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I want to start using this training program. There are a few parts I don't quite understand
I have a beast maker and some weights I can climb solid v8 and have a fairly good finger strength. Any idea what starting weight I should begin with what size hold and for how long and how much in a session. There seems to be alot of strength gain from heavy weight on bigger holds? I need to keep this simple then I will stick to it!
I have a beast maker and some weights I can climb solid v8 and have a fairly good finger strength. Any idea what starting weight I should begin with what size hold and for how long and how much in a session. There seems to be alot of strength gain from heavy weight on bigger holds? I need to keep this simple then I will stick to it!
In reply to sip a cup:
Lots of discussion of this on UKB.
'Sasquatch' provided a good summary:
'Lopez Protocol:
Cobbled together from various posts on her blog, the following protocol seems to be what she espouses.
Pre-requisites:
1. You've been climbing for more than 2 years
2. You can hang an 18mm edge for at least 35 seconds
If you meet these pre-requisites, then the next step is to test how much weight you can add to reach a maximum hang time of 13 seconds on a 14-20mm edge (choose based on your ability).
The workout:
Warm-up 10-15min
• Warm up Moving the joints of upper body, shoulders, elbows, neck and fingers;
• Following with 2-3 easy traverses for 2 to 5 minutes
• Followed by 2-3 boulder problems with increasing difficulty; or several progressive sets on easy holds of the hangboard if we are at home
Progressive sets: 10-15min
• Hang 10 sec with 40-50% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Hang 10 sec with 80% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Hang 10 sec with 90% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
Main Workout: 10-20min
• Hang 10 sec with max weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Repeat 2-4 more times.
That’s all – This workout takes in general 30-45 minutes total from start to finish.
The day before is always a rest day for fingers and pulling muscles. It is OK to climb or train other aspects than max finger strength later that day, or the next day.'
Lots of discussion of this on UKB.
'Sasquatch' provided a good summary:
'Lopez Protocol:
Cobbled together from various posts on her blog, the following protocol seems to be what she espouses.
Pre-requisites:
1. You've been climbing for more than 2 years
2. You can hang an 18mm edge for at least 35 seconds
If you meet these pre-requisites, then the next step is to test how much weight you can add to reach a maximum hang time of 13 seconds on a 14-20mm edge (choose based on your ability).
The workout:
Warm-up 10-15min
• Warm up Moving the joints of upper body, shoulders, elbows, neck and fingers;
• Following with 2-3 easy traverses for 2 to 5 minutes
• Followed by 2-3 boulder problems with increasing difficulty; or several progressive sets on easy holds of the hangboard if we are at home
Progressive sets: 10-15min
• Hang 10 sec with 40-50% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Hang 10 sec with 80% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Hang 10 sec with 90% of the total added weight. 3-4 min rest.
Main Workout: 10-20min
• Hang 10 sec with max weight. 3-4 min rest.
• Repeat 2-4 more times.
That’s all – This workout takes in general 30-45 minutes total from start to finish.
The day before is always a rest day for fingers and pulling muscles. It is OK to climb or train other aspects than max finger strength later that day, or the next day.'
In reply to John Gillott: Seems like a lot of rest time compared with very little time actually hanging, is this really that effective?
In reply to sip a cup: Great! That makes sence.
This process is done three times a week. after time when that excersize gets easy. stick to the same weights But use smaller holds.
This process is done three times a week. after time when that excersize gets easy. stick to the same weights But use smaller holds.
In reply to sip a cup:
Two workouts a week is ample and more usual. Remember you should have a rest day prior. Doing the workout 3 times a week would require 3 rest days as well leaving only 1 spare day for anything else.
> This process is done three times a week.
Two workouts a week is ample and more usual. Remember you should have a rest day prior. Doing the workout 3 times a week would require 3 rest days as well leaving only 1 spare day for anything else.
Do you only do a single grip type then? Presumably four fingers open?
In reply to Siderunner:
No. Strict half crimp to begin with the weighted hangs.
She does say there is the option/recommendation to use open hand if moving to the phase of hanging small edges unweighted at your max especially if you have a history of finger injury (which Eva has).
