/ Kinder Downfall

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Mike Hutton - on 16 Jan 2013
Has anyone seen the condition of the kinder downfall recently or done it this year????
efrance24234 - on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: lol
Misha - on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton:
Yeah there was a 20m vertical pillar on it earlier today but it collapsed when the pigs tried to climb it instead of just flying by.
kermit_uk - on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton:

I've heard that it takes a week of good sub zero temps so do we think it might be coming "in" early next week? I have a fair bit of holiday to use up and am tempted by it?
jimjimjim on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: 1st rule of the downfall is you do not talk about downfall....
RichardP - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to jimjimjim:

(Sh.... "that's fight club" ! )
faceworker on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to RichardP: Because of the work they have been doing on the top of kinder to reduce peat erosion they have dammed many of the gullies greatly to hold the water table on the top. This means the flow of water down the downfall has and will be greatly reduced. Basically the downfall is going to be ruined for climbing.
RichardP - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to faceworker:
> This means the flow of water down the downfall has and will be greatly reduced. Basically the downfall is going to be ruined for climbing.

Oh sh!t

I didn't know that

Double Knee Bar - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to RichardP: people have been saying that for the last couple of years. I climbed it last year.
CurlyStevo - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
After the rain last year I doubt it's going to be bone dry up there ;)
iksander on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: It was fully formed yesterday, but unfortunately I smashed it to smithereerns
faceworker on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Double Knee Bar: But since last year they have done a significant amount of more damming. I went up there in November after haevy rain and it was a trickle
Simon Caldwell - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to faceworker:
> Basically the downfall is going to be ruined for climbing.

It was climbed earlier this winter. It wasn't in condition, but that's because it hadn't been cold for long enough - the photos looked like it would have been in good nick if it had stayed cold for another week (instead of melting).
The Blue Bucket - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: There is loads of water going over the downfall, and has been most of the last year, the dams have slowed the run off but not to the point it wont be climbable, it's down to the weather.
Last year it froze very quickly, it was very cold for a short period of time and starved of the trickles needed to build it. It just got in (dubious) nick for one day then melted. The way the temperature has been this week it should be in Sunday night/Monday may be earlier if not banked out totally with snow that is.
Last year we had a fantastic night climb less than 100m from the downfall on a great little ice smear only short, but great fun anyway, the downfall hadn't really formed and we were responsible and had a play round the corner and didn't ruin the fun that many people that enjoyed it on the Sunday when it had formed. By the way if the cold snap lasted a little longer last year it would have been a great climb.
I know people provide negative feedback on this forum and particularly about Kinder to stop idiots going and kicking the shit out of it before its ready, but this year given the forecast it could/should be good next week, patience, all will be revealed.
sputnik - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: Just got down from a visit to the downfall. It is all frozen over. But not in good nick to be honest. Not much to link up. Looks like the damming has taken its toll. Bit disappointing.
Offwidth - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to sputnik:

It's little to do with the damming and very much to do with constant sub-zero temps cutting off the water supply it needs to form. The best formation conditions are just above zero with strong wind chilling the rock. It can form in one night so this the week of right conditions thing is a myth. Other more obscure places are a better bet currently as the water comes from springs (and no I'm not saying where).
CurlyStevo - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
I've heard that theory regarding Beinn Udlaidh also, however both venues were exceptionally fat in the winter of 2009/2010 during persistent cold patches (and continued to fatten during them)
Offwidth - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Sun-melt? spring feeds?? there has to be a water source for it to freeze. The river Kinder runs under the ice at times so some people mistakenly think its fully frozen when its not.
Glen - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Water seeps out of the shale band that forms the cliffs a Udlaidh, that's why it is a pure water ice venue, and requires a sustained freeze.
Simon Caldwell - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm not sure why given all the rain we've had, but many streams seem to be running less than usual. The Downfall certainly isn't unique in this respect, and I agree the dams are unlikely to be the main cause.
toad - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to Toreador: I'm back from the pub, so won't go into detail, but I've been monitoring water levels of gully blocked catchments(with others) in the peak for years and there isn't any difference pre and post. I might post more sober reflections later in the w/end!
smithaldo - on 18 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: The cold spell you describe was mentally cold so formed more like alpine ice in Cogne etc. at the moment it's nothing like it was then at all. Off width is totally right about how the downfall usually forms, the 2010 was an anomaly. Back tor last night wasn't even frozen. The turf seemed just too dry bizarrely given the rain so I for one have given up scond guessing conditions and decided that time spent in reconnaissance is never time wasted. Just like Rommel.
In reply to Offwidth:

> Sun-melt? spring feeds?? there has to be a water source for it to freeze.

Snow on the ground seems quite important for good ice to form because it insulates the ground/stream/springs/etc where the water comes from. That way the water forms into ice coming down the cliff not on top before it gets to the cliff. It's amazing how wet icefalls can be even when its -20 air temps, if enough water is coming out the ground at the top. Got soaked last weekend ice climbing despite a week of temperatures between about -5 and -10.
Mike Nolan - on 19 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to sputnik)
>
> Other more obscure places are a better bet currently as the water comes from springs (and no I'm not saying where).

Why not?
Darren Jackson - on 19 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
>
> ... Other more obscure places are a better bet currently as the water comes from springs (and no I'm not saying where).

St Ann's Well in Buxton!?!?... Now that IS obscure.
Sam Bennett - on 19 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton:

Does anyone know what the road between bamford and edale is like?
Dan_S - on 19 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike N:

> In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to sputnik)
>
> Other more obscure places are a better bet currently as the water comes from springs (and no I'm not saying where).

