/ Have you ever read anything so disgusting?

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TheDrunkenBakers - on 20 Mar 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_bile

This, together with other shite espoused by the traditional practitioners certainly ranks amongst the worst kind of human behaviour.

If this is evidence that humans are advanced, I would rather be a worm.

Makes me ashamed to be homo sapien.
redsonja - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: sickening. wish i hadnt read it
blurty - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Grim
ThunderCat - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I don't even want to read it.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to K.W.:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> The skinny of live animals in China is the worst thing I have ever seen or heard about. It brought tears to my eyes.
>
> WARNING, VERY GRAPHIC.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLcgxIGTFRs

Nope, not gonna look. Not even slightly tempted.

Lukas V-L - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

If I had a quid for every time Id heard the expression "used in chinese medicine" after "(insert rare animals testicles/horn/fin/or some other disgusting animal by-product)" I could retire tomorrow.

Seriously, how they conceive using some of these things as a medicine and then come to the conclusion that it works is breathtaking.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Lukas V-L:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> If I had a quid for every time Id heard the expression "used in chinese medicine" after "(insert rare animals testicles/horn/fin/or some other disgusting animal by-product)" I could retire tomorrow.
>
> Seriously, how they conceive using some of these things as a medicine and then come to the conclusion that it works is breathtaking.

With China soon to be the world's greatest economic force and with the power to change the world for the better, you would imagine that it would want to create a rather better impression of itself.

If Germany started to eat its rare and endangered creatures, the rest of Europe would create a real fuss.

Human rights and barbaric practices of all measures seem to be completely ignored by the rest of the world when it comes to China. When the Syrian state massacres its own people the West arms the opposition and makes bold political statements yet when China does the same thing, we all stand watching with nothing but a murmur.

Apart from cheap manufactured goods, I dont see much to applaud China at the moment.
Darren Jackson - on 20 Mar 2013
Flat4matt - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I feel horrible.

Humans are gods worst creation.

Im disgusted.
ice.solo - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

ive spent years in china and its all depressingly true. even in major cities rare animal bits are often openly for sale. at one time the biggest animal skin market ive ever seen was right outside the terracotta warrior world heritage area. along with the skinning facility....

the problem extends far beyond china tho - smuggling of animal bits from bordering countries is big business, as is the stripping of sea life (sea horses in particular).

mind you - peoople in china are not much better treated. its absolutely no excuse, but in a place where prisoners are still paraded before execution, cripples jeered at in freak shows, burns victims beg in groups in subways and even public safety announcements use graphic, actual footage ('wear your bike helmets kids, dont carry fireworks in hang luggage etc...') its not hard to see how respect for life is eroded.
redsonja - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Flat4matt: well said
needvert on 21 Mar 2013
F*ck that youtube video made me feel sick. I've seen a lot of things on the internet, I'd seen part of that years ago. It still ranks as the most disgusting cruelty I've ever seen.

I don't have a problem with things dying...But having skin completely removed, and being left to slowly die...

Important to watch though, to spread awareness.

jazzyjackson on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to needvert:

theres no torture heinous enough to treat these wretched scumbags.
We have earned the comet strike.
needvert on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to jazzyjackson:

Disappointing none of the bystanders intervened, not to save the poor animal but to end it swiftly.
Dan_S - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Flat4matt:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> I feel horrible.
>
> Humans are gods worst creation.
>
> Im disgusted.

Humans are humans worst creation, not any god you choose to believe in. Blaming a deity is passing the buck and not taking responsibility for your, and your fellow mans actions.

We're fundamentally monkeys motivated by greed.

Any deity that allows the horrors that humankind has achieved over the centuries and sits back and does nothing, is not worth believing in.

ring ouzel on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: The illegal wildlife trade is just immense, the only trade bigger is drugs. The profits are huge and the penalites are low to non-existent. The cruelty is beyond belief.

Been in India, China, Tibet, Nigeria, Kenya etc and it is really bad.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Dan_S:
> (In reply to Flat4matt)
> [...]
>
> Humans are humans worst creation, not any god you choose to believe in. Blaming a deity is passing the buck and not taking responsibility for your, and your fellow mans actions.
>
> We're fundamentally monkeys motivated by greed.
>
> Any deity that allows the horrors that humankind has achieved over the centuries and sits back and does nothing, is not worth believing in.

