/ NEWS: The Works Vandalised - Bolts Chopped, Quickdraws Taken

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ruari88 - on 26 Apr 2013
Just to let people know, the works crag by hodge close has been vandalised. The industrial sector has had chains removed and several bolts chopped or broken. The paddy cave has had most of the biners stolen.
Pretty depressing stuff.

UKC Staff Edit: This is now on the UKC News page with photos.

More Info: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68018
The Grist - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: well out of order. A lot of climbers enjoy the works to keep fit out of ice season. It sounds like some fanatic who does not approve of dry tooling has taken some effort to do this. Or am I jumping to conclusions? You would think people would have better things to do other than ruining other people's enjoyment of an aspect of the sport.
maybe_si - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to The Grist: the whole lot has been ruined, thousands of pounds worth of kit has been destroyed/stolen if anyone knows anything then please tell us!
In reply to The Grist:
> It sounds like some fanatic who does not approve of dry tooling has taken some effort to do this. Or am I jumping to conclusions?

Is it the sort of damage that would be very hard for a non climber to do?
Petarghh - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to TobyA: Yes...

Specific bolts hacked off to make routes impossible to climb safely,

Lower offs chopped

Majority of in situ draws stolen

Would have needed a good knowledge of rope work to get up the routes to get the gear, a ladder could have been used too in some situations.

Although, no obvious damage to the routes which i find odd... just the bolts and draws.
joan cooper - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: There are a lot of thieves get good money for metal.
Jamie B - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to joan cooper:

> There are a lot of thieves get good money for metal.

Surely there are easier ways to get a lot more metal than this. And the chopping of the bolts suggests an ethical(ahem) motivation rather than just looking to acquire some kit. As an ethical statement this sits somewhere between misguided and moronic - my sincere sympathies for those who put a lot of work into developing a greatly-appreciated venue.

Petarghh - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to joan cooper:
> (In reply to ruari88) There are a lot of thieves get good money for metal.

I dont think its just metal theft, the damage has been targeted specifically at making as much of the crag unclimbable as possible, I think only 2 or 3 lines remain complete.
3 Names - on 26 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

Who owns the works?
maybe_si - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

It is blatantly a competent climber with some sort of vendetta against this amazing DT venue... this person also happens to be a thief! chopping bolts is one thing, stealing hundreds/thousands of pounds worth of kit is something entirely different!

Anyone who has been to the crag will understand, this is not a random act of vandalism/theft, this is a statement against a recognised and approved DT venue, this is utterly unacceptable and whoever is responsible needs to be named and shamed.

It has been widely recognised that this is an approved venue, the BMC along with various equipment manufacturers have helped to create this place along with countless man hours put in by a lot of different people, myself included!

Venues such as this have been massively beneficial for training for hard winter ascents as will as the recent Ice World Cup in which GB has represented.

I really hope that the culprit can be found/educated and we can start to rebuild a fantastic venue

Simon
Baron Weasel - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to maybe_si: Dry tooling is not my thing, but I am sorry to hear it. I was at Hodge Close last night - but didn't see any thing.

Insert 4 letter expletive <HERE>

Hope you catch the culprits!

BW

3leggeddog on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

This is very sad.

I hope the gear can be replaced swiftly, maybe Cumbria bolt fund could provide some assistance?

I believe there was to be some sort of coaching event there this weekend, the action appears timed to make maximum impact.

If the perpetrator is watching this thread, they will be, the theft was planned to produce a reaction . Try refocusing your efforts and emotions on something important, you could make a real difference contributing to uncut, occupy, 38 degrees or similar (or indeed their rightwing equivalents, should that be to your taste). Your impact there would be long lasting and valued by a much larger section of society. You have time and energy to spare, use it constructively.
stuart58 - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Baron Weasel: its not as if the place is a beauty spot or sussies. I though what a great thing to do to make use of what essentially is a shot heap. The person or persons to do this have stolen the gear and are sick in my mind. Wasn't there to be some training or event there in a couple of weeks. Its not ripping down gear against bolting its pure theft.
Sorry to those who use it and have put in hours of hard work. Hope you catch them and we should hang them by there tools.
zola - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: it's a shame there's no cctv on the farm house for some vehicle movements as I assume there would have been transport used. I myself have used the venue when routes haven't been in nick and hope it can get back soon to its former glory. And to the idiot or idiots involved what harm was been done by people enjoying the freedom we know as climbing whatever form it takes.
In reply to ALL: Has anyone been there and seen this first hand? Does anyone have a photo that we could use on UKC?

I'd love to talk to someone who has been there - and get the word out ASAP on this via the UKC news page.

I'm on jack( at )ukclimbing.com

Cheers - Jack
simondgee - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:
Dry tooling not my bag but a big loss and upsetting for the great guys who put a mammoth effort in there.
Landowners
The boundaries around there are with 3 landowners (i have not checked which one applies)
-National Trust
-Burlington Slate
-a party who have their land managed by Smith Gore (land agents)
All of whom tolerate a low profile activities.

I have oft wondered the legality/rights of placing bolts and developments like The Works, White Goods or crags on private land ...and the risks of investing in such ... no justification for vandalism but an inherent risk.
Peter Holder - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to simondgee:

Jack, Pictures have been sent, Please feel free to use as you wish.

I was climbing at the works on Wednesday (left about 4pm and all was okay). I then returned on Friday at around 11am to discover the maddness. This means it definitely happened between these times.

If you would like anymore info, feel free to get in touch.

Peter Holder
In reply to james.peter: Thanks Peter - email sent.

Jack
tom290483 - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to maybe_si:

Well said Si.

The draws and maillons that Petzl/Lyon donated to us for this venue would have cost about £500 alone.

Bolts, hangers, crabs and slings bought with our own hard earned money.

Not to mention all Gregs grivel kit on his project that has gone.

F*CKERS.
maybe_si - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to tom290483:

Don't forget all the kit that DMM donated originally!
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martinph78 on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to joan cooper: Not for steel, certainly not in small quantities. Copper, aluminium, brass etc yes, but steel isn't worth the bother.
fmck - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Dry tooling. shocking!

Hope they catch those vandal scum : )
Bruce Hooker - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Stainless steel even is not worth enough to justify doing this, a few dozen kilos even of copper (about £3 a kilo last time I sold some) would hardly be worth it even and stainless is worth a lot less, so it is definitely an anti-bolting statement.

Having said that those who put the bolts in were making a statement too, both acts seem equivalent to me. Live by the sword, die by the sword :-)
awallace on 27 Apr 2013
I've not used it myself either but I'm sure the culprits will be caught. They are obviously anti DT climbers and the climbing world is pretty damned small. Its bound to leak out - keep your ear to the ground.
Bob_the_Builder - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Does anyone know the legal angle on this? Assuming the perpetrator was caught (which unfortunately seems unlikely) could they actually be punished for theft? Or does the fact that the gear was left at the crag mean that they weren't technically stealing?
UrbanRocker on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: It's stealing. The stuff still had an owner no matter where it was left.
Bob_the_Builder - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to UrbanRocker:

Yeah I thought about it a bit more after I posted. If I leave my car on the street it doesn't mean people can just take it. I guess the next question is how do we go about finding them/proving they did it, and then persuade the police to care!
Wiley Coyote - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to ruari88)
>
those who put the bolts in were making a statement too, both acts seem equivalent to me. Live by the sword, die by the sword :-)

The Voice of Reason strikes again! I'm not into dry tooling and have no wish to be but I applaud the fact that those who are had taken their activity to a bit of rock no one else wanted and where it was doing no harm at all to anyone and, more importantly, no harm to existing rock routes. I hope it is restored to use ASAP.

Clevelandclimber - on 27 Apr 2013
Really sorry to hear this, the Works is a great venue and has inspired and helped me train to a new level (albeit lowly) last year. I hope you can find the money and enthusiasm to restore things.
Lew13 - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Bastards have ruined a great training venue used by many. Christ, there must be some grumpy gits living in the Lakes....
Kev Shields - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: I've been to the Works and it was a perfect DT venue, this is bang out of order. Real scunner for everyone who developed the routes and to put it simply the folk who did this are utter c***s...........
Lord_ash2000 - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: I haven’t dry tooled outdoors but this isn't about climbing its just pure vandalism. I know a few people who have used that cave and it seems a great place that has been well developed by some people to practice their sport in. It’s rock but its no use to climbers, trad sport or otherwise. This is a completely independent sporting facility that has been trashed by some fairly committed idiot.

It wouldn’t be any different to someone smashing up a skate park or something, not that they’ll find them or do anything but it should be reported to the police.
Baron Weasel - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
> It’s rock but its no use to climbers, trad sport or otherwise.

Would it be any good as a (clean) aid venue?

BW
r0x0r.wolfo - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: Bleh, not cool stuff. Like others have said, not into dry tooling but we can't have our own way all the time. The crag isn't hurting me, and if its an approved dry tooling crag then it can't have been very good for any other style of climbing.
waiting for snow - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Bob_the_Builder:

This was a criminal offence and amounts to both Theft contrary to sections 1-6 of the Theft Act 1978 plus Criminal Damage (for the bolts/ equipment which were damaged but left in situ). Has one of the interested parties informed Cumbria Constabulary yet?

If someone did this on an ethical basis, they obviously didn't realise that this will only push drytoolers onto the hills! Roll on the threads reporting people with Nomics getting seen heading up Langdale?

I've not used the facility yet. From what I've heard I can see no-one else wanting to head to that little corner of the Lakes, so it seams an ideal place to help both drytooling (subsequent hard mixed climbing) and therefore facilitating conservation by keeping us off Trad routes? I hope the culprits get what's coming to them!
Bob Ashcroft - on 27 Apr 2013



> Would it be any good as a (clean) aid venue?



No

Bruce Hooker - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to waiting for snow:

> This was a criminal offence and amounts to both Theft contrary to sections 1-6 of the Theft Act 1978 plus Criminal Damage (for the bolts/ equipment which were damaged but left in situ). Has one of the interested parties informed Cumbria Constabulary yet?

Doesn't that depend on whether they had the right to bolt it in the first place? Using your logic the drillers could also be charged with criminal damage, couldn't they?

That's the problem with doing things on the limit of legality, it all falls outside the legal system, it's just between climbers. I agree it's rude awakening for those who assumed what they did was ok, on the basis of them wanting to do it, but such "logic" works both ways... like back in the days of bolting wars.

It's a bit like squatting vacant property, not doing any harm to anyone, after a few years it feels home... then one day the law arrives and the squatters, babies and all, come down to earth with a crunch, as it were.

I'm being a bit devil's advocate, but only a bit.
Offwidth - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to waiting for snow:

Sad and stupid. Can't see crimnal action helping much though, as what the going rate for a first offence given the likely motive?
Baron Weasel - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: Hmm - until looking on the UKC logbook I didn't realise exactly where the cave is in relation to Hodge... Anyway when we were there on Thursday night there was a car parked by that gate (down to The Works) which left just before us. I'll ask my mate if he clocked what sort of car it was... I think it was white or silver from memory.

BW
remus - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to waiting for snow)
> I agree it's rude awakening for those who assumed what they did was ok, on the basis of them wanting to do it, but such "logic" works both ways... like back in the days of bolting wars.

As climbers all we have to define what's acceptable is consensus. Regardless of your own opinions on the merits of dry tooling it is extremely selfish to go against the consensus and cause thousands of pounds worth of damage to a crag that others enjoy, especially when the venue is so obviously unsuited to trad/sport.

Of course you can argue that there is no consensus, but as far as I can tell the support for the works has far outweighed the criticism.
Baron Weasel - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to bob ashcroft:

> No

I am thinking sky hook, sky hook, bolt, sky hook, sky hook, bolt... On 'paper' it looks ideal?!?

BW
Bob Ashcroft - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Baron Weasel: in theory yes, but i reckon there isn't may hooks and it would be fairly hard considering it is a roof. I however am not the best person to ask as i am not an aid climber
goose299 - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
Utter a**eholes. This was a perfect little venue tucked out of the way and on horrible rock that no one would climb

With the epicentre/paddy cave tooling event this weekend, it's one hell of a co-incidence that it's just been done
Petarghh - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to bob ashcroft: It could be aided with a lot of help from the bolts, and the drilled tooling holes. Without the gear it probably would be impossible, maybe steves corner could be...

Its a total choss hole and its only use was/is tooling. I don't understand why someone would cause so much damage to the crag, in terms of value it is thousands of pounds and also hundreds if not thousands of man hours.

In my opinion if whoever did it get found, they should be made to compensate those that have put in the time and effort to create it. You cant just go and destroy something because you don't like it, there were many avenues to voice concerns, the BMC, the Bolt fund, the FRCC or the individual climbers that have made the crag what it is.

It needs to be re-established as soon as possible and an example needs to be made of whoever caused the damage.

Pete.
DeanD - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: I'm utterly disgusted by what's happened. I can't believe PEOPLE would organise and go to the lengths demonstrated to wreck such a out of the way but massively significant venue to the people that use it. From what I've read the damage has been carried out by PEOPLE who know what there doing as the rope work and persific bolts that have been damaged, you would need good knowledge of climbing.
This venue has no possibility of been used for trad or sport and has little to no bad impact on the surrounding area but only has the possibility to introduce people who may not normally visit the area to go and spend money before and after there visit.
Which ever morons did this should be disgusted with what they have done as they are cowards and thieves, I only see this as a bump in the road and their ignorance will only push the further development of such venues and this venue and further promote dry tooling.
waiting for snow - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to waiting for snow)
>
> [...]
>
> Doesn't that depend on whether they had the right to bolt it in the first place? Using your logic the drillers could also be charged with criminal damage, couldn't they?
>
> That's the problem with doing things on the limit of legality, it all falls outside the legal system, it's just between climbers. I agree it's rude awakening for those who assumed what they did was ok, on the basis of them wanting to do it, but such "logic" works both ways... like back in the days of bolting wars.


I admit that I don't know the exact details regarding The Works. I am assuming that since The Works had the support of people such as DMM that the area was authorised for it's use. I also accept that my law knowledge isn't that of a solicitor, that's why god created the CPS!

Regarding the initial drillers/bolters: for drilling to be criminal damage the rock would need to be property of someone who would not permit the drilling. My understanding was that it was a disused/abandoned quarry and with concent of the owners of the local quarry which is still in use. Damage to something natural with no owner or interested party is a very complex issue however.

Regarding the location of the bolts: the location of a person's property has no impact on their legal rights of ownership. If my neighbour parked their car on my drive, it does not give me the right to smash it up. Also if you find a wallet on the street and do not make a reasonable attempt to find the owner (lost and found), that is legally theft. The only way for such an action to take place legally would be for the appropriate bodies to go through the courts. This would need the BMC, land owner or local council going through the courts to have the bolts removed having made reasonable attempts to first contact the owners for them to remove it. The fact that this was done at night and in secret suggests that those who did it didn't think they had permission or the legal right to do it.

Regarding the impact of upon the theif/vandals: whilst you are right in saying that they will not necessarily get a sentence which would equate to all of the man hours taken to establish this facility. Should the person be found, at least Paddy Cave etc can push for some form of compensation for their equipment. Even if the final sentence is small, the person would have to deal with having a criminal record, which should affect employment prospects etc.
Bruce Hooker - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to waiting for snow:

On the other hand if the holes were drilled and bolts placed without authorisation then legally anyone could come along and take them out - if he thought he was cleaning up the place. I doubt that the bolt choppers were breaking a law although those who placed the bolts may have been.

All in all I don't think it is a legal problem and the law courts are unlikely to provide a solution. If they bolts had been deliberately weakened resulting in an accident that would be a more serious and probably punishable by law - there was a case in France concerning something like this for access to a caving venue which resulted in an injury (maybe a death, I can't remember) and the person concerned was condemned.
ffdalton - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh: I for one am lost for words, but for the sake of climbing and the future of our climbing way of life I am prepared if requested to give up my time to help re build this fantastic venue.
petegunn on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:

Myself and two others arrived at Hodge Close at 11am on Fri 26th just as Pete James arrived.

The Works

All the lower offs on the Industrial Sector wall have been chopped.
Two hangers on two routes chopped.

All routes in the main cave (Paddy Cave) have had all the in-situ draws stolen, except the ones on Guardian of the Underworld, however the finish is shared.
Bolt-on hangers also stolen.
Transfusion and Steves corner have Not been affected.

Bakewell Quarry

The Fang and Right Slip lower offs chopped.
10 Grivel draws stolen (Greg Boswells) (recovered 2)
Outside leg and Outfield unaffected.

Pete
goose299 - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to petegunn:
Jesus, whoever did it must have been fast. You'd think it would take a while to do
petegunn on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to goose299:
The bits of hangers and bolts that were left on the floor looked like they had been cut with a hacksaw rather than a big set of bolt cutters.

15 routes in total were either vandalised or had equipment stolen between the two venues.

Ropes would have had to be set up on at least 5 different locations to access the lower offs.
A ladder could have been used to get to the draws and to unscrew the bolts in the cave or by aiding across bolt to bolt.

A very malicious and time consuming act.

Big Lee - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Ok just to clarify, if it is generally agreed that legal proceedings would not possible were the culprits to be caught, is there anything that could be done in the future to help bring legal charges if the situation arose again? Legal agreements between the BMC and landowners for example? I am no legal expert. It seems a great shame that this venue has been trashed.
waiting for snow - on 27 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> On the other hand if the holes were drilled and bolts placed without authorisation then legally anyone could come along and take them out - if he thought he was cleaning up the place. I doubt that the bolt choppers were breaking a law although those who placed the bolts may have been.

In order for them to justify it as "cleaning up" they would have to prove that they did not reasonably believe the item was in use, or that the owner wanted the item. From what I've heard regarding quickdrawers etc being left in situ when this incident took place, I feel that they would find it impossible to claim they were simply picking up litter.

If you're suggesting that those responsible thought they believed the bolts were there illegally, then they have gone about this in the wrong way and commited criminal offences in the doing. If you see someone parked illegally, you can't just damage or TWOC their car! This is the same. The legal defences covered by the Criminal Damage Act only cover it as lawful if they had an honestly held belief that they had consent, the owner would have granted consent had they known the circumstance, or the damage was necessary in the defence of other property. The fact that this matter was done at night and in secret proves that who ever did this did not believe their actions were legal or with consent. As with anything, short of saving life or limb, if you suspect a criminal offence is being commited you should phone the police, not lurk in the dark with a hack-saw!

