UKC

For a truly great leader who inspired by those other legendary champions of the people Bolivar and Castro,became the greatest Venezualan president of all.Uniting a continent to try and free themselves from US Imperialism.
His heart beat in time with the masses,his pulse was the pulse of the people.This has gone but will forever live on in the hearts of caring,altruistic and passionate fighters for the poor and oppressed.

Viva Chavez!
A true king among men.

youtube.com/watch?v=3B0RbU_UhCA&


Please do not reply to this thread if you have nothing positive to say about Hugo.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Said in the true spirit of Hugo.....

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

He looked like Big Bear of Playschool

I haven't seen it but as it's directed by Martin Scorcese I assume it's quite good.

http://www.imdb.co.uk/title/tt0970179/

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I'm happy to be educated about this as I know nothing of Venezuelan politics. So how big an achievement is that? Who was the second best and what did they do?

T.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Not my favourite Hugo.

My favourite Hugo is

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110105113708/villains/images/1/19/H...

In reply to ThunderCat:

In fact, I don't think I'd put Hugo Chavez in my top ten list of 'all time favourite Hugos'.

Whats you're favourite Hugo

In reply to ThunderCat:

Always liked Hugo Weaving,

"Mr Annnnnndersson"

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

He was just another left wing dictator. That's a postive statement about him.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Did a fantastic job of blowing a fair amount of oil money on personal effects which I guess could be seen as good future investments for the 'country'.

Viva Chavez!!

In reply to ThunderCat:

Victor of course.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

Hehehe, yeah..."You must get the ring to Mordor, Frodo"

In reply to Niall:

Boss?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

You have a very poor grasp of how the internet works.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Ah yes the greatest Hugo

Must be Hugo Thattaway

Brother to

Igor Thattaway

In reply to John Rushby:


To give the man credit, he did create the Venezuelan car industry.

The little sports car he built with Serbian car builders was genius.

The Twogohugoyugo is a classic.

In reply to Postmanpat:

It was out of respect for someone who has just died.I suppose all the people who have replied would be quite happy if someone did this on a thread to commemorate the life of someone they loved dearly.
This wasn't about discussions which can be had anywhere on UKC but just grieving and celebration of the life of a wonderful human being.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

For a minute there I thought Hugo Boss had died. He's done a lot more to help the poor get some dress sense.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

probably a thread about alvin lee might have been a better choice then...

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

He bolted all Venezuelan grit and loved puddings.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: Chavez was a wanna-be dictator, a tin-plated popinjay with delusions of godhood. The world is a better place without him. I bet there's going to be a long queue to p!ss on his grave.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

If Thatcher died, you would be creaming your fair trade hemp knickers as you typed your invective.

I say this based on all the Thatcher threads.

So, OK to gloat over the shopkeeper's daughter, but no fair if the right have a pip at the fat controller

BTW, I am ambivamalent.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Ahhh, Naebollox, how are things in your delusional world these days?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: You'll have gathered by now, Gudrun, that this forum has a distressingly high number of filth and hateful scum, Daily Mail and Sun readers.
I was saddened by Chavez's death: for all his faults his achievements in lifting the poor out of poverty and inspiring others, in Venezuela and beyond, to fight back against the vampirism of foreign capitalists, were an example to us all. Let's hope the Venezuelans are able to keep up the momentum of the journey he has stared them on.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:
Feelin allot of love for UKC right now. Kudos to all.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:


Nooooooo, I thought you weren't posting as you were trolling! Never reply to your own trolling post!

You really didn't think you would get away with telling people not to post on such a controversial character if they hadn't got anything nice to say.... who are you Thumper's Mother!

I'm sure Mr Chavez will be happy with all the "western capitalists" moaning about him when he is dead, he sure enjoyed it when he was alive !

In reply to DaveHK:

Not the ukc, whenever someone dies in an accident it is an absolute no no to even ask how the accident happened, let alone criticize the deceased, and yet for a very popular and objectively successful, personally honest President (not that common in South America) the same rule of common decency doesn't apply!

I wonder why?

Whatever I personally agree with all those Venezuelans we saw taking his body to be buried, he was a pretty impressive character, one of the few who had the courage to stand up to the yanks - not something our motley crew could ever be accused of doing

I couldn't help thinking that if Cameron were to die of cancer the popular grief and manifestations of it would be unlikely to be on anything like such a scale.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
.... who are you Thumper's Mother!
ha haha, worth the entire thread just for that line alone. funny shit.

In reply to stroppygob:

If there was a queue to piss in your mouth I'd be quite happy to join it.

In reply to OMR:

A bollox thread gets bollox responses.

Filth and hateful hateful scum, I don't agree with Gudrun or Bruce or CdB but they are neither.

You're not covering yourself in glory here.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: I take it you've stopped taking the medication again.....

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Very poor, could do better

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:
He was a fascinating politician who made a huge impact. The scenes in Venezuela are very moving. I would have liked to have met him and should have tried to do so.