Totally agree.

I cant watch the video but I can well imagine the barbarity.

I was watching some TV last night and a WWF (or some other charity) was advertising fr funding to save Tigers and they showed some experts of Tigers being trapped in snares and spring loaded traps.

I then did a little Wikipedia-ing and saw that tiger numbers are no more then 3500 in the wild now, from over 100k a century ago. I suspect that when we look at Elephants, Rhinos and the rows of shark fins that the same level of destruction will be shown but in the animals themselves and their environment. Animals do not seek make others suffer so why do humans.

Its grotesque.

When I think about this stuff, together with the way that we sometimes treat each other, it makes me really sad and makes me feel helpless.

I remember seeing an article some time ago of a teenager whom committed suicide. The note he left was very touching and was published and it brought a lump to my throat. The core of his message was that whilst he wasnt depressed as such, he just could cope with seeing the way that humans were treating the planet and its inhabitants and felt that the only way he could deal with this would be to end it.

I cant say I feel that desperate but it does make me sad.

redsonja - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: i know the sad and helpless feeling well. what a mess we are making of the world
Indy - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> (In reply to Lukas V-L)
> [...]
>
> With China soon to be the world's greatest economic force

Its able to do this because the likes of you and me buy products labeled 'Made in China' if people where truly disgusted enough then people would boycott Chinese made products interestingly it creates nothing. I've often heard and read questions along the lines of why do the Chinese people put up with such a repressive regime and its because of the huge economic might of the Chinese economy. Once the economy starts to falter and you have large numbers of people sitting at home in poverty the seeds of revolution will be sown. The Communist will get kicked out and they know it.

Was under the impression that Youtube had rules against anything too graphic. I'm feeling delicate but inquisitive. Whats the Youtube link about? I'm to scared to click it ;)
tom.e - on 21 Mar 2013
ads.ukclimbing.com
TheDrunkenBakers - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: Jees, make it stop, someone!!

I buy free range and organic where possible (although I suppose some of this is fraudulent) but cheap protein like this should be stopped, and in the Netherlands!!!!! WTF, its not a 3rd world state.
Philip on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

That article is 4 years old. Sow stall are now banned, but are still used as some countries aren't enforcing the change well enough.

Buying pork from pigs that have lived as actual pigs is virtually impossible if you use supermarkets. Forget purveyors of misery meat Tesco and Asda and look at Waitrose and you'll still struggle to find sausage rolls or pork pies from pigs that are free-range. Without buying organic you'll struggle with ham, bacon and sausages. Yet most butchers will have it. I make my own sausage rolls from Packington Pork, but for pork pies I buy Riverford's.
Eric9Points - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Indy:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
> [...]
>
> Its able to do this because the likes of you and me buy products labeled 'Made in China' if people where truly disgusted enough then people would boycott Chinese made products interestingly it creates nothing. I've often heard and read questions along the lines of why do the Chinese people put up with such a repressive regime and its because of the huge economic might of the Chinese economy. Once the economy starts to falter and you have large numbers of people sitting at home in poverty the seeds of revolution will be sown.

Unlikely to happen for quite some time. Unless en masse we stop buying TVs, Ipads, phones, clothes, bikes and suchlike from them.

Antway, my view is that the Chinese are less likely to indulge in animal cruelty or make medicines out of bits of rare ones if they are rich enough to afford proper medicines and a first world lifestyle, i.e. one that is divorced from nature like most of ours are.
jkarran - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Indy:

> Its able to do this because the likes of you and me buy products labeled 'Made in China' if people where truly disgusted enough then people would boycott Chinese made products interestingly it creates nothing.

China 'creates nothing'? Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding what may be a typo but that's a rather interesting take on modern and historical China.

> I've often heard and read questions along the lines of why do the Chinese people put up with such a repressive regime and its because of the huge economic might of the Chinese economy. Once the economy starts to falter and you have large numbers of people sitting at home in poverty the seeds of revolution will be sown. The Communist will get kicked out and they know it.

