UKC

An alternative conservative view!

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 Offwidth 08 Apr 2013
"As a Conservative I have no pleasure in exposing David Cameron's deficit claims. However, as long as the party continues to talk down the economy via the blame game, confidence will not be given an opportunity to return. For it is an undeniable and inescapable economic fact: without confidence and certainty there can be no real growth."

http://tinyurl.com/9sxzewg
OP Offwidth 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

continued....

"" Below are the three deficit claims - the mess. The evidence comes from the IMF, OECD, OBR, HM Treasury, ONS and even George Osborne. The claims put into context are:

CLAIM 1

The last government left the biggest debt in the developed world.

After continuously stating the UK had the biggest debt in the world George Osborne admits to the Treasury Select Committee that he did not know the UK had the lowest debt in the G7? Watch: Also, confirmed by the OECD Those who use cash terms (instead of percentages) do so to scare, mislead and give half the story.

Its common sense, in cash terms a millionaire's debt would be greater than most people. Therefore, the UK would have a higher debt and deficit than most countries because, we are the sixth largest economy. Hence, its laughable to compare UK's debt and deficit with Tuvalu's who only have a GDP/Income of £24 million whilst, the UK's income is £1.7 Trillion.

Finally, Labour in 1997 inherited a debt of 42% of GDP. By the start of the global banking crises 2008 the debt had fallen to 35% - a near 22% reduction page 6 ONS Surprisingly, a debt of 42% was not seen as a major problem and yet at 35% the sky was falling down?

CLAIM 2

Labour created the biggest deficit in the developed world by overspending.

Firstly, the much banded about 2010 deficit of over 11% is false. This is the PSNB (total borrowings) and not the actual budget deficit which was -7.7% - OBR Economic and Fiscal Outlook March 2012 page 19 table 1.2

Secondly, in 1997 Labour inherited a deficit of 3.9% of GDP (not a balanced budget ) and by 2008 it had fallen to 2.1% - a reduction of a near 50% - Impressive! Hence, it's implausible and ludicrous to claim there was overspending. The deficit was then exacerbated by the global banking crises after 2008. See HM Treasury. Note, the 1994 deficit of near 8% haaaaaah!

Thirdly, the IMF have also concluded the same. They reveal the UK experienced an increase in the deficit as result of a large loss in output/GDP caused by the global banking crisis and not even as result of the bank bailouts, fiscal stimulus and bringing forward of capital spending. It's basic economics: when output falls the deficit increases.

Finally, the large loss in output occurred because the UK like the US have the biggest financial centres and as this was a global banking crises we suffered the most. Hence, the UK had the 2nd highest deficit in the G7 (Not The World) after the US and not as a result of overspending prior to and after 2008- as the IMF concur.

CLAIM 3

Our borrowing costs are low because the markets have confidence in George Osborne's austerity plan and without it the UK will end up like Greece.

Yes, the markets have confidence in our austerity plan and that's why PIMCO the worlds largest bond holder have been warning against buying UK debt.

The real reason why our borrowing costs have fallen and remained low since 2008 is because, savings have increased. As a result, the demand and price for bonds have increased and as there is inverse relationship between the price of bonds and its yield (interest rate) the rates have fallen. Also, the markets expect the economy to remain stagnate. Which means the price for bonds will remain high and hence, our borrowing costs will also remain low.

Secondly, the UK is considered a safe heaven because, investors are reassured the Bank of England will buy up bonds in an event of any sell off - which increases the price of bonds and reduces the effective rate. Note, how rates fell across the EU recently when the ECB announced its bond buying program. Thirdly, because, we are not in the Euro we can devalue our currency to increase exports. Moreover, UK bonds are attractive because, we haven't defaulted on its debt for over 300 years.

David Cameron would like people to believe the markets lend in the same way as retail banks lend to you and I.

Overall, when the facts and figures are put into context these juvenile deficit narratives and sound bites ("mere words and no evidence") simply fail to stand up to the actual facts. The deficit myth is the grosses lie ever enforced upon the people and it has been sold by exploiting people's economic illiteracy.

So, David Cameron when are you going to apologise?