It will be very interesting to see what happens in both Venezuela and South America.

His death has cost me money but there we are......

In reply to OMR:


Ye know i thought he would pull through and when i heard the terrible news last night i just went numb then had a good wee cry and then cried again in work today and i well up inside everytime i see a picture of him and i'm doing it again just talking about him.

I can't believe he's gone.I loved that man.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Have you been to Venezuela
Just interested and be truthful.

In reply to John Rushby:
In reply to John Rushby:

Of course not,where would i get the money?

Why wouldn't i be truthful ???But hey that would have been absolutely amazing just to have been at one of his rallys and feel the love. Ahhhh!

have you been ? Did you see the great Commandante Presidenti Chavez?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Don't know, Shona (or Naedanger etc. etc. ), why wouldn't you? Though you do have previous for lying....

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:
In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I was interested in that you can lionise a man who led a country you have never been to.

I've spent a long time in Peru when Fujimori was in power and he was no poster boy for the people he claimed to come from. Bolivia was no better. Chile, now that is a country moving on.

I honestly don't get the cult of personality that he and similar generate. Give me messy pluralism anytime. I like Ken Clarke and Tarzan, even though they not my politics.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:
Heartfelt post - good to see.
At least I know a little more about Venezuala now. Before today it was

1. they have no extradition treaty with USA (from the wonderful film Burn After Reading)

2. errr....?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Good effort, she was no saint, but many fail to see the irony in their hate.

I hope your knickers are not too itchy, I thought pants from Mexican peasants once and it was life me becoming something from a Clive barker novel .

In reply to John Rushby:

When she dies i would not disrespect a thread that was to grieve and celebrate her.I would go to another thread at least.And I don't get off on petty arguments thanks.
But i do wear fair trade hemp knickers.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Probably entirely because of this
"Please do not reply to this thread if you have nothing positive to say about Hugo."

It invites mockery, as any right-thinking person would know. The rest of the OP was also a little overwhelmingly gushing - marry that to the well-known posting history of Shona, and you're going to get a thread like this.

If I'd posted an OP saying simply "Chavez has died, sad day" you would not have got this thread.

youtube.com/watch?v=T17VzztS60M&

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

At risk of being on the receiving ends of one of your hateful attacks I think you would benefit from watching this video:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=541313

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Am i not right thinking?

You know what....i said what i felt in my heart ok and if that to you or anyone else is gushing then so be it.

I am grieving.

Sorry to everyone for causing you all to react this way.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Don't put words in my mouth.

I am sorry that you are upset. Seriously.

My reply was addressed to Bruce and was not intended to upset you further.
Your OP is gushing. I haven't said that that's a bad thing. I used that word to describe to Bruce why the thread has gone this way.

I have not said anything disrespectful about you or about Chavez.
Close down UKC for now and have a good wallow.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I'm sorry of you feel such loss. Personally, apart from my dads, I don't t believe in hero's, all a bit Ozymandius.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

All very well, but what did he do on grit?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:



I don't understand how anyone can feel this way about someone they never met, never interacted with or who had very little direct effect on their lives.

I felt quite similar to the buckets of tears shed by people over Diana as well. Maybe I'm just not wired right.

In reply to ThunderCat:

+1

Having said that, however, I became emotional the first time I saw a British War Cemetery and started reading the inscriptions and ages on the headstones. They were people I never knew.

Human emotions are funny old things and can catch you out when you least expect it.

In reply to ThunderCat:

You're probably wired right. It's just another perfect example of the hypocrisy displayed by some of the political posters on UKC.

E

In reply to Enty:

Isn't mass weeping of the population compulsory in North Korea whenever a Dear Leader dies?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

And I see your true colours
Shining through
I see your true colours
That's why I love you
So don't be afraid to let them show
Your true colours
True colours are beautiful,
Like a rainbow

Or not.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: just great

In reply to OMR:

Dear OMR - please be aware of two things:

a) I may be hateful, but I'm not (usually) filthy

b) I think you are a prick.

Does that help?

JW x

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:


I had the misfortune of having to translate "Der Schwierige" by Hugo von Hofmannsthal when I was at school - I can assure you that I have absolutely nothing whatsoever positive to say about that Hugo.

In reply to John Ww: Point b) - figured you would but, no doubt like you, don't give a flying one.

In reply to OMR:

Spot on!

In reply to Trangia:


People cry watching sad films all the time. They are people who don't even exist!

In reply to Robert Durran: isn't it called empathy? and wouldn't the world be a better place if we all had a bit more?

In reply to krikoman:

Maybe some on this thread are empathising with those who don't consider that the world is weeping?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/guardian-readers-pay-tribu...

In reply to ThunderCat:

Hi-larious.

Great quote "Meanwhile, tributes were also paid to Chavez by the usual arseholes.

