UKC

As above really, is it possible to not feel exhausted after a winter day? does getting fitter actually help, or do you just end up doing harder things further away with the same end result?

also, any tips for a faster recovery?

In reply to JamieSparkes: I don't know but if you do find the answer I would love to here it. As currently sat in work with calfs that feel like rocks.

In reply to JamieSparkes:
Is it the approach or the climbing that gives you the problem?

If its the approach then you could try walking less far, less fast with half the weight you're carrying.

If it's the climbing then you might look at your cramping technique. I don't get calf aches and my mate does. He is fit and goes fell running for relaxation so I don't think gym exercises are the answer. Are you tensing up when you're on front points?

You might try shorter days with short aproach to see if it makes a difference.

In reply to JamieSparkes: Alrite Jamie! I take it you are already aware of the essential battered pizza technique?

In reply to JamieSparkes:
Getting fitter definitely helps! When I first started winter climbing I would feel destroyed after a day on the Ben, but by April 2009 I could easily do the Aonach Eagach under snow followed by a 9 hour Clachaig bar shift and a three hour drinking session...

Of course I have now lost 99% of that fitness again

In reply to JamieSparkes: IMHO experience, being fitter certainly helps. Of course however fit you are, (unless there's an unforseen event) you have the choice of staying well within your reserves, or really pushing it. Eat, drink and sleep well. Clear your pack out of unnecessary stuff and use walking poles if you can.

In reply to JamieSparkes:I've only experience of Lakeland winter days, but drinking a pint of semi skimmed or full fat milk if you do nothing else as soon as you can do would help with recovery, and organic milk perhaps more so, in having omega6 in it.

Cycling Plus reccomeneds a meal with protien and carbs in, of proportions i've forgotten, but milk has become recognised as a good recovery drink too.

If you can do nothing else pack a sig bottle of nice milk for the end?

In reply to JamieSparkes:Appologies for spelling, fingers and brain are half asleep.

In reply to JamieSparkes: Getting fitter definitely helps, but it needs to be specific to the thing you're doing - ie you can be mountain fit and not get aches, but jump on a bike for 2 hrs and be hobbling for days.

I'm currently hobbling around the office after a 9 mile fell run yesterday, something I do 2 twice a year. I need to do it more often!

I've started using Nesquick with milk as everyone says thats good - not sure if its better or not.

In reply to JamieSparkes: I often climb with a massive fatty who gets winded on the walk-in to Stanage, it is a wonder he can make it to Sneachda at all.

In reply to JamieSparkes: Trying carrying your boots and wearing light weight approach shoes with microspikes - did this for 1st time recently. Now a convert.

BW

In reply to JamieSparkes: If you saw Eddy Izzard run 24 marathons in 24 days (after bugger all training) what they did with him was an ice cold bath (for legs) every day.

So just stop on the way down and sit in the snow for 20 mins; preferably without trousers on but that might depend on where you are climbing. If nothing else you now at least have a good reason for sitting down.

Flipancy aside Not sure how 'reliable' but see also here:

http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/sampleworkouts/a/Ice-Bath.htm

In reply to JamieSparkes:

If you've had a good day and pushed to your limits you're bound to feel tired. Enjoy the feeling, you've worked hard to earn it

Eat well, rest, then get out and climb again.

In reply to JamieSparkes: Eat within 45 minutes of stopping exercise was one I hard & use.
I was also inspired by Eddie's ice-bath and now try to make myself stand in a burn or the sea over knee-level whenever I can; it definitely helps, feels great & is easier to motivate myself for than stretching.

back in the days when I was very active, I found getting fitter just meant moving faster. i was always knackered at the end of a day, and still am. Only now I move at a snail's pace and make my days short!

In reply to JamieSparkes:

No!

In reply to Baron Weasel: I tried this in Scotland last week and would have to agree. Made the walk in and out of Creag Meagaidh a breeze and felt much fresher for it.

In reply to JamieSparkes:
In short yes!

