UKC

Never understood this. Loads of folk on UKC, who seem perfectly rational normally, seem to have an irrational hatred of football. I know. Few people who dislike football, or who will actively avoid watching football which seems fair enough but there some bizarre and seemingly genuine and heartfelt anger towards the beautiful game on UKC.

Arguments often focus on the following: overpaid, racists, thugs ,idiots, foreigners, overpaid again, sexist, not rugby players.

Any clues as to why this is?

In reply to bouldery bits: I believe its because they're overpaid and not rugby players.

In reply to bouldery bits: There is nothing irrational about having a hatred of football. As for it being the "beautiful game" nothing could be further from the truth

In reply to bouldery bits:

You forgot; lazy...and overpaid

In reply to bouldery bits:What is beautiful about football ? Nothing in my view.

It is overhyped, given too much air time and too many pages in print.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I hate football, but its not irrational. Its hard to like football when the only thing your team has achieved in the last 5 years is successive relegations.

In reply to bouldery bits:

Because they think every footballer in the country earns 90k a week and drives a camo Bentley.

Except most don't.

But I suppose it gives small minded people a feeling of superiority.

Having been at Wembley on Sunday and seeing my team sink 5 nil, I wouldn't have missed it for the world. From seeing my little mate Jake run on as mascot, to the applause from the Swansea fans in response to our non stop singing to the sight of 60,000 fans walking up Wembley Way together. Great stuff.

In reply to John Rushby:

Nice mate. Bradford seem to have a real buzz about them now. Hope promotion happens for ya!

In reply to bouldery bits:

No idea, but put me down for the hate football side, but I'm not sure 'I'm perfectly rational normally'

In reply to John Rushby:

I'm not sure how a family living on £300 per week should view an average premiership footballer's wage of over £1,000,000 p.a.
No doubt trying to get by on amounts like that can make you a bit "small minded". And most people I know living like that don't feel superior to anyone at all.

In reply to bouldery bits:

Playing football is a laugh, and I have no problem with that.

Its the watching of it that is an institutionalised religion, the modern opiate of the masses. Within this institution, and especially the premier league, some are overpaid, but also there are a few racist, misogynist, and thuggish idiots, while others are I'm sure quite lovely. There is nothing beautiful about it, not in the way that nature, visual and performing arts, music and even maths can be truly beautiful. It doesn't seem to inspire anything in those who follow the game, but it does seem to supply an emotional surrogate.

If there is one reason why UKC might have a higher number of people who hate football, perhaps it's because they know beauty when they see it.. ..in the outdoors where nature can be experienced, not within the churches (stadia), or in front of the TV where pundit preachers (football's answer to Jerry Falwell) are waffling about what is an absurd, meaningless and very artificial institutionalised religious phenomenon.

In reply to bouldery bits: I used to love football, and I suppose I still do, I just tend to dislike a reasonable percentage of footballers, mainly for a reason you haven't mentioned in the OP - cheating.

In reply to bouldery bits:

UKCers prefer more honest sports like cycling and cricket.

In reply to bouldery bits.

I think the irrational hatred and bile started way before footballers began earning big money. And frankly if someone does have problems with footballers earning ( a lot, lot) more money than them...well thats jeaslousy and is rather petty.

Admittedly football does get lots of coverage and for a non-fan I'm sure it can seem like the whole country is absorbed by it. Im afraid to say however that from my point of view getting spitty and uppity about football does display a degree of small mindedness.

Sometimes I wonder if those who do get rather worked up about just how much they hate it....well...is it that they just feel a bit left out?

In reply to Jimbo W:


Jimbo...im sorry...but thats utter tosh.

In reply to Pinged:

I dont' like football. It may come from being the lad in a big northern england family who was a bit tubby, and a bit of a black sheep, read books and was a bit on the 'sensitive' side (labelled from quite early on as a bit of a poofter, really). You know the type. Where I came from if a lad didn't like football, there was something 'wrong' with him,

I tried REALLY hard to like it, even managed to get on the junior school team but that was pretty much down to the fact there were very few lads that year and I was last choice. I was rubbish and an embarrassment.

I actually wish I'd had to strength of character to be individual enough to just say 'I dont want to be involved', but peer pressure and wanting to impress the male members of ones family is a lot to overcome for a nervous little kid like I was.

But I just don't get football at all. I don't understand the attraction. I dont understand the anger it generates - I see otherwise rational members of my family back home (Sunderland) develop a seething, vile hatred of people from Newcastle just because they're 'black and white scum', without realising that the football rivalry stems from a history of civil war scuffles and arguments over coal, and football has just become a surrogate for that anger when the original reason has been forgotton. Likewise if youre a Man Utd fan, it seems a law that you have to automatically hate Scousers - again this seems to stem from some long forgotten argument over docks and canals.

When I first moved to Manchester I saw some guy kicking off in the local off licence because the girl behind the counter had given him a blue lighter instead of a red one. He launched it back at her over the counter.

I understand a previous poster likening it to a religion - I do see a few amusing parallels. There's very few kids I see who support different teams to their parents, and I've seen a few friends get uncomfortably aggressive when other people joke with their kids about supporting other teams. Brother in law (liverpool fan), found out that for a laugh, someone had dressed up his baby son in a man utd shirt and posted the pics on facebook. Went f*cking mental and there was a big fall out. I don't understand that.