Ken Livingstone, George Galloway and Gerry Adams all said he was a great man, which is pretty much all you need to know about Hugo Chavez."

In reply to ThunderCat:

“I only use Venezuelan petrol in my Saab because it has been properly taxed.”



E

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

A left wing dictator AND a King amongst men ? or was that irony ?

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Obviously this was wishful thinking in a predominately right wind pool as this forum but it is fairly standard on threads concerning the death of people.

On the other hand I have been pleasantly surprised by the reactions of some right wing governments - the President of Chile, for example, a right winger but one who said he admired Chavez for his qualities even if he didn't agree on all matters - even the USA will send a delegation to the funeral which is a progress from the Bush days. European leaders seemed more reticent, which is disappointing - to his shame the newly elected pseudo-left President of France - François Hollande - was less respectful than one would have expected from a man who called himself a Socialist.

We live in funny days.

In reply to TheHorroffice:

That's this thread??? Don't worry though, didums, no danger from me.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

What is fairly standard?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=541304

In reply to Steve John B:

Is pissing on a tomb any better than pissing in a stroppygob? If you are not familiar with his posting it is very stroppy, rarely more than this sort of one line jab.

Whatever you tories may think Chavez was a very important politician on the world scene, even more so in the Americas and for a large part of the Venezuelan people, especially the poor and previously excluded people, he was a saviour - in the literal sense. So anyone who speaks of pissing on his tomb within a few days of his death after a pretty unpleasant illness can expect a similarly strong reaction. In Britain people get sent to prison for pissing on inanimate lumps of rock nowadays.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

What a sad thread.

I think a few people on here will regret what they posted in a few days time.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Asking people only to post positive things after deaths, recently after those accidents in Scotland for example.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

If Darren Jackson died when a cow punching trip went wrong you're hardly going to post "he was a wanker".

In reply to John Rushby:

Sorry, that joke is too intellectual for me. I just looked up who he is - a footballer apparently - and I'm still at a loss. Please refrain from testing me with jokes that go beyond chickens crossing roads.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

He's UKC's very own owl bothering cow puncher

I digress...

My point being, Chavez was a divisive figure, and he knew it. He polarised opinion, some love him, some hate him and he went out of his way to poke the bear.

So, rightly or wrongly, some are not going to mourn his loss

The analogy of some poor random fresh off the Clapham omnibus coming to grief on the crag just does not stand up

In reply to John Rushby:

I am, too. It says so on my business card.. Owly Expertise and Bovine Pugilism Services.

I looked up Bruce Hooker and found out that he's a world authority on growing massive pumpkins:

http://tinyurl.com/cqj4q3d

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: It's a peculiar one this. Chavez it could be argued has lifted a lot of people out of poverty in Venezuela though he's also blow billions of his nations oil wealth through misinformed and inefficient policies. That could have been put to better use. Whilst his socialist ideals were good at heart it's debatable in the long run whether they will have had any lasting effect. His real legacy is to have stood up to the US and shown other Sth American Governments that they can break away from the US imposed Friedian doctrines and hegemony. Which will probably be the more important thing in the long run.

As to the tooings and froings on the thread above. Well with Shona's evangelism in the face of previous abuse she's bandied about here in the past plus her extreme political views it's not entirely surprising that she's coming in for a bashing. Especially at the posts of some of the further right wing posters about. Suffice it to say I doubt "the World is Weeping" though in long run it may be proven that Chavez's impact was positive but more for the less obvious things he did.

In reply to Removed User:
I think a few people on here will regret what they posted in a few days time.

Is this from personal experience of regret at suggesting you'd quite like to urinate on a statue of a little old lady?

In reply to Removed User:

Actually most it is low key piss taking aimed more at the OP than Chavez. I rather doubt will show the same restraint when Mrs T pops her clogs, but then one would only post a "dont reply unless you love her" post to provoke a reaction.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Thanks, I understand now. It wasn't terribly clear in the post that I replied to.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Busted.

In reply to Frank4short:

Good post! A rose amongst thorns.

In reply to Clauso:

My apologies, I googled your name and the footballer came up. I couldn't see the link with cows. If you were more famous the error wouldn't have occurred.

I deny all connections with pumpkins, it is surprising to see how many Bruce Hookers there are in the world - a nightmare scenario for some If we were all laid head to foot I've no idea how far we would reach... the Moon?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
If we were all laid head to foot I've no idea how far we would reach... the Moon?

Hednesford, but only if you took the A5 and not the M1 A38

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I'm with Dorothy Parker where this is concerned. She once mentioned that if all the girls attending the Yale Prom were laid from end to end, then she wouldn't be at all surprised.

In reply to Frank4short:
His real legacy is to have stood up to the US and shown other Sth American Governments that they can break away from the US imposed Friedian doctrines and hegemony.