Do you think an all out capitalist China would be any better? The problem is people, not communism, not the Chinese, it's myopic, greedy (ordinary) people.

OP: Yeah, I've read worse, far worse but bear farms sound grim.

jk
Shani - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Flat4matt:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> I feel horrible.
>
> Humans are gods worst creation.
>
> Im disgusted.

I to am appalled by this practice but leaving aside the theistic nature of your post I must take issue with the anthropomorphism.

There are plenty of parasitic life on earth whose 'victims' endure truly grisly fates. For example you should read about the parasitic wasp (scienceblogs.com/notrocketscience/2008/06/03/parasitic-wasp-turns-caterpillars-into-headbanging-bodyguard/).
Alyson - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Shani: The difference being that the parasite acts for its own survival. It has carved an ecological niche for itself - a survival strategy - and I have no doubt it is not sufficiently advanced to be aware of causing any suffering. Humans knowingly inflict pain and suffering, both on each other and on other species, and not one single human life will be saved by keeping a bear in a cage with an open wound straight into its gall bladder.

Anthropormorphism would be doing exactly what you're doing - comparing or judging the actions of another species (ie a parasite) on human values.
as646 on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: With regards to animals being skinned alive; there is some controversy surrounding the legitimacy of that video. It was made by PETA and they refused to show the original, unedited footage, which strikes me as somewhat suspicious. Not to mention that skinning animals alive seems to be an incredibly inefficient way of obtaining skin.
TheDrunkenBakers - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to Shani) The difference being that the parasite acts for its own survival. It has carved an ecological niche for itself - a survival strategy - and I have no doubt it is not sufficiently advanced to be aware of causing any suffering. Humans knowingly inflict pain and suffering, both on each other and on other species, and not one single human life will be saved by keeping a bear in a cage with an open wound straight into its gall bladder.
>
> Anthropormorphism would be doing exactly what you're doing - comparing or judging the actions of another species (ie a parasite) on human values.

Utterly, utterly agree.

ring ouzel on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Alyson: If you talk to people who treat animals in this way and ask if they realise they are causing suffering they do not get it at all. They dont know what you are talking about. There are many cultures like this. I have had plenty of people in Nigeria, Kenya, Russia etc think I am unhinged for wanting to protect animals, to them its an irrelevance. It used to wind me right up. They say that travel broadens the mind but it can also bolster your prejudices.
Shani - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to Shani) The difference being that the parasite acts for its own survival. It has carved an ecological niche for itself - a survival strategy - and I have no doubt it is not sufficiently advanced to be aware of causing any suffering. Humans knowingly inflict pain and suffering, both on each other and on other species, and not one single human life will be saved by keeping a bear in a cage with an open wound straight into its gall bladder.
>
> Anthropormorphism would be doing exactly what you're doing - comparing or judging the actions of another species (ie a parasite) on human values.

I've made no judgement on the actions of another species - and that was my point.

When someone says 'Humans are gods worst creation' I was countering to say that if you wanted to stop 'suffering' in this world there are plenty of species that suffer incredibly painful lives and long slow deaths - and not at the hands of humans.

That the parasatised suffer just 'is' (and to me it is truly appalling whatever the cause of the suffering).
TheDrunkenBakers - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to as646:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers) With regards to animals being skinned alive; there is some controversy surrounding the legitimacy of that video. It was made by PETA and they refused to show the original, unedited footage, which strikes me as somewhat suspicious. Not to mention that skinning animals alive seems to be an incredibly inefficient way of obtaining skin.

I didnt post the vid and have not seen it so I cant comment. My personal rant is about how humans are pretty vile overall. I know there are many things we have done in the past which are inexcusable but i amd viewing this in the 21st century, not the 1400s.

