/ Rant about Gove:

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puppythedog on 18 Apr 2013
Michael Gove is an idiot. For those who don't know he know's f*&K all about teaching, he only comes from an ideological perspective. Doesn't realise that Teachers (who know what they're talking about) think his ideas for the curriculum are the sort of idiot ideas you get from people who go to a medical specialist and then disagree. If this were to happen you would have to either employ more teachers or reduce the time kids are at school because the work that goes into planning lessons so that they are effective and evidence based is already a barbaric ask. He typifies what I hate about this and previous governments. Rather than speaking from an evidence base they choose to spew rhetoric just like "Dave' slagging of Nurses. what a bunch of


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-calls-for-longer-school-terms-8579055.htm...
neilh - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:
Its been talked about for years from what I remember, even before Gove.
pec on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog: I think you might find a lot a teachers agree with some of his reforms, reducing the amount of coursework and the endless cycle of exams and resits will be a big help in reducing workload. Quite a few will also welcome a toughening up of the curriculum so that children actually have to know some things aswell as express opinions about them.
Its the other nonsense they need to worry about like death by targets and the overbearing threat of offsted which creates a climate of fear and encourages a slavish adherance to prescriptive lesson formats whilst stifling imagination, creativity and individuality in teaching.
Then there's all the working conditions nonsense like regional pay, performance related pay etc.
earlsdonwhu - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to pec: ....and now the silly twunk is suggesting our holidays are too long!

This is all part of the plans to solve the pensions crisis. Work harder and longer so life expectancy drops. Oh well, back to a bit more marking now (20.55)
In reply to puppythedog: In general I agree with you, but with many things I reckon it's difficult to distinguish "evidence" from "fashionable opinion", and often layperson's opinions are just as valid as experts. This might be one of those issues, because there are wider societal considerations, which are not scientific in nature.

Gove is a wanker though. I don't know what school holiday length they have in many countries, but in Russian their summer holiday is about twice as long as ours.

Oh, and why do degrees take 3 years, with like 7 hours a week teaching time. He could sort that out first.
Gordonbp - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to earlsdonwhu: Sorry I have to debunk that.
When I was working I usually left home at 7.00 am and got home often not until 8.00 pm and quite often 9.00 or 10.00 pm - with FOUR WEEKS HOLIDAY....
The New NickB - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordonbp:
> (In reply to earlsdonwhu) Sorry I have to debunk that.
> When I was working I usually left home at 7.00 am and got home often not until 8.00 pm and quite often 9.00 or 10.00 pm - with FOUR WEEKS HOLIDAY....

What do you think you are debunking?
3leggeddog on 18 Apr 2013
marsbar - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
>
> Gove is a wanker though.

That's the basic issue.




Timmd on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Gordonbp)
> [...]
>
> What do you think you are debunking?

Beats me. I'm glad he has though, I feel much better for it. (:-))
EddInaBox on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> ...often layperson's opinions are just as valid as experts.

No they aren't.
LP - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to earlsdonwhu: Just to make you feel better I'm still marking (22:29).
Oliiver - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog: Michael gove needs to tackle the issue with grade inflation. Grade A* is so common now that we need to either: make exams harder or bring in A**. People arnt getting cleverer, the exams are becoming easier. Take for example physics, the grade boundaries one year were 70% for an A* on the aqa syllabus that's ridiculous.
Dave Kerr - on 18 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

For all the brouhaha and tohubohu in scottish education right now at least we don't have a tool like Gove in charge.

I give thanks for this daily.

In reply to EddInaBox:
> (In reply to Submit to Gravity)
>
> [...]
>
> No they aren't.

When it comes to the length of a school year, teachers aren't the only interested party, education isn't the only consideration.
Gordonbp - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB: The phrase "thinks our holidays are too long".
Gordonbp - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Oliiver: The answer is to do away with grades completely and use percentages....my O level certificates have percentages on...
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Thread: Re the school holidays. Does anyone know how ours compare to other European countries/US/Asia?