At the same time I envy people for have that level of passion for footy, where it's clearly a massive bond between them and their mates and family members and where you can tell it bonds generations of them together. I know I'm just focussing on the negative extremes here. But I don't think I'll ever really get it.

And it's a real conversation killer when a taxi driver or barber asks you 'what did you think of xxxxx's game last night' and you reply 'Sorry mate, I don't really follow football' - because thats a cue for 20 minutes of uncomfortable silence.

In reply to bouldery bits:

Because climbers are the most argumentative people you will ever meet.

In reply to Submit to Gravity: Same here to be fair - it's not the game I played as a kid anymore. Add in the costs involved and the lack of terracing and I hardly bother now.

In reply to bouldery bits: Lots of reasons, many mentioned already.

I fail to grasp why fans are more dedicated to the cause than the players they appear to worship (for as long as said player is taking huge amounts of money from their team.... as soon as they go elsewhere though, they are a tw@t).

I also think its nothing more than years of annoyance building up that there is an assumption that everybody loves football, everybody knows something about it and everybody has an opinon on it. I don't, I don't and I don't - so that leaves you feeling weird, being treated as though you are weird or simply having your weirdness ignored as business contacts, taxi drivers, colleagues etc still insist on discussing it with you as though they simply can't believe you genunely have no idea what they are talking about, do not know who player X playes for, have no idea who was playing who last night and barely know what shape ball is actually used..... The 20 minute silent taxi ride may be awkward but worse is the 20 minute one sided conversation that is interupting your peace/reading/thoughts with something you can do nothing other than fake the odd noise back at.

And when the TV is filled with it for hours at a time on at least 2 out of the 5 'main' channels at the same time plus all the alternatives it feels total overkill. And the radio, and the news - the amount of time given over to something that many have no interest in whatsoever feels disproportionate. It may not be as I don't have stats on how many people really appreciate say 20% of the airtime of a news broadcast being football related but when you have no interest that seems like a lifetime. Imagine the outcry if competition level bouldering got as much TV and radio time from the non UKC parts of the country (not that I'd be watching that either ?

In reply to bouldery bits:
I've not been as keen following the footy this season as much as usual, I'm sick of the money aspect now, it isn't about kicking the ball any more. Stories like this simply darkens it even further, WTF is an 18YO doing driving a Merc?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21189221

In reply to Jimbo W:

Gosh!

E

In reply to John Rushby:

This ^^ Especially the feeling of superiority bit - common trait on UKC recently this snobbery.

Glad you had a good do at Wem-ber-ley Rubbishy.
I was at The Stade Velodrome last week having dinner with one of the most hated players in the modern game - who actually turned out to be a very nice guy indeed.

E

In reply to bouldery bits: Because its poo poo with a capital P

and what you have stated.

overpaid, over covered by the media, little talent given the money they are on..no respect in the game Blah Blah Blah


poo poo

not angry about it though ..its just fact

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Shouldn't that say "per month"?

In reply to John Ww:

Average over the whole Premiership.

£1.46 million in 2010

In reply to bouldery bits: I quite like football and when played well, it can be mesmerising.

I just can abide the fact that i cant take my young family to a game because of the behaviour of the fans in the stands. It turns people into hate-filled, sweary, aggressive idiots and its not a place you would want your kids.

On the field is the second matter I have an objection with and that's the diving, shouting at the ref, aggressive players that I dont like.

if it were not for these two factors I think i would like it more.

Arguments such as 'too much airtime', 'too much in print' and 'paid too much' are all weak arguments IMO. The very top players are paid that much because they are at the top of their game and in most walks of life, the top 0.1% get paid very well. Bankers, actors, business people, engineers, architects, doctors for example at the top of their respective fields get paid pretty handsomely.

The presence on our screen and on print are market factors and whilst few dont like it, many do, and that's not going to change. If you dont like football, dont switch on BBC1 at 10:30pm on a Saturday or Sunday or buy The Sun on a Monday or Saturday. Simple.

In reply to bouldery bits:
Just having a chuckle about the 'silent moments' after someone mentions football and you haven't a clue.
I think it was about two years ago, I had to fly a family into The Swan Hotel at Newby Bridge, it was a surprise birthday treat for the Dad of the family. Anyway, shortly before getting back in the Heli, I was making polite conversation with birthday boy and I asked him what he done for a living. Told me that he played football, to which I thought, must be a lowly division as I had no recollection of his face from telly, papers etc.
So I asked him who for.......he gave me a real disgusted look and told me England and Everton! I just replied "Oh right, that's nice."
I honestly had no idea who he was, I later found out from the invoice, Phil Jagielka.........I still have no idea )

In reply to bouldery bits:

Always struck me as being a complete waste of time and money for those who went to watch it. At school, I was honest about it though and when asked what team I suppoerted told the truth and said none. This immediately made you different ! I couldn't stand the game in sports, was always the last to be chosen for teams and always shoved in goal !

