/ house buying

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Mattyk - on 10 Feb 2013
We've just looked at a house that i really would like. it has OIRO of X but the estate agent informs me it has had 3 offers already and its only been on market since friday.

i'm thinking tactics now. we can afford a little more than the OIRO price. obviously don't want to spend more than we have to as it does require some work. Its in a very desirable location with very few houses coming on the market certainly in this price bracket - so i suspect it would get its asking if not more?

What would you do automatically go in low 10% under. we were thinking of going in only 5% under. Do you think the estate agents sometimes spin a yarn about these other offers?

The general advice i know is split. 10% under or just pay what you are prepared to pay.

Oh collective wisdom what do you think?
Edradour - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:
>
> Do you think the estate agents sometimes spin a yarn about these other offers?
>

Yes I do. Ask the agent what the other offers are (or what area - he probably won't tell you outright) and if they have a chain etc. If you're in a strong position (i.e. able to move quickly and without fuss) then you're more appealing to a buyer.

>
> Oh collective wisdom what do you think?

A good agent should give you a steer. I would offer low, see what happens and increase accordingly. Assuming this isn't Scotland the seller isn't obliged to stay with an offer even after he has accepted it so if you really like the place, have been outbid then be honest, ask what the accepted offer was and offer above it.

thin bob on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:
I would say...if you like it, it's what you want and you can afford it, pay the asking price, as long as you then get to say when you move etc.

Is it worth a few grand to get what you want, rather than be waiting nervously and maybe watch it slip away? No-one likes spending money, but you could view it as 'paying away the stress' & 'buying weekends free of house-hunting" :-)
highclimber - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: estate agents work for the vendor. full stop. any time they start telling you about any current ffers, take it with a big pinch of sodium chloride. Their fees are generally a % of the final selling price and will do anything legal to increae that fee.

a cynical post, I know, but them's the facts based on previous experience.

stand your ground and offer only what you are willing to pay for it but there is no reason not to put in a cheeky offer as the EA has an obligation to put those offers to the vendor regardless of how cheeky it is.
grommet on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: I would ask the estate agent if any of the offers have been accepted. I would ask how likely your offer of X -5% is to be accepted. If you're in a good position e.g. Ready to move by... No chain, renting on a months notice etc then state this. I would also ask if you paid the asking price would they accept & take it off the market. Good luck! Daughter just had to do same & it all worked out.
Caralynh - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

If it's already under your budget and you really want it, offer the asking price.
We moved about 18 months ago, had been looking for a decent place in the country within budget for ages with no luck. We'd seen this house but not looked round since it was absolute top of budget and meant a few compromises. Months later it was remarketed, with 30k off the asking price. We went to look and fell in love with the house, so much better than we though it would be. It was now pretty much the perfect house and under budget. Didn't want to lose it, and since the seller had already dropped the price a bit, we offered the new asking price straight away. Really didn't see the point in game playing and taking chances when everything was already on our side.
Mattyk - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: Thanks for all that. really appreciate your help.
Philip on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

Are you a first time buyer (or not non a chain).

Offer the asking, then screw them down on price just before completing.
Mattyk - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip: not really my style... but..

sellers i think have inherited so just getting rid at best price. I own a house but buying out of chain and will sell current house after purchase so chain free.

i like the idea of calling testing waters with lower bid.. and then if rejected full-stop with no negotiation just giving a firm take off market offer.
brora boyan - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:
> We've just looked at a house that i really would like. it has OIRO of X but the estate agent informs me it has had 3 offers already and its only been on market since friday.
>
> i'm thinking tactics now. we can afford a little more than the OIRO price. obviously don't want to spend more than we have to as it does require some work. Its in a very desirable location with very few houses coming on the market certainly in this price bracket - so i suspect it would get its asking if not more?
>
> What would you do automatically go in low 10% under. we were thinking of going in only 5% under. Do you think the estate agents sometimes spin a yarn about these other offers?
>
> The general advice i know is split. 10% under or just pay what you are prepared to pay.
>
> Oh collective wisdom what do you think?