Whilst it's understandable that teachers are not going to be too receptive to a cutting of their holiday entitlement, it's worth considering that many parents find it very tough financially when their children are off school.

As for the idea of the length of the school day to be extended for more sport participation, could be some merit in that.
Irk the Purist - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

What are the other considerations apart from education when considering the school year?
Gordonbp - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to EddInaBox: You mean the "experts" who have consistently run down our education system in the last 40 years? Funny how it's the "lay" people who can see what's in front of their eyes while the so-called "experts" cannot or will not...
My father changed career in the late 60's to become a teacher and at that time (and for many years after, although I believe they do so now), the teacher training colleges did NOT teach teachers HOW TO TEACH! (A basic pre-requisite one would have thought). They taught "child psychology" and other such subjects, but NOT the basic concepts of how to physically teach. And it's these products of the education training system who are now the "experts"...
ads.ukclimbing.com
Irk the Purist - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:

Wikipedia seems to have a comprehensive article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_holiday

China - Summer holidays usually last from early July to end of August. The Chinese New Year is also a school holiday called winter holiday or winter break, which usually last 1 month."

Norway - Generally, the school year starts around the third week of August. Most regions have a week off at the beginning of October. Christmas holidays start some days before Christmas Eve and end in the first week of January. There is one week of winter vacation in late February (weeks 8 or 9). Easter holiday is from Palm Sunday to Easter Monday or a day or two later, and Summer holidays begin some days before midsummer.

In Germany, summer holidays are mostly between July and late August, with regional differences. Some regions begin as soon as early to mid June, some end as late as the start of September. They last 6 weeks. Other holidays are around Easter (2 weeks), in autumn (1–2 weeks) and from mid- to end-December to the beginning of January (2 weeks). Depending on the state, further holidays can be around Pentecost or in winter between the first and the second half of the school year

toad - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red: It's all about the childcare, innit? corral the kids up and the proles can work longer *





*facetiousness aside, I think this is probably a real factor in Govey's thinking.
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:
> (In reply to Thread) Re the school holidays. Does anyone know how ours compare to other European countries/US/Asia?

The old saying in the US is that you become a teacher for three reasons, June, July and August.

> Whilst it's understandable that teachers are not going to be too receptive to a cutting of their holiday entitlement, it's worth considering that many parents find it very tough financially when their children are off school.
>
the teachers I know don't get the same holidays as the kids, most probably work half the school holidays preparing or catching up.
blurty - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:
> (In reply to puppythedog)
>
> For all the brouhaha and tohubohu in scottish education right now at least we don't have a tool like Gove in charge.
>
> I give thanks for this daily.

No way! Gove is Scottish you know, on Independence you will be getting him back as part of the deal
toad - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB: I think the old (now retired) teachers I meet did have a fairly cushy time of it, but I certainly wouldn't want to be a teacher now. I'm pretty certain I don't want to carry on in HE, and they're (supposed to be) adults
blurty - on 19 Apr 2013
the overbearing threat of offsted which creates a climate of fear and


Climate of fear' - what a joke. Teachers have no real idea of the pressures that a proper Performance Management approach brings yet. The professions has more than it's fair share of dead wood I think, which stops new blood rising through the ranks. A proper culture of measuring performance would be an excellent idea. The incompetent could then be re-trained/ sacked as appropriate

(I am married to a teacher, she will not be reading this post)
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB: My wife is a primary school teacher, my sister is a secondary school chemisrty teacher and her husband is a headmaster. From my experience of observing them and their issues..

My wife's lesson planning was a huge part of her "home time" plus "decorating" of classroom with educational materials also took up a lot of time
My sister does barely any planning so has far less work at "home time"
My brother in law hates OFSTED and the government with a passion and is extremely stressed most of the time, particularly when waiting for exam results.

Suggesting they have less holidays is going to be a tough sell, especially if we are very similar to our peers over the channel.

