/ Winter ethics

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goose299 - on 29 Mar 2013
A friend of mine climbed two grooves yesterday then uploaded this picture.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151310982955807&set=a.422397825806.200564.583480806&am...

Thoughts? I've tried to teach him about ethics before and when stuff is in nick or not. He spat his dummy when i told him this time.
top cat - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

maybe depends on how much of the rest of the route was fair game?
If it was all like the photo, well, it speaks for itself.
martinph78 on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

> Thoughts?

You've probably just lost a friend.

Simon_Sheff - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

That's a joke, what a pair of prats
goose299 - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Martin1978:
Ha he already deleted me off fb when I started commenting saying how it wasn't in nick and he's basically tooling the route
martinph78 on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299: Ouch!

:p
David Barratt - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299: Has part of the rope been photoshopped out???
goose299 - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to David Barratt:
Not that I'm aware of. Does look like it though. Maybe it goes behind a flake. Not done the route so wouldn't know
In reply to goose299:
> I've tried to teach him....
Hmmmm......I think this reflects worse on you than on him!
There is not much worse in a friendship than someone getting all high and mighty about something. Live and let live.
David Barratt - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299: Ah yes, that makes more sence. I've not dry tooled before, but is this just a question of the ethics of drytooling? or is it one of saftey?
Roberttaylor - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299: Photoshopped troll, abandon thread.
goose299 - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
o.k, maybe teach isn't the right word. more pass on knowledge
goose299 - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Roberttaylor:
oh p*ss off
Andrew Wilson - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:
Does not look much different ( what I can actually see) from the photo of Dom donnini in the guidebook on the first ascent.
If I was him I would have deleted you too, the ultimate sanction!

Radioactiveman - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

Given that 2 grooves is a mixed route that doesnt get plastered and isnt a summer line the facebook picture in isolation without a picture of the whole route makes it look worse than it actually is I think. There are no turf,alpine plants to damage on the part of the top pitch that they are on. I would be more upset at people tramping up the easier gullies out of condition throwing turf behind them etc

Sat having a brew after getting back off the hill with the guidebook in my hand and I would suggest it is in similar condition to the picture in the lakes winter guide tbh. Not meant to be provocative but having climbed the route and seen it a couple of times this year I thought it reasonable to pass on my opinion. You need to know the route and see it to make a true judgement rather than one part of the route.

gilliesp on 29 Mar 2013
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUOrZ1uz51s

(John Cunningham and Creagh Dhu climbing The Cobbler in 1978 on Recess Route, climbing a summer route in snowy conditions. Taken from the TV series 'Mountain Days').

I daresay your hitherto pal? was on a more taxing route for which drytooling was maybe the objective. You don't name the route... This sensitive? information could be a more contentious issue...
Petarghh - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to top cat:
> (In reply to goose299)
>
> maybe depends on how much of the rest of the route was fair game?
> If it was all like the photo, well, it speaks for itself.

Not much at all. Climbed there today and it was obviously out of nick. Shame when other routes were in prime condition.

Seems like a case of setting out for an objective no matter what !
Doghouse - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Roberttaylor:
> (In reply to goose299) Photoshopped troll, abandon thread.

Is there some kind of prize to be the first person to shout "troll" on this forum? - pathetic!
Roberttaylor - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Doghouse: If you can solve the mystery of the vanishing ropes for us that would be much appreciated.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3e93548b9e2a41df4f0bee357fe227b3/tumblr_miy3ksoycF1s136olo1_400.gif
mbambi - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Roberttaylor: Look at the next photo, it shows the same type of thing, seems likely that the ropes go behind and to the side of a rock feature.
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Simon_Sheff - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
> (In reply to goose299)
> [...]
> Hmmmm......I think this reflects worse on you than on him!
> There is not much worse in a friendship than someone getting all high and mighty about something. Live and let live.


That's not what was said when someone was tooling at Millstone, was it?
Just cause its not a Peak Crag doesn't change the fact it's ridiculous.
Roberttaylor - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to mbambi: The evidence seems to indicate that is is real, wishful thinking on my part that it was otherwise?

To the OP: My apologies for the false accusation. Try being more polite online, it may help you retain friends offline while still disagreeing with them (hard to do when it is such an emotive subject, I know).

R
Hannes on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299: well it certainly isn't in winter conditions but then getting your mate lynched on UKC, I'm not sure what to think of this whole thing to be honest.
JanBella - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299: picture of two grooves route in the lakes guide looks exactly same to me. Brown cove had fair amount of ice and snow on yesterday. It's a mixed route and everybody is happy to climb stuff like this in scotland so why not lakes? grow up it's just a rock.
Petarghh - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to JanBella: there was snow around those routes on Millstone when it was "tooled" so how is this different ?
JanBella - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Petarghh: it's not
Doghouse - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Roberttaylor:
> (In reply to Doghouse) If you can solve the mystery of the vanishing ropes for us that would be much appreciated.
>


Just zoom the picture and it's obvious the ropes disappear behind the rock.
ice.solo - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Radioactiveman:

hey you!! we will have none of your actual experience and and real-life knowledge of the route ruining an otherwise good witch-burning!

get your pitchfork and hood and join the mob while winter still lasts, before have to back to burning boulderers in the summer.
KellyKettle - on 29 Mar 2013
In reply to Roberttaylor:
> (In reply to mbambi)(hard to do when it is such an emotive subject, I know).

