/ reverso 4 - lowering in guide mode burring issue

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thomb - on 22 Apr 2013
Yesterday I noticed some sharp burred metal around the 'guide-mode release' notch on my Reverso 4. I believe this to be from inserting the nose of a karabiner into the notch to release the locked ropes. The burring is situated so that when using the plate in usual mode, the dead end of the rope runs just over the burring.

So, the burring - file it down? Has anyone else had this happen?

Also, have I got something wrong here? I have to admit I found it very awkward to pull up the plate, and didn't feel I had great control over the speed of lowering.

Thanks
thomb
needvert on 22 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:

Photo!
Jonny2vests - on 22 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:

> Also, have I got something wrong here? I have to admit I found it very awkward to pull up the plate, and didn't feel I had great control over the speed of lowering.

Sounds like you've done nowt wrong. They're not great for lowering, but it ought to be a fairly rare thing to want to do. You're not lowering top ropers are you?
ice.solo - on 22 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:

ive not found it personally. maybe the krab youre using for the lowering?

file it for sure. gently.
thomb - on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Good to know it's not just me that finds it awkward.

No, not a regular thing, I was lowering my second as she dropped some gear. It's one of the few times I've had to release a locked rope in guide mode.
thomb - on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to needvert:

will try and upload a photo over lunch today - it's nothing spectacular to look at, so don't get too excited!
gingerking - on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:
I've got some mega burring on the base of a reverso 3 - simply from everyday use. I've filed it down a couple of times (!), but seems to be a recurring problem due to the softness of the metal. I understood that Petzl had sorted the soft metal for the 4?
flaneur - on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to gingerking:

I contacted Petzl UK directly and they told me the alloy used in the 4 was the same as in the 3.

The rapid sharpening was well known with the 3 and cannot be described as normal wear-and-tear despite protestations from Petzl apologists. Perhaps the metal needs to be this soft to enable casting a complex shape but DMM (and others) manage to produce belay devices that don't wear out in half a season.

My 3 is worn close to past the point of self-repair; I'll be buying a replacement from another manufacturer unless I'm presented with convincing evidence that the 4 (or 5?) is notably more durable. It's not as if we are short of belay devices to choose from.
thomb - on 23 Apr 2013
Jonny2vests - on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to gingerking)
>
> The rapid sharpening was well known with the 3 and cannot be described as normal wear-and-tear despite protestations from Petzl apologists. Perhaps the metal needs to be this soft to enable casting a complex shape but DMM (and others) manage to produce belay devices that don't wear out in half a season.

Yes, its an issue, I've just replaced my old 3 because it had a really sharp edge where the rope runs over the bottom section when in guide mode. Having said that, I like it better than similar plates, it just runs smoother, which is why I've just bought a 4.
jon on 23 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:

> Also, have I got something wrong here? (...) and didn't feel I had great control over the speed of lowering.

Just as a general comment, with the original Magic Plates it was just about impossible to give slack/lower without a rigging up a sling to release the brake krab using the belayer's weight, and even then it would drop the second rather than 'lower' them. This feature (inserting the krab into the notch) is more to enable you to give slack to a second or of course to lower them in an emergency when in guide mode rather than a lowering device to used all the time. Of course this doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used in this way, but maybe goes some way towards explaining why the burring is occurring.
Slarti B on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to flaneur:
> (In reply to gingerking)
>
> The rapid sharpening was well known with the 3 and cannot be described as normal wear-and-tear despite protestations from Petzl apologists. Perhaps the metal needs to be this soft to enable casting a complex shape but DMM (and others) manage to produce belay devices that don't wear out in half a season.
>
Interestingly, I think the Petzl Reverso is actually manufactured by DMM!

I have had a Reverso 3 for couple of years and found the grooves wearing faster than my old DMM bug but still not too bad.
AlH - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb: Plus 1 Jon's post. If you think you may need to lower don't set it up in guide mode. If you have to lower consider backing it up with a releasable Italian hitch before starting to lower.
As an aside, if all you need is a little slack, using a krab with a non round profile to its back bar as the braking/free hanging krab often enables you to release small amounts of rope by 'cranking' the krab back and forwards.
ianstevens - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to AlH: Why not just tie a little loop of 4/5mm cord through it and eliminate whacking a carabiner in what is clearly a delicate hole? That's what I've done (albeit with a BD guide plate) and it is just as easy to release, and doesn't get in the way. If you need some extra leverage, clip a carabiner through the cord and voila, easy.
flaneur - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to Slarti B:
> (In reply to flaneur)
> [...]
> Interestingly, I think the Petzl Reverso is actually manufactured by DMM!