I do think a longer day that ends with more sport would be a good thing, although my immediate family would probably flame me for even considering it.
Irk the Purist - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to blurty:

I know a teacher who last year was 'observed' for performance management purposes every other week by their head and/or deputy and formally graded at the end of it. All their children are given a level weekly and the improvement of every single one is assessed over the year and if one fails to improve enough the teacher fails their performance management. So they are assessed for skills bi-monthly and have their performance managed through horrendously rigorous and inflexible examination of their results (children's progress). Ofsted also assessed their performance 3 times in 2 days. I'd love to know what 'proper performance management' is.

That is far more performance management than anyone else I know, in any job, anywhere. I get 2 reviews a year.


dissonance - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:

> For all the brouhaha and tohubohu in scottish education right now at least we don't have a tool like Gove in charge.

which is ironic considering half his policies seem based on his vague recollections of what he did and didnt like at school, in Scotland.


Steve John B - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús)
> [...]
>
> The old saying in the US is that you become a teacher for three reasons, June, July and August.

The old saying in the UK is: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

I would suggest adding "those who can't be arsed, work for the council", but that's a whole other thread... ;-)
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> The old saying in the UK is: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

As with the American saying it is a load of old bollocks.
>
> I would suggest adding "those who can't be arsed, work for the council", but that's a whole other thread... ;-)

Speak for yourself.
Route Adjuster on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to toad:

> (In reply to Eric the Red) It's all about the childcare, innit? corral the kids up and the proles can work longer *
>
>
> *facetiousness aside, I think this is probably a real factor in Govey's thinking.

I must admit - this was my first thought too. More work --> more tax revenue.
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordonbp:
> (In reply to EddInaBox)

> My father changed career in the late 60's to become a teacher and at that time (and for many years after, although I believe they do so now), the teacher training colleges did NOT teach teachers HOW TO TEACH! (A basic pre-requisite one would have thought). They taught "child psychology" and other such subjects, but NOT the basic concepts of how to physically teach. And it's these products of the education training system who are now the "experts"...

I think they expected teachers to be able to comprehend that understanding the basics of things like child psychology was teaching them how to teach, plus of course the hundreds of hours in a class room supervised by experienced teachers.
Quiddity - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to pec:

> toughening up of the curriculum so that children actually have to know some things aswell as express opinions about them.

Only if you believe being able to parrot a list of dates of British monarchs constitutes 'knowing' about history. Similarly, if if you believe that going from knowing your 10th times table to your 12th times table represents a 20% increase in understanding of maths.
MG - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordonbp: How does using percentages help? Percentiles, maybe.
MG - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to dissonance:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr)
>
> [...]
>
> which is ironic considering half his policies seem based on his vague recollections of what he did and didnt like at school, in Scotland.

That does seem to sum up his policies rather well!

Steve John B - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
> [...]
>
> Speak for yourself.

I was speaking on behalf of the multiple wastes of space laughingly called my co-workers. By no means all, but neither a tiny minority. Doubtless they're all great at your place.
Steve John B - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Route Adjuster:
> (In reply to toad)
>
> [...]
>
> I must admit - this was my first thought too. More work --> more tax revenue.

Isn't more tax revenue is a good thing? Money to spend on teachers, nurses etc. Or are you in favour of cuts to public spending?
wintertree - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Quiddity:

> if if you believe that going from knowing your 10th times table to your 12th times table represents a 20% increase in understanding of maths.

I find I use the 100% burnt into my brain by repetition twelve times table quite regularly when doing mental maths. I've never once needed to use my 10 times table. So surely it represents an infinite increase in my understanding? (Many / zero = infinity)...
Irk the Purist - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:

Quite right. Lets send children into the abandoned coal mines of the UK during their holidays to get that pesky coal we couldn't reach with grown ups. Teachers can supervise. That way teachers, children AND parents can all work and the tax revenues can go through the roof. Awesome.

ads.ukclimbing.com
John_Hat - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:
> (In reply to blurty)
>
> That is far more performance management than anyone else I know, in any job, anywhere. I get 2 reviews a year.