I've no feelings either was on Chaves. From this distance he seemed like another South American pantomine politician with marathon tirades and even his own tv show serenading the public. But as for being an example and showing others what could be done I think I'd add "when you are swimming in oil with money coming out of your ears." As the UK is currently discovering, you can have quite a party of oil money but it doesn't last forever.

In reply to Clauso:

Further to your query I just found this site by googling "Bruce Hooker pumpkin":

http://www.nhgpga.org/

They seem to be a little know sect "Dedicated to the sport of growing giant pumpkins in the spirit of learning, teaching and cooperation."

I wonder if they will try to introduce their "sport" into the Olympic Games too? Today the Olympics, tomorrow the world?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Shonas going to have a f*cking thrombo when she gets back from work and sees this thread. It won't even be the odd word typed in Scottish dialect - it'll be the whole deal. It'll be like Irvine Welsh after a bottle of buckfast reading an Oor Wullie comic strip while dressed in a shortbread kilt.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Classically, to cry over an image or face, which is what a stranger is despite the media hype surrounding them, it suggests an emotional dependency not met. Pretty odd behaviour IMHO, especially in adults, Eysenck's research appears to back this up (building blocks of life etc).

I would suggest you are wired right in this respect.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I wouldn't disagree with that point one bit, which is why I said his socialist ideals in Venezuela are unlikely to stand the test of time. Especially considering the non oil related wealth there is all effectively controlled by a bunch oligarchal families. Heavily socialiest policies can, and often are, repealled when there's a change of government. Based on the facts that a lot of Chavez policies were essentially redistributing oil wealth, giving jobs to supporters and land grabs it's quite likely this might happen in the future and gains that were made in his time negated.

However he did set the example of breaking away from US sway/control. Which is now being capitalised upon by a number of other Sth American governments not all of which are "swimming in oil money". This is likely to be his most significant legacy in the long run not the touted socialist ideals and Mugabeesque land grabs he became famous for.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I don't see why they shouldn't introduce the sport of giant pumpkin growing to the Olympics? If they wait until after the long jumpers and triple jumpers are finished with the sand, then they already have the makings of a decent allotment patch, there, with a liberal sprinkling of compost?

Apologies...You're the expert on all this, anyhow; I wasn't trying to tell you how to go about your trade.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: think how close we came..
youtube.com/watch?v=Bemz-7fofcs&

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


I wait with bated breath to hear the 'left wing' tributes and positive comments flood in when Maggie dies, or Prince Philip for that matter. 'Respect' for the dead has to cut both ways. From the oft seen 'champagne on ice' comments I don't hold out much hope.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
It's interesting how people's impressions differ. I always think of UKC as a bit more left than right.

In reply to Oceanrower:

You see Bruce is a former card carrying communist. So his views of pretty much equate to anyone who isn't a card carrying socialist/communist/anti-establishmentarian anarchist as right wing. Taken from that perspective pretty much anyone is right wing. Shona, the OP, also follows this particular train of thought. Though it'd be fair to say her views are possibly more anti-establishmentarian new communism workers of world revolt than Bruce's older world communist views.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

UKC has a right wing bent? Nah Don't see that at all.

Your average UKCer drives a diesel Octavia, uses a Nexus 7, uses a pooper-scooper to flick border collie turds onto hedge branches, carries a rack of: prowire QDs, and C4Us from JB's, torque nuts 2&3 and if pushed is probably left of centre politically.

stands to reason guv

In reply to krikoman: i couldnt agree more krikoman. so many people just couldnt seem to care less about others. its sad

In reply to heidi123:

Just less emotionally incontinent I'd say.

In reply to Oceanrower:

+ 1

E

This place is a den of fairtrade latte drinking Octavia driving IPad wielding yoghurt knitting, lentil huggiing owl touchers.

In reply to John Rushby:
This place is a den of fairtrade latte drinking Octavia driving IPad wielding yoghurt knitting, lentil huggiing owl touchers.

Well people do tend to strongly identify behaviours that are different from their own. I'm sure Mr Jackson would highlight the levels of Tapir worship.

I think UKC is full of reactionaries at both ends of the political scale with an unhealthy obsession with caving, skiing and being short.

Mike <Exits on a snowboard to sit on the fence where the short people can't get me>

In reply to andic:some mebbe are but some really couldnt care less

In reply to Postmanpat:

Yes, that's what I find distasteful.

In reply to Oceanrower:


It's all relative, isn't it?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: I've always considered it more of an upwards thing, myself.

T.

In reply to andic:


All of which sounds pretty Home Counties tory to me,


Depends on where you put the centre!

For me driving an Octavia is the tell tale sign, typical reactionary vehicle.

In reply to Removed User:

Satirisation or bog standard piss taking has existed since the dawn of political intent. To find it distasteful smacks of that rather immature PC attitude that says, "I want to have the same voice as the man next to me, but without the responsibilities that go with". I.e. standing on your own feet and being accountable to those that disagree with you. Grow up?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: Troll. Back under yer bridge.

In reply to drunken monkey:

I thought that Chavez was great.















