/ Ice Climbing Fall

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ablackett - on 26 Jan 2013
Just a reminder to be careful out there in thawing conditions!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMdrAX70sFM

Lucky? Stupid?
pebbles - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: well, he is on a toprope so not too much of a problem surely..
Robert Durran - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:
> Lucky? Stupid?

Neither. Quite amusing though.

martinph78 on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:

Not really a problem on a top rope, unless he squashed his belayer I guess :)

Sounds like they were having fun, I think that we sometimes forget to do that...

Best part is, it's not far from here. Worst part is there will be no ice left by tomorrow :(
boots - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: not if he keeps climbing it ....
3414peterk - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: Can't see the issue? Some climbers out having fun, belayer stood out of the way, camera person also out of the way, whats wrong with that. He even had a helmet on.
ablackett - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to 3414peterk: Good to see the comments, the camera person was me. I had just climbed an adjacent line which had fallen down when I was right near the bottom. The blocks of ice which came down weighed up to 40kg after they had hit the ground, so I reckon that slab which came down was 300kg+.

If the slab had come down when he was lower and landed on him we thought he might be in trouble, so we moved along and did some dry tooling as we lost confidence in the thawing ice.

Perhaps we were overcautious though?
ablackett - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to 3414peterk: PS. It was cracking fun.
All the Gear, No Idea on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: An old climbing partner of mine hit an 8 to 10 foot slab of ice so hard first swing, it shattered into breeze block sized pieces and went south, then started to complain that he had nothing to climb on.....my response was. "Tough Shit, your the pillock that doesn't know what subtlety is", he wasn't impressed. "I suggest you learn to dry tool....quickly" wasn't received well either...LOL
Murko Fuzz - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:

Hilarious! Good effort.
fmck - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:
Tastefully done given today's events!
ablackett - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to fmck:
> (In reply to ablackett)
> Tastefully done given today's events!

Many apologies for any offence caused, I wasn't aware of the incident on Tower Ridge when I posted this clip and send my condolences to all concerned. I can't imagine the pain such an incident much cause.
Lil_Pete - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to All the Gear, No Idea:

"I suggest you learn to dry tool....quickly"

It's comments like this that I love when climbing and it's all going to shit, lightens my mood no end. That said I normally start laughing and fall off ...

:-)
ablackett - on 26 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: And a lot more footage of today if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYQb9V7NXi0

morango - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:
> Just a reminder to be careful out there in thawing conditions!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMdrAX70sFM
>
> Lucky? Stupid?

I know Wol and he was always accident prone. Eg. kayak in the kidneys, snow hole cave in etc etc.

Cameron94 on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: It's because his anti-balling plates didn't match ;-)
Robert Durran - on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to fmck:
> (In reply to ablackett)
> Tastefully done given today's events!

And I suppose the BBC should cancel Top Gear any day there is a road accident. Ridiculous.

awallace on 27 Jan 2013
In reply to Pat Moran:
Thanks a bunch Pat! I'm sure it was the bit you dug that failed!!!

Andy
iksander on 28 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: I'm not sure hooking the tight rope with his axe was a good idea
awallace on 28 Jan 2013
In reply to iksander: Look very very carefully at the before and after shots and you will see another thing that was a bad idea too.
ablackett - on 28 Jan 2013
In reply to kembiff:
> (In reply to iksander) Look very very carefully at the before and after shots and you will see another thing that was a bad idea too.

Clipping in with a crab rather than tying in? I understand that this isn't best practice, but I have always convinced myself it is pretty low down the list of things that could go wrong. You are never going to have a fall big enough to snap a cross loaded crab if the gate is shut on a top rope, so I figure that as long as the gate is locked it is fine.

I wouldn't lead on that set up because the fall could snap the crab I think.

thommi - on 28 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: I think both tbh.
colina - on 28 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett: that could have been nasty .good belaying
MooseMouse - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:

>you are never going to have a fall big enough to snap a cross loaded crab if the gate is shut on a top rope, so I figure that as long as the gate is locked it is fine.

I believe the concern is not a conventionally cross loaded krab(i.e. loaded across the minor axis), but rather an inwardly loaded gate where the rope snags across the locking sleeve.

This orientation, although unlikely, can cause the sleeve to split and the gate to open with loads of little more than body wieght. (I think I remember reading 80kg and I easily managed to demonstrate this kind of failure). The rope would then be released from the krab.
In reply to ablackett: I liked it! Glad you guys were on top rope - looked fun, a bit scary though!

I put your vid in the UKC galleries:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=536511

Nice to see people getting out locally.

Cheers,

Jack
Jamie B - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:

> You are never going to have a fall big enough to snap a cross loaded crab if the gate is shut on a top rope.