Camm on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
Disgusting, I've been meaning to head over to the works for a while now.
ice.solo - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

bunch of pricks.

no shortage of potential culprits after seeing the way some people react to even the mention of DT on here.

hope you find them and take appropriate action.
Jack Loftus - on 28 Apr 2013
Gutted to hear the news of this Vandalism.
Even more gutted to hear that it sounds like a climber has done this damage.

So much work has been put into this place from some dedicated people, along with generous donations from outdoor companies. If this was done in some town/village then they would be reported to the police and prosecuted. I hope who ever has done this is caught and will be named and shammed within the climbing community.

It seems that they could be a UKC user, in which case I hope they are reading this thread and feel ashamed.








Minneconjou Sioux - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

If you hold such a strongly held belief that confers such a sense of entitlement that you feel justified in taking this type of action surely you must also have the balls to stand up and say that you did it?

Otherwise you have achieved nothing.

So come on, grow a pair, and come forward. Then we can start the disucussion.
Minneconjou Sioux - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

If you hold such a strongly held belief that confers such a sense of entitlement that you feel justified in taking this type of action surely you must also have the balls to stand up and say that you did it?

Otherwise you have achieved nothing.

So come on, grow a pair, and come forward. Then we can start the discussion.

DeanD - on 28 Apr 2013
To the scum, cowards, thieves and ignorant human beings. As mentioned above if you think so strongly then step up and state you're case. You can even set up a fake email or profile if you don't have the minerals.
xplorer on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Absolutely pathetic, this will only cause more problems in the future. Obviously done to annoy the dry toolers.

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fil-p - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: as one of the people who was part of the initial set up of the works I am gutted and more than annoyed at what has happened. The way it's affected so many people in different ways is mind boggling. From the the backing of Lyon and dmm for the draws and bolts, the Bmc bolting fund, our time making the routes, Brians time putting the works in the new lakes winter guide, andys time taking photos, to helping Andy and Si prepare for their participation in the ice World Cup. The time was taken to find an area that had no use to other climbers to try an avoid issues. I find it strange how only after nearly a year that someone has timed it to coincide with what was paddys tooling workshop. Tooling is finally making its own as a sport with the help of such venues like the works, white goods etc. having these venues will surely help stop the millstone incidents happening again. This was obviously a well thought out act of destruction to the works. Hopefully the support being shown will help prove that the works has its rights as a tooling venue. Phil.
Jamie B - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to fil-p:

> Hopefully the support being shown will help prove that the works has its rights as a tooling venue.

That's surely never been in doubt - I can't think of a bolted venue with less conflict of interest. Given that I'm increasingly starting to suspect that this is a strike against the activity of dry-tooling itself. There have been lots of noise-makers on this forum trying to prove a causal link between dry-tooling and "scratching-up out-of-condition rock-routes". Maybe one of them has some information?

petegunn on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to petegunn:
Just bumping this up as bolts ans lower offs have been chopped in both quarries aswell as the draws being stolen

The Works

All the lower offs on the Industrial Sector wall have been chopped.
Two hangers on two routes chopped.

All routes in the main cave (Paddy Cave) have had all the in-situ draws stolen, except some on the new project.
Bolt-on hangers have also been stolen.
Transfusion and Steves corner have Not been affected.

Bakewell Quarry

The Fang and Right Slip lower offs chopped.
10 Grivel draws stolen (Greg Boswells) (recovered 2)
Outside leg and Outfield unaffected.

Morgan P - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: Having someone willing to do this kind of damage to a venue which doesn't seem to be of any use to anyone else is downright ridiculous. If they had a statement against dry toolers to make then why would they destroy the venues that are there FOR dry-toolers so they don't mess up existing routes elsewhere?!

It's clearly someone without the hindsight to realise that their actions are going to cause one of two things: either the venue is restored and all they've done is piss a lot of people off or that the venue isn't restored and dry-toolers start using normal rock routes because they don't have their own venue.

I hope to god that this dick is found out and extradited from the climbing community.
johang - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: Not good news. Thanks to all the guys who took time and effort to set this place up, I went a couple of times before winter kicked in and it was great fun! No more for the minute it seems:(

Lew13 - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Guess it won't be long before we see another Millstone incident now one of the main tooling venues in the country has been destroyed!
stuart58 - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: Hi there seems many people are angry about this and how much it has cost. Just a thought as it was/is a free venue why dont people donate say £5 or more and send it too the Epicentre in Ambleside so this venue can be reinstated . What do people think !!!
Wiley Coyote - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

About the only good thing about this is the number of non-participants who have come out in support of the venue. We're quick enough to have a go at dry toolers when existing crags are perceived to be damaged so I think it's only fair that we should give them credit when they create a specialist venue for themselves that harms no existing routes. I hope that whoever did this is seeing how isolated they are and that The Works will be restored to action asap
mark s - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: looks like everyone is in agreement that this place is a good venue for dt.ive never even thought of going dry tooling but think what has happened is disgusting.
i dont think it will be long till there are names of culprits on here.
i hope the place is up and running as per usual as soon as possible and this publicity is a good thing for the place
Dave Almond - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to stuart58: Just 50p off the 4000 would be more than enough. Any extra could provide a camera system to keep vandals at bay.
Dave Almond - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to stuart58: Just 50p off the each of the 4000 reader of this thread would be more than enough. Any extra could provide a camera system to keep vandals at bay.
In reply to Dave Almond: You can see how cutting bolts can be seen as an ethical statement, be it wise or not; but taking someone's quickdraws just seems like theft. In past de-bolting actions, the choppers have offered to returns hangers, quickdraws and the like to show they were making a statement not just nicking stuff; but I wonder if who ever did this is going to offer Greg his quickdraws back? I think they should do so pretty quickly before it becomes simple theft rather than 'just' a climbing-ethics thing.
jon on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Might narrow it down a bit - anti dry tooling and anti fixed draws.
MarkRoe - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to stuart58:

Great Idea!
DeanD - on 28 Apr 2013
Been climbing there today. With a little work it will be up and running in no time.
Mike Stretford - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to DeanD:
> Been climbing there today. With a little work it will be up and running in no time.

Good stuff. I don't dry tool but it's good not to let the bastards win.
TheoL - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: Before anyone starts replacing the gear I think something needs to be done to stop it happening again. I would hate for people to go through the time and expense of replacing bolts, quickdraws etc. Just to see this new article in a few months time. Whether that be through CCTV or educational signs stating the crag as a BMC approved DT venue? Not sure if the latter would deter someone of this mindset...even with CCTV it couldn't be monitored 24/7, so they could just cover their face and park somewhere else.

Just out of interest, why is it that draws were left in-situ? Not saying that this gives anyone the right to take them, is it for saftey?
Petarghh - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to TheoL:
>
> Just out of interest, why is it that draws were left in-situ? Not saying that this gives anyone the right to take them, is it for saftey?

Would have been very difficult/time consuming to place and remove draws every time, due to the difficulty of the routes, we had had incidents of a couple of draws being stolen in the past, this was overcome by removing any draws that could be easy to reach from the ground, so in general you had to place a couple of draws at the start of the climb then continue on fixed draws, these were all placed on mallions to make them difficult to remove.
Somerset swede basher - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

I've not read all the above posts so this might have already been discussed but it might be worth thinking about whether other venues (White goods etc) might be on the culprits 'ticklist' and how they could be protected.
Ben1983 - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
It seems to me that we should be keeping an eye on the remaining dry-tooling venues (I'm thinking White Goods in particular as it is so well known).
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Ben1983 - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Somerset swede basher: Touche.
Ben1983 - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
Just a further thought - were the Maillons glued shut or otherwise rendered unscrewable? If so, this might give a reason to hacksaw the thinner and stable bolts rather than the maillon, to steal the quickdraws? If you could just unscrew them, then we are definitely not 'just' talking about a robbery...
ffdalton - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Papillon: Just got back from climbing at Hodge with DeanD. Abseiled in to the Ind area, ladder not required, but would be nice. Climbed all morning, your right the bastard wont win. Always presuming the said bastard was ever fathered.
TheoL - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh: ah ok, thanks for the answer.
TheoL - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Ben1983: Perhaps if it is the case that the maillons were glued shut or even done up extremely tightly the quickdraws will be returned in a few days?

It sounds like this was likely done by one person in a very short time frame. To go round undoing the maillons and then chopping/cutting the bolts is more time consuming than just chopping/cutting the bolts with the draws still attached.

I find it ironic that this person is likely making a statement about 'Ethics' and yet they have themselves committed theft...
Burnsie - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

If someone has done this to make a statement, then they need to come forward and make a statement. Otherwise we can only assume this is vandalism pure and simple.

A while ago bolts were cut in the Scottish mountains and the person came forward and made a clear rational argument as to why they were chopped. I have nothing but respect for the way this was handled. It takes way more guts to fess up to the climbing public than to go sneaking around a grotty quarry at some obscure time of the day. (Incidentally I am still totally opposed to bolts in the Scottish mountains and will happily chat face to face with anyone on the subject)

So assuming the perp doesn’t come forward we have to think of a motive. Back to the experiences in Scotland when Scott Muir was active in the dry tooling scene I know one thing that did rub a lot of people up the wrong way was the commercialisation of it all. Red Bull, photos of people looking rad etc etc. So it think its fairly safe to say that something like this has probably got a lot to do with the timing of this incident :

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5350

People going off and developing a venue for their own training purposes seems fair enough to me. A bunch of guides and some fairly big commercial names, developing a venue then looking to profit out of it, then you have to admit this is going to rub lots of people up the wrong way. (even if this is not how events have transpired, it’s how it looks to an outsider looking in)


So are we looking at vandalism or is someone wanting to come forward and make a statement ?
Andy Say - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to TheoL:
I'm not convinced that this is simply a purely ethical statement.
There have been references 'up-thread' to 'an event' planned for this crag in the near future. I'd suggest that this is intended to disrupt said event just as much as making some form of statement.
For those with long memories Hodge Close has previous form as the proposed venue for an outdoor competition that caused some controversy.....
Andy Say - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Burnsie:

Snap!
MJ - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Andy Say:

For those with long memories Hodge Close has previous form as the proposed venue for an outdoor competition that caused some controversy.....

For historical completeness: -

http://info.rockrun.com/articles/the-great-lakes-bolt-debate-of-the-early-90s.html
Andy Say - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to MJ:
Thanks for that link :-)

Though in my mind it wasn't so much 'instructors' vs 'climbers' as BMC vs 'The British Association of Sport Climbers' (have I got that name right? I doubt it!)
Simon Yearsley - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Burnsie: Re "People going off and developing a venue for their own training purposes seems fair enough to me. A bunch of guides and some fairly big commercial names, developing a venue then looking to profit out of it, then you have to admit this is going to rub lots of people up the wrong way." Why?
DeanD - on 28 Apr 2013
I hope this thread doesn't Deviate from it original purpose
Burnsie - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Simon Yearsley:

Because if you can't admit it then you are not considering things from neutral point of view.

Bolting= controversial
Bolting plus dry tooling = even more controversy.
Bolting plus dry tooling with thrown in commercial interests of guides plus some big name sponsorship = super controversial!

I'm not saying I agree with what has happened, looks likes the perfect venue. I hope the locals get it rebolted soon. Having nothing to do with the venue I'm just saying what it looks like to someone looking in from the outside.
Sam Simpson - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: if there is a website or an activist involved with putting up the bolts please send send me an email, id be happy to contribute with a small donation to get this fantastic venue up and running again. Pretty digusted..
mikecollins - on 28 Apr 2013
Absolutely disgraceful and deeply saddening. The Works was (and hopefully will be again) an outstanding venue that I and many others had trained at.

It was outstanding in its development and provided a unique training ground for those climbers who wanted to push themselves in the winter arena.

I'm struck as to which is more shocking - the lose of and damage to the amazing routes, or the total waste of man hour that many great and inspiring climbers have devoted, or the total idiotic, sad and childish behaviour of some inept, pathetic individual. Unfortunately the climbing community is intermingled with this type of person - luckily they usually content themselves to sit behind a laptop and rant from there.

I fully agree with opposing drytooling at legitimate climbing venues, but the Works was not one of these. It was a shitty, chos hole that was developed into something outstanding. Each sect of the climbing world has as much entitlement to climb, develop and progress as they see fit. Bolting and sports climbing is as good a reflection of this as any - but few argue with its legitimacy.

For the record - I think this is a personal vendetta. Nicking kit is one thing, nicking hangers and lower-offs is conceivable - destroying bolts is boarding on the psychotic.

If a collection is made to re-fit, I'd be more than happy to contribute as would all that I climb with. Equally true if help if needed.
Ramon Marin - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Burnsie:

This crag was bolted for the benefit of all of us, not just the names and the sponsors. My girlfriend got introduced to drytooling at the Works for our upcoming ice climbing trip and she love it. Whoever did this is very shortsighted, selfish and very backwards thinking, but most of it, a coward of the biggest scale.
Graeme James Cook - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: it is really quite sad that an individual, or individuals, have devoted so much effort and time into making such a statement. I think it likely that it is a local, somebody who is very proficient, devoutly trad and has most likely spoken out previously against radical developments. It is very unlikely that they will ever claim credit for such a thing. Why? Because they don't have big enough balls to do so.
DeanD - on 28 Apr 2013
Just to put in perspective there are single routes there that took 3 days to bolt. That passion and commitment to the sport is amazing. I personally am truly grateful to those who established this venue and no one forces anyone to do anything.
3leggeddog on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Simon Yearsley:

I am very supportive of the whole DT thing but I can see the concerns raised here re commercialism.

If was landowner of the works or similar, I may well be happy with it being developed for use as a DT venue, rave cave or dogging venue but if I then saw it being used commercially and large sums being made from it, it would be asking questions/wanting a slice. Foredale quarry ring any bells?

I am in no way suggesting that the land owner had anything to do with the vandalism.
Bruce Hooker - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to Graeme James Cook:

> Because they don't have big enough balls to do so.

Many posting her seem obsessed with testicles! Have you really no more appropriate way of expressing your selves than such macho clichés?

I don't see how it would even be true as apparently it took a lot of effort and time so quite high risk of being caught, so that it is deplorable may be a reasonable statement but hardly cowardly. Regular climbers there must know who it was though, it's unlikely that it was just done out of the blue without the people concerned having a moan at those doing the bolting beforehand.
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Misha - on 28 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
A real shame, to put it mildly. Haven't yet been there but was hoping to visit one day.

Destroying a training venue that is of no harm to existing routes and of no interest to anyone else is just an irrational expression of hatred. Perhaps their real issue is with people doing winter ascents of summer routes and being able to do increasingly hard routes as a result of the dry tooling training. That logic doesn't work though as without the dry tooling training people would still go winter climbing, just on easier routes!

Perhaps it's time for the BMC to put some time into explaining what dry tooling is all about and where it can and can't be done, eg via Summit, the BM website, etc. As there are some pretty misguided people there. I haven't been involved with the development of the DT venues so I'm not the best person to write an article for Summit (if they would run it) but would be happy to help out with writing one.
Mungo Shuntobox - on 28 Apr 2013
Hmmm

the world is full of wankers, the more I know about people, the more I like cats.

I don't really get the dry tool thing - to me it's not a third way, and I see hate to see routes spoilt by tool users who can't wait for full winter conditions. There was a pic on here of Bowfell Buttress late 2012 that encapsulated this debate.

However - this venue was picked as far as I can see to totally avoid bolt/dry tool controversy on previously established routes, and deserves both respect and protection. Well done guys - you're protecting climbing heritage by creating venues like this. There's no excuse to be damaging historic routes when you can go and 'train' in a quarry no one else wanted to play in.

The person who did this committed offences under the Theft Act and the Criminal Damage Act as far as I can see, unless they were the quarry owner removing unwanted bolts which on the face of it I doubt. As a plod - I hope this has been reported and the remaining cropped off bolt ends fingerprinted - you never know your luck.

So no - keep your tools off established routes until they're well and truly needed, and in the meantime let's help these guys build venues that please all parties, sad old traditional climbers like me, and the dry toolers too.

UK C - howabout an official page with a way to drop these guys a fiver?
Hammy - on 28 Apr 2013
Has the landowner given consent for the use of the quarry for this purpose? Perhaps....?

The combination of an ethically suspect climbing style, blatant commercialism, substantial Internet coverage and leaving an enormous amount of expensive shiny equipment in place makes me not surprised in any way of this outcome.

Personally I think ice axes are for whacking into ice...but then I'm a bit old fashioned.
Simon Yearsley - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Burnsie: I see your point(s) and certainly the first one is well made - thank you. I do though think the "destroy it cos its super controversial and cos folk are making an income out of it " (my paraphrasing, not your words, nor an assumption of any rationale of the actual perpetrator) is a tad shortsighted and lacks any real historical depth: the mountains of the UK have long been used as environment in which talented practitioners can earn a living by guiding, coaching or leading others. This is true whether its early shepherds earning money for guiding Victorian gentlemen up Pillar Rock, the Outward Bound establishing centres here in the 50s, loads of instructional groups on Brown Slabs, or Andy, Paddy, Steve or Greg running a coaching & motivational session this weekend. Our mountains (and scrotty quarries) are as good a place as anywhere to earn a living through instruction, coaching and inspiring others to enjoy our sport.
ice.solo - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

thing is, they havent destroyed a venue or stopped drytooling - theyve only f*cked off a small but vocal crowd and abused the goodwill of some quality gear providers. if anything theyve given weight to the DT crowd by making the anti-DT cause look bad, no worse and destructive than they fantasize the DTers to be.
a pretty poor show that only makes climbers in general appear petty and childish.

i dont doubt the idiots that did this are sitting at their computers jerking of to this thread and the scene theyve caused, cowards as they are.

the guys that put those routes up and the businesses that backed them will only replace whats been done, likely with more vigor and now more people aware of their efforts, some of whome will join them in their sport.
its a minor setback that will only make honorable DTing all the more respectable, especially it now has an ethical balance - weve all known hysterical anti-DTers to be bark but little bite, now we see they are cowards too.
Minneconjou Sioux - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Graeme James Cook)
>
> [...]
>
> > I don't see how it would even be true as apparently it took a lot of effort and time so quite high risk of being caught, so that it is deplorable may be a reasonable statement but hardly cowardly.

Anyone can sneak into a crag without being caught. And what would the risk really be. Someone sees you so you leave? C'mon Bruce think it through. It was cowardly if the perpetrator does not come forwards, plain and simple.
ice.solo - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Its cowardly if they hide behind the greater anti-DT crowd, who may not be represented by this event.