I guess this was the case for all team sports, I equally detest cricket and would sooner watch grass grow than a test-match. Rugby is a little different, as I can appreciate the more technical aspects to play but certainly wouldn't enjoy playing it.

I suppose it's group indentification and all that, but there are so many more interesting things one can do with ones time and money. It costs upwards of £40 to watch Manchester United!

In reply to aultguish:

I don't even recognose the name, so I reckon I would have done exactly the same.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: I can do the turning off the telly or not reading the papers - I just wish I could turn off those who can't believe I don't want to talk about it....

I don't treat taxi drivers as wierd for not liking/knowing about climbing or walking - I'd like the same coutesy back.

I've spent years trying to take an interest and be sociable but its tough when something is so pervasive. And I guess I feel at a social disadvantage for not being able to talk about it - regrettably (for me) talking about football and golf are the 2 social glues that pervade business life - go to an office, event, function, dinner, lunch etc and those are the convenient being sociable ice breaking conversations for many that are there. Everybody else just lurks on teh edge feeling uncomfortable and trying to look faintly engaged. Those of us who are not interested are probably resentfull of not having that convenient social balm to fall back on.

So, rationally or not to the OP - 'unresaonably angry' is because of all these things. From where I'm standing I'm 'reasonably angry' about football as it pervades my life and puts me at a social disadvantage no matter what I try to do to avoid it. So, doesn't feel unreasonable to me.

In reply to bouldery bits:

youtube.com/watch?v=OiW0IPrv1Ro&

youtube.com/watch?v=LC-H2wXK4T4&

In reply to bouldery bits:

Because it's fact !

Oh and you forgot childish prima donnas

In reply to Ciderslider: Oh and racists and thugs again. Most of them have a lower IQ than those silly hairbands that they wear.

In reply to Ciderslider: Although I'm sure that it's not all of them (just about 95%).

In reply to bouldery bits: What about a UKC football match like in the old days of Crags magazine ?

In reply to John Dunne:

You should've been on Mick's stag do in font when we had a Burnley/Yorkshire V Peakies match - very good it was.

E

Classic - venting bile and spite about a sport they readily admit to knowing nothing about.

A lot of people on here would make happy bedfellows with Dorothy-Grace Elder.

See the parallel?

I mean, can you think of a sport whereby an alledged wife beater, a drink driver who killed someone and a couple of likely lads who start fights in empty rooms are lauded?

Yes, some footballers leave a lot to be desired, but most (and I used to work for the FA and my bro is an ex pro so I've a reasonable insight) are just blokes earning a living doing what they happen to be good at.

As for them being thick, Don Whillans was not exactly a rocket scientist, and if the haters took the time, they would find that a good number have degrees or profesional qualifications. As David Millar said, sportsmen are not stupid, they are just uneducated since to be successful many have to forego edcuation after 16 to get on.

Anyhow, both Camus and Bohr were professional footballers.

In reply to bouldery bits:

It goes back to piss poor games lessons at school with staff who weren't fit to teach expecting you to stand on a pitch for an entire lesson whilst they ponced around with a whistle. If they possessed half an ounce of coaching skill my feelings could very easily have been different.

The illiterate buffoons who believe that a game can be beautiful only reinforce this feeling!

In reply to Tom Valentine:

That's a strawman - the same applies to film, the City and music. The Premiership is a world away from the other 80 odd teams in the League, that's before you start on the non-league.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I don't want to love football. There's a lot I don't like about it in fact, the violent tribal evalgalism of many fans for instance or the adject lack of sportmanship, but these are both equally true for the top of most sports these days, from F1 to Rugby to cycling.

I want to prefer rugby, F1 or cricket and thoroughly enjoy all of them but there's nothing quite like the grace of a fast break or the excitement and stress of your team being under the cosh with cross after cross coming in before breakig out.

It also does a lot of good for young people in troubled communities (if you're not aware, look at initiative like Arsenal's 'Arsenal in the Community' and similar efforts at other clubs.

As for it not being beautiful - how can anyone purport to tell me what I can and cannot find aesthetic beauty in? There is both the sublime and the beautiful in football.

All said and done though, for most people, footbal is just a game and doesn't mean anything like as much to me as climbing, skiing and the hills do but it does mean a lot to other people which should be acknowledged and respected, even if you don't understand it.

Rushby - I absolutely agree about the parallels between the "footballers are all thugs" view and the view that "climbers are all suicidal egotists and a drain on the emergency services". Both are narrow minded emotional reactions which lack empathy, understanding and any acknowedgement that other people might enjoy different things to those which you do.

Back to work now...

In reply to John Rushby:

Summed up quite well there! Even some of the teams in the Premiership pay their players quite lowly wages in comparision to the big boys!

In reply to hindu


Some may see beauty in it, it's subjective opinion. Different people see beauty in different things. It may be A beautiful game in the eyes of some but it is not THE beautiful game. Think about the way the word is used by those who recite the phrase parrot fashion.

