/ Sensible taxation - what would you introduce?

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wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
Death and taxes, the only thing guaranteed in life eh

I'd do away with 'road tax'. Working from an average mileage of 1000 miles per month, the equivilant duty would then be placed on fuel. Yes, fuel would go up <again!> but no more road tax. A fleet car doing doing 35k per annum will pay more in duty than the family of 2.4 children doing 12k. Those that use the roads the most, pay the most. What of the staff involved in admin of the discs then? Well they'd still have a job as there would need to be an exemption system in place for 'other' pertol/diesel users. A photo ID would be required on a sort of swipe card and each time you purchased a gallon of petrol for your boat/mower/stove etc the card would be swiped at the petrol station and you'd get the fuel at a slightly reduced rate up until your annual exemption allowance was reached. Full price after that.

Good food will attract a reduced rate of VAT, shit food gets the highest to subsidise the other side. Fruit and veg, fresh cuts of meat, pasta, rice etc all falling in the lower VAT bracket, McDonalds, KFC, Red bull and some ready meals attracting the highest along with salty and sugary snacks. The aims being to encourage better, healthier eating and reduction of obesity.

Alcohol sold in shops for consumption at home would carry a higher tax than alcohol sold in pubs. The off licence subsidising the pub then. Bit of a contradiction here as I'm trying to get folk to eat better but at the same time encouraging them to go to the pub! Pubs are dying on their feet though and we need to keep the industry afloat purely from an income point of view. A drinker is a drinker right?

It's just for fun and may never work in the real world but what taxation schemes would you devise?
DNS on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

From a business point of view I would do away with the tremendously complicated environmental taxes which require business to expend resource on managing the data and Government to employ people to manage compliance. I'd replace the lot with direct taxes on energy - universal, fair and simple to collect.

I'd also scrap the 'Aggregates Levy' imposed on each tonne of material quarried. It costs a bomb to administer and is mainly paid for by Government as they are the largest customer of new construction. Utterly self-defeating.

We have far too many taxes in the UK. The same amount of tax could be raised much more simply and at less cost.
Oliiver - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c: I would tax cigarettes more and alcohol ( cider etc). Lower the tax threshold ffor 40% to 30%minium threshold for tax would be 5%at 8000. I'd tax fat people and also, I'd insist foriegn migrants or any visitor to the UK, had suitable health insurance. I'd do away with welfare hands out unless you actually needed it, and cap child benefit at 3 children.
butteredfrog - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

Drop VAT to 10% while dropping VAT threshold for small businesses to 35K

Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

Abolish all taxes except income tax and "vice taxes" where there is a motivation other than income.

I agree with your view on road tax, the only problem being when alternative fuels become the norm. That's why road pricing needs to be investigated long-term.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to butteredfrog:

I'd abolish VAT entirely, it's a nasty, regressive tax, and a right administrative pain.

OK, under my scheme you could well end up with a base rate of income tax well over 50%, but at least you'd be being honest about it.

Neil
lowersharpnose - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:

What you have a 50% tax on savings interest?
silhouette - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c: I'd abolish Stamp Duty on house purchases; the very name is archaic. We should be making it easy not hard for people to move around as the jobs move around and to buy bigger or smaller properties as their circumstances change.
Although this thing has been around since the eighteenth century it became a particular delight for Gordon Brown to play to his own constituency by hammering the growth regions.
EeeByGum - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:
>
> Good food will attract a reduced rate of VAT, shit food gets the highest to subsidise the other side. Fruit and veg, fresh cuts of meat, pasta, rice etc all falling in the lower VAT bracket, McDonalds, KFC, Red bull and some ready meals attracting the highest along with salty and sugary snacks.

This is already the case. Fresh (essential) foods have 0% VAT. Luxury goods and eat in foods have VAT. I think even if takeaway food were taxed at 20%, people would still eat it, and the folks who tend to live on it are those who can least afford it. You will simply take away even more money from those who have least to give.
ebygomm - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

and cake is clearly essential :)
In reply to blanchie14c: I would abolish all forms of indirect taxation and just have income tax and NI. Ok so income tax would be higher but all goods and services should be cheaper. Massive savings would be made in governmental departments etc.
Mark Westerman - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):
> (In reply to blanchie14c) I would abolish all forms of indirect taxation and just have income tax and NI. Ok so income tax would be higher but all goods and services should be cheaper. Massive savings would be made in governmental departments etc.

Which would mean a lot of wealthy people paying no tax unless you changed how income tax was defined but hen it wouldn't be income tax?

I'd get rid of NI and just add it to imcome tax which is what it is anyway?

cheers
mark
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to lowersharpnose:

Calculate the income from all current taxes except vice taxes. Increase income tax so it brings in that income. Abolish the other taxes.