Bruce Hooker - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux ice.solo etc. :

Why is it cowardly? This seems to be a bit of a use of the word as when the press refers to suicide bombers as "cowardly" - whatever they are they are not cowardly, it's misusing a word when what you all really mean is "doing something that I think is really bad but cannot find an appropriate word to describe". The same for the testicles obsession, which also show other facets of the personality of the writer.

Perhaps studying the English language a bit or looking at a dictionary of synonyms might help?
Tom Last - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Underhanded
SCC - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Minneconjou Sioux ice.solo etc. )
>
> Why is it cowardly? ......

Lacking the courage of their convictions, in that they aren't willing to put their name to the acts the have undertaken?
One definition is that a cowrds is a person that avoids difficulty. I would say that in not admitting to the damage and theft of the equipment in question they are avoiding the difficulty of having to justify their actions or reimburse the affected parties.

Would you not say that counts as cowardly behaviour?

Si
franksnb - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: start looking on ebay/newspaper/gumtree for a large set of quickdraws!
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> Perhaps studying the English language a bit or looking at a dictionary of synonyms might help?

I think you may find that's called a "Thesaurus", you could check by looking it up in a dictionary though. ;-)

So still no one coming forward on this? There have been some very loud voices against some of the FWA done in the Lakes by the parts of the team who developed the Works. Were the same people upset by the equipping of the Works too?

martinph78 on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to petegunn:
> (In reply to goose299)
> The bits of hangers and bolts that were left on the floor looked like they had been cut with a hacksaw rather than a big set of bolt cutters.
>
>> A very malicious and time consuming act.

Could they have used an angle grinder? Hard to see in the photos, but looks possible. That would take a matter of seconds.
dutybooty - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88: I reckon John Griffiths, Ueli Steck and Simone Moro did it and have now caused this huge fight to take attention away from the issue.
jon on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> (In reply to Simon Yearsley)
> but if I then saw it being used commercially and large sums being made from it,

I really enjoyed this bit!
Offwidth - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Mungo Shuntobox:

"I hope this has been reported and the remaining cropped off bolt ends fingerprinted - you never know your luck." Word is CSI New York are so disgusted they are on the way as we speak.....

Back in the real world, we have some misguided vandelism. Bolts wars of various types are hardly new and has anyone ever been prosecuted?

Misha - on 29 Apr 2013
I suggest that every BMC area that has a DT venue (Cumbria, Wales, Peaks, any others?) should put this on the agenda of their next meeting to get formal endorsement for DT at these specific venues. This could also do with formal approval by the BMC national council. A policy statement on the development of any further DT venues would also be useful, i.e. chossy venues not currently used for other climbing. Same for the Scottish Mountaineering Council re the Scottish venues. That way consensus could be reached. Clearly certain individuals can choose to ignore it but people got to a point where bolting became accepted in certain places after much initial controversy, so it should be possible to get there with dry tooling as well. Particularly because it's still a niche activity and most climbers don't have any issues with it as they appreciate that it's done in dingy out of the way holes!

The other key point is to clearly differentiate dry tooling (which is a sport in its own right but in the UK mostly used as training for winter climbing) from winter climbing on routes that aren't in proper winter condition. That's a completely separate debate but one thing is clear, if someone chooses to do a route that isn't in proper winter nick, that's because they have a very flexible interpretation of what 'winter condition' means and nothing to do with whether or not they go dry tooling. No one goes dry tooling and then thinks "Now that I'm fit and strong, I'll go dry tooling up Cenotaph Corner".
flaneur - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to waiting for snow:
>
> If someone did this on an ethical basis, they obviously didn't realise that this will only push drytoolers onto the hills! Roll on the threads reporting people with Nomics getting seen heading up Langdale?

They have been heading up Langdale for some time: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67665

Which may, in part, be background to the actions of the phantom bolt-chopper.
Bruce Hooker - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to SCC:

> One definition is that a cowrds is a person that avoids difficulty. I would say that in not admitting to the damage and theft of the equipment in question they are avoiding the difficulty of having to justify their actions or reimburse the affected parties.

Couldn't this be said of people who place bolts too?

Reprehensible, dastardly, not very nice, caddish, "such men are the sort who would shoot a fox"... there are endless ways of describing people who took this sort of action, but cowardly is not one - in fact I'd say it would require quite a lot of courage to spend what must have been hours swinging about with the risk that at any moment a bunch of butch men (with large testicles) might come along and do very nasty things to them.

However, like suicide bombing, having courage does not imply the act is good, it's mixing up several different registers.
Bruce Hooker - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to TobyA:

You are right, a Thesaurus is a dictionary of synonyms, but my copy of Word uses the generic term, which is good enough for me.
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SCC - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to SCC)
>
> [...]
>
> Couldn't this be said of people who place bolts too?

Not in this instance. As the people that developed this DT venue have put their names to it.
They haven't tried to hide the fact that they have bolted an area or what they were using it for.

I know it's a bit of a leftfield idea, but why don't we let this thread about the theft from and vandalism of this particular venue stay about the theft from and vandalism of this particular venue.

If you want to try and justify acts like this with comments that equate to "well, they started it by putting bolts in <insert climb or crag>" then might I suggest a new thread.

Cheerio.

Si

paddy cave - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Hi all,

Firstly, I just wanted to say thanks (and I'm sure I can speak for the others who helped develop this venue on this...) for the many comments offering support for this venue. Its great to have a load of feedback from the entire climbing community after something like this as it helps clarify if the development of the venue was justified, supported by the majority, and hopefully working to control dry tooling and turn it into something positive and that can be progressed.... From the initial mention of something like this back at the BMC ethics meet and throughout the subsequent development process I can honestly say I haven't heard a negative word against this venue. There has been support from many manufacturers of kit for it and the Cumbria bolt fund were behind it all the way and offered advice, equipment and a large amount of lowers off's and bolt towards it. It has also been great to see so many in there making the most of it and enjoying the climbing even on a damp Autumn day when not much else would be on offer outside, the Industrial Sector Wall (M4 - M7) has been particularly successful and enjoyed by many.

So looking forward, it would seem the majority would like to see things tidied up and re-bolted. We have already had bolts from the Epicenter since the incident, other climbers have kindly offered up personal sets of quick draws to re-fix, and the Cumbria bolt fund has very kindly offered to try and continue its support to make the place safe again and usable. If any one does wish to contribute to the re-development of this venue, as a few have mentioned, then I'd say the Cumbria Bolt Fund is the way to go... any donations will be directly beneficial tot he Works and generally the placing and re-placing of quality bolts throughout Cumbria where it is appropriate.

Donate button on the site - http://cumbriaboltfund.outsrchosting.co.uk/

It would be great to have a statement from the people who did this so we can try and understand their motives, this could help anyone involved in the development understand further how a venue such as this can be kept from offending people. If we have no statement, we know nothing... It is easy to jump to conclusions. They certainly didn't leave the place clean, lower off stubs sticking out and nuts and sawn off pieces everywhere, the first 'litter' I've seen in their in fact! The Industrial wall has been the main target for actual damage, this was the wall that the majority of visitors benefited from. One thing I did note was that amongst all the routes that where equipped with Grivel, Petzl and DMM draws we had a few long sling extenders, these where all left behind and the better draws taken?? so it will be interesting to see if these are returned or if there was a theft element to this as well?! What the person/people who did this have done is not just made a statement against dry-toolers, but also the bolt fund and anyone who has contributed to it, and also what I think is the feeling of the general climbing community.

A few folks have mentioned the idea of using the venue for a commercial course as a possible motive. I did wonder about this myself. Whilst I could see this as being a possibility I'd struggle to see how the Works can be singled out under this justification. Most disused quarries in the Lakes and beyond, as well as single pitch crags, Ghylls etc etc are used, some very heavily, by commercial groups for various activities including climbing and abseiling. Some of these venues will have fixed gear or stakes, most will have some sort of maintained access track, some even have top bolts placed.. I have nothing against this and use many venues when working myself, those mentioned and also mountain crags, access tracks, winter venues etc etc, I'd like to think that introducing people to these experiences and the sport has a generally accepted value. So to single out the Works for this (the commercial) motive would seem wrong to me. The fact that myself and the others involved in delivering the course helped create (I think I personally have spent 18 full days putting routes together) this venue I'd have thought would give all the more reason for it being at least acceptable to use? Its normal as a provider to regularly use a venue but not necessarily contribute anything directly to its up keep as such, in terms of physical work at least. (car park fees etc may extend to up keep) Courses in the Works I think would be few and far between anyway and in terms of large commercial gain, anyone in the instructing industry will know this is not how it pans out. The course proposed for last weekend was put off as we (my company) where going to struggle to break even in fact, otherwise it probably would have run as developing this facet of the sport is an incentive to everyone who was involved and not just financial gain.

In terms of the re-build, I think with support it can be done fairly quickly. In addition to bolts we need to replace lots of hangers (bolts stubs intact), mallions and quick draws.

Any ideas, thoughts, feedback about the venue is welcome as we really want to make it as unoffensive as possible and a venue that has a value to everyone, whether a dry tooler, training winter climber, rock climber who hates seeing scratches on crags after covert training missions and has no personal interest in dry tooling, as well as non-climbers who don't like the look of insitu gear and people hanging about all day (basically no one passes through the Works who isn't there to climb)

Thanks, Paddy
maresia - on 29 Apr 2013
goose299 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to maresia:
Nice to hear they're going to give the gear back
I think this thread highlights that this 'group' hasn't done this on behalf of the people as not one person seems to be against the works
plyometrics - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to maresia:

I don't hold strong views on the core of this subject, but it's a great shame their anonymous protest and subsequent claims weren't carried out in a different and perhaps more dignified manner.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to goose299:
> (In reply to maresia)
> Nice to hear they're going to give the gear back
> I think this thread highlights that this 'group' hasn't done this on behalf of the people as not one person seems to be against the works

Oh, I think you're mistaken about that. I'm against it, for example. The gentleman in the balaclava is quite right, as far as I can see, to say that dry tooling is going to lead to an increase in the number of cretins damaging rock of all sorts.

The fact that gear manufacturers see the opportunity to sell more of their gear by sponsoring said cretins doesn't exactly reassure me either.

jcm
maresia - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to goose299:

I think the only their protest has shown is how selfish their actions have been.

They have vandalised a climbing venue because they disagree with damage potentially being caused to climbing venues. WTF!

goose299 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well then, surely educating people to this would be more sensible that just chopping all the bolts.
i've very pro winter ethics and don't like to see people scratching up routes
In the bmc article, the spokesperson for the group states that
'The new winter guide suggests dry-tooling will keep people off out of condition crags. There’s a small flaw with this theory, it’s been shown to be absolutely b******s.'

Does anyone know how it's been shown to be the dogs dangley's as it were
MJ - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to maresia:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/peoples-climbing-front-claim-works-chop-job

That has to be a joke surely?

The People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District
The Lake District People’s Climbing Front
goose299 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to maresia:
Whilst I don't agree with what's happened. I believe they're against damaging the rock and therefore won't give two hoots about a few bolts and hangers
climber666 on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Hear hear!
3leggeddog on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to maresia:

I had to check the date after reading that, 28 days late.

I have often compared DT to the bolt rantings of the 80's. Is the Works the new Frankie?

maresia - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to goose299:

But they should care about the fact that they have now rendered a suitable location for drytooling unusable which is potentially going to encourage inappropriate drytooling use of other venues. Some really backwards logic.

It would be like someone opposed to skateboarders using stairs and walls etc. on the street destroying a skate park. A place designed to encourage boarders not to use the street.
martinph78 on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to goose299:
> (In reply to maresia)
> not one person seems to be against the works

That isn't true. There are a relatively small number of people of people who have given support in this thread compared to the overall UKC membership. Then there are climbers who aren't part of UKC.

Did the Peoples Climbing Front raise their objections before the bolting started at the Works? Were they given chance to object during a consultation period? Just wondering if this is the first they've said/done on the matter or if they have raised objections previously. It's the first I've heard of them.



Toby S - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Could it not also be argued that rather than dry tooling established winter crags, a venue like this provides somewhere for them to go.

It sounds like the guys who developed The Works took a fairly considered approach to setting it up. Something that the People's Front for the Liberation of Their Fingers from their Arses didn't bother doing. If they had a genuine concern why not contact the BMC and/or the guys who set up the routes?
goose299 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to maresia:
I agree there, it is backwards logic
As a keen user of the works, I only hope it's back up and running soon and whoever is hiding behind the name comes forward as themselves
MHutch - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to maresia)
>
> https://www.thebmc.co.uk/peoples-climbing-front-claim-works-chop-job
>
> That has to be a joke surely?
>
> The People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District
> The Lake District People’s Climbing Front

Splitters!
Epsilon - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to goose299)
> [...]
>
> Oh, I think you're mistaken about that. I'm against it, for example. The gentleman in the balaclava is quite right, as far as I can see, to say that dry tooling is going to lead to an increase in the number of cretins damaging rock of all sorts.
>
> The fact that gear manufacturers see the opportunity to sell more of their gear by sponsoring said cretins doesn't exactly reassure me either.
>
> jcm

Tons of drytooling venues exist in Colorado and Canada and yet you almost never hear anything about someone drytooling an established rock route, it simply doesn't happen.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> Tons of drytooling venues exist in Colorado and Canada and yet you almost never hear anything about someone drytooling an established rock route, it simply doesn't happen.

Well, except here, of course.

jcm

Epsilon - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Epsilon)
> [...]
>
> Well, except here, of course.
>
> jcm

Seems like there's an inverse relationship between the number of established drytooling venues and the propensity for it to take place at established rock venues, rather than the direct relationship you are hypothesizing.
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Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Dry tooling is going to lead to an increase in the number of cretins damaging rock of all sorts.
> The fact that gear manufacturers see the opportunity to sell more of their gear by sponsoring said cretins doesn't exactly reassure me either.

Who are the sponsored "cretins" of whom you speak? I don't see any sponsored climbers damaging rock.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Toby S:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Could it not also be argued that rather than dry tooling established winter crags, a venue like this provides somewhere for them to go.

It could be, yes. My guess though is that the increased interest in/fashionability of dry tooling as a result of venues like these, encouragement by gear peddlers, etc. will lead to more cretins like Mr Millstone and Mr Brean Down (to say nothing of Mr White Noise and Mr 1984), whereas a clear statement that this activity is unsustainable and doesn't have any place in the UK would be a better idea.

jcm

Mungo Shuntobox - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Mungo Shuntobox)
>
> "I hope this has been reported and the remaining cropped off bolt ends fingerprinted - you never know your luck." Word is CSI New York are so disgusted they are on the way as we speak.....
>
> Back in the real world, we have some misguided vandelism. Bolts wars of various types are hardly new and has anyone ever been prosecuted?

Yeah hahahaha; hundreds of pounds of gear gone or destroyed (or even vandalised) is something I'd take seriously, so why should it not be reported to the Police and investigated properly?
AndrewHuddart - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

Either way, it looks like blackmail can be added to charges of theft.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Well, except here, of course.

Where exactly beyond the highly publicised Millstone case? One or two reports from one of the Lancs quarrries that I remember beyond that.

johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> I don't see any sponsored climbers damaging rock.

Really?! You aren't looking very far.

But anyway, everyone who uses these venues is being sponsored by gear manufacturers.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> Seems like there's an inverse relationship between the number of established drytooling venues and the propensity for it to take place at established rock venues, rather than the direct relationship you are hypothesizing.

Do you think? We've seen it on Ben Nevis and in Langdale very recently, haven't we? Would that have happened without the legitimisation of it which venues like this represent? Indeed, is this kind of venue really playing any role in stopping that sort of thing happening? I haven't noticed it doing so. It seems to me merely to enable the more skilled (and presumably also the less skilled and hence newsworthy) to get better at it and thus get out and gain column inches, and where people in the mags lead, the mass will follow.

jcm
flaneur - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to paddy cave:

Paddy, do you think you would have been fit enough to climb 1984 without having trained at The Works?
Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Try naming some names and instances and then I will have some conception of what you are talking about. "Sponsored climbers" often climb steep mixed routes under light cover, but that should not be equated to "damaging rock"
remus - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Epsilon)
> [...]
>
> Do you think? We've seen it on Ben Nevis and in Langdale very recently, haven't we? Would that have happened without the legitimisation of it which venues like this represent? Indeed, is this kind of venue really playing any role in stopping that sort of thing happening? I haven't noticed it doing so. It seems to me merely to enable the more skilled (and presumably also the less skilled and hence newsworthy) to get better at it and thus get out and gain column inches, and where people in the mags lead, the mass will follow.
>
> jcm

Or perhaps if people who enjoy dry tooling where allowed to get on with it in dedicated venues then they wouldn't feel the need to dry tool established trad/sport/bouldering venues.

There's no evidence to support either theory and until there is I can't see any justification for the hundreds of pounds of damage that has been done, not to mention the tremendous effort the developers have put in that has now gone to waste.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to remus:

>There's no evidence to support either theory

I don't know about that. The fact that the UK's highest-profile climber recently felt free to establish a pure dry-tooling route on the UK's most iconic mountain might be taken as some sort of evidence.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

>"Sponsored climbers" often climb steep mixed routes under light cover, but that should not be equated to "damaging rock"

It shouldn't?! And under no cover?

jcm
remus - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: How is that evidence? What's to say ben nevis wouldn't have a few more dry tooling routes if the works didnt exist?
Ramblin dave - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to remus)
>
> >There's no evidence to support either theory
>
> I don't know about that. The fact that the UK's highest-profile climber recently felt free to establish a pure dry-tooling route on the UK's most iconic mountain might be taken as some sort of evidence.

The fact that he subsequently pulled the blog post without much protest after White Noise was almost unanimously condemned is probably evidence that the existence of the Works (and more relevantly, Newtyle) hasn't lead to a widespread belief that dry tooling is okay on mountain crags.

Out of interest, did noone ever climb out-of-condition routes before dry tooling venues existed?

CurlyStevo - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Have you ever been winter climbing or dry tooling?
Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Do you understand snowed-up rock-climbing? Or do you subscribe to the common but unrealistic belief that it needs to be plated pick-deep in ice to be a winter route?

More "damage" will be done to a winter/summer route by climbing it when it is plastered in rime/powder than when bare, when placements will be far more precise.
CurlyStevo - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
agreed
Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> Out of interest, did noone ever climb out-of-condition routes before dry tooling venues existed?

They did. They also climbed lightly-covered rock, steep black rock and very snowy classic rock routes. And they still do. Some people dislike these activities, but they weren't caused by venues like the Works.

DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Do you think that people have only just started to climb in debatable conditions. (I think not)
The only difference is that everything is published online with pictures and videos within minutes of the accent.
The key issue here is educating people, what ever you're stance on this is nothing can justify the action that has been taken.
Climbing has advanced and evolved throughout its history, in its equipment and techniques and has always had its fors and againsts.
Drytooling isn't going anywhere and this incident has only given the works more positive publicity and hopefully educated some people as well.
The next step is to get the bmc to help tell people the correct information and establish some guidelines, so hopefully we can keep people from tooling on crags and develop more venues for drytooling.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

>The fact that he subsequently pulled the blog post without much protest after White Noise was almost unanimously condemned is probably evidence that the existence of the Works (and more relevantly, Newtyle) hasn't lead to a widespread belief that dry tooling is okay on mountain crags.

Well, no. But obviously DM believes it, or did believe it. No-one believed that ten years ago. Now one of our leading climbers does. How did that happen? It seems likely the movement of which The Works is part played a role. (and as you say, more relevantly, its Scottish equivalents)

jcm
ads.ukclimbing.com
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to DeanD:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> Do you think that people have only just started to climb in debatable conditions. (I think not)

My impression is that they are doing it more. And I don't think that a climber of DM's status would have done something like White Noise ten years ago, no.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to remus:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) How is that evidence? What's to say ben nevis wouldn't have a few more dry tooling routes if the works didnt exist?

You don't know what the word evidence means. Of course it's evidence. It isn't proof, but it's evidence.

jcm
Erik B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B: I dont understand why in a small area like the lakes, that the winter activists dont just focus on winter only lines? climbing summer classics in winter(in the modern snowed up style) is clearly causing upset.. its a small,you could say fragile,climbing area. Scotland shouldnt be used in any comparison, other than from a general ethical stance.
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Possibly not but the evolution of modern tools and the advance in overall climbing standards there will always be isolated incidents where someone will go against the grain.
I don't know but the transition from step cutting to tools mustn't have been a straight forward change over
Michael Gordon - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Obviously MacLeod has climbed at Newtyle a fair bit and it has no doubt improved his abilities on 'mixed' stuff, as it has many other top winter climbers. I'm pretty sure though that he would still have the desire to try these roofs if Newtyle didn't exist.
Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> I don't think that a climber of DM's status would have done something like White Noise ten years ago,

10 years ago you didn't have multiple ascents of IXs and Xs every season. A lot has changed, and much of it for the better.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
>
> [...]
>
> Some people dislike these activities, but they weren't caused by venues like the Works.

They weren't caused by such venues, no. But the question is whether they will become much commoner and more widely accepted as a result of such venues.

Since you ask, I've never dry-tooled and winter climbed only in the most trivial way.

As to this sort of stuff damaging routes, it seems to be one of those things people have different opinions about depending on their preconceptions.

Here's Rick Graham, who by contrast has done a bit of winter climbing, from the 1984 thread, for example

"Some routes ( probably including 1984 ) will be unclimbable after only a few ascents."

jcm

johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I'm pretty sure though that he would still have the desire to try these roofs if Newtyle didn't exist.

Possibly. But would he have thought it was acceptable?

jcm
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
You have a very strong opinion on something you havent done or don't really know a lot about
Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: You are always going to get someone who pushes boundaries be that a sponsored climber testing the water, or an ill informed newbie doing something incorrect (climbing a route out of condition for example).

This doesn't speak for the 99% of climbers who operate within the "Ethics" and see the works as a venue for improvement, allowing them to remain strong throughout summer in preparation for the winter season.

The people responsible for this attack have aimed it at a tiny percentage of climbers and have in the process enraged the majority. This is the issue here.

Pete.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to DeanD:

Assuming that's directed at me, I don't have a strong opinion. You should see me when I have a strong opinion.

jcm
Aly - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to goose299:
> Nice to hear they're going to give the gear back
> I think this thread highlights that this 'group' hasn't done this on behalf of the people as not one person seems to be against the works

That's not correct, I think others have expressed the fact that they are against the works. I am not personally familiar with the venue but if placements have been chipped or artifically improved, or indeed if whole routes have been created from drilled pockets, I would certainly consider myself to be one of those 'against' it. Is there anyone familiar with the quarry who could clarify that please as such a statement is (conspicuously??) absent from the logbooks and website writeup

Also, whilst I think a dedicated natrual drytooling venue is not necessarily a bad idea, nor is it incompatable with preserving rock climbing venues, there has been a huge increase in the popularity of dry tooling, and of the concept of 'mixed/european mixed (a euphamism for drytooling?) winter routes in the last two or three seasons. Whilst this is an anecdotal observation of course, it certainly seems to exist although I don't what the correlation/causation behind it is.
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It was. No matter what you're position on the issue is, nothing justifies it. If you don't like drytooling then surely a pit in the ground away from anyone and thing would be the best place for us.
Michael Gordon - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> Possibly. But would he have thought it was acceptable?
>

Hard to say. No doubt he knew it would be controversial but perhaps not exactly to what extent.

DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Aly:
The placements are a mix of natural and drilled. This quarry is unclimbable for trad or sport routes as there are no holds on it.
It is also a quarry and is not a natural crag and is there from people blowing up the rock in the first place.
JJL - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Hmmmm.

Sounds like a pro fessional climber in the northwest?
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to DeanD:

I didn't say the present action was justified, though I must admit a certain admiration for it. I just said that not everyone approves of these venues, contrary to what some rather enthusiastic poster was suggesting.

jcm
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Admiration???
they can't even justify it themselves
Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: So you approve of people enforcing their views on others, whether they like it or not with no chance for decent conversation ?
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

I didn't say I approved, exactly. I said I had a sneaking admiration.

I get rather tired of the squealing from bolters when their bolts get chopped, as compared to their total indifference when they put them in where they shouldn't.

jcm
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Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> I get rather tired of the squealing from bolters when their bolts get chopped, as compared to their total indifference when they put them in where they shouldn't.

At those times there is an equal or possibly greater amount of squealing from opponents. Squealing is pretty much a constant throughout all ethical skirmishes. The good thing about today's squealing is that it has reinforced a consensus.
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I this case they weren't where they shouldn't of been,
Aly - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I agree completely.


In reply to DeanD:
> The placements are a mix of natural and drilled. This quarry is unclimbable for trad or sport routes as there are no holds on it.
> It is also a quarry and is not a natural crag and is there from people blowing up the rock in the first place.

I'm sorry but I don't think that makes it excusable. If you can't hold the same ethics for a roadside 'training' crag as you can for another crag (mountain or otherwise) then you shouldn't bother. I'm not talking about a bit of cleaning or removing loose rock but I don't think drilled pockets, chipped edges, bolt-on holds etc. should play any part in the modern development of new crags in the UK.

I remember spying a potential new rock route in the Llanberis slate quarries a year or so ago. Went I went back to have a proper look at it it had been turned into a drytool route, with a line of bolts and drilled pockets in a ladder fashion up the middle of it. This would have been done with the same justifications you use above. I doubt it will be climbed now unless the bolts are chopped and the pockets filled.
Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I wasn't making a point about people moaning about their bolts being chopped.

Im just saying an activist has made a statement about a minority of climbers...

What if a "pro safety" climber took action against a minority of bold climbers and bolted a bunch of gritstone or generally bold routes as in their eyes it was "making it safe" and "reducing the risk"...

Would you approve of their measures ?

Just because you dont like something, doesnt mean you screw it up for everyone else. live and let live, if they're tooling where they shouldn't, then have a go.
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Aly:
Well I defiantly don't agree with using already established trad venues to put drytooling routes on. Especially if there was a climbable route there.
But a quarry that had no interest what so ever and no use for any other climbing discipline then fair dos.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

>if they're tooling where they shouldn't, then have a go.

Well, that's the Popular Front's point, isn't it? "They" *are* tooling where they shouldn't, and rightly or wrongly, he thinks this will help stop that.

jcm
DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: it's a ridiculous way of going about it. DT isn't going any where so designated places can only be good.
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to DeanD:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously) it's a ridiculous way of going about it. DT isn't going any where so designated places can only be good.

Actually, my guess would be that it's a fashion that will disappear, rather like chalk climbing.

But time will tell, I dare say.

jcm

Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: But anyone could have that view over anything. It has been agreed through various organisations that the Works is a venue for dry tooling, and has been created for that specific purpose.

Its beside the point as its just going to get fixed, and repaired should further damage occur.

You cant let one elitist idiot spoil something for others just because they think they have some kind of moral high ground, I think it is obvious from the reaction that they are the ones in the wrong, personally I think the reason for this person coming forward under alias is because they may have just realised how idiotic their act was and should their true identity be found then any reputation they may have had would be ruined (and i'm guessing they don't want that!).


Pete.
Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Look at Norway, the US, Canada and the Alps... Mixed climbing and Dry Tooling is one of the fastest areas of progression at the moment.

DeanD - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh: If they have any intelligence they must realise how stupid it was.
Jamie B - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Well, that's the Popular Front's point, isn't it? "They" *are* tooling where they shouldn't, and rightly or wrongly, he thinks this will help stop that.

It clearly won't, it should be clear from this thread alone that the venue will soon be resurrected.

As to whether they "should" or "shouldn't" be tooling there, it's an unwinnable argument, and totally subjective. In fact the only way the argument is ever settled is through direct action, be it bolting or debolting.

Some would call this anarchy, and try to call a committee meeting instead. But I actually quite like it - if bolters or debolters go too far their efforts get reversed and people call them wankers on forums. But if they make sensible decisions which are broadly supported their actions will be sustained. But don't plan on doing either unless you are prepared to repeat the whole exercise when one lonely nutter decides he cares as much as you do.

johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

I meant that "they" are tooling on (eg) Ben Nevis and Flat Crag, and that the PLF think this will help stop that. Which maybe it will. I doubt they hope to put the Works out of action permanently.

jcm
CurlyStevo - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Chalk climbing certainly still occurs pretty frequently. Cant imagine it was ever in vogue!
Rob Parsons on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> ... It has been agreed through various organisations that the Works is a venue for dry tooling ...

Which are the organisations you're referring to? And where can I see a copy of the agreement?

Thanks.
IanC - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District

It's Peoples' not People's. If your gonna be an arsehole, at least get the grammar right.

GPN - on 29 Apr 2013
> (In reply to ruari88)
> People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District
>
> It's Peoples' not People's. If your gonna be an arsehole, at least get the grammar right.

In reply to IanC
Are you sure about that Ian? If you're going to correct other people's grammar you need to be pretty sure you're right...
IanC - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to GPN:
I was always awful at grammar. Just felt that a UKC thread has gone on too long with out someone complaining about the grammar.

Anyway back on topic...

I hope some sensible resolution comes out of this. Both of the big stories today so surprising so as to be April fools jokes but without the funny side.
knthrak1982 on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to IanC:
> (In reply to ruari88)
> People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District
>
> It's Peoples' not People's. If your gonna be an arsehole, at least get the grammar right.

Nope. The word "people" is already plural and not made so by the letter s.

People's = of the people (right)
Peoples' = of the peoples (wrong)
Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Pete Harrison Probably Banned: There is a massive list of winter ascents of various rock routes in the Lakes, Wales and Scotland. The issue here is one of conditions.

The presence of a dry tooling crag doesn't educate folk about winter conditions, correct.

Neither does wrecking said dry tooling crag.

Misha - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> I'm against it, for example. The gentleman in the balaclava is quite right, as far as I can see, to say that dry tooling is going to lead to an increase in the number of cretins damaging rock of all sorts.

You might be against dry tooling but would you go and vandalise a dry tooling venue, or condone those who do?

Anyway, the point is that climbing out of condition winter routes is a completely separate debate. I doubt that people who go dry tooling are more likely to climb out of condition routes. All the dry toolers I know (admittedly not that many) have sound winter ethics. Besides, a comment I've heard at White Goods more than once is 'we were going to go up to Scotland but conditions are rubbish so we headed here instead'. It gives people something to do when there's no decent winter climbing to go at.
Misha - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> But anyway, everyone who uses these venues is being sponsored by gear manufacturers.

With all respect, I think you don't know what you're talking about. Have you actually ever been to a dry tooling venue and had a chat with the people there? Sure, sponsored climbers like Greg Boswell use dry tooling venues but the vast majority are ordinary climbers (some of them very good, others mediocre like me) who aren't sponsored and are there to train or just have something to do in the off season between summer and winter.
Misha - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> We've seen it on Ben Nevis and in Langdale very recently, haven't we? Would that have happened without the legitimisation of it which venues like this represent? Indeed, is this kind of venue really playing any role in stopping that sort of thing happening? I haven't noticed it doing so. It seems to me merely to enable the more skilled (and presumably also the less skilled and hence newsworthy) to get better at it

Nothing to do with legitimisation. If someone thinks it's ok to do a route that isn't in full winter garb, they will go and do it anyway, whether or not they have dry tooled. The difference is that with dry tooling training people can do harder routes, so you are right that the more skilled can get better at it (resulting it less rock damage!). Take away dry tooling and you will still have the same issues, just on lower grade routes. Dry tooling isn't to blame, it's a question of people's winter ethics - a very subjective area!
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Misha:

>With all respect, I think you don't know what you're talking about

With all respect, I think you're a berk. They're all sponsored by gear manufacturers in the sense that gear manufacturers have donated gear to allow the venue they're using to be established.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Misha:

>If someone thinks it's ok to do a route that isn't in full winter garb, they will go and do it anyway, whether or not they have dry tooled.

Ach, come on. People think things are OK at least in part because they think other people think those things are OK.

jcm
Petarghh - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: All forms of climbing have the capacity to "damage" the rock.

Crampons - scratch rock and expose layers to weathering
tools - also scratch and could remove loose - unfrozen blocks.
nuts / cams - scratch rock as above and have the capacity to remove rock (cams expanding behind loose flakes)
Chalk - more visible than crampon scratches and unsightly.
Cleaning new trad routes, removes lichen and exposes layers of rock to new weathering
repetitive use of hand holds - polishes the rock

etc etc... so why are some forms of damage more acceptable than others, if a trad climbers inspects a new summer line and removes loose blocks then scrubs the pitch clean, this is surely just as damaging.

Trad climbers training indoors, getting stronger so they can then go out and attempt new routes... the same argument can be used for either party. its all a bit silly really.
cyberpunk - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh: Anyone know if this wa*k*r has been caught yet?
Misha - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Ok, I misunderstood you but perhaps you could have elucidated your point better for a dim-wit like me. Anyway, it isn't all sponsored by the gear manufacturers. There are some quickdraws and perhaps bolts that have been donated but a lot of personal expense and time has gone in as well. Others are better qualified to comment about the Works but I can tell you that the in situ quick draws at White Goods and Massons (of which there aren't that many anyway) are either personal donations or second hand stuff from a climbing wall that was going to be thrown away anyway. As for the bolts, as far as I know they were mostly paid for personally.

By the way, do you also object to sport crags? I don't mean retrobolted routes but sport routes that have been established where no trad routes existed or could reasonably exist due to lack of gear?
philhilo - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Not sure of your winter climbing experience there. If you had visited these venues, spoken to a few 'dry toolers' e.g winter climbers then this might lend your views a little more weight. You ever been to White Goods or Masson Lees? Just put up by regular climbers. Just like the bolted climbs at Cheddar, kept climbable by the local Cheddar owners - does that make you a sponsored climber?
Calling folks names suggests your arguments have run out of steam.....would have thought a troll could do better than that?
Misha - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> >If someone thinks it's ok to do a route that isn't in full winter garb, they will go and do it anyway, whether or not they have dry tooled.
>
> Ach, come on. People think things are OK at least in part because they think other people think those things are OK.

Sure - most people are influenced by others to some extent, in climbing as in other things in life. But my point is that dry tooling and winter climbing are two separate things, like sport and trad, so one doesn't really influence the other. The fact that I have done some dry tooling and know others who have doesn't mean that I'm going to do an out of condition winter route. That applies to all the winter climbers I know. I don't know anyone who thinks "there are all these dry tooling venues these days so it means it's ok to scratch up bare rock in the Pass".
fil-p - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: do you know, I was really hacked off when I heard about what had happened at the works. Due to the fact of the amount of man hours and expense that myself and others had spent bolting the routes there. That was, til I read your misguided, naive views. The quote of the day from you being " I don't have a strong opinion. You want to see me when I have a strong opinion. " classic !! I'm still crying with laughter
Bruce Hooker - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to SCC:

> If you want to try and justify acts like this with comments that equate to "well, they started it by putting bolts in <insert climb or crag>" then might I suggest a new thread.

I'm sorry if even a mildly different point of view offends you but this is a public forum after all... maybe if there had been more discussion then someone wouldn't have gone to such lengths?

My remarks were more about the extremely childish form of several posts - as if having large sexual organs contributes anything to all this and the perfectly ridiculous accusations of "cowardice" advance the discussion a jot. It doesn't take much courage to agree with the mob, when all is said and done, does it?

It's a non issue. The real issues is whether the debolters were justified in their actions or not, and this cannot be separated from whether the bolters themselves had any absolute right to do what they did - you can't dissociate the two. To put it another way, your horror coming along and finding your work damaged may be matched by someone else coming along and seeing what you had done and being horrified by that. I'm not saying this is actually the case but clearly someone must think it is as the damage proves.
tom290483 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Misha)
>
> With all respect, I think you're a berk. They're all sponsored by gear manufacturers in the sense that gear manufacturers have donated gear to allow the venue they're using to be established.
>
> jcm

John,

Your really letting yourself down here. I know your not a fan of our little genre of climbing...the private messages you've sent me in the past tell me that....but to admit admiration to what they did is poor form on your part.
In the past when I got annoyed with your comments I still held a small belief that they were founded on a decent bit of personal experience, in this case however, your talking about something that you admit you have never participated in and venues you have never visited.

It was myself that spent a lot of time emailing and talking to the guys at Lyon/First Ascent Marketing to get the Petzl kit donated in the first place. Yes, they knew it was for a DT venue, but weren't worried about us providing lots of feedback or press for them, it was, as the email I got back from them said "purely a case of putting something back in".

This incident has only gone and highlighted DMM & Petzls involvement and everyone should know what great companies they are helping out in the first place.

I've just had a message as well that AustriAlpin have donated 50 hangers to the rebolting of the place and will provide a further 50 at just 75p each. Bravo the Austrians.

The support for The Works is stronger than ever. A lot stronger than your voice of ill informed chatter thats for sure and come the Autumn the venue will have more routes and be back to the ultimate training venue for winter climbers that it was at the start of last week.

