UKC

In reply to Chris Craggs:
when we stopped regularly getting winter conditions like those shown in the picture?

In reply to Chris Craggs: not been doing it long so cant really compare it with the winters you used to get however I feel the 'tooled up masses' are pursuing something which is exciting and fun whilst we seem to have milder winters when ice does not come into condition.I can only see it as a good thing.

In reply to samsimpson:
I personally think climbing soft turf is generally not fair game and just because a route is easy doesn't excuse it. Only time will tell if the mountains suffer unduly to erosion or not because of this, along with the loss of rare habitats and plants.

In reply to Chris Craggs: I’m interested,; traditionally must the conditions be such as those presented in your photograph to climb whilst ‘tooled up’, or, ethically is it acceptable so long as the turf is frozen, ice is formed and the plants are protected, as the forecasts and peoples comments on UKC would lead us to believe is the current state of play?

This is a genuine question because I though that the conditions predicted for the hills this weekend are fair game?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hmm Not all routes have ice like that so I am not sure the purpose of the photo you linked?

Here is me on good frozen water ice and it was just a year ago.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_OzhJhHnFjAA/TRiQEBlhevI/AAAAAAAACiY/BF8M5FXR74A/s...

In reply to Lukeva: The situation you describe is perfectly acceptable, it is not often like chris' photo nowadays!

The problem is that alot of people now seem to think that turf freezes within twenty minutes of the temperature dropping below freezing.

In reality it probably takes two-three days to be properly climbable, perhaps longer.

In reply to timjones:


Agreed, and actually, the internet stops a lot of people because we can know the likely conditions from proper conditions reports and forums and say "I can't be arsed" if it's marginal, will save the petrol money until it's worth the trip!

In reply to Chris Craggs:
It all went downhill when someone invented the phrase "White in appearance".....

In reply to Chris Harris:


So sometime in the mid-80s then? How long have you been winter climbing?

In reply to smithaldo: Thanks, looking forward to Saturday.

In reply to Phil J Booth:

Yes. I would have certainly more often climbed in marginal conditions or crap weather twenty years ago. The internet all too easily gives convenient excuses not to bother.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I find it interesting that back in the 1890s climbing classic rock routes in snowed up conditions was considered just as much a part of winter climbing as it is nowadays. What goes around comes around...

In reply to Chris Harris:

Sounds like something O.G.Jones said in about 1896 when considering the first winter ascent of Napes Needle. I don't think that much has fundamentally changed if you go back far enough, but as with most things, winter climbing is subject to fashions.

In reply to Chris Harris:

Yes, things have become rather anal recently. People used to just go out and climb whatever they found. Nowadays they get shot down by the "white in appearance" police on the interenet.

In reply to Only a hill:

Although presumably the gear and technique was a bit different back then? Or were people pulling fig-fours on torqued alpenstocks left right and centre?

In reply to Chris Craggs: Troll.

In reply to Ramblin dave:
You might be surprised--NE Buttress on the Ben was first climbed in winter in the mid 1890s, and is a Grade IV. Not sure what grade Napes Needle gets in winter but must be higher. I've certainly come across accounts of 'combined tactics' that can be compared with some modern mixed techniques (although you're quite right, gear was very different!)

In reply to Only a hill:

Not sure what grade Napes Needle gets in winter but must be higher.

Same grade as it gets in summer, tho your fingers may get a bit colder.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
In the 1970`s, it was not considered to be "winter climbing" until everything was frozen up.
One or two of us did early ascents of mixed type routes in the Lakes during this time . These where also dismissed as " not proper winter climbing".
We took the view ( may not have been original) that if a climb was easier to do with axes and crampons than without,it was a true winter ascent.

In reply to Last Thursday:

These two conditions are not consistent.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I spent a few winters dry-tooling with the masses in the Northern Corries and Whatnot. You needed crampons for the approach and descent but I swear the well snow-ploughed classics like Pygmy, Fingers and the Seam could have been done in rock boots (and been 3 grades easier for it).
Odd. Yes
Rubbish as well.
I spend my winters on UKC now.

In reply to Chris Craggs: That's an ice route, not a mixed route. Mixed routes are as old as rock climbing like Alex said above. Indeed Britain led the way worldwide in the development of technical mixed routes such as Oblique Chimney on Gable in the 1890s and Bowfell Buttress in the 1930s.

In reply to alan moore:

< high five scooby dive >
Like it, you would still fit right in, love the irony in your post!

Call me old fashioned, but i always thought unless, you were forging ahead ploughing your own furrow it was cheating, elitist perhaps, but who really wants to follow in someones wake, where is the challenge, pristine unsullied territory for the win, those spurs are earned.

For some strange reason it always seemed proper nick, when the route was plastered, this now seems perverse, hours spent hoovering up mixed lines, aesthetic and beautifull but hard work.

I spend my winters in B&Q now, pining for the fjords.

In reply to Andrew Clarke:

You are Slartibartfast and I claim my five pounds.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Poor English sorry. The general view by most was that a full freeze was required before anything was "in".
A group of us took the view that if it was easier to climb with an axe and crampons than without , then it was a " winter climb"

In reply to Chris Craggs: Here's a good one for discussion, according to this bloghttp://mountainzblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/breaking-trail-on-curved-ridge.... Agag's Groove got an ascent yesterday. Big pic http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FII1ZR78rk8/UPXKe5JrnHI/AAAAAAAAAnU/TAYNity8vZQ/s... Everything else looks very white and snowy but the Rannoch Wall seems to steep to hold much and no hoar frost.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Strange post this one!