/ Accidents - US vs UK attitudes

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I have just been browsing Rock & Ice's website and was interested to note that amongst the header columns "News, Destinations, Photos" etc. there is one on "Accidents" - it makes for interesting (and sobering reading), and builds to a useful resource:

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accident-reports

Do we think we will ever see the like in the UK where such reporting and discussion always appear to be taboo?


Chris
jon on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

This isn't the time and place Chris. Think of the children.
Kevster - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

They'd save some of the crystal ball gazing from an arm chair which happens every time an accident happens.
Timmd on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:I've always been impressed by how accidents are looked at in Rock & Ice, I think it'd be very good if we could have something similar in the UK, or a similar kind of culture of trying to look at accidents objectively for any lessons to be learnt.
Timmd on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

No idea if we'll see the same thing, but if I messed up and had an accident and/or died as a result, i'd want other people to learn from it.

I try and do that anyway really, with life mistakes, but that's going off topic somewhat.
jimtitt - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Disturbing to think you browse R & I, don´t you get a distorted view of the world?
The way it´s done on RC.com with accident anlysis and in memoriam is infinitely better than the way it is on UKC.
redsonja - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Timmd: agreed
Jonny2vests - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to jimtitt:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> Disturbing to think you browse R & I, don´t you get a distorted view of the world?
> The way it´s done on RC.com with accident anlysis and in memoriam is infinitely better than the way it is on UKC.

RC.com or R&I.com?

Jonny2vests - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I think the yanks are good at collecting accident data, but they don't seem to do much with it. They don't seem to have a BMC type body which gathers and analyses data & conducts tests in any sort of formal way, and then produces guidelines & info based on that.

I've been looking for something BMC like since I arrived in Canada over a year ago. I notice the lack of one because the most noticeable consequences (here and in the US) are widespread rumour control & urban myth influencing climbers behaviour, even at reasonably high levels. I've been called out a few times on 'dangerous' practices which are established good practice and common place in the UK.
Offwidth - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

What taboo? The only issues I see commonly aired on UKC and elsewhere are not having discussions right away when relatives and friends are greiving as well as not discussing very sensitive issues based on rumour as full information is not yet available. I've never seen anyone say never discuss (ie after a cooling off period and when the full facts are known).

The other common suggestion is a full accident database. Lots of folk have said the BMC should do this but I don't agree unless someone sponsors the work. I'd rather spare money went to access or dealing with common themes from current mountain rescue logs.
Offwidth - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:

I suspect a lot of US accidents remain unlogged. Is there any actual evidence that the voluntary systems work in even the majority of non-fatal cases?

Calling bad practice that is pretty much OK happens everywhere popular in the world. Genuine bad practice is visible anywhere popular too.

I think the BMC are hard to beat on safety but it's not all bad in the US. The best analysis ever is here from the US and has lots of sobering news for experienced climbers who think they know it all: http://www.friendsofyosar.org/safety/climbingSafety.html



Jonny2vests - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> Calling bad practice that is pretty much OK happens everywhere popular in the world. Genuine bad practice is visible anywhere popular too.

No, its different here. Palm up belaying is still taught at some walls, some people think 'you're gonna die' if you use the rope to construct a belay. Belaying from the rope loop is almost universally taboo. Simul-abbing is common because maybe Bruce Willis might do it like that.

There are experienced people cutting about that are literally 20 years out of date, because there is no 'go to' source. That's not the same as misguided newbies at Stanage. Rumour & heresay is often preferred over fact, Rich Gold will back me up on that.
The Ex-Engineer - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:
> There are experienced people cutting about that are literally 20 years out of date, because there is no 'go to' source.

I would say that the 'better' situation in the UK is undoubtedly due as much to the ongoing hard work of the UK's Mountain Leader Training Boards as to the actions of the BMC .

Lots of people might not directly learn to climb from qualified instructors but there is a definite trickle-down effect from having a well-established UK qualification framework which generates large numbers of advocates of 'good practice' and helps support 'go to' MLTUK publications like Rock Climbing by Libby Peters.
Fraser on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to jimtitt:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> Disturbing to think you browse R & I, don´t you get a distorted view of the world?

Eh? You what??? R&I is way better than any climbing mag we have in the UK.

Jonny2vests - on 18 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> I would say that the 'better' situation in the UK is undoubtedly due as much to the ongoing hard work of the UK's Mountain Leader Training Boards as to the actions of the BMC .