And whilst making trips to help in the re-boltingg this summer I may even take my trad rack and enjoy some fine Lakes classics. Dont worry I wont trash them in my rock boots and ruin the fun for everyone else.
stuart58 - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: you are a pr..k . People have worked hard on this venue the whole of lodge close is a quarry not a natural crag. Its been bolted for years. Why haven't these bolted routes been chopped. It you and these so call lake land climbers want to meet and discuss it open then come to the place and see exactly what lodge close is its basically a shot hole. But people are trying to make it a better place. I've been there it sad something different a place to try out your skills etc.
The next skills I like to do is to get my 12 bore shot gun out and shoot you the so call do goodies or tw.ts that have ruined an excellent venue. Please note I dont dry tool but I think its a great place.

Bruce Hooker - on 29 Apr 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> The people responsible for this attack have aimed it at a tiny percentage of climbers and have in the process enraged the majority.

Are you sure of that? As far as I can see this thread has only attracted "outraged" comments from people interested in this sort of thing, not even most frequent posters, and that's only ukc frequenters which is probably a small proportion of climbers as a whole.
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to IanC:

> If your gonna be an arsehole, at least get the grammar right.

I'm not sure that good grammar goes along with being an arsehole, as this and many other threads have demonstrated :-) In fact it doesn't seem to present any noticeable correlation.
goose299 - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
So it's only an issue if the 'frequent poster's' get upset?
Because that's what I read into your post
stuart58 - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: I dont dry tool but this venue was great in a place that really isnt a beauty spot. Look at the quarry next to it. The whole of lodge close is bolted. Its got wrecked cars rusting bits of equipment everywhere the venue wasn't harming anybody. Why can't these people discuss through the right channels. Also by your comments and an other guy on here are in favour of what had been done.
What I think you should do before making further comment is to visit the place as i have done and form a justified opinion or shut the f..k up.

johncoxmysteriously - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to tom290483:

>in this case however, your talking about something that you admit you have never participated in and venues you have never visited.

Yes and no. I've been to Ben Nevis, I've been to Flat Crag, I've been to Gable Crag and I've been to the Northern Corries. The latter two are to a certain extent already trashed by winter climbers and I can do without the first two being.

I suspect that the PLDF or whatever they're called are right to think that venues like the Works will accelerate this process, especially in view of the rather obvious personal link between it and one particular controversial ascent in the Lakes. I don't need to visit the Works or try dry tooling myself to have that suspicion.

That doesn't mean they're right in what they've done, but like Jamie B, I always tip my hat to anyone who cares enough to do this sort of thing, even if I might not agree on the given occasion.

In reply to various other charmless critics who I can't be bothered to reply to individually - you really overestimate the extent to which I care about dry tooling. I just thought the thread needed a bit of a corrective, that's all. My view is the very widespread one that DT is a laughable pastime, which is slightly deplorable and worrying but no more than that. We'd be better off without it, but there are worse things.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to stuart58:

Oh, and I've been to Hodge Close, of course.

Assuming that's what you mean by 'lodge close'.

jcm
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Misha - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
There have been a few people who said they don't dry tool but are shocked etc by what happened. And very few have been anti DT. The thread has had over 12,000 views. Assuming those with a strong view would post something, I can only assume that most people aren't too bothered by the existence of dry tooling and/or share the general view that this vandalism was unacceptable. I don't know who the regular posters are - perhaps you could email the all to ask their view ;-)
Epsilon - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to tom290483)
> I suspect that the PLDF or whatever they're called are right to think that venues like the Works will accelerate this process, especially in view of the rather obvious personal link between it and one particular controversial ascent in the Lakes. I don't need to visit the Works or try dry tooling myself to have that suspicion.

Again, this never happens in continental Europe, Canada, Norway, Colorado, Alaska, New Hampshire, or anywhere else where venues for M-style drytooling and mixed climbing exist side-by-side with rock (both sport and trad) and alpine objectives.

Is it your contention that British climbers are inherently incapable of distinguishing one type of ascent from another, and what venues are appropriate for what type of climbing? Surely you don't have such a low opinion of us as a group relative to climbers of other nationalities.
PeakDJ on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to all:

I have never been to the crag in question and I don't indulge in this form of climbing, but a few comments and questions...

Does anyone objecting to the development of this crag as a DT venue have any plans to put up trad or sport routes in the quarry?
Is DTing here likely to damage the natural environment more than other forms of climbing carried out elsewhere?

I thought the main reason for people's objection to this sort of thing was that it might damage or threaten more "traditional" routes. If this place really is just a damp, loose hole in the ground with no potential for or history of other types of climbing can we really apply the "thin end of the wedge" argument? How is it any different from dedicated sport venues, or can I assume that the people's whatever front are against those too?

Strikes me as an ill- considered act, not thought through properly. If it's a dedicated venue with no potential for other climbing and the development is OK with the land owner... well it's already been said by others.
wilkie14c - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to PeakDJ:
Has anyone noticed the severity of these sort of attacks is increasing? It started with classic rock routes being climbed in less than winter conditions, then tooling classics in 'non' tooling venues, Millstone and Denham for example, and now this latest act. It seems there is a fair share of extremists on both sides which is worrying for someone who sits in the middle like me.
andrewmcleod - on 30 Apr 2013
To add my opinion as someone with no (current) self-interest in dry tooling or winter climbing, I think this 'action' is stupid, counter-productive and wrong, and I hope that the venue is soon returned to its former state and not vandalised further.

However this event has pointed out to me that dry tooling venues exist, increasing the possibility that I might go dry tooling (in appropriate venues) in the future...

The people who wrote the email are also clearly stupid, as indicated by this terrible comma splice:
"There's a small flaw with this theory, it's been shown to be absolutely b******s."
SCC - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to SCC)
>
> [...]
>
> I'm sorry if even a mildly different point of view offends you but this is a public forum after all... maybe if there had been more discussion then someone wouldn't have gone to such lengths?

Not at all offended, just that the bolt debate is a separate issue to the theft from and vandalism of this DT venue in a crappy quarry that holds no interest for sport or trad climbers. Hence my suggestion for another thread.

>
> It's a non issue. The real issues is whether the debolters were justified in their actions or not, and this cannot be separated from whether the bolters themselves had any absolute right to do what they did - you can't dissociate the two.

Yes you can, and should.
Otherwise it leads to any action being acceptable in any case where you don't like what someone has done.
There's a guy that abandons his car in our street - he clearly can't be bothered to park considerately. I don't damage or steal his car though - and if I did I would be in the wrong.
I'm sure I was told as a kid that two wrongs don't make a right. Or something...


> To put it another way, your horror coming along and finding your work damaged may be matched by someone else coming along and seeing what you had done and being horrified by that. I'm not saying this is actually the case but clearly someone must think it is as the damage proves.

Err, not my work Bruce - I've never dry tooled and doubt I'd have the skill or strength to get up anything at the Works.
I don't think the people that did this were "horrified" at the bolts in a crappy pit. They just don't like drytooling.
I would guess because they are too small minded to realise that climbing winter routes in non winter conditions has nothing to do with this DT venue.

For the record - I don't and never have dry tooled so have no axe to grind (haha!).
I think the actions of the thieves and vandals were completely wrong and would have no sympathy were they to be arrested and charged for the theft and destruction of property.

Good luck to the guys that put effort, time and money in developing the Works, I hope that they can get it up and running soon.

Si
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to SCC:

> For the record - I don't and never have dry tooled so have no axe to grind (haha!).

And it shows !

The thing you seem to miss is that one man's vandalism is another man's good work. If you approve one group doing something on a crag which isn't theirs simply because they like doing it you can't really, from a moral point of view, criticize someone else who does the same thing, but the other way around.

I haven't done either, neither bolted and chipped or chopped bolts, by the way, but I do feel that in a small island like Britain the little we have in the way of natural rock requires protection unless you want it to end up like most low level crags on the continent... or worse as there are many times more crags in Europe.

I think we owe a more ecological climbing ethic to future generations - look how the crags have already suffered after not even a century of climbing as a mass activity.
Chris Harris - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to IanC:
> (In reply to ruari88)
> People’s Climbing Front of the Lake District
>
> It's Peoples' not People's. If your gonna be an arsehole, at least get the grammar right.

Regardless of the fact that your 'correction' is incorrect, this is an issue of punctuation, not grammar.

Also, as has already been mentioned, it's 'you're', not 'your'.

Must try harder.
SCC - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I don't think I'm missing that point, what I'm saying is that it doesn't really apply here.

Looking at the pictures on the Works website:

http://mountaincircles.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/works-lake-district-dry-tooling-venue.html

I would say that the contention that this place is of no interest to trad or sport climbers seems fair.

I assume that the permission of the land owner was sought and granted before the bolts were placed?

Taking both of these points into account, the action taken by the choppers would seem to be destruction for the sake of it - or more likely to prevent others enjoying an activity that they don't hold with.

You can't honestly look at the pictures of this place and think that it's a potential trad or sport venue that has been ruined - to pretend otherwise (not saying you have btw) is as dishonest as the theft of equipment that started this whole thread. Ok, maybe not quite that dshonest, but you get my point.

Si
goose299 - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to ruari88:
All the gear (apart fromm the Grivel draw's) have been found buried in a hole near the works
johncoxmysteriously - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to SCC:

>You can't honestly look at the pictures of this place and think that it's a potential trad or sport venue that has been ruined

I don't know about that, actually. I suspect Hodge Close itself once looked quite similar. It's hard to believe that at least the easier lines couldn't be climbed sport-style. Not that the toilers have ruined them for that purpose, exactly.

jcm
xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I get a sneaky suspicion that you don't even go climbing
GrahamD - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to SCC:

> Taking both of these points into account, the action taken by the choppers would seem to be destruction for the sake of it - or more likely to prevent others enjoying an activity that they don't hold with.

The activity they don't hold with is the climbing of rock routes in unsuitable non winter conditions - whether their action here helps in that regard is moot
johncoxmysteriously - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:

I don't. Never.

I have a sneaky suspicion that your profile can't be correct.

jcm
Rob Parsons on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to SCC:

> I assume that the permission of the land owner was sought and granted before the bolts were placed?

Do we know if that's the case? Or if indeed any other sort of consensus was established before the bolting etc. was done? I asked this same question above, and am curious to know the answer.
philhilo - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I presume that the person or persons who damaged the boulder problems at Robin Hoods Stride in an attempt to stop people bouldering (polishing holds, chalking up rock) was equally right in your eyes? Or are there different sorts of climbers who damage rock - dry toolers all 'cretins' and 'buerks' (more insults - poor form for a troll, or again run out of arguments), boulderers and trad OK ? What about sport climbers, good or bad? Lets go chop the draws on Cheddar sport routes in an effort to stop polish elsewhere - ok or not?
Off climbing now, maybe see you out there on the crag sometime or just playing chess as you claim to not climb anymore?
Misha - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I agree we need to protect the crags but DT venues are specifically chosen to be in places that are of no interest for trad or sport due to being chossy holes with no existing routes and often being impossible to climb conventionally (look at the photo!). If someone wanted to put up routes there, surely they would have done by now. Eg Masson Lees has been extensively bolted by Gary Gibson with some good routes and some chossy routes but even he didn't think the DT area was of interest for sport climbing! Similarly the Works is near an existing sport venue I believe but again has had no interest from sport or trad climbers. White Goods has bands of shale running through the overhangs, you could do some of the routes as suicidal trad or sport but again no one has been interested in that. I'm all for preserving the crags and generally against retro bolting but let's maintain a sense of perspective. We aren't talking about Stanage here or even Horseshoe Quarry.
xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I have a sneaky suspicion that your profile can't be correct.

Bit vague
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Misha:

I should really let others argue this point but I'll try to say what I gather the argument is, it's not even just the question of this place itself, the objection is to the increasing damage caused by "dry toolers" to crags in the Lakes and elsewhere. The attack against this quarry was because they see it as a place involved in promoting an activity they consider deplorable.

It a valid argument, a chicken and egg situation... some prefer the chicken others the egg.
xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

We all knew you would have a very opinionated say on the pathetic attempt to ruin a dry tooling venue. Just imagine if all the sports routes were stripped or trad routes bolted, you wouldn't be happy.

Don't even try and defend your pathetic justification.
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Rob Parsons on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> We all knew ...

'We'? Speak for yourself.

> ... you would have a very opinionated say on the pathetic attempt to ruin a dry tooling venue. Just imagine if all the sports routes were stripped or trad routes bolted, you wouldn't be happy.
>
> Don't even try and defend your pathetic justification.

A truly stupid post. Congratulations.

xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I take it your a member
Jamie B - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> like Jamie B, I always tip my hat to anyone who cares enough to do this sort of thing, even if I might not agree on the given occasion.

I feel you may have misrepresented me somewhat here. I believe that self-regulation works, but most definitely do NOT tip my hat to these guys.
andyathome - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
Just imagine if all the sports routes were stripped or trad routes bolted, you wouldn't be happy.
>


What a silly comment. If that were to happen no-one would be 'happy'. And I don't think any of the posters on this thread would be either.

Mind. I could support a bit of de-bolting, me :-)
ffdalton - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to andyathome: Everybody STOP , the works is back on track after todays hard work by a few dedicated climbers. whilst everybody else have been talking about it they have been acting, ie doing. The re bolting has started, lets be posative and move on.
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:

It seems you have the same problem with the word "opinionated" as others do with "cowardly". You take it to mean someone who disagrees with you, whereas it means something else. On this thread I haven't been opinionated, I just haven't jumped in with the howling pack, and this seems to be something you find unforgivable, infuriating.... all I can say is you are headed for blood pressure problems as you'll have to get used to many, many people who don't agree with you in the future.

As for imagining all sports routes stripped of bolts.... that would be very heaven but I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime. One day perhaps, when people see sense and the present fads are seen for what they really are this may come about, but I won't see that, evolution of a species is a very slow process.
xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to andyathome:

How is it different? I'd love to know if anyone actually ever climbed at the works before it was a dry tooling venue.

I understand that people are against dry tooling, but what happend last week is a disgrace, by sad pathetic individuals, that will never admit to doing it, they just don't have the minerals, that's why they don't dry tool
xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

No no Bruce, I'm quite happy, you don't infuriate me, your someone who I will never meet.

I've come to accept that there's a small percentage of "climbers" that are stubborn cowards who won't accept change. Who love acting the hero. I've also noticed that its a small majority that won't accept that the damage was completely out of order.
andyathome - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to andyathome)
>
> How is it different? I'd love to know if anyone actually ever climbed at the works before it was a dry tooling venue.
>
> I understand that people are against dry tooling, but what happend last week is a disgrace, by sad pathetic individuals, that will never admit to doing it, they just don't have the minerals, that's why they don't dry tool


Que? You are sure you are actually replying to MY post and not somebody else's? I've never had a go at The Works.

P.S. You are suggesting that you have to have mujo cajones to have the ability to clip into pre-placed draws whilst hanging off ice axes and placing your front point(s) into prepared slots? :-)
xplorer on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to andyathome:


No offence but again I've made an observation. It seems to be the older generation that have problems with dry tooling.

Just an observation
Tom V - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:

It will be interesting to see, if the culprit turns out to be one of our very top climbers, if the accusations of cowardice are bandied about so freely.
andyathome - on 30 Apr 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to andyathome)
>
>
> No offence but again I've made an observation. It seems to be the older generation that have problems with dry tooling.
>
> Just an observation

You have a go at me because I'm old? And not because of ANYTHING I've said on this thread?
Just where are you coming from......
Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I'm getting a bit bored of making the point that dry tooling and climbing out of condition winter routes are two different things. I dry tool occasionally. I've also walked away from routes that weren't in condition and instead gone and done something else that was in. So would most winter climbers, whether or not they dry tool.

If the objection is to winter climbing on out of condition rock routes then by all means get the ethical debate going through the BMC area meetings, climbing magazines and here on UKC and try to change people's attitudes that way. Whereas vandalising a DT venue is misguided, counterproductive and unacceptable. These idiots are just trying to make a point out of spite. If they think that their actions will stop someone who is prepared to winter climb an out of condition route, they are naive and deluded. People will do that whether or not they dry tool - it's a question of individual ethics and that's a matter of educating people, not trashing venues that others have put a lot of time and money into creating.
xplorer on 01 May 2013
In reply to Tom V:

It will not be a top climber, stop being so naive
xplorer on 01 May 2013
In reply to andyathome:

Not just you
Jamie B - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> I'm getting a bit bored of making the point that dry tooling and climbing out of condition winter routes are two different things.

Me too, the theory that the two are linked is pretty flawed and largely circulated by those with experience of neither.

Would I jump on a virtually black Agag's Groove just because it looks a bit like the place I go training? Of course not.
Tom V - on 01 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

You must know something I don't.
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> Me too, the theory that the two are linked is pretty flawed and largely circulated by those with experience of neither.

So who IS admiting to having the experience of climbing out of condition routes ? someone is doing it and there is a fair chance that they are the sort of people who will be attracted to dry tooling venues, isn't there ?



Bruce Hooker - on 01 May 2013
In reply to andyathome:

> In reply to xplorer:

> > You have a go at me because I'm old?

He could be having a go at me too, I'm old on paper too :-)

In fact I had a look at the profiles of the more outraged posters, those who spoke of "balls" and "cowardice", and noticed that they tended to be young, but I decided not to mention this to avoid being accused of 'youthism'.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to Misha)

>
> Would I jump on a virtually black 1984 just because it looks a bit like the place I go training? Of course not.

Fixed that for you, as they say.

jcm

Bruce Hooker - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> not trashing venues that others have put a lot of time and money into creating.

But one can also argue with some justification IMO that it's dry tooling, bolting, chipping and the general encouragement of these and similar activities that is the cause of "trashing", now and even more so as time goes on.

A more sustainable approach to outdoor activities had become a fairly accepted attitude not that long ago, until bolting spread like fire in much of the climbing world - hence Messner's famous "Murdering the Impossible" text - now the swing seems to be going the other way, partly due to a change of attitude towards "junk climbing" but IMO much more to do with commercial interests getting involved, and sizing up nice little earners - how long does a pair of crampons last used on rock rather than ice or snow?

Whatever, both sides exist to this argument and neither has a divine right to the moral high ground - certainly not the drilling and chipping side as this thread mostly seems to suggest, but here I'm showing my own viewpoint.
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
>
> [...]
>
> So who IS admiting to having the experience of climbing out of condition routes ? someone is doing it and there is a fair chance that they are the sort of people who will be attracted to dry tooling venues, isn't there ?

Based on the small number of people who dry tool I know I'd say the two don't follow.