Let's exclude the skinning for a moment and look at the practice of turkish and russian bears being held captive and beaten to entertain, the chinese taking and eating endangered turtles, the chinese bile farming bear, the chinese slaughtering millions of sharks for the fins (and leaving the rest), the jungles being leveled for palm plantations, over 90% of madagascar being deforested putting one of the most delicate ecosystems at permanent risk, south american amazon forests being cut down for homogenous farming, pollution in all parts of the world due to over crowding, over fishing of the north sea by the french and spanish, trawlers scouring the sea bed killing everything and damaging delicate coral reefs, the new farming of krill by the thousand tonne putting whales at risk and the painful hunting by harpoons of those most majestic of creatures. These are the things we see on the telly and make for good soundbite for GreenPeace but there are far more.

A lot of this is done by Jonny foreigner but lets look closer to home so as not to appear racist. Overfishing, badger baiting, fox hunting, littering, dog fighting, raptor persecution, hare coursing, over development of the greenbelt, child abuse.

This is a pretty solemn look at the world. Im quite an optimistic character and I dont stay awake at night thinking about this stuff but when i do think about it, it really makes me wonder whether we really deserve to be the custodians of the planet.*

Im atheist and see this stuff as proof enough that no god, whether interventional or otherwise would allow this to happen. if I was religious, i would question daily why God wasnt doing something about it.

*I also recognise there a lot to love about people too, I'm just highlighting the bad parts and showing my frustration that I'm powerless to do much about it.

jazzyjackson on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to needvert:
> (In reply to jazzyjackson)
>
> Disappointing none of the bystanders intervened, not to save the poor animal but to end it swiftly.

havent watched it but absolutely. How could anyone witnes that and not be broken after! Makes me so angry
redsonja - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers: im not sure if im atheist or agnostic. but what you say about God is exactly the same as me
ring ouzel on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to jazzyjackson: If you intervened you would be, at best, beaten to within an inch of your life.
cap'nChino - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
> (In reply to K.W.)
> [...]
>
> Nope, not gonna look. Not even slightly tempted.

I saw that video a while back. I have a thick skin and have watched some shocking stuff in my life but that video was something else. I've never been effected by something that much in my entire life. Truly shocking to think it goes on.

I don't want to cause a stir but these nations demanding such commodities really need to take a step back and look at their methods and the benefits. China does seem to be one of the worst offenders by being driven by their herbal medicines.
cap'nChino - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to Flat4matt:
> (In reply to TheDrunkenBakers)
>
> I feel horrible.
>
> Humans are gods worst creation.
>
> Im disgusted.

Ha. Nice try ;-)
cap'nChino - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

>
> A lot of this is done by Jonny foreigner but lets look closer to home so as not to appear racist. Overfishing, badger baiting, fox hunting, littering, dog fighting, raptor persecution, hare coursing, over development of the greenbelt, child abuse.


To a degree you're right. But we are not doing these on an industrial scale. It's just a small minority and it is not part of our national culture, plus the government doesn't necessarily support these actions.
gd303uk - on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to cap'nChino: we are factory farming on an industrial scale, the misery we cause here in the west has become acceptable , many people may up say our farming doesn't cause misery to livestock, we are deluding ourselves to think the life cycle of a lot of the animals we eat here in the west had a life free from suffering.
China and many other countries have little regard for the welfare of the animals they use for food or "medicine"
I am far from sticking up for china and the bear bile thing, I have seen footage of this, the bears kept in wire cages off the ground unable to move with a pipe inserted through the skin in to the gallbladder / bile duct, they literally tap the bear the way we would a keg of beer.
We accept things , as normal when for some people from a different perspective see things as horrific. As we do here with the skinning of dogs and tapping of bear bile.
Here is a film I recommend some of you watch, if you can't , why is that?
Earthlings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D19eBAfUFK
Bimble on 21 Mar 2013
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Let's not forget the ivory trade, 86 elephants killed in a single night this week http://www.treehugger.com/endangered-species/86-elephants-33-pregnant-slaughtered-one-night.html

I hunt for food, but there's no way I condone the cruelty of the ivory trade, bear bile, live skinning (how could you be so inhumane?!), or any other cruel practice including factory farming, vivisection or badger baiting here in the UK. I accept that as a meat-eater, I need to kill animals, and am happy with that, as long as they don't suffer. Those aforementioned bunch of bastards don't even seem to think that animals suffer pain.

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