If it was me then i would only pay what i thought the house was worth and what i could afford,that way you'll always know that you put your best offer also if you don't get the house the house never chose you. i've bought a few and the last one was at auction and i paid what i thought it was worth and what i could afford and we got it....Good luck
pork pie girl - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: offer 10% under
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

Personally, in your position, Whilst I'd generally go 10% under I would mirror your thinking and go 5% under. The buyers won't expect your first offer to be your last, and they can read the code as well as you can.

To me, 5% under says "I would really like your house, would happily pay asking, but it's an uncertain world, surveys are yet to come and I want some wiggle room."
summo on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to pork pie girl:
> (In reply to Mattyk) offer 10% under

Agree, unless you have area knowledge that says this house is in very high demand, go 10-15% under, isn't the UK a buyers market now? The seller might be desperate to move for work, in a chain etc. they might force you up from 15% to just 5 or 10%, but that's a winner for you.
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip:
> (In reply to Mattyk)
>
> Are you a first time buyer (or not non a chain).
>
> Offer the asking, then screw them down on price just before completing.

Has anyone ever told you that you are lowlife?

In any case what you suggest - as well as being just plain nasty, might backfire badly. Remember that the seller pays out very little until the house has sold, but by just before completion the buyer has already paid a lot of money in search fees, surveys, etc, which if the seller says "F*ck you" (and if it was me, I would (1)), you've lost.

Also, word of buyers like yourself gets around, and estate agents will share notes.

(1) When selling I rejected the highest bid for my property as those potential buyers started playing silly games (2), and actually sold for a much lower price to a young couple who fell in love with the house, played no games at all, and scraped every penny they and their parents had together to buy it.

(2) And then refused to deal with said buyers even after they appeared to stop playing games, because they had by then annoyed me.
summo on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: to me offering the asking price straight out, is lunacy. You are going to spend a few decades paying this off, you aren't shopping for some tat on ebay and choosing the 'buy it now' price, it's a house!!
summo on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to Philip)
> [...]
>
> Has anyone ever told you that you are lowlife?
I agree, you want to pay the least you can, but there is no reason why it can't be done in an open and civilised way. What goes around, comes around.
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to summo:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
> I agree, you want to pay the least you can, but there is no reason why it can't be done in an open and civilised way. What goes around, comes around.

Agree 100%..
Philip on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to John_Hat:

No, no-one has. If you want to carry on your way fine. My only experience of house buyer showed me that everyone else, estate agents, brokers, lawyers, sellers - only care for money and how much they can get. Playing by some kind of self imposed ethics is only about paying over the odds.

Now in this case it's not a first time buyer, but otherwise don't assume anyone else in the transaction has any scruples.
doz generale - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

Contact the vendor directly. You can't trust estate agents.
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip:

Hmmn. Just because everyone else may behave like a selfish git doesn't mean that I have to behave the same way.

Personally I like to be able to look in the mirror each day and persuade myself that I'm not actually a selfish money-grabbing git, regardless of how others may behave.

Obviously I'm an accountant, which kind of means I'm on a bit of a loser there before I start, but there's no point making the situation worse!

As a matter of interest, when buying we also paid more than the house I am sitting in was probably worth. We could afford it, and the sellers were relying on the sale of this property to fund them through their retirement. We saw no point, and had no interest in, screwing them down to a minimum amount.

At the end of the day, it's only money, and there's more important things in life. Such as - to me - behaving in a way that is decent to others.
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to doz generale:
> (In reply to Mattyk)
>
> Contact the vendor directly. You can't trust estate agents.

Good point. Once we started negotiating with the vendor directly a lot of the cr*p was removed.
summo on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip: you also need to remember, you are moving into a community, those new neighbours of yours, could be best friends of the person you are trying to rip off. You are buying a house for 20-25yrs and burning all your bridges around you before you even get the keys?

You might decide to move on and rent the house out, but the local estate agent remembers you were a complete ar$e and refuses to manage the long distance rental for you etc etc..