Crimps have had a bad press and the pendulum went too much the other way. The half crimp (ie joint angle about 45deg) is no more or less risky than open. Neither is risk free. A closed crimp should be avoided as it is harder on the joints.
No. Strict half crimp to begin with the weighted hangs.
She does say there is the option/recommendation to use open hand if moving to the phase of hanging small edges unweighted at your max especially if you have a history of finger injury (which Eva has).
Crimps have had a bad press and the pendulum went too much the other way. The half crimp (ie joint angle about 45deg) is no more or less risky than open. Neither is risk free. A closed crimp should be avoided as it is harder on the joints.
In reply to shark:
Interesting, I always thought a half crimp was joint at 90 degrees. Did that recent Chris Parsons Webb BM video not suggest that too?
> (In reply to Siderunner)
>
> The half crimp (ie joint angle about 45deg) ....
>
> The half crimp (ie joint angle about 45deg) ....
Interesting, I always thought a half crimp was joint at 90 degrees. Did that recent Chris Parsons Webb BM video not suggest that too?
In reply to Fraser:
Pictures of each at bottom of this article http://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20130122_1
Pictures of each at bottom of this article http://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20130122_1
In reply to John Gillott:
I really hope these people know what they are doing. It's difficult to see how they can, since they have no idea of what the long-term effect of this is likely to be on finger joints.
One of the big advantages climbing has over most forms of strength training is that it's body-weight limited. My impression is that training regimes like this have come and gone a few times over the last 20 years (pliometrics, anyone?) but the general rules seem to be that regularly hauling much over your bodyweight is a bad idea, and deadhangs are a bad idea.
I really hope these people know what they are doing. It's difficult to see how they can, since they have no idea of what the long-term effect of this is likely to be on finger joints.
One of the big advantages climbing has over most forms of strength training is that it's body-weight limited. My impression is that training regimes like this have come and gone a few times over the last 20 years (pliometrics, anyone?) but the general rules seem to be that regularly hauling much over your bodyweight is a bad idea, and deadhangs are a bad idea.
1
In reply to Dave Garnett:
No training is risk free. With an open mind, knowledge, commonsense and some occasional help risks can be minimised and injuries recovered from. Weighted deadhangs can give outstanding finger strength gains. Ive not had any injuries or joint trouble doing them on and off for 9 months and I've gone a bit beyond the safer practices advocated by Eva. Not to say that will apply to everybody.
BTW plyometrics can be useful supplemental work but the application of that sort of power is very limited for climbers but still used by the cutting edge .
No training is risk free. With an open mind, knowledge, commonsense and some occasional help risks can be minimised and injuries recovered from. Weighted deadhangs can give outstanding finger strength gains. Ive not had any injuries or joint trouble doing them on and off for 9 months and I've gone a bit beyond the safer practices advocated by Eva. Not to say that will apply to everybody.
BTW plyometrics can be useful supplemental work but the application of that sort of power is very limited for climbers but still used by the cutting edge .
1
In reply to shark:
I'm sure you're right and my training has been entirely inconsistent and unscientific. I was thinking more in terms of 9 years rather than 9 months though. Or 19 years or 29 years...
I'm sure you're right and my training has been entirely inconsistent and unscientific. I was thinking more in terms of 9 years rather than 9 months though. Or 19 years or 29 years...
In reply to shark:
Your age is relevant. I'm a few years older than you and have managed to stay injury-free (barring a few tendon tweaks) and fairly active largely, I think, through having fortunate genetics (light and fairly strong without doing much to deserve it) and a lifetime of under-achievement!
Recently I am having to watch my weight and push myself a bit more (mostly because of work and family commitments) and for the first time I'm starting to pick up finger and elbow problems. Maybe it's just age but I have a feeling it's because I'm trying to do stuff I used to be able to do when I was a bit lighter (I'm just over 10st now and I think I could really do with being closer to 9).
Your age is relevant. I'm a few years older than you and have managed to stay injury-free (barring a few tendon tweaks) and fairly active largely, I think, through having fortunate genetics (light and fairly strong without doing much to deserve it) and a lifetime of under-achievement!