As a matter of interest, what happened if they failed their performance appraisal?
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> I was speaking on behalf of the multiple wastes of space laughingly called my co-workers. By no means all, but neither a tiny minority. Doubtless they're all great at your place.

Actually, they are not bad, with one or two exceptions. Most of the dross went in the 1st and 2nd wave of redundancies 2-3 years ago.
Kemics - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Oliiver:
> (In reply to puppythedog) Michael gove needs to tackle the issue with grade inflation. Grade A* is so common now that we need to either: make exams harder or bring in A**. People arnt getting cleverer, the exams are becoming easier. Take for example physics, the grade boundaries one year were 70% for an A* on the aqa syllabus that's ridiculous.

They are becoming much harder! I'm currently doing a chemistry a level in evening classes. To achieve an A star you need to get 100%. To get an A you need 80% or above.

If you look at the papers from 5 years ago they are drastically easier. Since Gove took over, the papers are significantly harder. The last 3 years especially are really a notch up.

I'd say a massive proportion of people whinging about how easy exams are havn't been near a school in 30 years...
John Roberts (JR) - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> The old saying in the UK is: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.
>

The UK has the best cohorts of new teachers coming into the profession ever currently (economic situation has a role in that, but the overall internal and external view of the profession is increasing) - that phrase is becoming, and should be, redundant.
Irk the Purist - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat:

I don't like to speak about things I know little about and they have never failed because they work like billyo and are an amazing teacher. However, I believe you need to pass performance management to move up the payscale and the teaching grades. I also believe that like every other profession that should you fail, you get given a personal improvement plan but are given much less time for personal development and less time to improve before you're booted out the door.
If you fail at Ofsted your school gets a notice to improve, gets turned into an academy and then things magically get better. Or something like that.


l21bjd - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Kemics:

> If you look at the papers from 5 years ago they are drastically easier. Since Gove took over, the papers are significantly harder. The last 3 years especially are really a notch up.
>

Are you suggesting a causal link between Gove taking over and exam level (esp. 3 years ago)?
John Roberts (JR) - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:

Here's some proper, none wikipedia based evidence:
http://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/toolkit/approaches/extended-school-time

It's very context and income dependent but one thing that can be shown and reproduced evidentially is that more deprived pupils' progress remains flat, or indeed falls, during longer holidays, more affluent pupils' progress continues to rise. What is more important is the quality of what is done during the quantity of teaching time - the quality of the teacher and teaching has by far the greatest impact.
Irk the Purist - on 19 Apr 2013
I think it says a lot that the thread has turned into teachers being defended again. There is a complete lack of respect for teaching and education in this country that is far more important than the length of a summer holiday.

If more parents would take some responsibility for looking after and educating their own children, we would be far better off.
Fredt on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> The old saying in the UK is: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.
>

And (as in my case), "...and those who can't teach, teach teachers"

Ramblin dave - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:

> If more parents would take some responsibility for looking after and educating their own children, we would be far better off.

Fundamentally agree, but unfortunately this won't start happening just because people on the internet / in the papers / in the goverment wave their arms and fume about it.
John Roberts (JR) - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:

That's not wholly true, latest Ipsos Mori veracity poll showed teachers are the second most trusted professionals behind doctors: http://edapt.co/172vPuy
Kemics - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to l21bjd:

Yes. That in the last 3 years, papers have got significantly harder.
Edradour - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to Oliiver)
> [...]
>
> They are becoming much harder!

I disagree, I have been doing some Chemistry and Physics tutoring recently (at GCSE level) and the syllabus is considerably narrower, and easier, than when I did my GCSEs (1998).

Some of the kids I have been tutoring have been doing IGCSEs because their schools consider them more worthwhile (they are a level up apparently) and the syllabus for those is virtually identical to the old GCSE.

