In reply to Ian Parnell:
> Nice dig Jimbo re Euro holidays. Rather than "weird" I've always found this ethic thing the most interesting aspect of climbing. Climbing is a contrived game where you play by a series of loose rules i.e. ethics. One of the fascinating things about climbing is how different climbing cultures develop these rules to suit their local climbing. What we do in Scotland makes sense for the kind of challenges we face here......
> Well Eric, Jimbo posted several times consecutively. His post of images was separate to the point I was answering - where he seemed to have trouble understanding the point of ethics. As to his examples - I don't think anyone would naive enough to suggest that the Snotter is the first time bare rock has been climbed in Scottish winter.
It wasn't a dig, but rather an obvious point about the variation of ethics by region, and the variability of an individual's ethics when moving from region to region. I too find aspects of ethics fascinating, and generally come down on the pretty conservative traditional line - indeed so much so that I've always regarded mixed climbing something of an oddity. So, I'm not as confused about the ethics as you suppose. Its more an expression of a personal interest in ethics in general, and climbing ethics in particular:
- ethics are formed from a "settling down" of what the community of climbers finds are acceptable standard and rules to them. Those ethics are a reflection of many individual views. It seems to me, at an individual level, many climbers are quite happy to climb dry rock between ice elsewhere in Europe, but I take the point that different ethics develop according to the general nature of the rock, the nature of conditions in an area and also the general temperament of the people too (we Brits have historically been a pretty conservative breed)
- style is also relevant here.. ..while some might agree the style can be approved upon, e.g. with obvious hoar frost on the steep rocky section before attaining the hanging ice, or a complete ice column, that isn't necessarily to be conflated with the question of whether the route is an acceptable FA, and would a full ice column really be the same route?
- in addition to adjusting their ethical standards in different locations, there also seems to be a modification of what is deemed to be acceptable either for different people, different routes or even more weirdly, the perceived value placed on a potential route. So from Henning, we have the kind of apologetic line...
but the Snotter is a long standing last problem for many of those who have shaped winter climbing on the Ben and elsewhere. And for these climbers the challenge was to make the first ascent of the Snotter in perfect style, either as a four star ice column that has touched down or at the very least as a climb with mixed moves on well hoared up rock. Seeing Dave climbing it in a different style, with a section of M-style trad-protected drytooling, feels like cheating.
...which is a view which one can certainly appreciate, but not one that seems necessary for a strict application of ethics, and appears to me to appeal to a new standard in terms of style and ethics, which is specifically: "perfect", and also doesn't seem to reflect the fact that Dave is also definitely one of those individuals who has and is shaping climbing on the Ben. This argument, that it is a last great problem, is also reflected in Simon's and your blogs, but it appears to me to be appealing to an exceptionally rigid application of an ethical standard, rather than a consistent application of a standard
- that of course brings me on to consistency... ...as Henning and you in your blog have acknowledged, there are times one makes a few moves on dry rock, but given Simon's very hard line, and a clear appeal to authority (vis a vis MCofS guidelines and SMC guidebook entries) it seems perversely harsh on Dave when there are routes published on Simon's blog that look at least as equivocal on the photographs provided, for example, particularly, the pretender (VII,9), crooked smile (VII,7), the crux of which appears quite analogous to Dave's ascent of the Snotter, and King of the Swingers (VIII,10), which though a picture from below doesn't look particularly icy or hoary, and I also wonder what might be as a grade for this route:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7491393@N03/8529502848/in/photostream
I started writing this yesterday am, but such as work has been haven't managed to complete it till now. I note that Simon has now posted again, and made explicit that he thinks this is a grading issue, rather than an inappropriately sunny rock for a modern mixed approach. Well the original criticism certainly didn't come across as a quibble about grading issues, especially with comments about modern mixed approaches, not to be recorded guidebook entries, and cheating etc, and b) my problem with consistency still remains. From this point of view I remain confused about the judgements being made.
- the only reason I commented, was that I thought Dave got particularly harsh criticism, despite his openness, and despite what seems to be inconsistent judgements from those commenting.
I'm sure you guys can put me right here, and would request that no blog posts be removed so that the discussion of the ethics can remain and therefore inform upon future discussions (if the problem is with tone, and unwitting insult, I'm sure apologies would suffice) and therefore be illuminating for time to come. Its also a shame that Dave removed his original entry.