I have his initials engraved on my taps.

In reply to coinneach:
Hehe, that's a beaut. Best comment of the thread so far!

In reply to crustypunkuk:

Seconded....ROFL....

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Once again you're talking out your backside, you may be weeping for him but I doubt you know the first thing about him.

For starters, do you know anything about the Barrios family, Judge Ifiuni, denying social programmes to those who had different political views, media control, to name but a few things. Lovely chap.

If you have time away from your bridge, read this:

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/venezuela0712webwcover.pdf

but, the UN did honour him for his human rights activities:

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2013/03/07/the-un-human-rights-council-honors-h...

(you may realise that I'm being sarcastic there...)

So then, serious question, how do you justify all that. Answer, you can't.

In reply to Denni: After Guantanamo, Abu Gahraib and the whole sordid rendition business shouldn't we, the coalition of the willing, gate keepers of freedom and democracy, be keeping quiet about human rights violations?

In reply to woolsack:

I would have thought that standing up for human rights was independent of taking sides. A violation by one country is no less serious because another country might have committed violations.

I'm sure there is another poster who's response to any criticism of one regime is usually to shout "But you are worse!"
I can't think who.......

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:
Hugo isn't a chav's name round here, I guess it's different in Venezuela.

In reply to woolsack:

I'm not saying we are innocent, but just making the point to the Baader-Meinhoff group lover that Chavez ain't who she apparently thinks he is but then I suspect she/him knows this and is of course just trolling.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: drifting back is the way to go...
youtube.com/watch?v=WmHljOmSw6I&

In reply to Oceanrower:

I'd agree with that.

But the narrative surrounding Chavez was so skewed so far by the right its no surprise UKC's liberal types are taking a more hard line.

In reply to ThunderCat and fishman


For a start women tend to be more emotional than men,generally speaking though i have one pal who we nickname "Tiny tears" and he is a big guy but bursts out crying all the time during emotional bits in films but only when he's sitting with his family(all lassies).
Hugo was a beacon of hope for socialists in this world so dominated by the Evil Empire who killed this hope in country after country.

His bravery was incredible as was his humanity and compassion.These qualities as well as his passion for helping the poorest members of his and many other societies connect with me.It is the same reason i will cry if The Dalai Lama passes away before i do.I have seen many programmes with Hugo in them and it is an emotional experience, since he is an emotional Latin American.His personality and warmth shine through but it is the things he did that were truly wonderful for the poor of Venezuela.Have you seen how much he meant to them?

How can that not make you emotional?

Now that is something i just don't understand although other Commies i know like myself didn't cry but they are all guys so maybe that's why.When i see some poor wee soul or animal on the telly i have been known to have a wee greet,not a full blown one but just to shed a wee tear,i guess i'm just an emotional person.


it's not that you are not wired right,to be honest i couldn't understand the Diana thing either but i think it all boils down to making an emotional connection with someone you see even on the telly.Its like she did many many charitable things i suppose and was known for being compassionate to people who were suffering or had experienced some trauma.People see this and it connects with them,there's nothing strange about it unless you are some emotionless android.Its a very human reaction to make an emotional connection with someone who is known for helping others when they need it most.Its all about positive feelings and emotions the expression of human kindness and recognition of someone who's actions this embodies

In reply to Denni:

You show me where i have talked "out my backside" kid. You cannot and its understandable that you get angry about it and have to resort to nonsense.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4051

Have a wee read,educate yourself,go on.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I do get a bit of a lump in my throat whenever I read Watership Down, I must admit.

In reply to John Rushby:


Brilliant!

In reply to crustypunkuk:

Hehe!

The thread was supposed to commemorate someone who had just passed away as a wee tribute to the wonderful things he achieved,nothing is sacred for some of the above people on the UKC forum not even a persons recent death.

And to any who scream that i would do the same for Thatcher or Bush you are completely wrong.

I could have done it on here when Havel died,i had the opportunity but out of respect i didn't and wouldn't full stop.

http://www.handsoffvenezuela.org/hugo_chavez_has_died.htm

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Kid? You're probably right, I am only 44 so probably younger than you.

Not getting angry, providing you with facts showing human rights violations. These are the reasons why the UN couldn't pin down Venezuala on specific resolutions because there were so many human rights violations being investigated.

I don't need to read your link, I'm well enough educated on Venezuala having studied it due to the nature of jobs down the years.

Seriously, are you suggesting that Chavez was whiter than white? Read the report, all joking aside, and as it is factual, you'll see he was a bugger.

Cheers kid.

In reply to Denni:

Just noticed your report is 4 and a bit years old, so quite current?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I appreciate you haven't been able to visit Venezuela - flights look very expensive, but I was wondering if you speak Spanish?
Purely on the basis that I find it hard to make an emotional connection with someone through subtitles alone - though having said that some excellent subtitled movies do stick in the mind.