Similarly, the increase in numbers of A and A* grades year on year is indicative of earier exams. It was quite unusual when I was at school to get 3 A grade A-levels. Now, amongst my brother's friends who are doing A-levels this year, vast numbers of people are predicted 3 or 4 A* grades.
John_Hat - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:

...at the risk of getting flamed here...

One comment I've heard a few times on here from teachers (including this thread) is that they were marking kids work at 8pm (or 10pm, or whatever) and not getting paid for it as if:

a) they were on an hourly wage as opposed to being professional and being paid for the job.
b) as if working at 8pm was somehow incredibly unusual in some way.
999thAndy on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to MG:
> (In reply to Gordonbp) How does using percentages help? Percentiles, maybe.

Perfect solution. Have a gold star.
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to l21bjd:
> (In reply to Kemics)
>
> [...]
>
> Are you suggesting a causal link between Gove taking over and exam level (esp. 3 years ago)?

I don't think it is any secret that Gove has put pressure on the exam boards to make them harder.
Steve John B - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
> [...]
>
> Actually, they are not bad, with one or two exceptions. Most of the dross went in the 1st and 2nd wave of redundancies 2-3 years ago.

Well get your senior managers over here then! The only people we've lost (in my department) are those with lengthy service and consequently decent pensions. The dross seems to have stayed. There are indeed some good 'uns and a lot of ok ones though.
Steve John B - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
>
> Quite right. Lets send children into the abandoned coal mines of the UK during their holidays to get that pesky coal we couldn't reach with grown ups. Teachers can supervise. That way teachers, children AND parents can all work and the tax revenues can go through the roof. Awesome.

Up to your usual high standards there. Well argued.
Carolyn - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Eric the Red:

> Quite right. Lets send children into the abandoned coal mines of the UK during their holidays to get that pesky coal we couldn't reach with grown ups. Teachers can supervise. That way teachers, children AND parents can all work and the tax revenues can go through the roof. Awesome.

There's a plan. It'd help tackle childhood obesity, too. Though might need to factor in the cost of Vitamin D supplements?
Steve John B - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Fredt:
> (In reply to Steve John B)
> [...]
>
> And (as in my case), "...and those who can't teach, teach teachers"

And those who can't teach teachers, teach teacher teachers. And so on...
ads.ukclimbing.com
dissonance - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:

> And those who can't teach teachers, teach teacher teachers. And so on...

and those who fail at everything and have a grudge against the teaching profession for doing so become ofsted inpectors.
dissonance - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

> I don't think it is any secret that Gove has put pressure on the exam boards to make them harder.

i think the relevant bit was "esp. 3 years ago".
Kemics - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to dissonance:

Okay well 2 and half ;)
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to dissonance:

2 years 11 months!
The New NickB - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> Well get your senior managers over here then! The only people we've lost (in my department) are those with lengthy service and consequently decent pensions. The dross seems to have stayed. There are indeed some good 'uns and a lot of ok ones though.

That includes some of the worst of the senior managers, lost some very good folk as well.
waterbaby - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to toad:
> (In reply to Eric the Red) It's all about the childcare, innit? corral the kids up and the proles can work longer *
>
>
>
>
>
> *facetiousness aside, I think this is probably a real factor in Govey's thinking.

It's not joined up thinking though because although it helps others, it will disadvantage teacher with children. Seems to me there has been a bit of an issue getting people to want to go into teaching. I know many, many people, especially women who have gone into teaching because it fits in better with having a family. So won't we just end up with teaching becoming even less attractive?
Ramblin dave - on 19 Apr 2013
Dominion - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to pec:

> (In reply to puppythedog) I think you might find a lot a teachers agree with some of his reforms,]

except the ones where he agrees with Rupert Murdoch and wants to get rid of 50% of teachers, as they can be replaced by computer learning systems supplied by companies that Rupert Murdoch has a stake in (and is likely to have editorial input in)

Gove is in Murdoch's pocket, Murdoch has designs on getting into educating children because that means he can influence them or sell advertising to them.

toad - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave: l
toad - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to toad: o
toad - on 19 Apr 2013
In reply to toad: l
l21bjd - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to dissonance)
>
> 2 years 11 months!