I follow football at arms length, so to speak, for my sins I follow Watford, I used to go and watch a couple of games a year but have not been for several seasons. I cant stand the rampant corruption in the professional game, the 'gamesmanship' of trying to cheat the referee and the utter lack of respect and foul language when said referee does not take the bait, the collapsing on the ground clutching face antics as if there is a sniper is in the stands at the slightest bit of contact, the large minority of moronic fans who simply cant accept that someone might support another team, the segregation of the fans, the police presence, the expense, I could go on.... I think in its raw form it is a superb game that has been dirtied by many of those involved in it. The turning point for me was nearly getting my head kicked in by chelsea fans because I was wearing a red (munster rugby) jersey down the street and because Liverpool were in town that day it gave them license to 'have a go' at me.

Yes, I play rugby, just for a local side, I can get sent off for swearing in the refs general direction let alone at him, we still call him 'sir', if I try and fake an injury in order to con the ref I would get carded and have the wrath and disrespect of my team mates. I can have a few beers and a laugh with the opposition team and fans, I can even stand in the Shed at Glocester, or in the Memorial Ground, or WElford Road, or Adams Park with the 'wrong' colours on and have friendly banter with my neighbours, I have played along side openly gay people and proud of the fact that their sexual orientation is of no issue to 99% of other players out there. Thats why football always comes a distant second to rugby for me. Yes I know not all of football is bad, but I find myself increasingly having to wade through the tw*ts to get to the decent folk and I simply cant be arsed anymore.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

1. blood gate.. and the Aussies have certainly shown rugby is hardly gentlemanly...

2. Thomas didn't feel so sure about Rugby's lack of homophobia.. there probably is little homophobia in football, its not been tested yet as players are too scared to come out.. just like Thomas was which was a reason he was suicidal.

3. Refs I agree. Its a problem but one born from years of abuse and mistrust on both sides.

To Jimbo.. come on, watch Scholes, Iniesta, Zidane.. they play beautiful football.

I love the passion and drama football creates. Look at last seasons final 3 minutes. Even as a United fan that was just an amazing sequence of events and why football remains popular despite its issues.

For me the lack of respect (which is a 2 way process), the FA (corrupt disgusting organisation) and racism are the 3 main issues.

In reply to timjones:

Absolutely and very much my point: We all see beauty in different ways.
For me, it's not in the same league as an early-summer dusk looking over the central Lakes but there's an aesthetic appeal nevertheless.

Surprised no one's fallen back onto Hemmingway/Conrad (attribution isn't to clear):
"There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games"

In reply to hindu: Ha - yes - I actually quiet enjoy football the game (kicking a ball around as a kid when the end result doesn't matter a hoot as hey 'its only a game' and its meant to be fun), Football the 'sport' however was where it all started going wrong.....

In reply to bouldery bits:

Its because (to quote Stuart Lee)

"Anyone who likes football, watches football or has anything to do with football, is filthy reactionary scum"

Happy to help

In reply to IainRUK:

And what happened when Thomas came out? Nothing, a collective shrug and a 'so what', he is still remembered for his rugby not for being gay. Can you imagine the grief any premiership player would get if he came out? Lets not forget what happened when Graeme Le Saux (sp?), a married man of two, who got crucified on the terraces because he was a bit posh, went to uni and read the Guardian, so his must be gay and thus deserved 5000 fans singing 'Graeme takes it up the arse' at every game for a season.

Bloodgate resulted in Dean Richards being banned from the game for two years, the player (name escapes me) being banned, the club fined and total derision from across the rugby world. Rugby is not 100% squeaky clean, but dwarf throwing and blood capsules is not exactly in the same ballpark as footballs board room sponsored fascism in Italy, monkey chanting across eastern europe and Spain, neo nazi fans killing each other.

Not sure what the Aussie reference is to though?? If you are referring to their rugby league teams then yes I agreee with you there, the game is in meltdown there.

In reply to bouldery bits: I say successful troll (surely its obvious to anyone why football is hated)

In reply to Cú Chullain: I know.. so lets see about football..

Australia and fingers and butts.. go google..

In reply to IainRUK:

fingers and butts.. go google..

Best not, I'm in work...

In reply to Cú Chullain:

Tom Williams. back Playing for quins now after his ban.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I have a season ticket for Dundee United and have done for 15 years my weekends alternate between fitba and hills.

Not in the least bit interested in EPL or Champions Legaue though but I do like English lower league, Exeter being my English team.

People like to come up with all sorts of reasons as to why they hate football - footballers intelligence, wages, social responsibility, etc but the plain facts are they were weirdos and excluded as youngsters to have to take up ' alternative' sports.

I forgot to mention the irritating attitude by commentators, team managers et al that football is more important than anything else.

In reply to bouldery bits:

Not anger, but it really is rather overblown and shoved in your face and also the attitude of the fans disappoints me.

e.g. 1 when the bbc updated their home page for mobile users, rather than being able to customise sport to the ones you are interested in you now get a predominantly football oriented service , or perhaps disservice.

E.g. 2 when one of my very reasonable friends who supports, i think,hereford posted on his Facebook page that they were going down and probably into administration owing to a missed penalty and how he was disappointed, someone thought he was an arsenal fan (arsene wenger had complained about a penalty decision the same week) and started mouthing off about they were all ***** scum anyway and ... Etc you get the idea. The vitriol between the fans, dressed up sometimes as 'banter', but generally actually isnt at all, and the way they speak to each other is plain nasty. It's a small proportion that tars the whole supporting population...