Sure ethics are important, but they're not worth losing a friend over, not even close! (Something which *assuming a polite exchange*; reflects badly on the OP's friend and their reaction... A friend can deal with being told they're wrong, even if they disagree).
Lew13 - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

Certainly doesn't look anything like - http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=133638
JanBella - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to Stewy12: no it doesn't, but do you really think that 1cm of plastered snow makes any difference? I mean come on if you try to place you axe in that it will go straight through and to the rock.
mark turnbull - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to Stewy12:
Looks like cold aid climbing to me
Ianto Bach - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
There's a problem here. Some of these boulderers are out there, shirt off, when it's - 5 & snow all around. Then, the toolers are extending their playtime with their shiny tools and hardshells well into British Summer Time. How's a narrow minded lynch mob member to know what to do! Can't we have some formal seasons for lynching activities? Heaven forbid (if there is such a place, but that's a whole new Easter thread) the mob will have to think for themselves...

I
Lew13 - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to JanBella:

Probably not, but aesthetically it actually looks like a winter route and no doubt it would feel like one. The OP's picture, IMHO does not look like a route being climbed in condition but I guess we can't tell without being there, right?
Srick - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

I'm confused. Why do people care so much that they've used tools on a bit of rock?
Lew13 - on 30 Mar 2013
In reply to RichardAWatson:

Given that your a new user & don't list winter climbing on your profile I'll refrain from shouting troll.

In short no hoar/rime/verglas means the rock is going to be damaged more so. Surely on bare rock it would be easier without tools anyway?
KellyKettle - on 31 Mar 2013
In reply to Stewy12:
> Surely on bare rock it would be easier without tools anyway?

I'd assume that depends on the person and the route...


I do get a feeling that the strident nature of opposition to tooling and climbing in lean conditions, is more that it represents the thin end of the wedge than that it's always intrinsically bad.

On "soft", loosely bonded or flaky rock types, I can understand that just like placing pegs, lots and lots of people hooking and torquing axes in the same spots could cause significant erosion and scar formation, but I wouldn't think that was universally applicable, after all I sharpen all of my tools on natural stones and they don't experience any significant wear...

However, adding another (rather byzantine) variable to the "is it a good idea to climb this right now" equation; risks giving people who lack all the information the impression that it's ok to use tools all the time, everywhere... leading to an increase in inappropriate use of them and eventually damage to crags. Hence the blanket opposition.
Jamie B - on 31 Mar 2013
In reply to Stewy12:

> In short no hoar/rime/verglas means the rock is going to be damaged more so.

Not really, the above aren't substantial enough to "protect" rock from scratching. If anything people are more likely to place their feet carefully and avoid pedalling about if the rock is clear.

Not a defence, just an observation..
Srick - on 31 Mar 2013
In reply to Stewy12:

Thanks for not crying troll! Often said to much on this site.

I do winter climbing, but admittedly I've never experienced mixed climbing, and generally only second up to grade 2, 3 at a push. Still got a lot to learn, hence the question! thanks for the clarification.
In reply to RichardAWatson:

> Thanks for not crying troll! Often said to much on this site.

But listen to Jamie, not Stewy. Hoar and snow on rock does not protect it in anyway from scratches, indeed the opposite - if you can see bare rock you can pick a foot hold and put your crampon points on it, just like you would in summer with a rock boot. When covered in hoar to tend to scrape around desperate to find something that your front points will catch on.
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Alex Slipchuk on 31 Mar 2013
In reply to TobyA: look at any of the great ridges in summer, a lot of route finding involves following the scratches
xplorer on 31 Mar 2013
In reply to goose299:

Give it a rest!
Exile - on 31 Mar 2013
In reply to many points:

In my view:

It's not winter climbing, it's dry tooling in winter. This should be avoided as the challenge of winter routes that are snowed up rock routes is that the rock is snowed up. This has everything to do with winter climbing ethics and nothing to do with protecting the rock - winter climbing damages rock. (For more thoughts on this see below.)

The route does readily snow up as the photo previously linked to in this thread shows. The climber in the photo is me on the day we did the direct finish, I repeated the route eleven months later, in whiter conditions, and finished by the original finish. That was two very snowy ascents in two different seasons in the same year.

In relation to the photo in the guide, the following is a, (long!) extract from an e-mail I sent to Steve Reed 18 months ago, after the Lakes Winter debate:

__________________________________

I’m aware that what is ‘in nick’ is opening a whole new can of worms, and actually think that the conditions section from page 17 onwards in the existing winter guide is very good. However I also feel that this needs to be a message that is consistently presented through the guide. As a result I would say that a small number of the photos contained in the guide do not back up this description of conditions, particularly that of Two Grooves. I know that one photo does not tell the whole story of a routes condition; I am not doubting the validity of their ascent as I was not there and don’t know what the rest of the route looked like. However I would question the use of that, or similar images, in a guide book that also states ‘the presence of snow is a must for winter climbing’ as less experienced climbers may well feel that practically bare rocky routes are fair game.

What results can be this:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=133570

When I would argue that what is more desirable is this:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=133638

Now this may not actually be an issue on Two Grooves itself, but imagine these two images were of Engineer Slab, or Pisgah Buttress, or Bowfell Buttress and I think most would have an issue with the condition of the first photo.

As I’ve said I think encouraging / reinforcing the ascent of these routes only in good winter condition would be a positive step, I think the FRCC guide book is key in this as it will be many people’s first / only point of reference so needs to give a consistent message. I think image choice is key in this consistency.

_______________________________

In Steve's reply he indicated the inclusion of the Two Grooves shot was questioned by the guide book team at the time, effectively for the reasons I've given, but they didn't want to delay publication any longer so went with it. This is completely understandable given the situation, and is something that has been remedied in the current edition.

In regard to conditions and friends - pick you conditions carefully and your friends more so!




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