But exams do not get designed and written on such a short timescale that the level of exam three years ago could be linked to Gove. Was there a concomitant step downwards in marks/grades? I have not looked closely, but I was not aware of one, in 'A' level sciences anyway, but I could be wrong. (Ok, there was the issue with one particular GCSE English(?) module that made it into the press).

I would (genuinely!) be interested in being pointed to evidence to support the assertion that exams have systematically got harder on this timescale.

Jon.
elsewhere on 20 Apr 2013
Edradour - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to Eric the Red)
>
> ...at the risk of getting flamed here...
>
> One comment I've heard a few times on here from teachers (including this thread) is that they were marking kids work at 8pm (or 10pm, or whatever) and not getting paid for it as if:
>
> a) they were on an hourly wage as opposed to being professional and being paid for the job.
> b) as if working at 8pm was somehow incredibly unusual in some way.

Agree wholeheartedly. You forget:

c) the holiday allowance, even considering they don't 'get the same holidays as the pupils' is much more generous compared to many other professions.
The New NickB - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Edradour:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> Agree wholeheartedly. You forget:
>
> c) the holiday allowance, even considering they don't 'get the same holidays as the pupils' is much more generous compared to many other professions.

But rigidly inflexible. I am not a teacher, I wouldn't particularly want to be.
Father Noel Furlong on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> The old saying in the UK is: Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.
>
> I would suggest adding "those who can't be arsed, work for the council", but that's a whole other thread... ;-)

God. What does that say about me.....i used to be a teacher and now work for the council!!!!

Hate the job by the way....i'd gladly give up and do something else....
icnoble on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Edradour:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> Agree wholeheartedly. You forget:
>
> c) the holiday allowance, even considering they don't 'get the same holidays as the pupils' is much more generous compared to many other professions.


Regarding the teachers holiday allowance, I am fed up with teachers that I know saying the holidays are needed to recharge their batteries. My wife is a clinician in the health service. She often works 10-12 hours in a day and brings work home. Like teachers the job is very stressful, a six week summer holiday for her would be fantastic for a "battery recharge". Unfortunately she only gets 5 weeks holiday in a year.
Father Noel Furlong on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to icnoble:

How much does she get paid?
lfenbo - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Gordonbp:
> (In reply to earlsdonwhu) Sorry I have to debunk that.
> When I was working I usually left home at 7.00 am and got home often not until 8.00 pm and quite often 9.00 or 10.00 pm - with FOUR WEEKS HOLIDAY....

and your point is ???
Lord of Starkness - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to puppythedog:

Cartoon in todays Torygraph is quite apt. It shows Gove taking delight at repeatedly spanking a teacher on the bare backside, and saying 'it's for your own good'.

PS I'm by no means a Tory supporter -- you just get a lot of decent newspaper on a Saturday -- and I can generally do the cryptic crossword.
ads.ukclimbing.com
John_Hat - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
> (In reply to icnoble)
>
> How much does she get paid?

Ah, this would be the "but...but...but teachers are all paupers and paid nothing whilst all you folk earn millions" rubbish peddled out on a regular basis...

This was done to death on another thread where the whole idea of teachers being paid badly was thoroughly and comprehensively obliterated.

It included links to pay scales and everything.

The basic result of that was that teachers are actually paid very, very well compared with most. Certainly compared with most of the normal population. Compared with professions like accountancy and law teachers pay is comparable at lower grades (actually teachers get paid more), except that teachers have a ceiling they hit at around 60-80k where it is essentially impossible to get any higher unless you are one of the chosen few, which doesn't apply for things like accountancy and law.