In reply to Fredt:

With honest heroes like Armstrong?

In reply to bouldery bits: I like football. I don't like the wilful ignorance and thuggery of some fans; I love the intelligence, wit, humour, fairness and enthusiasm of many others. I dislike the arrogance, crass materialism and narrow focus of some professional footballers; I am amazed at the commitment, intelligence, humility and generosity of some others. (Graham le Saux, the secret footballer and even, incredibly, Joey Barton who regularly writes in the Big Issue spring to mind.)

My eldest son has been an enthusiastic fan and player for most of his 34 odd years, it's given him achievements, an active sport, a great circle of mates, and 'traction', - going to new places, meeting foreign fans, objectives to plan his leisure around - much the same as I've received from climbing.

Loathing something you really don't know much about is a bit daft really, and dismissing something that so many seem to get genuine pleasure and excitement from without at least trying to understand is just plain ignorant.

In reply to Al Evans: Er ... I would have thought you would have spotted that by including cricket he was being ironic. Bit slow today, Al?

In reply to bouldery bits:

I think another factor is the weird tribalism that goes with football, it's supposed to be a sport, but there are many fans who instead of wanting to see a good game, seem to want to see their team's rivals loose regardless of who they are playing (I note London clubs are bad for this, as are two club cities like Liverpool and Manchester) as well as a strange hatred of anyone who supports their club's rivals.

The fact that the inflated wages in football, and associated television rights costs impact the ability and cost for me to watch other sports is also rather annoying (sky sports for example costs a fortune, primarily because they show the odd premiership match) as well as diverting funds to an already rich sport.

I understand that players who play for conference clubs etc don't get massive wages, but if you looked at other sports these are still massively higher at a similar level e.g. compare wages of Hockey players (is it even a pro sport?) Rugby players, Cricketers, Cyclists, who are playing in their sport's equivelent of the championship against Championship wages.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Joey Barton, he's a hot headed wanker who's served time for assault. A good role model or inspirational figure he is not.

In reply to Jimbo W: ... and then he goes and writes thoughtful, insightful and compassionate pieces in the Big Issue.

I don't understand it either, but there seems to me to him than just a thug (though he has significant form, I grant you.)

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

He spoke eloquently on Newsnight too, with Paxo, and then a couple of weeks later was in some form of trouble again (I forget what).

In reply to argyle_dude:

That's actually quite an achievement and something my team (Leeds United (Boo Hiss)) didn't mange but not for the want of trying.

As for people on here getting all unreasonable about football? They do that about lots of things it's the herd mentality and a sense of inverted snobbery.

In reply to mark burley:
Sorry just snobbery without the inverted bit.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Lost it on the pitch again. Plays for Marseille now - living in Cassis with his family and hoping this is a fresh start for him.
You do know about his background don't you Jimbo? Not like you this

E

In reply to Enty:


Yep. Explains alot.


Isn't it? Its pretty consistent. I don't worship or excuse any of these people whose behaviour I think can be explained, and neither do I think they should be role models. But I do think that the law applies equally to them, while thinking there but for my good fortune have I not ended up in similar circumstances and thus thought that some care, attention, and hope is nevertheless due to these people, and not unremitting condemnation. I certainly wouldn't want them to be role models.

In reply to bouldery bits: I think if you gave the Refs the same power as Rugby refs, you'd have a short spell where there would be 7 players per side left at the end of 90 mins then it'd settle down and you'd get a step change.
Put in the 10m rule for dissent, ban the manager from the ground if he dissents (Managers are the major issue in all of this in my mind).
Sin bins are also good.

I liked football but barely watch it now for all the reasons mentioned.

In reply to IainRUK:

I agree with all that, except about cheating. That's what really puts me off football these days.

In reply to Enty:

He's a strange character.. complex..

One minute a nasty thug, then reformed character, can speak well, can act well, can be a disgrace. Seems that Marseille is keeping him in check but Beckham had a stormer against him the other night.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I can't say that I'm angry about football; more that I couldn't really care less about it, or most organised team sports for that matter.

I do see the unfortunate effects of tribal rivalry (and the associated policing costs) that football seems to instill, more so than other sports.

For genuine football fans, the ticket prices for Premier league clubs seem rather steep these days.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

Worth noting that the sanction is applied throughout the game, Sergio Parisse (arguably one of the current worlds best) got a 40 day ban (10 days suspended) for swearing at a ref in a recent league match. As a result he misses 3 6 Nations matches this season.

As with Bloodgate these things do happen but are hardly common in the game; when they do occur they are dealt with, not always ideally, but far more effectively than seems the case with football.

I think the Aussie reference is to Rugby League incident.

In reply to Horse: Thats the main plus for me.. consistency..

The FA do themselves no favours at all with being so appaulingly inconsistent.. even when they relook at incidents..

I can understand poor consistency by refs in the heat of the movement, to a point but there is still too much randomness.

But there is FAR more communication in rugby. Even before a season you'll get a heads up on whats allowed and what is being tightened up. I remember one year they wanted to sort out flankers who weren't binding on, so you were told and it happened..

