In reply to David Martin:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> You don't need to extol the virtues of outdoor routes - my profile photos should make it clear I enjoy them.
No, you misunderstand. I'm extolling the virtues of
single pitch climbing, because you said that it was more similar to climbing indoors than multi-pitch climbing:
> If we're going to get snobby about indoor climbing then bouldering and single -pitch climbs are clearly as far from "the real thing" as pulling on plastic is.
> I'm just failing to see why you define climbing by the best routes you can find...
No no, they're examples to show you that you single pitch climbing in the UK
can be absolutely amazing, since you appear to have written it off as rubbish. Crappy quarries are exactly that, crappy (but still rock climbing).
> I understand Ratho has real rock for at least some of its routes, yet is under a roof, indoors, in a climbing centre. Is that climbing or not climbing?
Well I guess it is rock climbing, but with most of the appeal removed and replaced with increased convenience. I haven't been so I don't know whether I'd find it more similar to climbing in a quarry or a normal wall, but it's obviously a cross between the two!
> Likewise, my local park has an artificially placed lump in it for bouldering (possibly real rock, maybe not, I'm not sure) - would performing some moves on that be climbing or not? What about the climbing champs indoor, maneouvering up some steadily steeper concoction, performing some crazy moves?
Indoor climbing, or climbing on an artificial boulder is not rock climbing. I don't know how that is confusing.
> You are right though, I don't particularly rate much of the trad climbing people rave about. Birchen Edge?
A decent beginners crag, but not good for low E grades. Good place to potter around soloing, or with a pad. Midshipman is a good route worth taking a rope for though. Peaches is meant to be good too.
A day out at Froggat? The joys of Downhill Racer?
Froggat is a good crag, especially of course if you like unprotected slabs. But it sounds like you don't like grit? I go hot and cold on it personally, on the right day those unprotected routes can be incredibly intense and amazing experiences. After a summer of climbing on big crags I did Elegy and it brought home what grit is all about: intensity. I haven't done Downhill Racer, but I've done Great Slab and quite a few other dangerous low-E grade classics at Froggat, and they can be a wonderful buzz. Not everyone's cup of tea of course, I don't know if you've tried routes in that style (it has to be at your limit to get the experience btw) or whether you're just saying they don't appeal from the look of them? The pub near the crag, The Grouse is excellent too, try the steak pie next time.
> I don't get it or see the attraction at all. DOWH, multi-pitch in Costa Blanca, Sardinia or France? Yep, I get that. The route goes somewhere, there is some technical rope work involved, you can't top-rope the whole thing, or necessarily reach the summit any other way and most non-climbers would look at it as unclimbable at first glance. But many of the "classic" trad routes in the UK I wouldn't bother getting out of bed for.
Everyone gets something different out of climbing. I think your view of 'classic UK trad routes' seems a bit distorted towards grit, which is quite a 'marmite' style much closer to bouldering than multi-pitch climbing, and if covering spectacular terrain is what does it for you, you probably won't like it. Which is neither here nor there.
Though I would never accuse someone doing them of "not really climbing".
But presumably you would accuse them of "not multi-pitch climbing" the same way I would accuse an indoor climber of "not rock climbing"?