Cameron is playing the blame game to depress confidence and growth to justify austerity. Secondly, to use austerity as justification for a smaller state to gain lower taxes. Thirdly, to paint Labour as a party that can not be trusted with the country's finances again. Therefore, we Conservatives will win a second term because, people vote out of fear. The latter strategy worked the last time in office (18 years) and will work again because, in the end, elections are won and lost on economic credibility. Hence, as people believe Labour created the mess they won't be trusted again.

Finally, as the truth is the greatest enemy of the a lie I urge you to share this on Facebook, Twitter, blogs, text and email etc etc. So the truth can be discovered by all. Finally, have no doubt, people have been mislead by the use of the following strategy:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" Joseph Goebbels ""

I especially like the lateral Godwin's law bit at the end

 DaveN 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth: yeah, but you'll only get rid of this lot if the other lot look better, which is a problem.
 paul mitchell 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth: In the UK the 1000 richest people could pay
off 70% of the national debt and still each have £5 million.
Somehow think that won't happen.Blair was a Thatcherite Lite.

Mitch
 Puppythedog 08 Apr 2013
In reply to paul mitchell: Not so lite where the economic picture was concerned. Some excellent social advances and equalities but the sell off continued under Labour.
Watching how business continued to invade the health service over the past ten years has not been fun.
 Postmanpat 09 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> "As a Conservative I have no pleasure in exposing David Cameron's deficit claims. However, as long as the party continues to talk down the economy via the blame game, confidence will not be given an opportunity to return. For it is an undeniable and inescapable economic fact: without confidence and certainty there can be no real growth."
>
> http://tinyurl.com/9sxzewg

http://www.munknee.com/2012/01/debt-to-gdp-ratio-of-10-largest-economies/

This shows the uk having thesecond highest debt/gdp ratio of major counties after Japan.Lies, damned lies, and statistics!

Suspect that low gilt yields are much more about the BOE buying them tan the rbounding savings ratio.


 EeeByGum 09 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> without confidence and certainty there can be no real growth.

Isn't another way of saying this, "without magic pixie dust and the ability to predict the future there can be no real growth"?

If that is an economic fact, that growth is based purely on a feeling in the air, I am really really scared.
 Alyson 09 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum: Umm.. yes. What did you think growth was? Unless you're actually digging something out of the ground, growth is just adding value to an existing product - be it iron or wheat or oil - and that value is what people are prepared to pay for it. So growth is essentially people feeling prosperous and being prepared to pay a bit more (or more people being prepared to pay for the value you are adding).

You can't have watched the economic ups and downs of the last decade and not realised that confidence is everything, and that growth is based on predictions of the future. You are still right to be really really scared though.
 JR 09 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

This very clever article has gone "halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." This story, or Ramesh Patel, hasn't been picked up by any other media channel. Usually a good sign of credibility. If someone can give me a good background to Ramesh Patel and his credentials as an economist, or trader I'd be grateful. He worked for a company called Brown Pound Publishing, sound fishy? And Pro-active Internet Marketing.

https://www.duedil.com/director/911016064/ramesh-patel

The sky wasn't falling down in 2008, but the picture was very different in 2010, post banking crisis. I'm also not an economist capable of writing a full response, but I can spot a dodgy article, and selective uses of facts and dates, and this line is a cracker:

"...it has been sold by exploiting people's economic illiteracy."
 Postmanpat 09 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

"Yes, the markets have confidence in our austerity plan and that's why PIMCO the worlds largest bond holder have been warning against buying UK debt."

This is a deliberately misleading line. In 2010 PIMCO was a big buyer of gilts because it liked the austerity plan as did most institutions (as Osborne claimed). PIMCO is avoiding UK debt now because there is too much of it and not enough austerity rather than because it is against austerity.
Other institutions still beg to differ.

I don't have time but the article is just full of such distortions and misrepresentations.
 another_mark 09 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Regardless of politics, the Huffington Post isn't exactly a reliable source of news or information.
OP Offwidth 09 Apr 2013
In reply to another_mark:

Well given most of the the press in this country I'd beg to differ and he does list his sources so the article stands on its own right.
 JR 09 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

You've gone on to acknowledge in another thread though that it's not as simple as this and has missed off detail.

"Tony and Gordon were experts at generating off-balance sheet debt... "

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=545497

Given the amount that it's been shared on social media, if this were a reputable article it would have been re-hashed by most of the press.

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