Recently I am having to watch my weight and push myself a bit more (mostly because of work and family commitments) and for the first time I'm starting to pick up finger and elbow problems. Maybe it's just age but I have a feeling it's because I'm trying to do stuff I used to be able to do when I was a bit lighter (I'm just over 10st now and I think I could really do with being closer to 9).
In reply to Dave Garnett: [citation needed]
So olympic weightlifting and power lifting is detrimental to your health?
So olympic weightlifting and power lifting is detrimental to your health?
1
In reply to as646: (Sorry, that was in reply to the comment how pulling anything over bodyweight is a bad idea)
In reply to as646:
I don't have the statistics handy but I don't think it's terribly good for you. That wasn't really my point though. I don't think the grip used in weightlifting is quite the same as deadhanging a 14mm edge.
> (In reply to Dave Garnett) [citation needed]
>
> So olympic weightlifting and power lifting is detrimental to your health?
>
> So olympic weightlifting and power lifting is detrimental to your health?
I don't have the statistics handy but I don't think it's terribly good for you. That wasn't really my point though. I don't think the grip used in weightlifting is quite the same as deadhanging a 14mm edge.
In reply to sip a cup:
As an aside, as someone who doesn't quite meet her prerequisite strength requirments I simply tweaked the protocol for myself. Basically using a bigger edge for the weighted phase and a small amount of assistance for the small edge phase.
Despite wavering from the official line I've still seen pleasing gains through my first 8 week cycle.
Hoping by the end of this cycle I'll be good enough for Eva's official standards
As an aside, as someone who doesn't quite meet her prerequisite strength requirments I simply tweaked the protocol for myself. Basically using a bigger edge for the weighted phase and a small amount of assistance for the small edge phase.
Despite wavering from the official line I've still seen pleasing gains through my first 8 week cycle.
Hoping by the end of this cycle I'll be good enough for Eva's official standards
In reply to sip a cup:
Given the actual board is expensive and developed very specifically for this regime, what alternatives have people found for doing this on other equipment, particularly the small edge period (I've been using what I thought was a 20mm edge on a beastmaker for the max weight period).
Given the actual board is expensive and developed very specifically for this regime, what alternatives have people found for doing this on other equipment, particularly the small edge period (I've been using what I thought was a 20mm edge on a beastmaker for the max weight period).
In reply to shark: Shark that picture shows a joint angle of 90 degrees, not 45
In reply to Arms Cliff:
Just checking to see if anyone was paying attention <cough>
> (In reply to shark) Shark that picture shows a joint angle of 90 degrees, not 45
Just checking to see if anyone was paying attention <cough>
In reply to Liam Brown:
Si hablas espanyol puedes lo fabrica tu mismo...
http://eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/como-fabricar-tu-propio-regletometr...
or you could use google translate, either way here is a build your own version which Eva used to help develop the JM boards.
Si hablas espanyol puedes lo fabrica tu mismo...
http://eva-lopez.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/como-fabricar-tu-propio-regletometr...
or you could use google translate, either way here is a build your own version which Eva used to help develop the JM boards.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
A fair comment I guess. long-term effect of joints is inknown as far as I know. However lots of people have been deadhanging for a long period of time - without as far as I know debilitating effects. If you check out Stevie Haston's blog you will find that he did a lot of deadhanging a long time ago.
If by plyometrics you mean campusing, then this is still well used. If you mean the drop-down and explode back up stuff on a campus board then I am not sure. I think some people do it but not me personally.
Training regimes like this have been around for many years and work. A brief read around will show that a lot of the top climbers from the 80s and early 90s were doing deadhanging.
Deadhanging is just like any form of training - if you build up slowly and do it consistently in a structured manner then it is likely to not give you any serious problems. However if you jump straight in and start hanging 80kgs off your back in a deadhang on a small edge then you are likely to have problems.