Most of all judge your own abilities and fitness and dont be afraid to hold your hand up and look at easier/closer options if need be.
Knees to chesting for a couple of hours each way is pretty tiring stuff.

The better your general fitness the less tired you'll be after a long route, summer or winter.
It follows that youre less likely to damage yourself on the return both the walk back to the car AND the drive home.
That said sometimes accidents do just happen.

Lastly recovery, everyone will have their own ideas and there are 100s of books about training and recovery, but here hears a couple of mine top tips:
Eating during the day will keep yoru energy levels up and means you have less deficit to replace at the end, so eat...
Drinking water through out the day aids digestion and keeps your thoughts clear(see effects of dehydration), I use streams rather than carrying it, so drink water...
After, If its been a big day I might have a High 5 Recovery(or other) shake with milk before bed. Why before with milk before bed? the milk slows dogestion and drip feeds the compound to the body. Works for me.

Have fun

In reply to JamieSparkes:

I am currently sat at my desk thinking the same thing and with the fear of satnding up because I know it will hurt and I will creak like an old person.

My partner just directed me to this thread with the advice I should comment to say after doing The Idwel Stream yesterday I feel like the joys of spring...I don't!

What I do know is how my fitness has improved since I first started climbing, I took up running and then recently swimming and cycling and although I sit here now feeling broken I am also thinking how I wouldn't trade this pain for the awesome day I had yesterday. Everytime I whinge 'I hurt' (and that's a lot) my parner says that 'pain is weakness leaving the body' and while I would never tell him to his face as that pain would be greater...he is right!

In reply to JamieSparkes:
I've had 4 out of the last 5 days on the hill, for the first time in years. Just soloing mind, so no heavy sac. I've felt knackered since the first day. The surprising thing is, once you get going again you feel OK. It's just being in the office that makes you really feel it...

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Hi Jamie

Just climbed Zero gully on Friday then down to the lakes Friday night & up an over Helvellyn on Saturday , then back home to Midlands yesterday AM with a 5 mile run on Sunday.

Being fit or getting fit does really help , however ! , this does not help affect muscle soreness that will affect the legs & or arms , lats etc dependent on what sort of winter day you are doing.

My calves feel it from the front pointing on Zero plus my toes are all bashed from the 7,000 foot of descent on 2 days , try a combination of being or getting fitter ( keeping weight down or losing some as necessary )

PLUS take some anerobic exercise ( free weights , low reps for stamina , high weights & low reps for strength ) plus getting enough good quality sleep.

For me lack of decent sleep is the real killer it seems far worse than the exercise.

Finally over a period of time on a longer trip poor calorific intake will also affect your recovery & your stamina , I lost > 20lbs in the himalayas in 30 days in 1993 when aged 29 due to a combination of not eating enough & stomach illness.

To answer your point I don't think you will do harder things further away if you are fitter you just do more / better things & increase your choices & you will also get a better bang for your buck as you will need less rest days.

have fun , cheers , Sean

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Drink tea until you run out of it.

On the next day out try drinking a Powerade before the route, during and once you get back to the car.

Recent research shows a pint of full fat milk once your over the excercise may work wonders.......

In reply to JamieSparkes: Some folk are fitter than others. Tim Neill from PYB soloed Zero, Obs Buttress, Indicator Wall, Point 5 and Orion Direct today. He had the decency to look a little sweaty at the end. Wonder if he will have DOMS tomorrow?

In reply to JamieSparkes:
As soon as you top out on the last pitch start packing gear into your sack while your mate is untying, it means he'll be stuck with the rope and you carry the much lighter gear rack. This helps on long walk outs I find

In reply to JamieSparkes:

training, diet and efficiency - same as any sport.

In reply to blanchie14c:

Are you sure you've got this the right way round?

In reply to Robert Durran: You haven't seen how little we take sometimes!

In reply to JamieSparkes:

In answer to the original question: No, unless you're taking it pretty easy!