There were lots of teachers on the thread wittering on about how in private sector everyone gets paid approximately a million quid (witness the top CEO's of business, natch) and an awful lot of others saying that

a) they don't
b) holidays
c) long hours apply in both cases
d) index-linked pension *cough*
e) striking

The thread petered out after I posted direct links to half a dozen teachers pay scales, several people posted that they had no idea teachers earned that much, and I think the teachers shut up out of embarrassment.

Sorry, you were saying?
Father Noel Furlong on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat:

Christ that was a long non-answer.


I asked how much does she gets paid. The answer shouldn't take long to type.
John_Hat - on 20 Apr 2013
John_Hat - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Just thought I'd bat your oncoming point about how teachers get badly paid into the long grass before you started and save a lot of time.

Of course, if you were not going to make that point, then I have merely placed a lot of information on the thread for others to read...


:-)
Father Noel Furlong on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat:

You're psychic? You have no idea what my incoming point was.....the fact the you don't know what your wife earns is what has now wet my appetite.

You made the bleeding heart point about your poor wife and how hard she works - i asked how much she gets paid.

Put up or shut up.
Father Noel Furlong on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat:

Sorry didn't mean to be quite so confrontational with my last post......i know plenty of people who work hard but they also get paid shit loads more than teachers.
John_Hat - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

ermmm.

I do not know what Icnoble's wife gets paid, nor have any wish to. You are attacking the wrong person.

:-)

No need to worry about being confrontational, I was being fairly confrontational myself!
Father Noel Furlong on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to Father Noel Furlong)
>
> ermmm.
>
> I do not know what Icnoble's wife gets paid, nor have any wish to. You are attacking the wrong person.

Just not good enough....get round there and find out. I've probably had enough wine already.....

John_Hat - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Father Noel Furlong:
> (In reply to John_Hat)
> [...]
>
> I've probably had enough wine already.....

....but I may be catching up :-)
Mark Morris - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat: The pay scale does allow a teacher to earn what most people would consider a good salary. But the scales do not reflect what the average teacher earns and the pension the average teacher gets.

The most your normal classroom teacher (outside of the London fringes) is approx £38k. This after passing a pay review every year for 6 years, passing the threshold at the end of the 6th year requires applying for it (53% didn't even apply for it last year through management bullying!)This allows you to pass through to the upper pay spine and then having 2 successful performance reviews to progress - over 5 years, to ups3.

There are management allowances for taking on TLRs which would attract higher salaries and there is then the leadership spine, which has increments dependent on performance on a scale determined by the size of the school (or the manipulation of the governing body to allow a salary outside of the agreed pay scales).

Once on the management pay scales, all the controls on the number of days worked, the directed time of 1265 hours, the absolute "no" to weekend working goes.

There will be many people on this spine who have never worked outside the hours that "normal" teachers work. That, I feel, is unfair.

If you take the "king's shilling" then you should face the obligations that the contract involves.

So, whilst those "headline figures" for a teacher might seem great, they ignore the real truth.

They change from RPI to CPI or which ever way it was on teachers pensions alone has raised 2.3 billion for the chancellor last year.

The average teachers pension is about 10k.

The people that suffer are the disabled and those from BME backgrounds who never progress far up the pay scales in comparison to others, women, who end up taking career breaks due to pregnancy and bringing up children.

The truth is out there if only you actually looked beyond raw pay scales.

Of course, if it's that good, why aren't you doing it? As a climber I'm sure you'd like the holidays?

Mark

John_Hat - on 20 Apr 2013
In reply to Mark Morris:

1) Do you realise that to most of the working folk of the country 38k is an *insane* amount of money that most people are unlikely to achieve after 30 years of working, let alone six or eleven (your text is unclear)?

2) Why am I not doing it?

Well, mainly because I would regard being in charge of 30-odd kids as hell on earth. I have not got the kind of personality (short temper, no patience) which is suited to that environment.