In football though, you are told you can swear by some refs. Just not at them. Swearing on the pitch is pretty much OK in most games, 'Ref f*cking come on!' would often be OK.. yet 'Ref f*ck off'.. and you could walk.. and 'Ref you effing ****' and you will walk..

In Rugby none of the above would be allowed.

But most refs do differentiate between sudden pressure release/fustration and more sustained or aimed abuse.

In reply to captain paranoia:

That happens in other sports where football isn't dominant.. so in australia rugby league has issues.

In reply to IainRUK:


I think he's pretty much a sociopath, or at the very least antisocial, which of course does not exclude him being rationally intelligent and articulate, which he clearly also is.

In reply to John Dunne:

I scored a goal in that match , as I recall the Cream Team won 3-0. But it was played on the pitch at Stoney Middleton so I guess we were at Home. We never got round to the return.

In reply to bouldery bits:
I hate watching these business programs on telly, the good thing is though, whenever football comes on you can normally find some sport on, on one of the other channels.

In reply to Jimbo W:

Couldn't be further from the truth.

E

In reply to bouldery bits:

I have no problem at all with football. It's the hoards of f*ckwits outside my house every sunday I have a problem with

In reply to IainRUK:

It is not just the swearing any backchat to the ref in rugby is likely to get some or other immediate sanction, it doesn't happen that often. Watch MOTD and it is pretty much guaranteed that you won't have to wait many minutes to see the referee being abused with impunity.

In reply to Enty:


Really? Well certainly somewhere between borderline and antisocial.

In reply to bouldery bits:

This:

youtube.com/watch?v=xN1WN0YMWZU&

And this:

youtube.com/watch?v=MusyO7J2inM&

Football doesn't make me angry as such, but the culture around it really just turns me off.

In reply to tspoon1981: That made me laugh out loud.

In reply to bouldery bits:

Perhaps it's because they're Chelsea fans...

In reply to John Rushby:

My feelings are exactly the same regarding film, City and music.

In reply to MattJP:

If the average premiership wage is over £1 million pa, very few of them are struggling to make a living.

In reply to John Rushby:

What would happen if all the Premiership players left the game? If they were replaced by Championship players earning considerably less, would the game really be any less entertaining? Would fewer people pass through the turnstiles as a result?

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Championship attendances would suggest so.

In reply to Horse:

As said thats a two way street..

I've disagreed with a ref in Rugby.. had a few words that I thought they were wrong.. politely enough. But also when I see a rugby ref in the bar after the game if he's not got a drink you offer to buy him one, have a chat, talk about incidents etc..

In football if you see the ref, offer to buy him a drink, almost everytime they say no.. as though they are so suspicious of you, or just above you. There's still a master pupil relationship in football..

At least in rugby most refs have decent experience.. in football most refs are just failed players still bitter about being picked last..

Knock a ball at a ref and watch them control it.. most have no ability. I'm not saying be ex pro but many have almost zero experience of being on a pitch. That's rarely the case in rugby.

Obviously its now so bad ex players won't go in, so its now a vicious circle. There are good refs, but far too many bad refs. This isn't a sudden thing either this has been building for 20-30 years at least.

In reply to Oujmik: `it's on terrestrial TV for 2 hrs a week? 3 most?

Eastenders must be on more..

In reply to bouldery bits:

I've analysed it and find that my feelings towards football are similar to my feelings towards organised religion.

Both have a greater degree of influence in this country than I think they deserve.

Of course that's just,like, my opinion. Man.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Yes... look at attendances in places with few good footballers in their top league.. say Scotland..

In reply to IainRUK:


Ok. I had a quick look and the only piece i could find with any adjustment for population etc was this which used percentage of population and put Scotland ahead of England.

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2012/04/02/revealed-the-most-dedicated-...

In reply to DaveHK:

i would broadly agree. I am happy enough for people to like their football or religion but i would prefer them not to share it with me and, depending on the day I am having, might come across as "unreasonable" if someone tries.

In reply to dissonance: OK, surprising but also Scottish games are cheaper.. so less money coming in.. people are willing to pay to watch the top players..

The premier league is financially a huge plus for the country. I thinK I read that of the 60 million a year spent on grass routes in england.. a third is from the FA.. a third each from the Premier league and the football league..

I do see the policing argument costs. I wonder how long til thats all privatised..

In reply to dissonance: Clubs must constantly run models on ticket prices and attendances..

But we have a superb product in the league. I would never try to watch a chamionship game if it was on TV.. yet if I hear its a big premier league game, or el classico.. I'll watch it.. I think many will be the same..

In reply to IainRUK:

i did think of mentioning that the games are cheaper but then again that is, potentially, an argument for what Tom V was asking, whether more people would pass through the turnstiles or not.
I dont think it is clear either way.


you couldnt in all cases though could you? There was a thread about potentially moving to Carlisle on here this week, which brought back the memory of, after walking Hadrians wall, arriving at Carlisle railway station to catch a train and seeing a shitload of cops formed up in ranks outside geared up for a proper fight (riot gear, dogs, some with tazers etc).
Apparently for some football match (i was just happy that the platform i went to was the one minus the cops marching around in case it did kick off).

In reply to dissonance: Get a thousand young men with a beer or two in their bellies and you have a dodgy situation.