I have recently found that I sometimes get really sore thigh muscles after winter days. It is unpredictable, with little relation to the length of the day (for instance, yesterday I only had a six hour day, but resorted to ibuprufen to help me get to sleep last night) and sets in usually on the descent rather than afterwards sitting in the car or next day. It feels more crampy than normal fatigue, but has no real correlation to my tendency to get thigh cramps after a hard day. Although I am not getting any younger and recovery is a little slower these days, my climbing partners, both younger and older (most of whom I am still faster and fitter than) don't seem to suffer anything similar.

Does anyone else suffer anything similar? Might it be diet related? I can't pin down anything which might cause it.

In reply to AlH: Sounds like a good day out!
Or a good season for a lot of people!

In reply to JamieSparkes: Having to travel through deep powder to reach the bottom of the route can be a killer, especially with a heavy sac. And approach shoes are no good to you. I find that the early start, steady pace on the walk-in and no faffing on the route, especially moving together when possible, all helps to speed up the day and means you can have a leisurely walk back, hopefully admiring the setting sun! Gat that sac weight down to a minimum, as this really makes a noticable difference to how knackered you eventually are/feel.

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Isn't it all part of the fun?

Food and beer never tastes so good and sleep is never so deep as after a long tiring day on the hill.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Have you tried/thought about eating something salty to see if that makes any difference?

In reply to JamieSparkes:
What's the issue with feeling knackered? Part of the game!

In reply to Robert Durran:
I can get full on cramps if I dont hydrate properly. isotonic drinks, salt water etc will keep me going all day.

In reply to Timmd:

Do that.

In reply to david100:

Do all that too.

In reply to JamieSparkes: It does get easier. This summer I made sure I walked up and down a lot of big hills by the steepest route possible. That has made a huge difference to me.

In reply to AlH:

And what did he do after lunch?

I took up hill running a few years ago after I stopped mountaineering and climbing. Since then I've started climbing again and I found the walk-ins that used to completely stuff me years ago now seem quite trivial. I seem to be able to spend the whole day boosting around without slowing down. So being fitter definitely get my vote ....get yerself some Walshes

also, whoever mentioned drinking milk-based drinks for recovery after exercise is absolutely spot on - some have called milk the 'new sports drink' and there's lots of good evidence of this

http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/15

(I've always got a couple of bottles of chocolate Yazoo in my car for the end of the day YUM!)

In reply to AlH:


Very similar to Francois Damilano's link-up in the late '80s (Zero, Sickle, Smith's, Point 5 and Orion). It's difficult just negotiating other teams on these classic link-ups. I heard Tim's had only one day off from climbing in the last month so he'll be in good shape just now.

In reply to George Ormerod:

I just wandered back down and enjoyed the sunshine
Cheers, Tim

In reply to JamieSparkes:

Yes, getting fitter helps, and it helps more if you get fit using the movements you will need. So long walks and climbs with a bag will help as training - though a properly planned weights regime at the gym will supplement that if you are serious.

Eating and drinking properly on the hill will help and speed your recovery too. Read any sports nutrition book, or even "Extreme Alpinism" by Mark Twight and you'll see they recommend eating around 150 calories an hour, every hour starting half an hour into exercise, and drinking as soon as you start to feel thirsty (Tip: cut a tray of fruit flapjack into 150kcal slices, wrap them individually and eat one an hour as you climb. Perfect mix of fast and slow release carbs plus fat. Maybe add nuts for protein too?). That really works for me and I usually feel fit enough for another go the next day. Sports drinks with some sodium in them may work better than plain water for rehydration. Read about it and judge for yourself.

When you get down you'll need to help your muscles repair by consuming protein starting within 20 minutes of the exertion ending. A protein bar, protein shake or just a decent meal will do the job. You'll need some carbohydrates to help the protein get absorbed though.

Finally, if you push your limits, you will feel knackered no matter how fit, fed and watered you are. Embrace that feeling, allow yourself to recover (Tip: take your pulse each morning on waking and the day it returns to within 2 beats of normal, you are recovered) then get out and do it again because that's the way we get stronger.