------------

My problem is this. Whenever I start talking to teachers on here, they come out with stuff typed in the kind of tone (you know what I mean) of incredulity, that most people would regard as *utterly normal*.

e.g.

> "Once on the management pay scales, all the controls on the number of days worked, the directed time of 1265 hours, the absolute "no" to weekend working goes"

No sh*t sherlock. Do you not realise that in most professional job this is the norm?.

Equally various comments about working in the evening. Don't you realise that this is the norm in many jobs?

Also you say that the pension is about 10k a year, as if that's cr@p. Do you realise that this is vastly, amazingly greater than pretty much everyone else?

Oh, and it's linked to CPI rather than RPI - don't you get the fact that almost no-one else has index-linked pensions AT ALL?

And then, when people point this out, there's the "oh, but we get paid cr@p". No teachers don't, they get paid well - more than most.

Frankly, teachers are repeatedly proving themselves to be vastly, vastly out of touch with reality. It's like they couldn't poke real, actual working conditions of normal folk with a long stick.

Oh yes, and then they go on strike. For most people this would be instant dismissal. And what do they go on strike for? More pay, and because the index-linking is the wrong sort.

-------------------

Don't get me wrong, I think that teaching is a very important job. I think its a hard job, I think its something I wouldn't want to do. I think that having politics getting in the way of you doing your job must drive people nuts.

If a teacher wants to demonstrate about the government of the day messing with the curriculum for political ends and changing their mind every 3 months, I'll sign the petition, I'll even go on the march. If teachers want to demonstrate about the way they are insufficiently protected against malicious sexual abuse claims from scrotes, I'll be waving a placard with the best of them.

Teachers protest about the wrong things, and in the wrong way. There's plenty of things for them to complain about, but remuneration is not one of them. In fact if I was a teacher I'd be keeping very, very quiet about my remuneration and hope no-one noticed...
icnoble on 21 Apr 2013
In reply to John_Hat: Just got home from work, long day in the private sector. I agree with everything you say regarding teachers pay. I am not going to reveal my wife's pay, but if the most a normal teacher gets paid after 6 years pay reviews (according to Mark Morris's post)is £38K then that's very good, slightly more than my wife's salary. I know for a fact that the starting salary for a therapist in the NHS is the same as that of a teacher. So that sorts out the salary issue.

Lets look at "on going training and professional development". Therapists in the NHS for a very long time have had to prove that they are "up to speed" on new developments which may help them in their work. This is something that the government has only relatively recently introduced to doctors. Therapists have had this hurdle to overcome for many years. I suppose we are talking about "fit to practice". Doctors were up in arms when this was introduced, and teachers are not happy about the prospect either. For my wife to progress in her job and be at the "cutting edge" has cost us financially, as we have personally funded various courses over the years. This extra knowledge has benefited many patients under her care.

Like the majority of teachers my wife is a dedicated public servant, paid by the tax payer and wanting to do her best for her patients, in a very stressful job, with long hours many of which are unpaid and lost in the system. She will retire with a good pension, certainly better than the bulk of private sector workers. (but that's another story).

Being able to teach well, in my view, is to a very great extent a skill that comes naturally to the individual. I would be a terrible teacher, and no amount of training would make me a better one. I am sure many teachers in this country have a terrible time, having to deal with the stresses that the job brings. BUT THIS IS THE CASE FOR MANY OTHER PROFESSIONS, both in the public and private sector. Teachers get paid well with good benefits and long holidays.
Jim C - on 21 Apr 2013
In reply to Steve John B:
> (In reply to Fredt)
> [...]
>
> And those who can't teach teachers, teach teacher teachers. And so on...

Where do Managers come I this? I thought it was those that can't, mange.

The other similar saying that comes to mind is-
'The longer you are away from the tools, the faster you get'

This seem to be a problem with workers who have moved up into supervision, who apparently
, seem to come to believe that when they were doing the job, they could do it faster than those the are supervising.


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