That's life, been so since forever, nothing to do with football.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

A good read about all this stuff back in the 80's is Perry Boys.

E

In reply to Pinged:

Same as bankers bonuses then

In reply to Beat me to it!:

Or hypocritical. If you ballsed up at work and someone then offered you a million quid would you give it back and say "na I don't deserve it!"

E

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


apart from its a clear focus point. Anyway i was replying to IainRUK comment about privatising the policing. cant see it working outside the stadium, although i think some clubs have to cough up some money for it.

In reply to bouldery bits:


I'll go for the jugular on this and say it's a class thing. Climbers are predominantly middle class or above and football is a working class game. Having your head in the clouds but also up your own arse at the same time is the prerogative of the well off or the deluded dolite.

By the way i'm not too attached or precious about my above comment so feel free to rip it to bits.

In reply to bouldery bits:


Football

youtube.com/watch?v=VF_uOgyBK1c&

In reply to Sebastian Fontleroy:


ok, thats easy enough. If your claim had anything to it* then we would see more people arguing against football rather than supporting it on this thread.
What do you reckon it will be?


*i cant say the overall claim seems that supported really. I am an outlier in my social and work group that I aint a fan of football and yet I am probably closest to working class out of the lot. Oh and my brother is a serious football fan.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Get a thousand young men with a beer or two in their bellies and you have a dodgy situation.

That's life, been so since forever, nothing to do with football.

Doesn't seem to happen at Rugby matches though...

In reply to Enty:

Or "Among The Thugs" by Bill Buford

In reply to MJ:

yes it does.. as said in countries where football isn't dominant the hooligans go to other sports.

In reply to IainRUK:

The days of the football hooligan are long gone. The 70s and 80s were bad but in the last couple decades football in the uk has become pretty much trouble free. Ive been going 20 odd yrs and i have never see any trouble. Today i am going with my 70 year old uncle.

Yes...lads will have a beer and a sing song and yes a lot of these lads will be from the other side of the tracks to most of the climbing community. They may look a bit scary and they might use swear words! But that doesnt make them hooligans and anyone who still thinks hooliganism is a problem in this country needs to wise up a bit.

As for the behaviour of some footballers...well its the same as any workplace....everywhere has its dickheads, its just that the dickhead footballers get on the news.

In reply to Pinged: I do actually think its coming back.. there is now a glorifying of the 80's hooligans.. films.. books..

I do agree its much more of a family game and generally much more polite.. its made huge strides, but I do think we've had a wobble and need to get on top of it again..

Clubs, Man U and Liverpool have been good at this more recently in their rivalry, have to lead their fans and set standards to what is OK.. both sets have a minority who are a disgrace at times and the clubs have to come out against that.

In reply to bouldery bits: what's actually more interesting is how grown men analyse a game the decisions, the players, the results and all its implications to the nth degree.

In reply to xplorer:
No they're not.

Ball games (not Sports) especially kickball, are a banned subject on the Motorbike Racing Forum that I Mod on.
Climbing is readily discussed by the few climbers that also race, and other members are often keen to ask questions like, 'who puts the rope up there', 'have you ever climbed Everest' and 'how do you knock those spikes in?' etc, etc

In reply to bouldery bits: I quote and agree with bill bailey "bunch of borderline overpaid idiots shepherding a bit of leather into an outdoor cupboard"

The bloody "game" is rediculous, all of the buggers should be made to play for 300 quid a week, and compulsory attendence to play rugby with our top lads, THEN they can complain and learn what pain is.....

dont get me started

In reply to bouldery bits: im not an avid watcher,but will at times.my family are football mad.my uncle was a goalie for vale and my grandad played for man u.
footballers are very good athletes and you can bet the vast majority would out climb most on here on their first day on the rock.

In reply to IainRUK:

just a couple of points. clubs have to pay for match day policing in and around the ground.

english championship attendances would seem to suggest that the crowds are there even outwith the epl.most people will go to watch their team regardless of the 'quality' of the players as long as there is a winning team.


the comparison with scotland isnt really valid. crowds per head of population in scotland are amongst the highest in the world but scotlands population is hugely centralised. so we have teams in the spl from perth,paisley,inverness,motherwell and dingwall. cant really compare them with manchester liverpool or even smaller towns like wigan.

In reply to dissonance:

Ooh dissonance, your reply cuts through me like a minor 2nd. I feel torn to shreds like a Psycho shower victim.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I'm 55 and I've never been to a football match in my life and as of yet for various reasons never managed to watch a match on TV in full.

I genuinely don't get football as an entity, couldn't give a monkeys re over paid footballers etc etc . However my only experince of the players is from MUFC and they are all complete knobs when the drive down the road from their training ground and don't slow down for the horses in their cars., though this is counteracted by the chaps on the CVTV who open the barriers for the horse.

That's as near to a rant I can muster over football YAWN

In reply to nbonnett: But you only notice the bad players..

Those that behave go unnoticed.

In reply to nickyrannoch:

Most people go to games regardless?

Sorry that is not true... look at Hulls attendance? Bradfords? Wednesday?