You might be right, but they have structures like the MLTB in place who I assume are good at what they do. Maybe the fraction of people that learn to climb from MLTB is smaller than you think? The trickle down effect from the BMC I think has a larger effect.

Offwidth - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:

"No, its different here. Palm up belaying is still taught at some walls, some people think 'you're gonna die' if you use the rope to construct a belay. Belaying from the rope loop is almost universally taboo. Simul-abbing is common because maybe Bruce Willis might do it like that."

Been there on all those myself in the US and more. In particular add the belay is 'taken' (ie dont come up as we are on the bolts .... with no idea that the f*ck-off crack a few metres to the left above the finish of our route might make a belay). I've also simul abbed... useful for pinnacles but care required ;-)

I've been told in the UK that my body belay would probably result in the death of my second... soloing is completely iresponsible... a single piece tree belay was really dangerous.... told off for not using locking crabs on a belay... the list goes on and on.

Offwidth - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

I think the training boards influence is really positive but affects winter climbing a lot more than trad rock climbing in the UK. Most people see the SPA and the story there wrt trad is mixed ... often good but sometimes the influence from the less well adapted trainees can be worse than nothing (maybe because issues around teaching leading are stretching the scope of the award).
Steve Perry - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: "Belayer Pulls Leader off Ice Climb" gives interesting reading.
Dave Garnett - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Palm up belaying? I've either missed that or maybe it's how I always do it!
John Rushby - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

In Yachting Monthly they do a regular feature whereby readers write in with an account of an accident, epic or some such. They tend to be quite open and honest.

In return they get a couple of experts to comment on how it could have been prevented and or how to then deal with it, remediate the situation etc.

They can be really useful - the deconstruction and observation is great at putting a situation in to context. The one thing they insst on is that there is no witch hunt afte the article has been published.
jon on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Steve Perry:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs) "Belayer Pulls Leader off Ice Climb" gives interesting reading.

I generally try to pull someone off a route if I think they're going to flash it.
Blue Straggler - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to John Rushby:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> In Yachting Monthly they do a regular feature whereby readers write in with an account of an accident, epic or some such. They tend to be quite open and honest.
>
> In return they get a couple of experts to comment on how it could have been prevented and or how to then deal with it, remediate the situation etc.
>
> They can be really useful - the deconstruction and observation is great at putting a situation in to context. The one thing they insst on is that there is no witch hunt afte the article has been published.

In UK freediving circles you are not allowed to say the word "blackout" outside of a course, it seems :-( So nobody gets to learn from my detailed self-analysis of the blackout I had 7m below the surface in 2009.

jonnylowes - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Steve Perry)
> [...]
>
> I generally try to pull someone off

...each to their own
Steve Perry - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Steve Perry)
> [...]
>
> I generally try to pull someone off a route if I think they're going to flash it.

Especially if it's the Mrs doing a harder grade than I can ;-)
John2 - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jon: 'I generally try to pull someone off a route if I think they're going to flash it'

You're reminding me of the story of the first free ascent of Sexus. A well-known climber (I'm not sure who) was determined to climb the line free, and made several unsuccessful attempts. After failing yet again his second asked if he could have a go, and made it through the crux. The original leader was so determined to get the first free ascent that he told his partner he would pull him off if he carried on. He untied and soloed the rest of the route.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> Palm up belaying? I've either missed that or maybe it's how I always do it!

Eh?
Dave Garnett - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:

What I mean is that I don't know what it means. Is it bad? I dare say one or other of my palms may well face upwards sometimes while I'm belaying and it seems to have worked OK so far.
Al Evans on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to John2:
> (In reply to jon) 'I generally try to pull someone off a route if I think they're going to flash it'
>
> You're reminding me of the story of the first free ascent of Sexus. A well-known climber (I'm not sure who) was determined to climb the line free, and made several unsuccessful attempts. After failing yet again his second asked if he could have a go, and made it through the crux. The original leader was so determined to get the first free ascent that he told his partner he would pull him off if he carried on. He untied and soloed the rest of the route.

AS I know and have climbed with all the people involved, I think that is bullshit!
John2 - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Al Evans: I took it from the first ascents list in the current Llanberis guide. I'm talking about the first free ascent, by Dave Hollows, not the first ascent.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> What I mean is that I don't know what it means. Is it bad? I dare say one or other of my palms may well face upwards sometimes while I'm belaying and it seems to have worked OK so far.

Well, as opposed to the normal break hand being palm down and the plate in locked position by default, there is a technique from the dark ages, mostly only ever seen in North America, where the break hand is palm up and the plate is therefore held more open. It's completely daft. There's a vid on you tube somewhere, but I can't find it.
The Ex-Engineer - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> What I mean is that I don't know what it means. Is it bad?