Ha! That would be ironic.

DMM are OEM for a lot of other climbing brand's metalwork. Take a look at a Mammut carabiner - notice any family resemblance?
In reply to ianstevens: That was what you had to do with the original reversos (or was it the first BD guide versions?) But anyway, I think the guides/instructors (Jon/AIH) here have hit the nail on the head, don't use guide mode if you think you might have to lower. If you have a high belay point, use the the reverso on your harness and run the ropes up through a crab on the high point. Makes lowering very comfy and easy.

Guide mode is great when you are trying to eat/take photos/but a belay jkt on whilst your mate seconds the pitch but I wouldn't do it with beginners who might need lowering off.
In reply to flaneur:

> Ha! That would be ironic.

Why? Lots of companies make products that are branded for other companies. Many harnesses seem to be made by Singing Rock in Czech, and then badged for various different companies.
ianstevens - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to TobyA: Yeah, I do get that! If I'm out with beginners (or in fact anyone I think I may have to lower) I avoid using guide mode. When I first got a guide plate I spent a while "messing about" (for want of a better term) and found that when lowering someone, this setup is by far and away the easiest. I've never had to do it in anger, and obviously would try to avoid any situation which this occurs, just sharing a) what I've found works well and b) a possible solution to a problem which could still arise if you avoid frequent lowering.
Jonny2vests - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to Slarti B:
> (In reply to flaneur)
> [...]
> Interestingly, I think the Petzl Reverso is actually manufactured by DMM!
>
> I have had a Reverso 3 for couple of years and found the grooves wearing faster than my old DMM bug but still not too bad.

Apologies for the continued hijack.

Are you talking about the toothed grooves? I think those wearing down isn't really a biggy. The sharpening issue I think flaneur is talking about is from abseiling where the loaded rope coming out of the top of the device removes metal. Gradually, you end up with a sharp edge where the old unscathed metal ends and your worn bit starts. But is this sharp edge ever likely to be a problem? I imagine if you abseiled with the reverso so you're brake rope was running over it, it would.

Here's a photo, I've highlighted the sharp bit:

http://tinyurl.com/cr9h932
gd303uk - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests: sorry to continue with the slight highkack,
I am sure you have seen this report from black biamond, granted its about krabs becoming worn by rope passing through them, but the effect on rope could be the same.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/knowledge/qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carab...
ads.ukclimbing.com
colin8ll on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:

> Also, have I got something wrong here? I have to admit I found it very awkward to pull up the plate, and didn't feel I had great control over the speed of lowering.

Did you redirect the rope up through a higher crab when lowering? Like this http://www.mountainproject.com/images/89/13/106718913_medium_babd4b.jpg

I find this helps a lot
Jonny2vests - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to gd303uk:

Yeah seen that one.
Slarti B on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> Are you talking about the toothed grooves? I think those wearing down isn't really a biggy. The sharpening issue I think flaneur is talking about is from abseiling where the loaded rope coming out of the top of the device removes metal. Gradually, you end up with a sharp edge where the old unscathed metal ends and your worn bit starts. But is this sharp edge ever likely to be a problem? I imagine if you abseiled with the reverso so you're brake rope was running over it, it would.
>
I was talking about wear on the toothed grooves, which you tend to notice when belaying. Following your post I checked and my Reverso 3 looks very similar to yours with the sharp edge you highlight; hadn't really spotted that before. When abseiling I have the dead rope over the grooves so not an issue I think but something to watch out for.

Thoms6974 - on 24 Apr 2013
In reply to thomb:

Rather than using a carabiner, I've found it easier on the odd occasion I've had to lower to use my nut key - the longer length both gives a better force multiplier and finer angular control. Tempted to use the axes in winter....
ledifer on 25 Apr 2013
In reply to Thoms6974:
> (In reply to thomb) and ianstevens
>
> Rather than using a carabiner, I've found it easier on the odd occasion I've had to lower to use my nut key.

Both really good ideas, I'll have to try it out.



thomb - on 25 Apr 2013
In reply to colin8ll:

Good shout that, reckon it'll smooth the lowering process a bit. Thanks.

Mainly I'll try and avoid having to lower in guide mode at all I think.

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