Sometimes you just don't know what's around the corner and besides, why be a complete and under coc*.
Philip on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to doz generale)
> [...]
>
> Good point. Once we started negotiating with the vendor directly a lot of the cr*p was removed.

And you screwed the estate agent over. Well done. Let's hope you karma survived ;-)
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> And you screwed the estate agent over. Well done. Let's hope you karma survived ;-)

erm, no, they still got their cut. And as it was a percentage, it was more than they would have got if we'd paid what the house was actually worth.
doz generale - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> And you screwed the estate agent over. Well done. Let's hope you karma survived ;-)

Well estate agent doesn't get screwed. They still get thier fee. It's just worth cutting them out of the negotiations as soon as possible.
John_Hat - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to doz generale:
> (In reply to Philip)
> [...]
> It's just worth cutting them out of the negotiations as soon as possible.

Agreed. Because they complicate things, and will (in my experience) try and drive the price up.

They are great as introducers, but beyond that point I think they have outlived their usefullness.


Mattyk - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

Just spoke to my dad and he suggested just offering asking price to get it off the market.. then if needs be use survey to bring it down.

It's in a village where most houses are at least double the price and near Ilkley which is not exactly cheap.
summo on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to doz generale)> They are great as introducers, but beyond that point I think they have outlived their usefullness.

decent advertising in the right local press and a decent webite/search engine tied into the right national house sales networks. That's pretty much all you pay for.
summo on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: if you really think it's a bargain, door knock them, offer the asking minus the cost of the decent survey. If there are likely to be any deal breakers in the survey, they'll likely tell you there and then? (hoping they are honest people too).
Mattyk - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to summo: no one lives there. i think its parents house - now dead? and now they are cashing in assets to move on. Estate agents are doing viewings so no idea who vendor is. House needs fully renovating is only concern in going in too high but we think its worth at least the asking price. Location is top!
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Steve John B - on 10 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:
> (In reply to summo) Estate agents are doing viewings so no idea who vendor is.

You can find out for 6 (I think) on here:

http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/
summo on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: I would just ask the vendor, say you some questions about the property and would really like ask face to face etc. Tell them you'll probably seal the deal that day(survery pending of course), it should work as a carrot.

If the vendor won't let go of the negotiations, collar the sellers outside afterwards and treat them to a coffee or something stronger for a proper chat.
Trangia - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to summo:

The vendors may not want to negotiate face to face, that's a very good reason for employing and estate agent
highclimber - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to summo:
> (In reply to Mattyk) if you really think it's a bargain, door knock them, offer the asking minus the cost of the decent survey. If there are likely to be any deal breakers in the survey, they'll likely tell you there and then? (hoping they are honest people too).

I wouldn't waste money on a building survey. We had one done and it didn't tell us anything we didn't already know or what a good builder can tell you. Total waste of money and a lot of stress waiting for it to be done and written up.

They don't do any real destructive or non-destructive testing. they are caveated to high heaven too so if you have one done and they miss something (as in our case - a missing chimney lintel) there is no way of recompense
Mattyk - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: offer in.. they have offers in excess of what we offered (asking price) but we are chain free so maybe a better bet for teh vendor.

At least this has got me thinking seriously about moving.

thanks again one and all for allowing me to sound things out.
Trangia - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to highclimber:
> (In reply to summo)
> they are caveated to high heaven too so if you have one done and they miss something (as in our case - a missing chimney lintel) there is no way of recompense

I'm curious about this. Are you talking about a chimney breast having been removed and the chimney mass above remaining unsupported? If so your surveyor should have alerted you to that possibility, even if he/she couldn't see covered up work. Presumably they checked the structure above, including in the roof space if appropriate) and reported it free from any tale tale cracking or distortion? If I'm talking about a similar scenario then it's such a common problem a good surveyor would comment on it and warn you or recommend opening up to investigate if in doubt, I don't think it's good enough to hide behind a caveat if they hadn't at least brought the possibilty of a problem to your attention.