For some unfathomable reason some US climbers using modern belay devices still belay using essentially the same method as if they were using an Munter/Italian hitch or a body belay.

Throughout normal belaying they have their hands 'palm-up', controlling the rope in front of the belay device which they never lock-off, having faith that they are always paying sufficient attention to lock-off quickly in the event of a fall.
Offwidth - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Some then add insult to injury by claiming the 'UK' method is unsafe ;-)

I think its the same anywhere though: people learn things and don't always think them through and those that understand the least rely most on the specific process and are more likley to critisie perfectly valid alternatives. We end up with blase unsafe practice and hypercritism of irrelevant risk differences at the extremes.
bpmclimb - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> What taboo? The only issues I see commonly aired on UKC and elsewhere are not having discussions right away when relatives and friends are greiving as well as not discussing very sensitive issues based on rumour as full information is not yet available. I've never seen anyone say never discuss (ie after a cooling off period and when the full facts are known).
>

This is too vague. How long is this cooling off period to be? Just so I know when I'm allowed to join in discussions about causes of accidents (discussions which in my opinion can be instructive, and have a positive side).

Jonny2vests - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> [...]
>
> For some unfathomable reason some US climbers using modern belay devices still belay using essentially the same method as if they were using an Munter/Italian hitch or a body belay.


Yes, that's a good way of putting it.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to bpmclimb:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> This is too vague. How long is this cooling off period to be? Just so I know when I'm allowed to join in discussions about causes of accidents (discussions which in my opinion can be instructive, and have a positive side).

Normally after some sort of official announcement?
Offwidth - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to bpmclimb:

Even as a regular critic I'm relaxed about that... a few weeks at most unless there is a request from the family or a situation like someone still critical on life support. I also like the UKC news articles that pop up on these issues from time to time. Even a different thread with a more annonymous approach can be OK. The issue is, when these traumas occur additional pressures on suffering relatives and friends from gossips and accusative wild speculators are not clever, at least not from what I've witnessed. People on the forums need to think of the pub test in such situations: if this was said to an upset relative in a bar might they get punched? If so, why not choose not to say it.
Dave Garnett - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer and johnny2vests:

Ah, OK, I understand. I don't do that, despite being from the dark ages of catching pre-metric 100 footers on a palm-upwards waist belay.
In reply to jonny2vests:
>
> Normally after some sort of official announcement?

Does that actually happen?


Chris
Jonny2vests - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Do people make official announcements (of sorts)? Yes, usually. Details form police, press statements from relatives, that sort of thing.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:

You caught a 100ft fall on a waist belay? Do tell.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Dave Garnett - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:

I might have exaggerated. How far is it from the grass at the top of the Ramp at Gogarth to about 10 feet below the first stance do you think?
cariva - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> This isn't the time and place Chris. Think of the children.


Best line ever!

Offwidth - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to cariva:

Mmmmm try: "Think of the Children" Quote - on Google
Eric9Points - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I agree that it's a good idea. Not only would it eliminate a lot of the uninformed speculation that occurs in the absence of facts but it would educate and hopefully prevent a repeat of avoidable mistakes.

I guess the question is where would such reports be published? Perhaps a good place would be the MCofS or BMC websites depending upon where the accident occurred.
oaktree - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to John Rushby:
what would yacthing monthly (and ukc)say about this epic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19622801

ex diver,climber ,caver + my life saver when i was 12 months old
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
>
> You caught a 100ft fall on a waist belay? Do tell.

I did that once on one of my first weekends climbing. The bloke leading went a long way up without much in the way of runners and when he fell one 5mm thread he had put in pulled out, only the rope catching behind a flake saved him. It was single 9mm and the sheath was stripped off for several feet, the astonishingly thin looking core held. As he was a couple of stone heavier than me I ended up swinging on the rope a few feet of the scree and he ended up more or less at the same level, also hanging on the rope.

It was in Llanberis somewhere near a climb called Lea, to its left. It convinced me of the strength of ropes - it was a fairly easy route hence using only one rope, it proves that double 9mm is really very safe, but not single on a rock climb - but for him, alas, it put him off a bit, I don't recall seeing him on a climbing meet again. I held him easily enough on a simple waist belay, no burns, but I was wearing a woolen pullover and an anorak.

Dave Garnett - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I didn't burn myself either, although I did bang my knees a bit. This was on a single rope too, back when university clubs bought those Viking hawser-laid things.