Neil
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
> I think even if takeaway food were taxed at 20%, people would still eat it
Yep, agree there, fat knackers will still love the chippy, drinkers will still drink and smokers will still smoke. Perhaps the additional revenue I can build with high fast food VAT, I could fund compulsary food/diet/shopping/cooking classes for those in need/stuck in benifit cycle

>and the folks who tend to live on it are those who can least afford it. You will simply take away even more money from those who have least to give.
This is hard but nessesary - hard up? buy some VAT free food and choose to forego fast food

either way though we need to address VAT on home energy, food is essencial but we have to pay VAT on the gas to cook it? Any ideas on that one?

999thAndy on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c: I'd tax the movement of money from account to another (including off to shore accounts) at say 0.1%. We could probably abolish all other taxes
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

VAT is a nasty, complex, regressive and unfair tax. Just get rid of it, IMO.

I've never quite understood why the left-wing EU loves it.

Neil
adsheff - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c: Its important to point out that there is no such thing as road tax, it hasn't existed since the 30s. What you pay is a tax on the vehicle, which is linked to emissions. The tax is not linked to the upkeep of the roads at all, it is nothing to do with roads. Roads are paid for out of general taxation, just like everything else. Hence everyone is allowed to use them and no one has the right to claim any ownership over them.
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to adsheff:
> and no one has the right to claim any ownership over them.

except taxi drivers
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: Because it's almost impossible to avoid/evade.

Therefore my suggestion would be to abolish income tax and put VAT up.

Far more efficient for tax collecting. and you the consumer can decide what you want to pay in tax from your purchases.
puppythedog on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:
For the purposes of 'fair' (in my eyes) taxes I would change the system so that No VAT on essentials which is largely the case but would have someone look at what is essential. Perhaps all famillies can have exemption on one computer per two years for example. I would still like luxury goods to be taxed for this i am thinking new cars for example.
For income tax I would instigate a complete change in all the laws, I would have an assessment done on how much tax is paid by the average worker in this country on the average wage, for arguments sake 22k. This would then be calculated as a percentage of their earnings and everyone who earned over that would have ot be able to prove that they were paying at least that percentage of their wage. This would include national insurance which would be changed to simply be part of the tax. Income would be upon all salaries, dividends, pensions, interest payments and the many other things i do not know about that people use to avoid tax.
Underpinning this would be a 'principle' that people must pay or this is considered illegal and some form of restitution by teh country can be obtained.
I would use some of the money this generates to pay to police it. I wonder how the economy would look if everyone earning over 22k payed a quarter of their salary to the government.
puppythedog on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog: May need ammending to be a percentage of income earned over taxable threshold but I'm not sure. I would need some people who know about stuff like this to work it out for me.
New POD - on 15 Apr 2013
II'd abolish

a) National Insurance.
b) Income Tax below 20K and above 100K make it 40% (20K to 100K it would be 15%)
c) Fuel Duty
d) Road Tax

And then replace it all with more VAT, such that anything built with 90% UK content got 5% Vat, anything with 90% european content got 20% Vat. and anything from USA or China got 50% VAT

EeeByGum - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

> I could fund compulsary food/diet/shopping/cooking classes for those in need/stuck in benifit cycle

But why are you worried about these people. They are a tiny minority. Why not go after the super rich, or tax people with excessively large houses in the countryside to name but a few.

The idea that you will create a healthy nation by taxing high fat foods is laughable.
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

"May need ammending to be a percentage of income earned over taxable threshold"

Yes, it would, otherwise you get the same silly situation as you do with Stamp Duty of it causing unnatural steps in salaries, e.g. if you had the split at 25K someone earning 24,999 would get more take home than someone earning 25,001, which is silly.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

That sort of tax is more about covering costs to society. Similar to alcohol tax, which should cover the cost of policing and health spending relating directly to its consumption.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to New POD:

"And then replace it all with more VAT, such that anything built with 90% UK content got 5% Vat, anything with 90% european content got 20% Vat. and anything from USA or China got 50% VAT"

That would be all very well if you could actually buy, e.g., UK made consumer electronics. As you can't, that's just silly protectionism which will just reduce peoples' quality of life for no good reason.

Neil
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
>

> The idea that you will create a healthy nation by taxing high fat foods is laughable.

I'm under no illusion of that! The only reason i'd introduce that is simply to answer the knockers. Every tax that is introduced the 'other side' argues 'if you are taxing that then what about such and such?' I'd be able to say on my budget day press conference that shitty food will now have a higher levey. If you want to eat shit food you'll a premium. If you want to eat well you'll be rewarded by less VAT. If you want to eat well and get cheaper food but don't know how, we'll help.