Caveats are no excuse for failing to follow the trail where a problem is suspected (or indeed, in the circumstances, should be expected)

(Retired chartered surveyor)
summo on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to summo)
>
> The vendors may not want to negotiate face to face, that's a very good reason for employing and estate agent

yes, or they may just live miles away in this example, so you could always ring them, but no harm in being human and just communicating, ie asking the agent etc..

If I was selling a house for a dead relative, spoke to a potential buyer on the phone first, I drive an hour is more to say meet them in the middle, why not, it's an important sale and a big thing to both parties. Good communications removes all the stress and hassle, by building trust.
tlm - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
>
> No, no-one has. If you want to carry on your way fine. My only experience of house buyer showed me that everyone else, estate agents, brokers, lawyers, sellers - only care for money and how much they can get.

That isn't always the case. Our sellers had a higher offer after they had accepted ours, but turned it down. We let them stay in the house a month after we had bought it, so that they had time to do up their new house. If you never see trustworthiness in anyone else, then you will never benefit from it.
andrew breckill - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to tlm: after making a living buying and selling property I can say with confidence estate agents are prepared to say anythng to sell a house, I have not met one that dealt according to their 'industry standards' in the back pockets of other developers, lying about number and amount of offers, even revealing offers to me, my advice, walk away.
John Lewis - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: Think about the hard and soft benefits you can bring to the deal, don't underestimate the soft ones.

Hard - Asking Price, Chain Free, Pre Approved Mortgage etc

Soft - You love the house, area, can move at the pace requirements for them, unlikley to pull out mess about at the last minute etc.

When I last moved I bought a new house and discovered the builder need to seel by a date (before I could move, but i agreed a deal where we moved a month later). Knowing that you are getting just what you want at a fair price will make them more confident of the deal finalising.No one wants to get so far time and financially if the deal might fall appart.

lummox - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: Where is it Matty ? As you know, most of the villages in the Ilkley area are very pricey and houses sell pretty quickly- which is why we bought on the other side of the moor : )
PeakDJ on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

Hi Matt. If you can, go back for a second viewing (say you want to check a few things out again) and just have a frank discussion with the seller directly. Just ask them to be 100% upfront. That way you can cut out any possible bullshitting from estate agents. it'll give you an opportunity to tell them what you're willing to pay for the place and ask them directly if you can proceed on that basis with them taking it straight off the market. It worked for me when I bought my first place.
Trangia - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to summo:
> (In reply to Trangia)
> [...]
>
> Good communications removes all the stress and hassle, by building trust.

I don't disagree but I still think you should respect the reason why many people use an agent and not make direct contact with them without first asking the agent if they (the vendors) are happy about this.

I can think of many reasons why people don't want face to face negotiations. Eg

Lack of confidence in discusing financial affairs (suprisingly common)

Executors sales where there is more than one and they don't want to talk without consulting the others

Even confident people don't like being "put on the spot" when it comes to direct negotiations involving their own emotions. I say emotions becvause selling (and buying ) a property is often a very emotional process. For example a purchaser sees a fault with the property as a bargaining point, a vendor may see it as a criticism of their beloved home which can lead to misunderstanding, even antogonism.

Negotiating through an experienced agent can reduce such stresses, as it creates an arm's length barrier which gives everyone time to consider or reconsider
Mattyk - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to lummox: it's Denton hence i think it will be in demand. as far as doing anything now - i've maybe foolishly put in an offer of asking price with the temptation of our advantages (no chain, money stuff in place etc) which means i don't really have any 'wiggle room' Where do you live lummox? Wait and see i guess : if not i'm sure something will come up - i think i've realised now that location is very important to us as a priority.