As a personal note: I have done quite a bit of this kind of thing. It has helped with finger strength. I have very occasionally got a slight tweak out of it but nothing major - certainly less than climbing and training at the wall in general has given me. The added weight stuff I did for a while but stopped when I became uncomfortable at the amount of weight I was putting on the doorframe and the fact it felt uncomfortable in the rucksac. Overall I would say that I have mostly found deadhanging to be of low injury risk because it is done in a structured manner and you can build it up nice and slowly at home without any competition from friends.
Obviously all I have said is anecdotal and not based on science.
> (In reply to John Gillott)
>
> I really hope these people know what they are doing. It's difficult to see how they can, since they have no idea of what the long-term effect of this is likely to be on finger joints.
>
>
> I really hope these people know what they are doing. It's difficult to see how they can, since they have no idea of what the long-term effect of this is likely to be on finger joints.
>
A fair comment I guess. long-term effect of joints is inknown as far as I know. However lots of people have been deadhanging for a long period of time - without as far as I know debilitating effects. If you check out Stevie Haston's blog you will find that he did a lot of deadhanging a long time ago.
> One of the big advantages climbing has over most forms of strength training is that it's body-weight limited. My impression is that training regimes like this have come and gone a few times over the last 20 years (pliometrics, anyone?) but the general rules seem to be that regularly hauling much over your bodyweight is a bad idea, and deadhangs are a bad idea.
If by plyometrics you mean campusing, then this is still well used. If you mean the drop-down and explode back up stuff on a campus board then I am not sure. I think some people do it but not me personally.
Training regimes like this have been around for many years and work. A brief read around will show that a lot of the top climbers from the 80s and early 90s were doing deadhanging.
Deadhanging is just like any form of training - if you build up slowly and do it consistently in a structured manner then it is likely to not give you any serious problems. However if you jump straight in and start hanging 80kgs off your back in a deadhang on a small edge then you are likely to have problems.
As a personal note: I have done quite a bit of this kind of thing. It has helped with finger strength. I have very occasionally got a slight tweak out of it but nothing major - certainly less than climbing and training at the wall in general has given me. The added weight stuff I did for a while but stopped when I became uncomfortable at the amount of weight I was putting on the doorframe and the fact it felt uncomfortable in the rucksac. Overall I would say that I have mostly found deadhanging to be of low injury risk because it is done in a structured manner and you can build it up nice and slowly at home without any competition from friends.
Obviously all I have said is anecdotal and not based on science.
In reply to davo:
I guess people like Haston are the best guide for the long-term effects of this kind of thing. He's certainly been at a good while and has maintained a pretty amazing standard. On the other hand, he's obviously exceptional - how many people have dropped out of climbing through injury?
Yes, I meant the dropping onto holds thing which seems to me a pretty much guaranteed way of injuring yourself. The only times I've really hurt myself on a wall have been from doing exactly this while attempting a problem.
I think my concern about deadhanging came from reading articles about cartilage damage caused by continuous, rather than intermittent, pressure. This was linked to osteoarthrosis but I don't know whether this is still a credible idea. I guess it came from the observation that osteoarthrosis mainly affects weight-bearing joints.
When the fashion was to do miles of brick-edge traverses we used to joke that we would all get arthitis in our fingers but I don't know how many of us did! Anecdotally, it seems that Dupuytren's contracture is more of a climbers' disease than arthritis.
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> [...]
>
> A fair comment I guess. long-term effect of joints is inknown as far as I know. However lots of people have been deadhanging for a long period of time - without as far as I know debilitating effects. If you check out Stevie Haston's blog you will find that he did a lot of deadhanging a long time ago.
> [...]
>
> A fair comment I guess. long-term effect of joints is inknown as far as I know. However lots of people have been deadhanging for a long period of time - without as far as I know debilitating effects. If you check out Stevie Haston's blog you will find that he did a lot of deadhanging a long time ago.
I guess people like Haston are the best guide for the long-term effects of this kind of thing. He's certainly been at a good while and has maintained a pretty amazing standard. On the other hand, he's obviously exceptional - how many people have dropped out of climbing through injury?
> If by plyometrics you mean campusing, then this is still well used. If you mean the drop-down and explode back up stuff on a campus board then I am not sure. I think some people do it but not me personally.