In reply to Denni:


Says it all really.

i know a fair bit about Venezuela myself and i'm not joking one bit now.

Do you know what it was like pre-Chavez?

Do you ?

Do you know about the US coup?

Do you know about the NED in Venezuela?

In reply to off-duty:

Hmmm...wee Offy,bless!

I'll let you in on a wee secret ...he spoke English to.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Having spent years in the Forces in and out of Belize, been to various briefings that aren't your standard ones, I'm pretty well versed on what was going on, including a lot of involvement from America and indeed other countries.

This however deoesn't mean to say that your dead hero was a good chap now does it?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I didn't realise that. Thanks.

In reply to Denni:


Yes so am i.


It doesn't say anything at all and i didn't say it did,but many other places will show you the truth of his wonderful accomplishments just try looking a bit further than your Guardian,Times,Fox et al.

I get this sneeking feeling that you won't though sometimes it's easiest not to question or challenge the powerful.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: Have you seen how much the North Korean people love Kim Jung-Un? And his father before him?

Its amazing what a secret police service can do to a population eh?

Just because people appear to overly love a leader in front of the worlds press..good one

Good old communism......it'll work one day.....honest

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

I'm struggling to find any clips of him speaking English. What were you watching?

In reply to off-duty: boom-chicka wow wowwwww.........

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:


Look unlike a lot of the people posting here I believe Chavez was probably a force for good but as I've said above for other reasons than the obvious. Though all of that asides one of the things you've mentioned on a number of times as a mitigating factor is the, apparently, US supported coup. Which is to be frank ridiculously ironic seeing as Chavez's political career started as a result of coup he organized himself. Which it must be added was more to do with his disagreement with the ruling elite at the time, than any profound socialist aspirations he held. As by his own admission it was only later, after the attempted coup, that he really connected with socialism.

In reply to off-duty:

If you watch The war on democracy that i linked to in my opening post you will see him talking in English.

In reply to Frank4short:

Do you know the reasons why Chavez attempted a coup?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Ok.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Sorry but it is plain to see that you don't know what you are talking about.

In reply to Frank4short:

Well do you?

In reply to Frank4short:

You don't ok,it was partly caused when the government ordered the army to shoot unarmed people.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Because he wanted to run the country?

Isn't that usually why people attempt a coup?

Or am I missing some altruistic gesture on his behalf - now that would be something special in the world of politics.

In reply to Goucho:

See above and the country was in a mess.

In reply to off-duty: do you really want the responsibility of god?

In reply to subalpine:

Huh?

In reply to off-duty: i thought that would fly over- what about the real issues in the uk or somesuch?

In reply to Frank4short:


I had a really interesting chat with a South American analysts in the pub last night; his main point was that although it is of course always sad when someone dies prematurely, Chavez has actually ensured his legacy by shuffling off this mortal coil at this point. He said that the Venezuelan economy has very deep structural problems and that Chavez was going to run out of money to transfer to the poor soon. Chavez very clearly redistributed a lot wealth from the rich to the poor over the last decade, but it has just been transfers promoting consumption, not investment for sustainable growth and jobs. So Venezuelan industry except oil has significantly declined whilst imports (including foodstuff) has gone up. He thinks that the next president is going to have to start cutting what they give to the poor.

He also said that the guy who will follow Chavez, the chap who used to be a bus driver, is true ideological 'Chavista', who will try to continue Chavez's policies but that the military has become increasingly independent and increasingly corrupted by drug money and there is likely to be conflict between those two wings of movement.

In reply to Denni:


Reports can say anything but why don't you look at the Venezuelan people, do they agree with you? It's a tough country, certainly a few rules may have been broken by theoretical Home Counties standards but all that is theoretical, we keep the dirty stuff well hidden, or persuade the sheepish public that the killing we do is for a good cause. How many countries did Chavez bomb? How many drones did he have? How many people, usually of a darkish hue, but not always, did his armies travel abroad to kill?

You are as blinkered as you are lacking in human compassion, so brain washed as to be unable to even admit the undoubted popularity of Chavez and the good he has done for his people, especially those at the bottom. Even the conservative President of Chile can see this and has made quite an eloquent statement about Chavez, but you can't.

Alas you are not alone on this forum which gives the lie to all those who pretend that the trend here is to the left, it is clearly well to the right of even a South American conservative President... which is pretty right by any standards!

In reply to off-duty: talk to me - i'd like to know exactly your views on this issue:
plenty of space here for several paragraphs >>>

In reply to drunken monkey:

I'm afraid you are showing your ignorance here, Venezuela was a very long way from being a communist country, South American Socialism is not communism and private industry was still strong. There were regular elections - the first one Chavez won in the context which he had no control over so not at all like N Korea, and the following ones were genuine elections, as the coming ones will be - the opposition parties exist and are very vociferous, simply they haven't a majority. What will happen now is by no means a foregone conclusion.

So 0/10 for accuracy on this one, could do better but must read the newspapers at least once a week.