The logic to the vandalism is like smashing up a velodrome because a cyclist cut in front of you on your way to work.
Jamie B - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think Paddy can answer that slur more knowledgeably and eloquently than me. Suffice to say that I believe the *urge* to climb steep snowless rock and the *training* to do so are separate concerns - most of the folk who use DT venues don't go near uber-steep, perma-black terrain in the mountains. But they do push their grade on white things. Is this bad?
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

Re your profile: it just seemed extraordinary that someone who had only been climbing 1-3 years should be quite such a cocksure gobshite. So I imagined that part of your profile must be wrong.

It also seemed surprising that someone who claims to go out every weekend should only be capable of a standard of rock and winter climbing which most people attain on their first day outside. Indeed, I wouldn’t have thought it was physically possible to be as useless as that, barring actual disabilities such as missing a limb or the like. So, again, I assumed that part of your profile must be wrong.

Happy to be told it’s accurate, of course.

jcm
Ramblin dave - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Fixed that for you, as they say.

Do you want to provide any sort of actual evidence that there's a causal link between the existence of dry tooling venues and people doing out of condition mixed routes? It seems to me like a fairly specious argument given that anyone who's been involved in the climbing world for long enough to climb at that standard will be well aware of what the local winter ethics are and well aware of why The Works - being a dry tooling venue in a disused quarry - is different from a historic mountain crag.

Tbh, people were making dubious calls on winter conditions before any dry tooling venues existed, and it seems far more likely that the recent cases are just more of those dubious calls rather than otherwise intelligent people thinking "hey, it's got no ice on it but I can tool up dry rock in an otherwise unused choss hole so I might as well sod the ethics and do it here as well."
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

The logic to the vandalism is not the same as the logic that says that the people tempted to scratch up out of conditon rock routes are likely also to be tempted by dry tooling in more acceptable surroundings. Its all the same macho playing around with shiny boys toys ironmongery in an environment they were never designed for.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

What sort of evidence did you have in mind? Causal links are awkward things to prove.

Why don't we do this the other way round? You produce some evidence it ain't so.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> I'm getting a bit bored of making the point that dry tooling and climbing out of condition winter routes are two different things

I think the problem is that saying something repeatedly doesn't actually make it any more true or compelling.

Of course they are two different things in a sense. The question is whether the proliferation of one will increase the incidence of the other.

jcm
Ramblin dave - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Misha)
>
> [...]
>
> I think the problem is that saying something repeatedly doesn't actually make it any more true or compelling.

There's a certain irony to you saying that at this point in the argument.
Jamie B - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

> So who IS admiting to having the experience of climbing out of condition routes ? someone is doing it and there is a fair chance that they are the sort of people who will be attracted to dry tooling venues, isn't there ?

I don't think you'll get many folk admitting to climbing routes out of condition! But I can certainly in my own experience think of occasions when we did a route which was a bit questionable and which others would have called black.

It happens. People get stoked to do something, travel a long way, devote time, money and energy to the project then fail to be deterred by sub-optimal conditions. In my experience it is less satisfying than the full "white-point", but rather more soulful than retreating to the cafe.

Is this the crime of the century? Not sure. I think the "damage" and "scratching" arguments are red-herrings. Any ascent of a snowed-up rock route will scratch it, end of, regardless of the extent of the cover. Some summer ascensionists despair of scratches on these routes, and maybe if the route has a long history as a classic rock climb they have a right? Maybe that's a separate discussion, but it's only ever going to be a theoretical one, as nobody will be physically prevented from doing these routes in winter.

It's been happening for a long time, and has nothing to do with the emergence of DT training venues.

Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> The logic to the vandalism is not the same as the logic that says that the people tempted to scratch up out of conditon rock routes are likely also to be tempted by dry tooling in more acceptable surroundings.

No it doesn't follow. The latter is a training the venue for winter climbing, not a rock climbing venue. The former is on rock climbing venues. The only people I know who use the dry tooling venues are experience climbers who are well aware of this. See second post on this thread.

You're just speculating.

johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

I don't know why you people keep ignoring the fact that the leading proponent of the Works has also been a leading figure in taking Lakes winter climbing into places where a lot of local hard climbers don't think it should go.

It just seems childish to me to go on saying that DT and climbing out-of-condition winter routes are not connected in the light of that fact.

jcm
goose299 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to xplorer)
>
> Re your profile: it just seemed extraordinary that someone who had only been climbing 1-3 years should be quite such a cocksure gobshite. So I imagined that part of your profile must be wrong.
>
> It also seemed surprising that someone who claims to go out every weekend should only be capable of a standard of rock and winter climbing which most people attain on their first day outside. Indeed, I wouldn’t have thought it was physically possible to be as useless as that, barring actual disabilities such as missing a limb or the like. So, again, I assumed that part of your profile must be wrong.


Christ, why is it whenever an argument on UKC occurs, there's always someone who has to mention grades etc? Willy waving a**eholes!
Just because you can climb harder, doesn't mean you're opinion is any more valid. According to your profile, you're 50. Start acting like that and not like you're in the playground

At the end of the day, people can climb but be comfortable in the easy grades and not want to push their grade and still have their own opinion, which should be equally as valid
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

> No it doesn't follow. The latter is a training the venue for winter climbing, not a rock climbing venue.

Only if the winter climbing venue has no snow or ice and only rock to climb, that is.

Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> I don't know why you people keep ignoring the fact that the leading proponent of the Works has also been a leading figure in taking Lakes winter climbing into places where a lot of local hard climbers don't think it should go.
>

'you people'? I aint part of a group it's a personal opinion. I'm not ignoring anything as I don't know what or who you are talking about. My only interest in this comes from questions I've asked climbers I know and trust, who use these venues, and are critical of climbing winter routes out of condition.


goose299 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:
He's referring to this argument
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67665
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> [...]
>
> Only if the winter climbing venue has no snow or ice and only rock to climb, that is.

I don't ice climb so I can only go off what I'm told. In this case it's your word against that of people I know and have climed with, who tell me these venues are useful training for ice climbing.
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to goose299: Thanks.
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

This took a while to compile - there are more examples.

All of these images were taken before the works (not sure about newtyle/white goods). At least in my opinion all were taken before dry tooling became "Popular" in the UK. most were before leashless tools.

also (in my opinion) all images show dubious conditions, where I would have either not climbed or looked for another route (I am a "tooler" and use the works regularly). I can also say that all of my climbing partners would think these conditions dubious

So - what inspired these guys to climb ?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=4632
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=4469
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=5462
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=11544
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=18030
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=21746
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=21920
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=27082
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=37595
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=40171
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=42371
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=61673
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=104513
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=104448
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=165558
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=107109
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=184791
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=165343
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=138741

The issue is one of education, if the guys responsible put their efforts into education of climbers - free lectures from big names, sending material to the BMC to publish on their website, they may have had more impact. This is a long running issue, and the presence of a training venue doesn't mean that there will be more of an impact on routes being climbed out of condition. It is what is going on inside peoples heads. not how strong they are.
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

> ...who tell me these venues are useful training for ice climbing.

I'm sure they are in a general fitness sort of way. Even better for training for climbing dry rock with ice tools though.

ads.ukclimbing.com
goose299 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:
Go on Pete lad! Day off work? ha
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to goose299: Aye !

Just trying to make a balanced argument for people to decide what the issue is for themselves.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to goose299:

>At the end of the day, people can climb but be comfortable in the easy grades and not want to push their grade and still have their own opinion, which should be equally as valid

I don't agree. I'm not sure what a 'valid' opinion would be exactly, but in my view someone who has been climbing five minutes is not entitled to have their views on ethical issues given equal consideration as someone who has been climbing thirty years, given the difference in experience.

The same goes for people who only want to go out and bumble. Nothing wrong with that, but they shouldn't at the same time expect their opinion to carry equal weight with those who devote far more time and effort to the game.

Just checked your profile. I see you're crap too. Somehow I thought as much. And training to be an instructor. Yippee.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

>'you people'? I aint part of a group

What?! Not even the group of 'people'?

Given the absurd ignorance your last posts have demonstrated
of the history which the BMC email (and indeed the thread) suggest lie behind this episode, would a period of silence on your part not perhaps be a good idea?

jcm
goose299 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I give up, you're a massive tool
Ramblin dave - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You should probably update your profile - you seem to have missed out all the hard winter climbing experience that's given you so much insight into how people like Paddy Cave think and why they make the decisions they do.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

You seem to have misread the posts of a number of other people.

You thought they said, ‘no-one ever climbed routes which were out of condition before dry tooling came along’.

They actually said, ‘people climbing routes out of condition is a growing problem and the legitimisation of dry tooling is exarcebating it’.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I don't have any, bar what he posts, of course, and more to the point what he doesn't post.

As I said before, I don't actually have a strong opinion. It always irks me though to see the sort of stupidity which the pro-toilers are demonstrating in pretending there is no debate which needs to be had.

jcm
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No, I was making the point that people were climbing routes out of condition before dry tooling. and the legitimisation of tooling is only making people stronger. it doesn't educate them either way about winter conditions.

So one could argue that the same problem persists, you just have stronger people making poor judgement - not necessarily more.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> No, I was making the point that people were climbing routes out of condition before dry tooling.

I grasp that. But since that point has never been in debate and had nothing to do with the worries people express about dry tooling, I supposed that you must have misread what people were saying.

>So one could argue that the same problem persists, you just have stronger people making poor judgement - not necessarily more.

Well, you could. But since when has the availability of all-weather, bolted venues where the punters can have a go at an activity *not* led to an increase in the number of those punters, and hence to them seeking to take over existing routes where they can perform their new activity? How did that go with sport climbing, I wonder?

jcm
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>
> >
>
> Given the absurd ignorance your last posts have demonstrated
> of the history which the BMC email (and indeed the thread) suggest lie behind this episode, would a period of silence on your part not perhaps be a good idea?
>
> jcm

And JCM spits his dummy..... just another day on UKC!
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh: You seem to be drawing the link

More people tooling = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition

This is based on the assumption that the people tooling do not have any ethical consideration for the winter conditions.

Again it is a weak argument, I knew what winter conditions were when I started out, I wasn't tempted out onto lines that weren't in condition.

If anything, the issue here is progression - in many cases of routes being done out of condition, it would seem to be people pushing their grade or trying to prove how "good" they are.

Now they have venues where they can hang upside down to their hearts content and show off the guns without scratching up routes out of nick.
Frank the Husky - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to xplorer)
>
> Re your profile: it just seemed extraordinary that someone who had only been climbing 1-3 years should be quite such a cocksure gobshite. So I imagined that part of your profile must be wrong.
>
Out of interest, how many years does one have to be climbing for before one can become a cocksure gobshite? "More than 20 years", perhaps.

Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes there is temptation - "Ive just climbed dry tooling route X and now lets go try out these skills on a real winter route", but there is a very very small minority (who i am totally against) that would go and attempt the winter line when it wasn't in condition.

I spent most of this winter looking at weather / condition reports trying to decide where to climb, i backed off several routes that were not in condition, and changed objectives a number of times.

Dry toolers are against people climbing out of condition climbs, it is these "Punters" that are ruining it for everyone else. I agree that to an extent the glamorisation of this type of climbing is bringing people to it that wouldn't have done otherwise. But as climbers we cant stop them, we can only strive to make sure that the training venues arent abused. and that damage doesnt occur to the mountain crags. You cant remove the entity all together just because it is abused by a minority.

I think you make valid points, and i agree you may not like the direction climbing is headed, but a few people with hacksaws aren't going to stop it unfortunately, and i dont mean that in an offensive way, I hate to see crags get damaged too.

Pete
Tyler - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

I should start by saying I have nothing against the Works, it seems like an excellent use of the limited climbing resources we have in the UK. That said I think there is a link between dry tooling and people pushing the boundaries of what is an acceptable winter route (both in terms of conditions and location). For one thing people keep banging on about how these dry tooling venues are training for winter climbing. Obviously they are not (hands up who's done a figure of four on a Scottish winter route) but people new to climbing will assume that's what winter climbing is all about. When they go to apply their new found skills they will look for clean steep rock and wait for a light frost.

As you say, people climbed out of condition routes before the Works was developed, but then they were considered out of condition and such ascents met with the opprobrium they deserved - I don't think that's the case any longer. Maybe it's just on here but for every ascent which crosses the line there are any number of apologists lining up to defend.

Developing these venue also creates a demand for other similar venues. Threads on here suggest that people now see it as right that there should be a DT venue in all climbing areas.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

>More people tooling = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition

>This is based on the assumption that the people tooling do not have any ethical consideration for the winter conditions.

Not necessarily. It might equally well be based on the following lines of thought:

A certain proportion of the population is inclined to behave irresponsibly.

More tooling=a higher proportion of the population winter climbing.

A higher proportion of the population winter climbing = more irresponsible people climbing = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition.

My guess is that there's more to it than this merely numerical argument, and clearly the chopper thinks so (if his email is genuine), but as several posters have tediously pointed out, it's hard to prove that absolutely.

Look at that idiot (another instructor) taking his tools on to Brean Down recently and posting online videos of himself doing it, for example. If DTing is producing people who behave like that in summer, then one suspects it's also producing people who are going to behave absurdly in winter.

jcm
GPN - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> Dry toolers are against people climbing out of condition climbs, it is these "Punters" that are ruining it for everyone else. I agree that to an extent the glamorisation of this type of climbing is bringing people to it that wouldn't have done otherwise. But as climbers we cant stop them, we can only strive to make sure that the training venues arent abused. and that damage doesnt occur to the mountain crags. You cant remove the entity all together just because it is abused by a minority.

I think the crux of the issue is that it's not just one or two punters climbing out of condition routes, but that the leading developers of The Works also happen to be the leading proponents of climbing existing (hard) mountain rock routes in the Lakes in winter conditions. Specifically the rather controversial ascent of 1984, the crux of which was allegedly totally bare.

Bruce Hooker - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> More people tooling = more winter climbs being attempted out of condition

Isn't that pretty obviously true though?

Are people really training on such crags just to climb on such crags? Not for using the techniques they practise elsewhere? Or do you maintain (genuine question) that people training on overhanging rock on chipped holds and fixed protection doing it solely to improve their ability to climb on ice?

It seems unlikely to me. Even if it may be true for a minority of very high level ice-climbers what about the relative novices, like some posting on this thread, who have a go on such venues, enjoy the fun, and then look around for somewhere to use their newly acquired "skills", aren't they as likely as not to just have ago on anything they can see, as long as there aren't too many people about and there's a dusting of snow?

Obviously no one has any statistical evidence to answer this question but anecdotal evidence seems to suggest it could happen - there's even a load of photos which have just been posted on this thread showing people in crampons on dry rock for a start.

PS. to Petarghh and Tyler: our posts crossed, you've covered much the same points as me since I typed this post.
Tyler - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> Dry toolers are against people climbing out of condition climbs, it is these "Punters" that are ruining it for everyone else

I'm not sure how you can make the distinction. I'd have thought you will get at least as many punters coming to the Works as you will committed winter climbers. Why? Because there are lots of people who like to be associated with the more dangerous and heroic sides of climbing (like winter mountaineering) but just aren't cut out for it. You see them jumping off grit aretes onto pads and claiming trad credentials, you see them in the Guides Office in Cham talking big routes but never actually doing them because of 'conditions' and now you will see them at the Works working big number routes convincing themselves they're training for the hard winter routes. Sooner or later they'll go to Scotland and they won't be happy to jump on a sketchy Scottish gully but go for something they know, something steep, and well protected; something they can dog or have done in summer. These people do exist and this will happen, the question is just how many of these types the Works et al will generate and how much damage they do before dry tooling becomes unfashionable (in the way tht head pointing for punters has).
xplorer on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You think way to hard my friend.

Who do you think you are, your a nobody that doesn't climb, your opinion does not count
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Papillon)
>

>
> Given the absurd ignorance your last posts have demonstrated
> of the history which the BMC email (and indeed the thread) suggest lie behind this episode, would a period of silence on your part not perhaps be a good idea?
>

No you're talking rubbish. Dicussions with people who do use these venues are obviously relevant to this thread. After reading about Paddy Caves ascent of 1984 it's obvious to me that there are more direct ways to object to his ascent than attacking another venue he helped develop. As I understand it the Works was developed through consensus, were as Paddy's descision to put 1984 up was clearly his decision alone.
Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> So who IS admiting to having the experience of climbing out of condition routes ? someone is doing it and there is a fair chance that they are the sort of people who will be attracted to dry tooling venues, isn't there ?

Yes but that doesn't mean they do out of condition routes BECAUSE they go dry tooling. They do out of condition routes because that's what they want to do (and they might not see them as out of condition, the line is fairly blurred but that's a separate debate). Some of these people also happen to go dry tooling for training and/or fun. That is a consequence, not the cause.

Sure, there are instances of people doing out of condition routes. These mainly fall into three categories: 1. Selfish people who don't care about ethics and the mountain environment - these people will do it regardless of whether they dry tool. 2. People new to winter climbing who aren't familiar with the ethics - again, they will do it regardless of whether they have tried dry tooling (which in many cases they haven't) but will hopefully soon learn from other winter climbers what is and isn't acceptable. 3. Top level climbers who are pushing the boundaries - they almost certainly dry tool but that isn't why they are doing these routes, it's because they want to push the boundaries (which in many cases are blurred anyway).
Dan Lane - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to xplorer)

You know, I at least respected your opinion, even if I completely disagreed with it....then you went and said this:
>
> It also seemed surprising that someone who claims to go out every weekend should only be capable of a standard of rock and winter climbing which most people attain on their first day outside. Indeed, I wouldn’t have thought it was physically possible to be as useless as that, barring actual disabilities such as missing a limb or the like. So, again, I assumed that part of your profile must be wrong.
>

And now I think you're a dick. It is completely unnecessary to start taking about grades here, don't you think?

Epsilon - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Misha)
> A more sustainable approach to outdoor activities had become a fairly accepted attitude not that long ago, until bolting spread like fire in much of the climbing world - hence Messner's famous "Murdering the Impossible" text - now the swing seems to be going the other way, partly due to a change of attitude towards "junk climbing" but IMO much more to do with commercial interests getting involved, and sizing up nice little earners - how long does a pair of crampons last used on rock rather than ice or snow?