I think a lot of the sting was taken out of it by most of the gear ripping, but fortunately not all. The rope was partly cut through when we inspected it. After both abbing off on it.
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Feb 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Our club still had a few hawser laid ropes at the time but they were being phased out, no one liked them compared to kernmantel. I only mentioned my experience as it amused me to see the way your remark was "questioned" :-) It's amazing how younger climbers seem convinced that the world couldn't turn, nor climbers climb before the present level of sophistication of gear was reached.

I've just finished reading "Mountaineering is Scotland" by W H Murray (christmas present) and it would give many today a fit to read how they climbed as late as after just WW2 - hemp ropes, no (or very few - he mentions one in the whole book) running belays, just long run outs and if it looked tricky bringing you second up nearer the problem! I'm not suggesting going back to that but it does put present day attitudes into perspective.
Jonny2vests - on 20 Feb 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> I did that once on one of my first weekends climbing. The bloke leading went a long way up without much in the way of runners and when he fell one 5mm thread he had put in pulled out, only the rope catching behind a flake saved him. It was single 9mm and the sheath was stripped off for several feet, the astonishingly thin looking core held. As he was a couple of stone heavier than me I ended up swinging on the rope a few feet of the scree and he ended up more or less at the same level, also hanging on the rope.
>
> It was in Llanberis somewhere near a climb called Lea, to its left. It convinced me of the strength of ropes - it was a fairly easy route hence using only one rope, it proves that double 9mm is really very safe, but not single on a rock climb - but for him, alas, it put him off a bit, I don't recall seeing him on a climbing meet again. I held him easily enough on a simple waist belay, no burns, but I was wearing a woolen pullover and an anorak.

Cool story.
rgold - on 20 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:

I haven't seen anyone in the U.S. climbers using the palm-up hand position for quite a few years now. Except for me, when I belay with an Alpine Up.

I think the reasoning might be of interest here, because my preference for palm-up is that I can manipulate my half-ropes much better this way, simultaneously paying out and taking in if needed. I can do it palm-down too, but it is harder, less efficient, and tends to either short-rope the leader or undermine one of the safety features of half ropes by pumping slack into the strand that isn't being clipped. Palm-up with an ATC-style device is wrong, but no problem with the Alpine Up, which locks up just fine regardless of which way your palm is facing.
Timmd on 20 Feb 2013
In reply to rgold: I think not belaying palm up must have passed me by.

I think I switch between palm up and palm down, depending on what the climber is doing and how the rope needs managing.

It's not impossible to lock palm up, will have a look at how I belay though.
jon on 20 Feb 2013
In reply to rgold:

I think Rich, it's because you're the only American who uses double ropes!
Captain Fastrousers - on 20 Feb 2013
In reply to rgold:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> I haven't seen anyone in the U.S. climbers using the palm-up hand position for quite a few years now. Except for me, when I belay with an Alpine Up.
>

Agreed; I haven't seen this belay style being commonly used in the US for about 10 years.
ddriver - on 20 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

The following are exactly my sentiments as an American using an ATC on single or double ropes. Have never not caught a fall either way.

http://www.mazamas.org/your/adventure/nw/belay-brake-hand-palm-up-or-palm-down/

Belay brake hand - Palm up or palm down?


When belaying, one always has a choice in whether to have the brake hand palm up or palm down. Both are acceptable, both are used by experienced climbers, and both have successfully caught many whipper falls over the years! Rather than debating which one is better, it’s more useful to understand the general situations in which one style of belaying may be more appropriate.
• Many climbers prefer the palm down method when belaying a top roped climber, such as when working the moves on a harder outdoor rock climb or in the gym. Palm down can give a greater degree of control over the rope when catching frequent falls, as the fist is more completely enclosing the rope when the hand moves to the braking position.
• The palm up method may be easier when belaying a leader (when the belayer may need to feed out rope very quickly) or when belaying a second from a sitting or cramped belay position. There are some who feel palm up is an easier method to teach to beginners, but both belay styles are simple to learn with good instruction.

Try both techniques, become comfortable with each, know the various pros and cons, and you’ll soon develop your own personal style and preference. By the way, never let anyone tell you one method or another is unsafe or wrong - both are fine, when properly done.

rgold - on 21 Feb 2013
In reply to jimtitt:

> The way it´s done on RC.com with accident anlysis and in memoriam is infinitely better than the way it is on UKC.