Probably not, but why take the chance? It only takes seconds to tie in properly.
ablackett - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to MooseMouse:
> (In reply to ablackett)
>
> >you are never going to have a fall big enough to snap a cross loaded crab if the gate is shut on a top rope, so I figure that as long as the gate is locked it is fine.
>
> I believe the concern is not a conventionally cross loaded krab(i.e. loaded across the minor axis), but rather an inwardly loaded gate where the rope snags across the locking sleeve.
>
> This orientation, although unlikely, can cause the sleeve to split and the gate to open with loads of little more than body wieght. (I think I remember reading 80kg and I easily managed to demonstrate this kind of failure). The rope would then be released from the krab.

This doesn't sound right to me. I am willing to be proved wrong, but my intuition is that it would take a lot more than 80kg to split the locking sleeve.

ablackett - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to ablackett)
>
> [...]
>
> Probably not, but why take the chance?

I guess it is cold hands and fingers, taking multiple falls and rotating 4 people on 1 rope, so a 20 second delay x 4 people x 6 routes = 8 minutes.

I would imagine we have all taken a decision to save 8 minutes at the expense of a degree of safety, eg by not searching around for a 3rd nut in that belay which looks ok or not properly equalising the sling on that tree which looks ok etc.

I'm not saying it was perfect, but I do think it was an ok decision.
CurlyStevo - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to ablackett:
"But my intuition is that it would take a lot more than 80kg "
I think that massively depends on the biner. Some are quite beefy and others a lot thinner and start to split with age!
nniff - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to ablackett)
> "But my intuition is that it would take a lot more than 80kg "
> I think that massively depends on the biner. Some are quite beefy and others a lot thinner and start to split with age!


Given that I weigh that amount (nearly) and I can hold my weight on one hand - does that mean that you're saying that i should be able to open a krab, one-handed, without undong the gate? I think not.
ads.ukclimbing.com
CurlyStevo - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to nniff:
No I very much doubt you could squeeze anything like 80kg. Anyway I wasn't speculating on how much a biner can hold just that his amount will be biner dependent. Some biners are advertised as having extra strong sleeves.
nniff - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

80 kg is only halfway on the Captains of Crush gripper scale and therefore by your assertion a krab can be broken open by hand by someone with suitably large forearms without even trying much.

Indeed, whether I can close 80kg or not, you're saying that if i sat in a sling loading the wrong side of the gate of a closed screwgate, it would tear open? I'm afraid that fails the 'krabs are clearly mot made of cheese' test at the first hurdle.
davo77 - on 29 Jan 2013
In reply to Murko Fuzz:

i don't think there is anything wrong with a bit of harmless climbing fun with falling obsticles!!! Climbing in winter is scary stuff anywho so why not have a giggle whilst out & about, as long safety is paramount why not, its only gonna fall off in the middle of the night when everyone is tucked up in bed! Good video
CurlyStevo - on 30 Jan 2013
In reply to nniff:
You don't seem to be listening. I was never attempting to say at what limit the sleeve would fail, my point was in context to this

"But my intuition is that it would take a lot more than 80kg "

I was only saying that how much more would be very dependent on the biner. One of my friends biners already has a small crack in the sleeve and generally looks fairly weak whilst other biners are marketed as having strong sleeves by design.
CurlyStevo - on 30 Jan 2013
In reply to nniff:
Anyway 5 mins googling puts an end to this speculation on your part.

http://www.simplycircus.com/sites/default/files/rigging/A%20Little%20Something%20You%20Should%20Know...

Biners can break at the sleeve from inward pressure of a lot less than 80 kg.
nniff - on 30 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Anyway, five minutes of reading that shows that it's not 80kg (or 60kg) - its considerably more because it's that load applied to a lever (such as a fig 8 or rappel rack).

Taking figures and quoting them out of context is unhelpful at best.

As for "Biners can break at the sleeve from inward pressure of a lot less than 80 kg" well, that is still self-evidently not true as shown in the document you linked - however an 80kg (or even a 60kg) load applied to a suitable lever will easily tear the sleeve on a locking krab. Nothing new in that - the thing that caused concern (and is the substance of the paper)is the way in which you can construct such a lever using climbing gear in a configuration that is not much removed from the norm.

Anyway, the day you break a krab without a lever and just body weight is the day all our climbing gear gets a whole lot heavier. Everything has its limitations (and necessarily so where there are conflicting requirements such as weigh, strength, cost etc) - the important thing is to recognise the limitations and not misinterpret their relevance in any given situation.
CurlyStevo - on 30 Jan 2013
In reply to nniff:
OK fair enough rearding the leaver. Going back to my original point, according to this link The CE standard is 1kn (100kg) inward pressure when new :
http://www.rockexotica.com/products/carabiners/best_in_the_world.html

My point was that many biners out there will be a lot stronger than others in this regard, according to the link some are 10kn inwards pressure and other significantly less than 2kn.
ablackett - on 30 Jan 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: Thanks for the link, I have learned something about inward pressure strength and it reminded me that I need to buy one a grappling hook!

http://www.rockexotica.com/products/other_products/all_other.html

Can't see any reason to walk round to the top of the crag to set a top rope now!

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