Could the same thing not be said about trad vs. sport though? A full trad rack and a pair of double ropes costs a lot more than a set of quickdraws and a single. Why is it that whenever drytooling is brought up we hear about the nefarious influence of "commercial interests" but not with regards to them pushing everyone to own a rack of each type of cam (brightly anonized to draw one's eye at the shop), nuts of all shapes and sizes, and so on?
goose299 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
Like
Dan Lane - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to goose299)

>
> Just checked your profile. I see you're crap too. Somehow I thought as much. And training to be an instructor. Yippee.
>

Yep, definitely a dick. Though I suppose my opinion means nothing, seeing as i've only been climbing for 13 years, useless, really?

johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Dan Lane:

> It is completely unnecessary to start taking about grades here, don't you think?

You might have noticed that I didn't start until the gentleman I was talking too started talking about age.

Besides, actually I don't. The grades people climb reflect (obviously not in a linear way, but well enough) the amount of effort they put in and the amount of involvement they have with the sport. The opinions of, eg, Dave Birkett count for more than the opinions of xplorer, and rightly so. Anyone who starts saying 'my opinion's as good as yours even though I know nothing about the subject' needs to be called out as a fool.

jcm
Epsilon - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Dan Lane)
>
> [...]
>
> You might have noticed that I didn't start until the gentleman I was talking too started talking about age.
>
> Besides, actually I don't. The grades people climb reflect (obviously not in a linear way, but well enough) the amount of effort they put in and the amount of involvement they have with the sport. The opinions of, eg, Dave Birkett count for more than the opinions of xplorer, and rightly so. Anyone who starts saying 'my opinion's as good as yours even though I know nothing about the subject' needs to be called out as a fool.
>
> jcm

Amusing coming from someone who was subtly slagging off Dave Mac earlier in the thread.
Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Gardening routes and trundling loose blocks also changes the natural looks crags (in fact it has far more visual impact that tool scratches) but I guess you don't object to that because it creates rock routes. Popular routes are getting very polished, which trashes the rock and is at least as visible as tool scratches (think Stoney, Chudleigh, grit classics) but again I guess you don't object to that because it's due to climbing in rock shoes. But sport routes (which the vast majority of climbers accept in designated venues) and dry tooling (which the vast majority of climbers don't care about and accept in designated venues) are a problem in your eyes. A case of double standards?
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Dan Lane)
>
> [...]
>
> The opinions of, eg, Dave Birkett count for more than the opinions of xplorer, and rightly so. Anyone who starts saying 'my opinion's as good as yours

Dave's take on things

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrdI1nUPmM

Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> What sort of evidence did you have in mind? Causal links are awkward things to prove.
> Why don't we do this the other way round? You produce some evidence it ain't so.

I know lots of winter climbers and a few dry toolers so my comments are based on what I see and hear people doing and saying. Whereas you've admitted that you've never really winter climbed so I assume you don't know that many winter climbers and aren't in turn with the ethics out there on the crags. When was the last time you discussed mixed climbing or dry tooling down the pub or at a crag with people who actually do it? Do you actually know anyone who has said 'I've been dry tooling so now I'm going to do mixed route with no snow, ice or frozen turf on them'? A good pronciple to follow is 'speak not of what you know not'. Otherwise you run the risk of coming across as a fool.
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> Yes but that doesn't mean they do out of condition routes BECAUSE they go dry tooling.

No, but encouraging (even glamourising through sponsorship) dry tooling for the sake of dry tooling substantially increases the pool of climbers capable of climbing dry rock with ice tools (ie dry tooling at a different venue). Therefore the presence of dedicated dry tooling venues increases the probability of people dry tooling their way up rock routes.

This, I think, is the point that the Lakedistrict Peoples Front is trying to make.
goose299 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:
I'm pretty sure that was done with tongue firmly in cheek.
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to goose299: I'm pretty sure too.
Epsilon - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Misha)
>
> [...]
>
> No, but encouraging (even glamourising through sponsorship) dry tooling for the sake of dry tooling substantially increases the pool of climbers capable of climbing dry rock with ice tools (ie dry tooling at a different venue). Therefore the presence of dedicated dry tooling venues increases the probability of people dry tooling their way up rock routes.
>
> This, I think, is the point that the Lakedistrict Peoples Front is trying to make.

And yet, again, this doesn't happen virtually anywhere that drytooling is relatively popular/established. Why are we supposed to believe that Brits are somehow less capable of distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable venues for it than Europeans, Canadians, or Americans?

People have been M-climbing at Vail and Ouray for nearly 20 years, but no one shows up at Rifle in the summer to drytool a sport route.
Lew13 - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

Like.
Simon Caldwell - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> Why are we supposed to believe that Brits are somehow less capable of distinguishing between acceptable and unacceptable venues for it than Europeans

You mean like this?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=198794
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> (In reply to GrahamD)


> People have been M-climbing at Vail and Ouray for nearly 20 years, but no one shows up at Rifle in the summer to drytool a sport route.

They are lucky to have an abundance of suitable venues in N.America. All our suitable venues are in mainland Europe - they are NOT in the Lake District

Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD: The works is a suitable venue, that is beyond doubt.
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

That isn't the debate, is it ? if people thought it was isolated to the works with no possible impact elswhere there wouldn't be so much of an issue.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Toreador:

Fantastic picture!

jcm
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

Well it is isolated to the works, show me examples of people dry tooling elsewhere ? aside from a few misguided winter ascents and millstone - which as has already been said can be expected as all forms of climbing creates controversy, these are just examples of that.

Anyway, reports are the works is largely fixed now with the gear recovered. Im going to be back down there dry tooling, anyone is welcome to pop down and have a look at the style of climbing and decided for themselves.
Epsilon - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Epsilon)
> [...]
>
> You mean like this?
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=198794

So the best example you can find is one picture from some obscure crag in Spain? Is it even definitely the case that drytooling there is considered unacceptable? There are some pissy little crags around where both sport climbing and drytooling take place and no one cares that much (mostly because they aren't very good/popular).
Epsilon - on 01 May 2013
A tangential but related topic: if Scottish winter grades implicitly require "proper winter conditions" (white appearance, hoared up rock, etc.), should British climbers refrain from using those grades on routes climbed elsewhere that are clearly not in that type of condition (and are not expected to be):

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web13s/newswire-new-route-on-aiguille-du-midi

Seems to send a pretty conflicting message about what "Scottish winter climbing" is when its grading system is applied to M-style routes in the Alps (also, not having a go at the two climbers in question, looks like they did a lovely new mixed route, just using it as a recent example of a larger point).
Mike Stretford - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> (In reply to Toreador)
> [...]
>
> So the best example you can find is one picture from some obscure crag in Spain? Is it even definitely the case that drytooling there is considered unacceptable? There are some pissy little crags around where both sport climbing and drytooling take place and no one cares that much (mostly because they aren't very good/popular).

Maybe I have wierd taste but that crag looks pretty good to me.
Epsilon - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Epsilon)
> [...]
>
> Maybe I have wierd taste but that crag looks pretty good to me.

By Spanish standards though? It's not like it's a picture of someone drytooling at Santa Linya.
Bruce Hooker - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Epsilon:

Nuts don't cost much if you make them yourself and quick-draws require double the expenditure on crabs, so I don't agree that cost is a problem - compare it to travel costs, or the unavoidable cost of ropes and so on and it's minor. On the other hand I don't know when you last bought pair of crampons or ice axes but they really aren't cheap.

I think it's a bit like tea, once Twinings think they are selling as much as they can to put into teapots someone in the office started looking around for some other way of selling the stuff and came up with "iced tea". For ice gear it's much the same, if there's a need all well and good, if not they can use their promotion budget to encourage a new market - dry tooling, and hey presto sales boom!

Ice screws don't work though, even for the thickest dry tool, but I'm sure they'll come up with something, and when they do the mugs will roll up with pound notes in their mitts :-)

I don't really blame the salesmen, their job is to sell and a trying job it is, but I don't think we are all obliged to follow each daft fad that comes along.
Ramblin dave - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Epsilon)
>
> Nuts don't cost much if you make them yourself and quick-draws require double the expenditure on crabs, so I don't agree that cost is a problem - compare it to travel costs, or the unavoidable cost of ropes and so on and it's minor. On the other hand I don't know when you last bought pair of crampons or ice axes but they really aren't cheap.

I think the point he's making is that if climbing fashion was really all about gear companies trying to push more kit then trad would be the coolest thing on the block (possibly after big-wall aid) and sport and bouldering would be off the radar - there's only so many times you can sell the same person a set of quickdraws or an overpriced beanie, but there's always "a new revolution in cam design".
Bruce Hooker - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> A case of double standards?

Unless you can tell me how we can climb without touching the rock then I'd say smooth rock shoes are the nearest we can get to minimum wear without stopping climbing altogether. There is still some wear but cleaning the soles before climbing is the best we can do, so I don't agree that it is a case of double standards.

Minimising things which do pollute, deface, damage, like chalk, nailed boots (not me BTW, not that old), pitonning, drilling, using winter tools on rock and so on can only reduce wear, they won't avoid it... This applies to popular areas, eventually people will just have to go further afield to find decent rock, there's plenty in France in the pre-Alps in reserve for centuries to come but I still think it makes sense to care for existing rock in Britain as much as is reasonable though.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Yeah, but you need to broaden the participation base, don't you? That's why gear companies love new forms of climbing, especially those which require little or no commitment to get involved in.

jcm
Bruce Hooker - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
>
> Yeah, but you need to broaden the participation base, don't you? That's why gear companies love new forms of climbing, especially those which require little or no commitment to get involved in.

This remark tempted me to add "especially for those with very little between the ears" but then I thought that this might bring down the tone of the thread to "the lacking balls" level so I thought better of it.

Big Lee - on 01 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

It would have been nice if everybody had voiced an opinion that this sort of vandalism was unacceptable (as is any sort of vandalism). I don't particularly like climbers who ignore bird bans but it doesn't give me the right to pop down Swanage one night and vandalise all the abseil stakes next time I see a banned route logged does it??

What's more, the link that more people dry tooling will lead to more people climbing out of condition winter routes is plucked from the sky. I can think of plenty of people that dry tool who actually have little interest in Scottish climbing (Ramon Marin, Neil Gresham, Rob Gibson to name a few off my head). For those that both dry tool AND winter climb, well maybe they are just very keen?? It doesn't mean that their ethical code has gone wayward just because they went to a dry-tooling venue one day. Bare in mind that indoor training facilities are still limited for dry tooling/general winter training so training venues such an the Works provide a worthwhile training substitute.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Big Lee:

I can think of plenty of people that dry tool who actually have little interest in Scottish climbing (....Neil Gresham....to name a few off my head).

You mean this Neil Gresham, right?

http://www.rockfax.com/climbing-guides/books/winter-climbing-2009/

http://www.planetfear.com/news/Neil_Gresham_pushes_it_on_Scottish_ice_249.html

jcm
Big Lee - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Most of his climbing has been M and WI type routes:

http://www.neilgresham.com/selection-of-finest-climbs.php

But feel free to keep Googling if keen to prove me wrong. I don't really care.
Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
> [...]
>
> I don't ice climb so I can only go off what I'm told. In this case it's your word against that of people I know and have climed with, who tell me these venues are useful training for ice climbing.

From personal experience, yes they are helpful for all forms of winter climbing, including ice climbing. Strength, fitness, precision, balance are all developed through DT and are required for ice. Graham's post is another example of something rashly said by someone who unfortunately does not know what they are talking about. That's not meant to be offensive, just a statement of fact.
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

I'm not sure what you can disagree with in my post: I've said dry tooling is of benefit to ice climbing ability (for all the good reasons you describe) but the biggest benefit, it shouldn't come as any surprise to learn, is to dry tooling ability.
GrahamD - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> Well it is isolated to the works, show me examples of people dry tooling elsewhere ?

Name any high up summer route in the Lakes and I'll show you the damage caused by it being climbed effectively as a rock route in crampons (AKA dry tooling). The level of damage has increased drastically in the last few years (since the notion that the Lakes is a reliable winter climbing venue became common). The fact is that there is an increasing number of keen young (usually) climbers with brand new shiny ice tools that are going to use them.

Venues like the Works just encourage more people into wanting to swing ice tools around in the Lakes.
CurlyStevo - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
This winter was pretty epic in the Lakes though wasn't it. Lots of the major gullies must have been complete for the majority of the mid winter to mid spring!
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD: There is a long standing tradition of winter climbing in the Lakes. with routes climbed by big names. are you telling me that they were all dry tooled?

the fact remains, all climbing damages rock.

The expansion force of a cam can pull rock apart damaging crags, the cleaning of new lines exposes the rock to new weathering, just a climber on a face can pull blocks off (these blocks are frozen in place in winter reducing that risk)

So, kindly stop trad climbing and damaging these classic routes with your cams, and potential to remove loose blocks.

These arent my views, im just making a point by the way, i'm going to continue trad and winter climbing.
Aly - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> Well it is isolated to the works, show me examples of people dry tooling elsewhere ? aside from a few misguided winter ascents and millstone

Really!?! It has occured on stacks of roadside crags and boulders all over the UK, there's a whole thread somewhere on UKB if you want a taster.

As for mountain routes some of the worst damage I've seen on a rock route, ever, was on The Pin on the Shelterstone. A long E2 summer route, with an awkward access and escape in the Loch Avon basin so not exacly likely to have been climbed by more than a handful of people. Anyway I had the misfortune of abseiling down it after doing a summer route and it looks hideous - enough to have put me off from ever climbing it.

There was a comment above about polish being visually far worse than scratch marks yet I struggle to tell if holds are polished, wet or neither at a distance of 3 feet at venues such as the Tor or Stoney, whilst I can tell that magic crack is f*cked by looking at it from the ground which is 3 pitches away.
Petarghh - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Aly:
> (In reply to Petarghh)
> [...]
>
> whilst I can tell that magic crack is f*cked by looking at it from the ground which is 3 pitches away.


And you can categorically say it is from people climbing it out of condition ?
Michael Gordon - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Aly:
> (In reply to Petarghh)
> [...]
>
> As for mountain routes some of the worst damage I've seen on a rock route, ever, was on The Pin on the Shelterstone. A long E2 summer route, with an awkward access and escape in the Loch Avon basin so not exacly likely to have been climbed by more than a handful of people. Anyway I had the misfortune of abseiling down it after doing a summer route and it looks hideous - enough to have put me off from ever climbing it.
>

Crampon damage? That's interesting since it has never had a successful winter ascent. When were you there?
Goucho on 01 May 2013
In reply to Misha:
> (In reply to GrahamD)

3. Top level climbers who are pushing the boundaries - they almost certainly dry tool but that isn't why they are doing these routes, it's because they want to push the boundaries (which in many cases are blurred anyway).

This is one of the biggest problems.

Top level climbers either intentionally or not, create a precedent, which the masses aspire to - especially the 'Noddy Wanabee's'.

They haven't the experience to differentiate between a cutting edge mixed ascent (probably because it's usually dry tooling wrapped up in self justified bollocks, so in fact quite understandable) and a classic V Diff.

And this has always been the case - the masses emulate the leading climbers in their own (often misguided) way.

In the 70's John Allen used to climb in jeans rolled up to the knee - soon all the young wanabees at Stanage were wearing jeans rolled up to the knee.

Livesey and Big Ron wore Polar Pants - soon all the youngsters were wearing Polar Pants.

The leading climbers used chalk - of course all the young wanabees started using it, which is why we now see pillocks using buckets of it on Diffs when the temperature is barely 3 degrees C.

Ben Moon grew dreadlocks - yep, soon there were dozens of young wanabees wearing dreadlocks.

Etc, Etc Etc.

So it's hardly surprising to see this generation of wanabees swinging their Nomics at a completely bare classic V Diff, and deluding themselves that they are Greg Boswell on a major new 'mixed' (I struggle to keep a straight face when I see the routes that 'mixed' is applied to these days) route.

And whilst I don't condone the actions of 'The Peoples Liberation Front of Grasmere', it is understandable the folk are beginning to get a bit pissed of with the whole concept of dry tooling in this country.

Hammy - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

Nicely put Goucho.

Maybe I should upload some photos of me in rolled up jeans and polar pants, however I never quite made the dreadlocks...

In my youth I fitted perfectly into the picture painted by Groucho...

The top level climbers do indeed influence the development of our beautiful sport...please use your talents wisely.
jamiefoxen - on 01 May 2013
This action seems, although less extreme, similar to the fight on Everest. There is an underlying problem that a few bad apples release in a violent way on mostly innocent individuals.....
Aly - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon: Just checked - it was August 2009 so could have been any time before that. Definitely crampon scratches all over slabby edges.



IRT Petarghh: Of course not, but that's not got anything to do with the point the other chap was making.
Rob Parsons on 01 May 2013
In reply to Papillon:

> .... As I understand it the Works was developed through consensus ...

That claim's been made a couple of times already in this thread. But let's be quite clear: it isn't the case. And those behind the development of The Works also accept that fact. (Don't take that claim from me: have a look at their website.)

So there are serious objections here; and a serious debate to be had.




Goucho on 01 May 2013
In reply to Hammy: I didn't go as far as the rolled up jeans, but I admit, I did eventually end up in Polar Pants :-)
Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> Or do you maintain (genuine question) that people training on overhanging rock on chipped holds and fixed protection doing it solely to improve their ability to climb on ice?

No, it's obviously very useful for mixed climbing as well, that is on rock covered in snow and rime ice etc. That's part of the reason people do it.

> what about the relative novices, like some posting on this thread, who have a go on such venues, enjoy the fun, and then look around for somewhere to use their newly acquired "skills", aren't they as likely as not to just have ago on anything they can see, as long as there aren't too many people about and there's a dusting of snow?

No, because most winter climbers know what the ethics are and stick to them. For a start, winter novices tend to start out on grade I - III snow and ice routes. I don't know anyone who started out dry tooling. Getting up a D5 (about as easy as DT gets) is physically a lot harder than the average IV. That's one of the reasons a lot of winter climbers don't even go tooling or give it a go and don't continue. Another reason is a lot of people prefer snow and ice. I don't actually know any novices who prefer mixed. Also, winter climbing is fairly serious so novices tend to go out with more experienced winter climbers or at least seek guidance. That way the ethical rules get passed on, along with technical advice.

This is based on winter climbers I know, including newcomers, and I know a fair few. I suspect your arguments are largely based on conjecture, same as JCM's. You need to have an understanding of the winter climbing scene and the average winter climber's attitude. It is not what you make it out to be.

Misha - on 01 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Dan Lane)
> Anyone who starts saying 'my opinion's as good as yours even though I know nothing about the subject' needs to be called out as a fool.

I agree. Do you have a mirror to hand?