Jim is referring to the fact that rc.com has two forums:

Accident and Incident Analysis

"This forum is reserved for polite discussion of specific accidents. Please keep posts on subject and respectful of both the people involved and other users."

In Memory Of

"A Forum where we honor and pay tribute to our fellow climbers, friends, partners and heroes that have passed away. Note that this forum will be strictly moderated."

The intention, enforced by moderation, is to keep accident analysis (and Monday-morning quarterbacking) in one place and expressions of sympathy and tribute in another place.

It has always seemed to me that Americans are safety-conscious in a way that Europeans are not (and I am not claiming this is necessarily a good thing). I wonder if this is an artifact of our not so-distant frontier days, when you really couldn't afford to lose anyone in your small beleaguered community.

Jonny2vests - on 21 Feb 2013
In reply to Captain Fastrousers:
> (In reply to rgold)
> [...]
>
> Agreed; I haven't seen this belay style being commonly used in the US for about 10 years.

I saw it last week at a wall. And someone a while back linked to to an instructional video on you tube of some one teaching palm up.

There's no shortage of discussion about it either on US sites:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=palm+up+belaying&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safar...

Jonny2vests - on 21 Feb 2013
In reply to ddriver:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>

> Try both techniques, become comfortable with each, know the various pros and cons, and you’ll soon develop your own personal style and preference. By the way, never let anyone tell you one method or another is unsafe or wrong - both are fine, when properly done.

Even the article says palm up has less control. So why would you with a modern plate when you can give out rope plenty fast enough. Especially with modern skinny ropes.
ddriver - on 21 Feb 2013
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to ddriver)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Even the article says palm up has less control. So why would you with a modern plate when you can give out rope plenty fast enough. Especially with modern skinny ropes.

"Less control" is not as straightforward as it may sound. Palm up allows more efficient rope management, better fine motor skill utilization, makes it much easier to manage double ropes individually, makes response time for paying out rope faster, makes it easier to stack rope, etc. IOW, 99.9% of rope management actually has better control.

Catching a leader fall can be a bit less straightforward, but only marginally so. Generally, you have some warning that a fall is imminent, anyway. Catching a follower is a wash.

To me what's important is that you understand what you're doing and why.

JimboWizbo - on 21 Feb 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: Immediately bookmarked this website, I'm going to check it daily.

UKC Should definitely do this, I think it would genuinely prevent accidents.
Jonny2vests - on 21 Feb 2013
In reply to ddriver:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> "Less control" is not as straightforward as it may sound. Palm up allows more efficient rope management, better fine motor skill utilization, makes it much easier to manage double ropes individually, makes response time for paying out rope faster, makes it easier to stack rope, etc. IOW, 99.9% of rope management actually has better control.

All of that is just dishwater, you're leaning on issues that don't exist.

> To me what's important is that you understand what you're doing and why.

For sure.
ads.ukclimbing.com
cariva - on 22 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to cariva)
>
> Mmmmm try: "Think of the Children" Quote - on Google

I believe humor is like trad pro…it is all about the right placement. You may save your today’s poor “google bla bla bla”… Hopefully it will be useful in another occasion.

Cheers
Offwidth - on 22 Feb 2013
In reply to cariva:

Placement was excellent but it's a very old joke knowingly told and I'd have at least have hoped for better from a knowing response. Basil Brush would never have said "best line ever!" or for that matter place a perfect nut 2" above a big-bro on an easy protectable route ;-)
bpmclimb - on 22 Feb 2013
In reply to ddriver:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> "Less control" is not as straightforward as it may sound. Palm up allows more efficient rope management, better fine motor skill utilization, makes it much easier to manage double ropes individually, makes response time for paying out rope faster, makes it easier to stack rope, etc. IOW, 99.9% of rope management actually has better control.
>
I can do all the above adequately well in the palm down position. In addition, I can lock off quickly and reliably a falling climber, which is the most important thing.


> Catching a leader fall can be a bit less straightforward, but only marginally so. Generally, you have some warning that a fall is imminent, anyway. Catching a follower is a wash.
>
Since catching a falling leader is of paramount importance, I don't want it less straightforward, even marginally. Regarding getting prior warning of falls, "generally" isn't good enough - it's not 100% and you can't rely on it.
cariva - on 22 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to cariva)
>
> Placement was excellent but it's a very old joke knowingly told and I'd have at least have hoped for better from a knowing response. Basil Brush would never have said "best line ever!" or for that matter place a perfect nut 2" above a big-bro on an easy protectable route ;-)


I am really impressed! You come across as a very smart individual...

Offwidth - on 23 Feb 2013

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