In reply to subalpine:

I'm not exactly sure what's got under your collar. Care to share?

In reply to TobyA:


Funny, I saw a program on the telly last night in which those invited were fairly anti-Chavez (French government position at present) but even so the "oil man" present informed us that Venezuela has the second biggest petroleum reserves in the world after Saudi Arabia. This was confirmed by another Venezuelan (also anti-Chavez). Both pointed out that much of this was in the form of very heavy petroleum which presented certain technical difficulties but it was there all the same. These were classic oil resources, not oil shale as in the USA.

So you had better check to see if your "analyst" is any better than your Muslim professors who misled you a while ago

In reply to off-duty: care to share with a cop? please forgive me if i decline..

In reply to subalpine:

Perhaps you'll just explain your cryptic god comment then. Or maybe explain why my opinion matters so much to you (flattering though that might be).

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Well he did win four fair (according to independent international monitors) elections, and reduced poverty and unemployment. Though he had lots of dosh from the oil revenues and made some mistakes. All in all, though, a positive contribution. Not a king but a decent man doing the best he could in the circumstances.

In reply to off-duty: Holy shit dude! I have a healthy respect for authority, and for anti authority, but your paranoia reaches to the extreme. I generally read your posts, and understand your point, but tonight...............?

In reply to crustypunkuk:

I'm getting confused now, maybe you could quote the posts that are showing my paranoia?

In reply to off-duty: yes let us get off topic and divert things a bit more - whatever- i'd like to hear a robust argument from you sometime..

In reply to subalpine:

At the risk of degenerating into the squabbling of small children - you started it.

"In reply to off-duty: do you really want the responsibility of god?

I didn't realise I wasn't permitted to ask the OP questions. I won't do it again

I'd like to think UKC gets a fair few robust arguments from me. If you don't choose to participate in them that's entirely up to you - just like I get to choose what I argue about...

In reply to off-duty: robust failure. what interest do you bave in this subject?

In reply to subalpine:

Umm.. the same interest as the 3116 viewers?
What about you?

In reply to off-duty: lol - nice try, but we all know that you are spying on us - you little liar...

In reply to subalpine: Everyone's spying on you, that tinfoil hat isn't working. And put your trousers back on.

In reply to subalpine:

With (not much) respect don't you think if I was spying I -

a)Wouldn't post (don't want to be accused of inciting, acting as an agent provocateur or participating in a crime, do we)
b)wouldn't identify myself as a cop. (I mean really? What would be the point)

Perhaps you should think about turning off your computer and going to bed.

In reply to off-duty:
Apologies sir, i actually meant to quote subalpine. Your posts make sense.

In reply to crustypunkuk:

Phew! I thought my tin foil hat had slipped over my keyboard

In reply to off-duty:
Hehe. I can normally make sense of the arguments between you two (anti vs establishment, alt vs trad etc, but this one really threw me for a mo.

In reply to subalpine:

Are you a bit tipsy tonight Mr. Alpine? Because you're making less sense than usual.

In reply to TobyA:
And that truly is a feat in itself. I like his posts like a Dan Brown novel.

In reply to subalpine:

OH Subby where art though ? Come on we know you're in there .....

In reply to TobyA:

?? Is that possible ? Hmmmmm I once heard a drunkard trying to recite a verse from MacBeth backwards that was mildly amusing for about 20 seconds then became bloody annoying & quite embarrasing .

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:



He was great. He was able to ensure that the oil money did not go to his people but to other causes -Venezuela had the slowest growth rate of its peers in S America. He was hugely successful in growing crime in his country. He was able to persuade more than half the Jews of his country to leave (Gudrun, clearly a huge success to get rid of these pro-Israel leeches. He was able to eliminate false bourgeois idea like democracy and civil rights.

The world mourns for the Venezulean people.

In reply to subalpine:

Oh oh, I think Subalpines medication regime has slipped again. I'll give it ten minutes before he calls me a parasite.

reply to GudrunEnsslin:



“through his deep humanity, by his wise understanding, he leaves us a rich and monumental heritage. Most importantly - he has charted the direction of our present and future struggles. He has pointed the way to peace - to friendly co-existence - to the exchange of mutual scientific and cultural contributions - to the end of war and destruction. How consistently, how patiently, he labored for peace and ever increasing abundance, with what deep kindliness and wisdom. He leaves tens of millions all over the earth bowed in heart-aching grief.”

(Sh*t, sorry that was Paul Robeson about Stalin)

"warrior, philosopher and ruler was the closest the modern world has seen to the god-heroes of antiquity."

(Sh*t, sorry that was Washington Post about Mao Tse Tung)

“a warrior, a warrior for humankind and a preacher of the gospel of justice for all nations. He was a reforming character of the highest order”

(Sh*t, sorry that was Knut Hamsun (Nobel Laureate) about Hitler)

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Having proven reserves in your backyard is not the same as cash in the bank.