Its real tough isn't it, whatever form of taxation you come up with, there will be a creditable argument against it
EeeByGum - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

> Its real tough isn't it, whatever form of taxation you come up with, there will be a creditable argument against it

True. But if you discriminate against the fatties, you also end up putting all the takeaway shop owners out of business which is probably worse on the grand scale of things. Why not just charge people to use the NHS? :-)
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
>
> [...]
>
> True. But if you discriminate against the fatties, you also end up putting all the takeaway shop owners out of business which is probably worse on the grand scale of things. Why not just charge people to use the NHS? :-)

Its no more descrimination that short, skinny folk who get their adult clothes in kids sizes and avoid VAT. Descrimination again the fatties if they HAD to have a donner for dinner and a big tasty meal for tea but they dont have to do they, they could cook themselves some chicken and pasta ;-)
EeeByGum - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

But based on that argument, surely all outdoor activities should be heavily taxed? I am sure there are more severe outdoor related injuries than from those who choose to spend their Saturday afternoons at the Trafford Centre? And what about the new privatised mountain rescue? Surely that should be axed to save money?
ads.ukclimbing.com
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:
Compulsory summit permits for mount Tryfan. Its the only way
silhouette - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to New POD:
> II'd abolish
> c) Fuel Duty
> d) Road Tax

So that the cost of having 33 million vehicles on the road is borne by people who aren't driving?
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to silhouette:

The existence of road vehicles, particularly those carrying freight, benefits pretty much everyone.

Neil
wbo - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: Not cars that are effectively toys. Fuel duty is effective here, as is taxing by engine size and emissions
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to wbo:
> as is taxing by engine size and emissions

There could also be an agrument for taxing curb weight too. I'm pretty sure that over an extended period of time a BMW X5 wears roads a bit more than my 1.4 Astra.
We need to find a way of taxing caravans too ;-)
EeeByGum - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

> There could also be an agrument for taxing curb weight too. I'm pretty sure that over an extended period of time a BMW X5 wears roads a bit more than my 1.4 Astra.

Depends if your tracking is out or not! :-)
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to wbo:

Cars are not "effectively toys", don't be silly. People use cars for all sorts of important travel purposes. If they went away tomorrow, the railway wouldn't be able to cope (for instance).

The long-term solution to that problem is lifestyle and work changes, e.g more homeworking.

Neil
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:
It is surprising what axle weight can do. In the McNulty report it was found that the class 185 units on the Morecambe branch line tripled the track maintence after these units replaced the Class 153 units. It went from 1m PA to 3m PA and it was down to the heavier weight. Railways i know but there we go. Anyway, thats another thread :-)
cuppatea on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

Sureley the "fatties" are good for the environment as they act as quite effective carbon stores.
Isn't there a danger in using green taxes to subsidise their greens?
wilkie14c - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to cuppatea:
Thats the touble though, the only greens a lot of fatties eat are mint aeros
silhouette - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> People use cars for all sorts of important travel purposes. If they went away tomorrow, the railway wouldn't be able to cope

You are so right; I have to drive to the dry cleaners which is three quarters of a mile away because the railway can't cope. Somebody did mention something called "walking" but I couldn't get the hang of it.

Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to silhouette:

Cars are used for local journeys when they needn't be, I'll give you. But the way the economy is at the moment people aren't just making local journeys. The commute to work for many people is longer than ever.

Yes, a single person living in rented accommodation can move closer to work each time, and some are quite sanctimonious about it. But if you've got a family to consider (and two jobs in two different places) it's not all that simple at all.

Neil
fraserbarrett - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:
Yes the axle weight relates to road damage as roughly a power of 4. So yes that x5 does roughly 2.5 time the damage of your astra, but that's nothing compared to the 4500 times of a 44 ton lorry!
But if you use this system your road tax would be virtually nothing but the goods in the shops would cost a fortune to deliver and be much more expensive to buy.

PS even the most efficient x5 pays 260 vehicle duty compared to your 105 so pretty much already they're paying for the extra damage they do.....
adsheff - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c: haha lol
Graeme Alderson on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
> I've never quite understood why the left-wing EU loves it.
>
> Neil

Why does the right-wing USA also love it?

Dax H - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c: Drop VAT back to 15%. Bin the waste in business charging buisiness VAT and then claiming it back again, millions would be saved if VAT registered buisiness only charged vat on a product when it reaches the non vat registered end user, every item sold has had vat paid and claimed back multiple times costing a fortune in admin.
Bin all the stealth and not so stealth tax on buisiness and alow us to make some money, the more we make the more we can grow and both employ more people and pay more direct taxation.
Neil Williams - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

The right-wing USA has sales tax, which is different from VAT (far less complicated) and usually far lower (tends to be around 8% or less).

Neil
Sam_in_Leeds - on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to blanchie14c:

I'd introduce a flat rate of tax - say 25% and abolish NI/INCOME TAX

How can it be right that you pay MORE tax the harder you work/earn!

Worked quite well in pre banking crisis Baltic countries!

I'd also make all benefits in the form of a food stamps/electric tokens etc.
SCrossley on 15 Apr 2013
In reply to Sam_in_Leeds:
> (In reply to blanchie14c)
>
>
>
> I'd also make all benefits in the form of a food stamps/electric tokens etc.

I thought that way, but listening to this may give you a different perspective http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/04/12/177063399/episode-451-why-some-people-love-tax-day

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