Yes, I meant the dropping onto holds thing which seems to me a pretty much guaranteed way of injuring yourself. The only times I've really hurt myself on a wall have been from doing exactly this while attempting a problem.
I think my concern about deadhanging came from reading articles about cartilage damage caused by continuous, rather than intermittent, pressure. This was linked to osteoarthrosis but I don't know whether this is still a credible idea. I guess it came from the observation that osteoarthrosis mainly affects weight-bearing joints.
When the fashion was to do miles of brick-edge traverses we used to joke that we would all get arthitis in our fingers but I don't know how many of us did! Anecdotally, it seems that Dupuytren's contracture is more of a climbers' disease than arthritis.
In reply to davo:
I should also admit that I'm the world's worst at any kind of structured training. Doing the same thing two weeks running is a long-term commitment.
I should also admit that I'm the world's worst at any kind of structured training. Doing the same thing two weeks running is a long-term commitment.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Personally I agree, it has never worked for me although I have never really given it a good structured go. I think at my level of climbing it is probably not necessary. However I have seen a few vids of utter beasts doing this kind of thing but for me I think it would destroy my elbows.
It has always been a worry of mine about arthritis but I am not sure how many climbers have developed it in their fingers due to climbing.
Cheers dave
> I guess people like Haston are the best guide for the long-term effects of this kind of thing. He's certainly been at a good while and has maintained a pretty amazing standard. On the other hand, he's obviously exceptional - how many people have dropped out of climbing through injury?
>
To be honest I think that if you try to push yourself at any level then injuries are a natural consequence of this. To me training effectively for climbing is mostly about injury management, yes some people are more prone to injury and others seem never to get injured. Elite athletes get injured all the time in all sports, it is their response to training that makes them elite. I don't know and maybe someone else could confirm but I suspect Stevie Haston has had ups and downs with injuries just like the rest of us.>
> Yes, I meant the dropping onto holds thing which seems to me a pretty much guaranteed way of injuring yourself. The only times I've really hurt myself on a wall have been from doing exactly this while attempting a problem.
>
>
Personally I agree, it has never worked for me although I have never really given it a good structured go. I think at my level of climbing it is probably not necessary. However I have seen a few vids of utter beasts doing this kind of thing but for me I think it would destroy my elbows.
> I think my concern about deadhanging came from reading articles about cartilage damage caused by continuous, rather than intermittent, pressure. This was linked to osteoarthrosis but I don't know whether this is still a credible idea. I guess it came from the observation that osteoarthrosis mainly affects weight-bearing joints.
>
>
It has always been a worry of mine about arthritis but I am not sure how many climbers have developed it in their fingers due to climbing.
Cheers dave
In reply to davo: I always understood that Arthritis was as a consequence of injury and not overuse http://drmillett.com/ask/how-common-is-shoulder-arthritis-among-adults-unde...
In reply to dale1968:
Certainly trauma such as fracture throught a joint is often (as in almost always) followed by arthritis but a lot of osteo isn't obviously related to an injury. It's often put down to 'wear and tear' (as it says in the article) but there's obviously more to it than that (lots of people don't seem to get it). It's been a while since I took an interest in this but the causes seemed to be related to the health of cartilage (hydration and the role of glyosaminoglycans in holding water) and the normal activity of chondrocytes in maintaining it. We don't yet have the whole answer to rheumatoid arthritis but osteo seemed much more of a mystery.
Do we have any rheumatologists around who could give the 5 minute version of current research?
Certainly trauma such as fracture throught a joint is often (as in almost always) followed by arthritis but a lot of osteo isn't obviously related to an injury. It's often put down to 'wear and tear' (as it says in the article) but there's obviously more to it than that (lots of people don't seem to get it). It's been a while since I took an interest in this but the causes seemed to be related to the health of cartilage (hydration and the role of glyosaminoglycans in holding water) and the normal activity of chondrocytes in maintaining it. We don't yet have the whole answer to rheumatoid arthritis but osteo seemed much more of a mystery.
Do we have any rheumatologists around who could give the 5 minute version of current research?
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