> Why not?

Because either:
He's selfish and doesn't want to pass on "his little secrets" to the wider community so he can climb them himself in solitude
or
At the first suggestion of almost solid ice in the peak, a literal million people descend on the venue, hack it to pieces, then complain about poor conditions as they sulk home again.
jon59 - on 19 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: Optimistically took a look at kinder downfall yesterday after an early morning romp up Mam Tor, never thought it would be climbable but it made a great day out in some testing navigation conditions.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd281/jon859/kinderdownfall18Jan13_zps1e32e11c.jpg
Offwidth - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Nolan:

It's a mixture of reasons. The lesser known spots are often more delicate (they would be trashed if well known). Some are access affected. I am a bit depressed about how poor style comes out in peak winter ice climbs: these routes when they form can be often climbed on hooks after the first few ascents and in any case all those in the queue would benefit from a more delicate approach from the current ascentionists: they dont need bludgeoning to death. Finally although you may have a reasonable idea you dont know for sure and I dont want to be sending folk on a wild goose chase for something that isnt easy to find in the first place...whatever happened to exploring and learning the moods of peak winter for oneself?
The reality is Over the Moors gives the best routes clearly in black and white anyhow.
Mausman. - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton:
I'm almost totally with Offwidth on this one, some/most of these venues would last about half a day with the hordes of UKC descending on them.

It's taken me years to find all these little places ( some of which are not in Over The Moors ) and I've had a fantastic time doing it. Some I've found by looking at likely spots on the map, some by word of mouth and some I've just blundered across exploring the moors in winter.

Simon Caldwell - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

I agree - apart from all the best ones being in Over the Moors ;-)
Ander on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Mike Nolan)
>
> I am a bit depressed about how poor style comes out in peak winter ice climbs: these routes when they form can be often climbed on hooks after the first few ascents and in any case all those in the queue would benefit from a more delicate approach from the current ascentionists: they dont need bludgeoning to death.

Well said.
Offwidth - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Toreador:

Really?? Ice falls in that guidebook area better than the Downfall when its properly in? Shale/turf better than Man Tor or Back Tor? Rock/turf better than Dovestones Quarry? (I just might give you gullies as good fun as Wilderness).
Frank the Husky - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Toreador: Quite a few of them are not in Over The Moors, and all the better for it. We purposefully didn't mention everything, as a bit of exploratory zeal is essential on the moors. We also didn't have anywhere like enough space. Buy the book now for the true beta on places like Mam Tor and Dovestones Quarries.
cragtyke - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky: I was out and about in Longdendale today, there is some ice forming in places especially higher up, some it was a bit soft after midday but could be good later in the week.
Dan Lane - on 20 Jan 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Even I know of some 'unknown' winter routes in the peak that are not in OTM, and i've not done a single winter route in the peak! It really doesn't take much effort to find some good places that are not in the guide, even going for a walk in summer can give you a good idea of what might make a good winter route, Just go and have an explore people!
Wheelsy - on 21 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton:

Some photos of the Downfall from a plod up on the plateau yesterday -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheelsy1/8401969584/in/set-72157632577165882

CHASETRAILBUILDA - on 21 Jan 2013
In reply to Wheelsy: Nice pics. Was that Red Brook you were climbing in the other photos? Did it a couple of months ago and fancied returning for a winter route. What was it like?. Looked a bit powdery?
stella1 - on 21 Jan 2013
In reply to Wheelsy: Doesn't look far off....
smithaldo - on 21 Jan 2013
In reply to stella1: someone did it on saturday according to the logbooks. From the photos I wouldn't class that as in condition and walk away but hey ho, some people are obviously desperate for the tick.
ads.ukclimbing.com
LizS on 21 Jan 2013
In reply:
Definitely tantalising photos, it does look almost there and the forecast's looking good for it.

However, I'm going to satisfy myself with the fact that I climbed it 13yrs ago. We made a very early start and by the time we topped out it was beginning to melt in the sun so the folks who arrived after us didn't get onto it.

A friend took photos with a then very new and very expensive digital camera and I was able to go home with a cd, stuff it into the computer and say "here, this is what I did this morning".

Fantastic day!
jimjimjim on 21 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton: looks like you could have a play on the bottom bit maybe up the mixed type line in the right hand corner but the top is nowhere near. I'd stay away. Think i'll head to wales for my fix on wednesday.
Ander on 21 Jan 2013
In reply to stella1:
> (In reply to Wheelsy) Doesn't look far off....

Doesn't look like it'll take a lot of traffic to me... hopefully a few more days will see it come in well.
ianslade on 22 Jan 2013
In reply to Mike Hutton:

Just had a report that people are playing on Kinder now
smithaldo - on 22 Jan 2013
In reply to ianslade: "just had a report that people are trashing it before its in on kinder now"

fixed that last post for you......
Dan_S - on 22 Jan 2013
In reply to smithaldo:

It's nice to see you have the authority to make that accusation from the comfort of your computer chair.

Pitch 1 (up to the half way ledge) of the normal route is in. The direct route at pitch 2 are not in.

Folk were traversing off at the half way ledge, climbing a mixed chimney and out over a boulder field. I think that actually makes for a more entertaining finish.

Pitch 1 was fatter than in the photo on my profile, and if you hunt around you'll find loads of pictures of people doing it "in Nick" around the same date. I'll still k a photo from today up later once I've had my tea.
tom290483 - on 22 Jan 2013
jimjimjim on 22 Jan 2013
In reply to Dan_S: As i thought...makes sense. If you can have a bit of a play then good luck to you.

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