I hope i haven't been tricked by estate agents. I'll feel a bit of a div!
lummox - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: The side of Baildon moor- yup I wouldn't think much will come up very often in Denton that isn't a pretty penny. The fact that you have finance in place etc. should help. Good luck !
doz generale - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to summo)
> [...]
>
> I don't disagree but I still think you should respect the reason why many people use an agent and not make direct contact with them without first asking the agent if they (the vendors) are happy about this.
>
> I can think of many reasons why people don't want face to face negotiations. Eg
>
> Lack of confidence in discusing financial affairs (suprisingly common)
>
> Executors sales where there is more than one and they don't want to talk without consulting the others
>
> Even confident people don't like being "put on the spot" when it comes to direct negotiations involving their own emotions. I say emotions becvause selling (and buying ) a property is often a very emotional process. For example a purchaser sees a fault with the property as a bargaining point, a vendor may see it as a criticism of their beloved home which can lead to misunderstanding, even antogonism.
>
> Negotiating through an experienced agent can reduce such stresses, as it creates an arm's length barrier which gives everyone time to consider or reconsider

I don't really agree with this as estate agents will always keep the details of the other party from you. There is no harm in contacting them and staring a dialogue. It's in both parties interests, Also if there is any last minute bargaining to be done this is usually done via solicitors and the agent just passes messages, or just makes things up!

If fact i've had issues with estate agents as a seller and a buyer in every house sale i've been involved with. Usually agents fibbing about offers or making decisions about offers without asking the seller! One estate agent even told me once that a property i wanted to put an offer on was no longer on the market and had sold. Which was untrue! i ended up buying it through a different agent.

Trangia - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to doz generale:

I still think you should respect the vendors wishes and not approach them without having first acertained that they agree to that.

if you have real evidence, as opposed to mere suspiocions, of agents fibbing about offers or making decisions without asking the seller you should report them to their professional body and to Trading Standards because they are breaking the law.
neilh - on 11 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:
Its had 3 offers on it already, is in a decent area, and has only been on since friday.You also said its desirable and few houses on the market at that price.

It looks as though you want the house.

I would have no hesitation - the asking price.At the moment you have a 1/3 chance.

If it had been on for 6 months - different proposition.
Wiley Coyote - on 13 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

If you want the house come over as honest. We've just sold (exchanged last Friday) my late father's house. The buyer beat us down on price, which is fair enough and we accepted but stipulated there would be no negotiation beyond that, regardless of what the survey showed. He either bought at the price or walked away.
Everyone stuck to their word.
Executors are often in a strong position as sellers because they are usually divorced from outside pressures. They don't have another sale/chain hanging on the sale and while the money may be very welcome they tend not to depending on it urgently.
If it makes you feel any better we bought a houe across the valley in Ben Rhydding albeit in a very different climate in the 1980s. It was sealed bids. We offered 60pc over the guide price and got it by 250! Asking price in that area spounds like a bargain.
Mattyk - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: Oh well.. we went to final bids and went over asking price to our limit and still didn't get it.. Glad i went with my gut instinct now. And thanks to everybody for the advice.

Viewing 3 more tomorrow. Including one 'project' just need to convince the mrs.

Mattyk - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: If anybody reads this again.. We have put an offer in on another house. Really like location. house went on market august 2011 and has dropped in 2 stages by 20K and then by another 5K. It is on offer in region of the price they paid 4 years ago.

The vendors have brought a house in France and hubby is there, wife has the kid here and is keen to join him.

So.. we go in with a not unreasonable 9% under. I felt this was a reasonable figure and demonstrated we were serious. The estate agents come back saying rejected offer but the vendor will be prepared to move on price.

What would you do next.. I don't think theres any danger of it being sold in the meantime (as its not sold in 2 years). We could sit tight and let them stew and wait for them to come back.. Or come back with a counter offer soonish. The figure I have in my head is i would be happy with 4% under. I quite like their sofa / fridge so thought I could try and get that in too to sweeten deal (for me).



Dax H - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk: Depends on how much you want it and how much you are willing to gamble.
If you want it and think its worth 4% under then offer that, if your willing to gamble on it then stick at 9 under and see what happens.
mariechen - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

Ask them to make a counter-offer ("What were you thinking/What would you be happy with?), then negotiate from there...
SARS on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Mattyk:

If it were me I'd let them stew. I imagine you can find another house easily enough.
999thAndy on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Philip:
> (In reply to Mattyk)
>
> Are you a first time buyer (or not non a chain).
>
> Offer the asking, then screw them down on price just before completing.

I read your post and immediately thought "there's a bloke I wouldnt want to climb with".

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