread. We've had top-roping, bolting, ethics, dry tooling and a picture of the CIC hut displayed.

Can I add to this all-encompassing sadness by being the first to point out that the picture actually depicts bottom-roping, as the belayers are not at the top of the crag. Thanks.

Cuthbert on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

If an instructor uses "snekta" they should be bottom roped. Anyone done the route "Fankled Fannies"?
TeeBee on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Milesy:

For what it's worth, they weren't actually on the Douglas Boulder itself, they were on one of the crag bands underneath.
Toby S - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Saor Alba:

When you say Bottom Roped do you mean 'Keel Hauled'. Can you in fact keel haul in the Cairngorms...?
davy_boy - on 11 Jan 2013
only in loch avon but depends on the size of the boats :)
Fergal - on 11 Jan 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

Whats the problem, looks pretty wintery to me!!??

it's hardly suprising the new blood is getting mixed messages, print media and blogs are full of the latest heroes, hooking to glory in some quarry or other, undoubted dry tooling is great training and has evolved into a sport in it's own right, but where is the line drawn, there is know doubt that the strict, only if it has a winter apearance aesthetic is being watered down, by just about everyone. In reality the was it easier with axe and crampons doesn't hold much credence these days, cold rock climbs following thin cracks/hooks are easier with picks and crampons than without.

So the benchmark for mixed seems to be the lightest dusting is acceptable, climbing routes bare is bad form, but does it cause more damage, are new protaganists misenterprating the ethic, it is far easier to number chase with the most amenable of conditions, i can see a future for Scottish winter climbing where climbing bare rock is the norm, when cutting edge climbers are doing things like Anubis, getting the aesthetic right and finding the right day for success is a bit like finding hens teeth, of course this all affects what is seen as acceptable, the trickle down affect, sees young fred on his easy classic doing the same.

Got to love the game though, fight the good fight.

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