In reply to MikeTS:

Nice post.

And let's not forget Vice President George H. W. Bush in 1981, praising Ferdinand Marcos, Philippines President, for his "adherence to democratic principles and to the democratic process".

In reply to Cú Chullain:

It's certainly enough to get Uncle Sam mobilising his troops to invade you though

In reply to subalpine:

Why? What are you up to?

In reply to The New NickB: Just because you're not doing anything doesn't mean THEY'RE not watching you.

In reply to Pekkie:

This is one of this things that gets me. It seems those who severely criticise Chavez often point to his successes only being due to a huge oil bonanza.

Surely a great many leaders on this planet also have oil bonanzas but still preside over failing states and economic decline without any transfer from the rich to the poor. The US, despite its huge wealth, hasn't done well since 2008, nor does it seem many of the Gulf states. Venezuela has achieved what it has all the while cut-off by US sanction and no doubt under huge covert pressure.

In reply to Cú Chullain:

No, but it's a very good second best - they are on land not lost at sea. It wouldn't be sensible to blow them all quickly anyway, the longer you hang on to them the more valuable they'll get - unlike cash in the bank in fact

In reply to David Martin:

Thatcher?

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

They are going to embalm him and put him on display in a glass coffin for ever!

Now can anyone beat that for tasteless tackiness?

In reply to David Martin:


Venezuela exports half its oil to the US.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Re. Venezuela's oil reserves.

I was in Argentina in November 2005. I was in Buenos Aires, meanwhile down the coast at Mar del Plata the Summit of the Americas was taking place. Chavez travelled by train to Mar del Plata from B.A., and he was the talk of the town while he was there. I didn't see him but I did hear the commotion. When the summit started there were anti-Bush riots in Mar del Plata and a big demonstration in B.A. - the only time in my life I have smelled tear-gas!

Anyway, I digress. I recall talking to an official from PDVSA (the Venezuelan state oil company). He explained to me that Chavez had decided that since PDVSA was the people's company, it ought to be staffed by the people - as a result, a lot of specialists turned up at work to find their desks occupied by people who'd never even worked in the oil industry before. By the time they had sorted things out, oil production had declined and some of their reservoirs were irreparably damaged. I can't recall when this is supposed to have happened, but it was probably around 2002-2004.

Chavez seemed pretty well-liked by most of the Argentinians that I spoke to, though.

In reply to Douglas Griffin: I have heard that, apparently, cause the Venezuelan crude is so heavy. It's both hard to extract and expensive to refine. This coupled with the fact of the state oil company largely being staffed by people who don't really know how to deal with it has lead to systematic significant reductions in their production over the last 15 years or so. Has meant that despite the fact there are massive oil reserves there the country was effectively running at a massive loss. Which wasn't helped by the fact Chavez was very fond of practically giving the oil away to countries and organisations he like.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin: So he has done future generations of Venezuelans a favour by keeping more of it in the ground?

In reply to Frank4short:

There's no doubt that much of their oil will be difficult to produce - it's not like the light, sweet stuff that we (mostly) have here in the North Sea. However, they do have rather a lot of it.

Although Venezuela has a state-owned oil company, it doesn't have a monopoly on oil exploration and production. I think it was Chavez himself who opened up the oil resources to foreign investment under 'production sharing agreements' under which PDVSA would retain the majority share. I know that Conoco Phillips (for example) were involved in such a deal but a quick Google suggests that they had their assets expropriated in 2007... Some multinationals are still there, however.

In reply to Trangia:

It's not unusual in South America, in Lima you can see Pisaro after many centuries, not a pretty sight, and they seem to like kissing the relics. Catholics apparently. I think there are a few others too.

In reply to GudrunEnsslin:

Thanks to Subby for providing a bit of emotional content with your links to various songs,in fact i was hoping for a lot more snazzy Latino house in celebration of the loss of our cuddley Hugo.A certain David Hooper would have provided more than enough of this,he seemed to know where to find cool Latino Chavez dance music...i miss him too!i have some though to celebrate a giant of the indigenous people of Venezuela,the South and oppressed everywhere, Viva el commandante !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f5yZGgEZV8&list=PL4128DBB982851027&...
youtube.com/watch?v=H4VnQrjph2g&
youtube.com/watch?v=Ap7pinE5X9g&
youtube.com/watch?v=V7F82wTH6_U&

In reply to Trangia:

How about choosing 'Gudrun Ensslin' as your UKC pseudonym? As a key member of the Baader Meinhof gang she was involved in bombings, arson attacks, murders, plane hijackings and ended up hanging herself in a prison cell. What a tragic, misguided waste of a life.

In reply to off-duty:


You need a premier account to get to choose what to argue about. ()

In reply to Pekkie:


Rather like deciding to call yourself Ian Huntley, Dr Shipman, Saddam Hussein, Hitler or Stalin.

There's no accounting for taste.