In the UK we like good football... not just winning.. we like to be entertained.. even Fergie has moaned at United fans for sitting their quiet whilst we grind out a 1-0.. as they want barnstorming attacks..

Even when they are winning lower leagues they are much less than when at the top..

Re your last point.. thats true.. thats good and bad.. well badish but teams like Ross County will simply never vie for europe like aberdeen have.. I watch Brechin as my parents have a place near by.. I think one of the smallest clubs in league football according to population base.. its superb that they can stay and even look for promotion..

In reply to IainRUK:

Bollocks, not one of them slows down for the horse , I tried to turn the horse to kick the Bentley the other day ,

Off track and in reflection , but I used to play chicken in my Freelander on the speed bumps in worsley with Ryan Griggs in his Bentley in the morning , I wud be going to my factory n he had dropped his kids off at school ( or shagging his sister in law ) , I'd hit the speed bumps at 40 mph and C the whites of his eyes as we played chicken.

So on reflection I suppose I'm no different to the horse haters at Carrington

In reply to Redsetter:

In the bottom 2 leagues many are playing for 300 quid a week.

It might look ridiculous to you, but to the man on the Clapham omnibus so does climbing up when you could just walk round.

In reply to nbonnett: That may be the secret of a 25 year top level career.. morning sprints..

Giggs has a dubious history but he has done so well.. I thought at 32-33 he was finished.. inspirational...

In reply to John Rushby:

Thats the problem..

If you have a brain why work for 300 a week.. when you can earn double that n another job and earn 80-150 in non-leagues..

Its why lower league footballers are often thick as pigshit.. at least you get some smart top level pros.. Scholes.. McManaman..

In reply to IainRUK:

Inspirational !, I think your bar pole levels a little low

In reply to nbonnett: Playing as a pro for 24? years.. most successful british footballer ever? as an athlete.. inspirational... almost 1000 games.. how many other outfield players can match him.. as a pcy left winger he has evolved incredibly..

Aye he shags fit women.. its a weakness.. but glass houses and all that..

In reply to Redsetter: "I quote and agree with bill bailey "bunch of borderline overpaid idiots shepherding a bit of leather into an outdoor cupboard"

There is nothing more tedious and unimaginative than this type of comment
Rugby players "bunch of repressed homosexuals shepherding leather egg around a field"
Christians "bunch of ghost worshippers"
Climbers "bunch of .... insert your own hilarious endings here.

In reply to nbonnett: 'I'm 55 and I've never been to a football match in my life'

Ah well, there you go. Go to a decent football match just once, get as close to the action as you can, and you will realise that football on TV gives about as accurate an impression of the game as watching Cliffhanger does of climbing.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: I think i must be the only person who doesn't like football simply because i find it an unexciting and boring game. I remember many years ago my football mad mates told me that to appreciate it properly you had to go to a first division match and see it first hand, soak up the atmosphere etc. Apart from the game of cards we had on the bus going to the match the rest of the day was an anti climax for me, i really don't find anything interesting in the game but can see there is skill involved in playing at a high level.

In reply to jonathan shepherd: I was dragged down to see Forest when it was being managed by ole Big 'Ead, and I remember 1) the size of the blokes, and how physical it was - you get no idea from the TV that these blokes are built like brick sh*thouses and are running at each other - and avoiding each other - with the momentum of express trains, 2) the courage - being down 2-nil and still competing every ball, every pass, despite the odds being so much against them, and 3) the human drama, played out in public - Cloughie identifying Stuart Pearce as the culprit, and taking him off the park in a rage, publically holding him responsible for the team's performance. Everyone in the ground knew what had happened, everyone sympathised with Pearce but understood what Clough was doing.

They went on to win, btw.

In reply to bouldery bits:

I get unreasonably angry about football because I'm a Wolves fan.

That and ticket prices, which have screwed the normal man out of the game & handed seats over to those with more money than sense. This is nicked from a mate's FB page:

Match ticket at Arsenal £94.50
Season ticket at Bayern Munich £96
State of the art new modern stadium, 69,000 capacity, and this is Bayern
Club President Uli Hoeness on the clubs season tickets. One third of them -
12,500 - are sold for £104. This is apparently made possible by selling
2,100 corporate seats for £7,000.

"We could charge more than £104. Lets say we charged £300. We'd get £2m
more in income, but whats £2m to us ? In a tranfer discussion you argue
about that sum for five minutes. But the difference between £104 and £300
is huge for the fan. We do not think the fans are like cows, who you milk.
Football has got to be for everybody. Thats the biggest difference between
us and England".

I'm from Miseryside. Wife, Daughter, and Daughter's Boyfriend (and all his family) support LFC.

Me and my Son, we prefer Climbing.

That said, we went to Liverpool of Saturday afternoon, and on the way back I foolishly ended up in crowds of Everton Supporters one thier way to get the train home at Kirkdale Station. Hundreds of them. It was like a swarm. Actually made me quite impressed. All these blokes, week after week going out and supporting something they believe in.

In reply to bouldery bits:
It's a great game and will occasionally watch a match if I get drawn in - and have agone to a few with my lad. However I increasingly get turned-off by the constant appealing for fouls/diving/play-acting aspects it just seems part of the culture to appeal for anything..so tiresome