Tom V - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

Regarding your assertion that all climbing damages rock:

I work with stone all the time, and I can tell you from experience that

1) using bare or gloved hands and
2) using tools, however lightly,

are massively different in the effect they have on the medium at the end of each working day.
Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Misha)
>
> I'm not sure what you can disagree with in my post: I've said dry tooling is of benefit to ice climbing ability (for all the good reasons you describe) but the biggest benefit, it shouldn't come as any surprise to learn, is to dry tooling ability.

I repeat: with respect, you really don't know what you're talking about. I assume you've never tried dry tooling. If your profile is 'up to date', you've never winter climbed at a level where dry tooling training would be beneficial (I'd say it starts being useful, though not essential, from solid V). So, with respect, how would you know what dry tooling is useful for? I'm hardly a great winter climber (my hardest leads so far have been solid VI on both ice and mixed) but I've felt the benefit of a bit of dry tooling training when doing those routes. It's like sport and trad, if you redpoint 7a+ you develop the fitness, technique and confidence for E3 5c (again in my humble experience). The skills and movements required for dry tooling aren't as different as you might think to those required for ice and mixed climbing (and by that I mean in condition mixed climbing!).
Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

That's why educating people about the ethics is important. Perhaps the one good thing to come out of this incident is people will think harder before doing out of condition routes. The longer you have to wait for a route to come in, the sweeter the taste of success.
Ramblin dave - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:
That's well put, but it's essentially an argument that the existence of places like The Works isn't a major factor in people scratching up out of condition routes! You're saying that it's to do with seeing top climbers putting up hard routes in questionable nick out in the mountains, which they would presumably do, albeit on slightly less hard routes, whether The Works existed or not.
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Rob Parsons:

The Climbing comunity has shown that its not able to engage in valid sensible debate. Just look at what happend the other day and look at this thread.

What surprises me (doesn't surprise me) is that most of the comments are from middle aged men. It seem to me that you have a "chip" on your shoulder.

Your going to see more dry tooling in the near future, it's inevitable.
Michael Gordon - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

To be fair I think many would say dry tooling isn't a lot of help training-wise below VII when routes get steeper and you have to start pulling up on your arms a bit more.
Michael Gordon - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

and the hooks start to get a bit thinner.
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Complete and utter nonsense
Tom V - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Rob Parsons)
>
> The Climbing comunity has shown that its not able to engage in valid sensible debate.
>
> What surprises me (doesn't surprise me) is that most of the comments are from middle aged men.

I'm ashamed to concede that it was a middle aged man who threatened to bring his shotgun to the debate.

Jamie B - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> Complete and utter nonsense

Why? Please explain how DT training can help you bridge the gap between III and IV? I climb V,6 on a good day and have never found any major value in it.

ads.ukclimbing.com
In reply to xplorer:

> Complete and utter nonsense

Why? Is your profile up to date? Are you saying you need to go dry-tooling in order to climb grade IIIs?
jkarran - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> (In reply to Aly)
> Crampon damage? That's interesting since it has never had a successful winter ascent. When were you there?

He's right, it was properly battered and scratched up back in 09
jk
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

What's my profile grades got to do with it?

Any type of strength and endurance training helps all types of climbing, but of course you already knew that. Your just being awkward.

:-)
Bruce Hooker - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> This is based on winter climbers I know, including newcomers, and I know a fair few. I suspect your arguments are largely based on conjecture,

No it isn't, I've had my day, you seem to forget that older people were as young as you once :-)

> No, it's obviously very useful for mixed climbing as well, that is on rock covered in snow and rime ice etc

Are you sure that's what "mixed" climbing is? Sounds a bit like conjecture to me!

You really should stop assuming others are ignorant, even JCM is winding you all up a bit and you don't even realise it... statements like "Also, winter climbing is fairly serious so novices tend to go out with more experienced winter climbers or at least seek guidance." clearly indicate the sort of people you hang out with - many go off to Scotland with little experience and wing it - it seems hard to see why even the daftest wannabee would train on overhanging dry-tooling to attempt a grade 1 gully too.
GrahamD - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> So, with respect, how would you know what dry tooling is useful for?

I said its good for training for ice and especially good for training for dry tooling.

With respect, stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and try and refute either one of those statements.
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

It's doesn't matter what grade you climb at, of course it's going to help with any type of climbing at any grade.

You don't like dry tooling, and I can understand that, but what are you seriously going to do about it? Your a small band of ignorant, arrogant climbers. Your the minority.
GrahamD - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Petarghh:

> the fact remains, all climbing damages rock.

And some forms of climbing damage rock orders of magnitude more than others. Soft rubber unsurprisingly causes considerably less damage than steel spikes.


> So, kindly stop trad climbing and damaging these classic routes with your cams, and potential to remove loose blocks.

You really didn't think before posting that did you ? Presumably you aren't advocating bolting mountain routes so cams are a form of protection used both in summer and winter. They do not put expansion force on the rock except in the unlikely and unfortunate event of a fall.


Jamie B - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> It's doesn't matter what grade you climb at, of course it's going to help with any type of climbing at any grade.

Cling to that belief if you like, but most middle-grade climbers would disagree with you. What tends to get people up routes between IV and VI is experience, aerobic fitness and psyche.

> You don't like dry tooling, and I can understand that, but what are you seriously going to do about it? Your a small band of ignorant, arrogant climbers. Your the minority.

Please do your research before you start throwing insults around. I'm not a dinosaur (despite being middle-aged). I support dry-tooling and the development of appropriate venues. I've dabbled with DT training with myself and with clients, have even competed (badly) in a round of the STS and think I have pretty good knowledge of where it fits into the training jigsaw. I see value in it and if I'm ever going to get onto a tech 7 I'll probably have to do more. It has definitely been a driver for a lot more big numbers in recent years.

You do like to polarise these discussions into us/them face-offs, which is a bit tiring to be honest. There are lots of shades of grey in this discussion, a bit like a partially-rimed cliff. Please let's keep this civil, we all want the same thing - maximum climbing opportunity and freedom to explore different styles without treading on toes.

In reply to xplorer:

> Any type of strength and endurance training helps all types of climbing, but of course you already knew that. Your just being awkward.

No I'm not, I don't think an averagely fit person has to do any type of special climbing training to climb III. In fact for people climbing Scottish III they'd probably get far more useful exercise and skills development going for a long hill walk in cloudy weather where they are forced to do their navigation well.

You said Michael's point that DT probably doesn't do much to help below VII was complete nonsense - so I wonder why you say this? If you were reasonably new to winter climbing but after doing lots of DT you had quickly gone on to lead mixed V,6s or VI,7s - then I think that would be interesting evidence. That's why I asked if your profile is up to date because currently it says you've done III.
paul__in_sheffield - on 02 May 2013

>
> You really didn't think before posting that did you ? Presumably you aren't advocating bolting mountain routes so cams are a form of protection used both in summer and winter. They do not put expansion force on the rock except in the unlikely and unfortunate event of a fall.

Hi there, it's off-topic, but cams do damage some popular routes, scouring out cracks. This is particularly prevalent on some easier routes which see a lot of resting on gear. Have a look at the damage done to Topsail at Birchens Edge. The sustainability of climbing is an issue across all the games climbers play.
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

I didn't call you middle aged, and didnt insult you!
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

What are you on about, you have started this stupid argument in your own head.

By the way I don't care about yours or my grades.

If all else fails bring up grades, you certainly don't surprise me toby
Jamie B - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> I didn't call you middle aged, and didnt insult you!

"Your a small band of ignorant, arrogant climbers"

I took that as an insult. Maybe I was over-sensitive?
Jamie B - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> If all else fails bring up grades, you certainly don't surprise me toby

Toby has explained at length why he thinks that grades are relevant. He has not been confrontational about this, unlike yourself. He's looking for a discussion, you're looking for an argument, it seems.

In reply to xplorer:

> What are you on about,

Why did you say what Michael said was "Complete and utter nonsense"?

It's not that complicated a question.
Enty - on 02 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

We know that badly placed cams and nuts can damage rock - no shit Sherlock! But to compare this with the damaged caused by ice axes and crampons. WTF ???
Anyone else feel that their intelligence is being insulted?

E
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

I think one of the major problems dry tooling has is that it tends to throw up complete and utter twerps like xplorer, Scott Muir, the Millstone Idiot (Callum, was it? Is xplorer him under another name, by any chance?) and the Brean Down Idiot. What one might call the RedBullWanker tendency that it has.



jcm
Jamie B - on 02 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> I think one of the major problems dry tooling has is that it tends to throw up complete and utter twerps like xplorer, Scott Muir, the Millstone Idiot (Callum, was it? Is xplorer him under another name, by any chance?) and the Brean Down Idiot. What one might call the RedBullWanker tendency

I agree to a point, a combination of somewhat marginalised status and the way it lets you hang upside down with big weapons in your hands does seem to attract quite a few people who are more interested in making an attitudinal statement than repeating Sioux Wall (or similar)

I think at one time I largely wrote it off as such, wrongly as it turned out. You only need to look at the numbers of big numbers getting sent and the number of new players in those grades to see that there is a correlation. And mid-grade climbers like me can get something out of it too. But in the lower grades it's irrelevant.

Scott Muir ruffled a lot of feathers, had a fairly direct and combative way of making his point, and may have exploited his commercial ties to Red Bull, etc. But I have no doubt that he was ahead of his time in promoting sport mixed and dry-tooling in this country, and that the gains in trad performance that he predicted have arrived.

Calum Nicol was/is a different beast altogether. He did what misguided numpties have done for years and took tools to an outcrop. The only thing that was different is that he made no attempt to be covert, and did it in an era where it could be guaranteed to be all over digital media within hours. He bought into that same teenaged punkishness and spirit of rebellion to try to justify it, but if it was meant as a rallying-call he failed. He was very quickly shown to be in a minority of one, so I wouldn't cite him as an example of very much. He's probably now profoundly embarrassed by the incident.

Haven't heard about the Brean Down idiot (please enlighten), and I'd best not try to analyse Xplorer just now, he seems a bit touchy..
HeMa on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
>
> Any type of strength and endurance training helps all types of climbing, but of course you already knew that. Your just being awkward.

Right on brother...

This:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/f74dc30ccd57d47a43666d5b79c30dc4/tumblr_mgznokvuqo1s1mg3vo1_500.jpg

Is extremely helpfull for this kind of climbing:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vtIH-g8wAAM/TyKI-pbInyI/AAAAAAAABCs/qmqqVKfDg2Y/s1600/Alpine+face+snow+fie...

Yessirree...








Me thinks running in a really moist bog for a few hours would be more suited for the latter.
GrahamD - on 02 May 2013
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> Hi there, it's off-topic, but cams do damage some popular routes,

Indeed - but less of an issue in Lakes ! The point was more about the implication that cam damge (and especially due to expansion) was somehow the preserve of rock climbers whereas, of course, everyone who climbs a route whether in winter conditions, dry tooling or rock climbing uses the same or similar modes of protection.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Ramblin dave - on 02 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
That's not true - winter climbers sometimes use pegs as well!

Oh, hang on...

In any case, I think we're sort of getting blurry here as to whether people think that mixed climbing as a whole is something that needs to be discouraged or just dry tooling (at specific venues where it doesn't directly affect any other climbing) as training for mixed climbing.

The former is arguably a more consistent position, but also seems rather quixotic at this stage...
Simon Caldwell - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> So the best example you can find is one picture from some obscure crag in Spain?

It's the only example I can find, because it's the only time I've seen someone dry tooling at any crag anywhere. It's actually an excellent crag, mainly for low grade routes, and is very popular.

The toolers said that it was accepted practice, but of course they'd say that even if it weren't true.
Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> To be fair I think many would say dry tooling isn't a lot of help training-wise below VII when routes get steeper and you have to start pulling up on your arms a bit more.

Obviously it becomes increasingly useful as you work up through the grades but personally I've found it useful for Vs and VIs as well. Not essential, but useful - a bit of extra strenth, fitness and precision is no bad thing to have up your sleeve!
dunc56 - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Epsilon:
> (In reply to Toreador)
> [...]
>
> So the best example you can find is one picture from some obscure crag in Spain? Is it even definitely the case that drytooling there is considered unacceptable? There are some pissy little crags around where both sport climbing and drytooling take place and no one cares that much (mostly because they aren't very good/popular).

Time to bring this one out.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59279
Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> Any type of strength and endurance training helps all types of climbing, but of course you already knew that.

Yes but strength isn't that important for easier stuff. Technique, experience and a good head are more important. The harder the route, the more important the physical aspects become, though technique, experience and a good head are still very important as well! DT training would help someone to go from III to VI but it isn't essential and is certainly isn't the only or even the main thing that's required. But yes, it would help.
Jamie B - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> we're sort of getting blurry here as to whether people think that mixed climbing as a whole is something that needs to be discouraged or just dry tooling
> The former is arguably a more consistent position, but also seems rather quixotic at this stage...

It's beyond quixotic, snowed-up rock climbing has about sixty years (possibly more) of tradition and by no stretch of anyone's imaginations are its adherents going to change their game.

Some will climb under sketchy light cover, others will wait until the crag is plastered. It has always been thus. Neither condition will make any difference to the "damage" incurred, so this argument needs to be thrown away as irrelevant.

The issue of whether a crag is white or not is not an easily delineated one, and everyone draws their own line. I propose that we continue to take the piss out of those who draw it badly, but stop wittering on about damage. There is to my mind far more damage done by climbing on unfrozen turf.

Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> No it isn't, I've had my day, you seem to forget that older people were as young as you once :-)

Sure but what I was getting at is we seem to have different ideas about the mindset of the average winter climber. My idea is based on people I know. Perhaps your idea is based on some other people that you know.

> Are you sure that's what "mixed" climbing is? Sounds a bit like conjecture to me!

Erm, mixed climbing is climbing on rock covered in snow, rime ice, bits of snow and water ice, frozen turf, that sort of stuff... Anything that isn't pure snow and ice but is 'wintery' i.e. white (to some extent at least) and froze. What's your definition? Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here.

> "Also, winter climbing is fairly serious so novices tend to go out with more experienced winter climbers or at least seek guidance." clearly indicate the sort of people you hang out with - many go off to Scotland with little experience and wing it - it seems hard to see why even the daftest wannabee would train on overhanging dry-tooling to attempt a grade 1 gully too.

Yes, that's the sort of people I hang out with but I agree that there will be otherse who will go with little experience and wing it and there's nothing wrong with that. What does not follow is that they will be jumping on out of condition rock routes. Some might be but will soon learn the error of their ways one way or another. Most 'novices' by definition don't climb particularly hard so won't be going on the mixed/rock routes anyway and will opt for classic gullies and easier ice routes. As I've said, most 'novices' don't go dry tooling either. Again, it could be that you know some that do, I'm just basing this on the people I know.
Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> I said its good for training for ice and especially good for training for dry tooling.

I agree with both parts of this statement but what's missing is that it's great training for mixed climbing as well.
Goucho on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer: In all honesty, you need to go away, and then come back when you've got some hair on your balls.

Trust me, someone with your obvious lack of experience and grades, should keep his head below the parapet - because what a climber has done, does mean the difference between a credible opinion backed up with experience, and a wanker!
Epsilon - on 02 May 2013
In reply to dunc56:
> (In reply to Epsilon)
> [...]
>
> Time to bring this one out.
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59279

I think you missed the context of what was being discussed.
Jimbo W on 02 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I have to say that you're persuading me somewhat on this. I guess for me, it is so difficult to hold on fast to a consistent ethic when the whole business of climbing has artifice at its core. Its not a game with defined rules, but despite what appears to me a cultural unwritten ethic, the business has always had an anarchic historical tendency in its pioneers. But doesn't the expansion of climbing walls cause similar problems that would concern you? Does the ethical pathway always have to be "improving"? Or are step downs okay in the pursuit of new difficulty, or new style and adventure, e.g. in headpointing?
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

Get off your high horse, that again is complete utter non sense.

So an opinion isn't valid if you haven't been climbing ten years and in the e's.

That's just complete arrogance and ignorance. Climbing in general isn't hard to get your around. Stop pretending your a hero, your only a climber for Christ sake.
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

What makes you believe your question to me is going to get answered, very naive
Goucho on 02 May 2013
In reply to Jimbo W:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
Does the ethical pathway always have to be "improving"? Or are step downs okay in the pursuit of new difficulty, or new style and adventure, e.g. in headpointing?

The reality is, that all these new developments/styles/ethics/approaches - which result in important advancements at the top end - when applied to the vast majority of climbers, deliver nothing more impressive than standards which were reached without them 40 years ago.

In other words, when practised by the climbing mainstream, it's nothing more than using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

As proved by the fact that the average grade climbed today, is no higher than it was 40 years ago.

Doesn't that tell us something?

xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

"Trust me, someone with your obvious lack of experience and grades, should keep his head below the parapet - because what a climber has done, does mean the difference between a credible opinion backed up with experience, and a wanker"


Great stuff, how old are you? 12?
Ramblin dave - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Jimbo W:
I'm not really convinced that the existence of dry tooling venues is a cause of increased popularity of winter climbing, to be honest. They seem to have a fairly limited appeal, mainly to experienced, middling to hard winter climbers, rather than being a mass point-of-entry to mixed climbing in the way that indoor climbing walls are a mass point-of-entry to outdoor climbing.

And while it's arguably the case that people like Grivel and Petzl are heavily promoting winter climbing to sell punters loads of kit, they're mostly doing it using pictures of people on awesome alpine walls or huge icefalls in bright sun rather than tooling around in a dingy quarry.

Blaming The Works for people climbing out of condition rock feels a bit like blaming Beastmaker for controversial retrobolting...
Goucho on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Goucho)
>
Climbing in general isn't hard to get your around.

Well it certainly seems to be rather challenging for you.

Stop pretending your a hero, your only a climber for Christ sake.

I didn't, but the reality is, some opinions have more credibility than others.



xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:


The reality is, that all these new developments/styles/ethics/approaches - which result in important advancements at the top end - when applied to the vast majority of climbers, deliver nothing more impressive than standards which were reached without them 40 years ago.

In other words, when practised by the climbing mainstream, it's nothing more than using a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

As proved by the fact that the average grade climbed today, is no higher than it was 40 years ago.

Doesn't that tell us something?

Yes but the standard of climbing at the top end today smashes what was happening 40 years ago.

You anti dry toolers are desperate now, it's either ethics, damage, or back in the day
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

Why is it more challenging for me, your just being childish because your anti dry tooling argument is pathetic, you don't even know why you don't like it
johncoxmysteriously - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

You *are* Calum, aren't you?

I must say, listening to you, I can certainly why the phantom chopper decided to do what he did.

jcm
TRip - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Goucho)
>
> Why is it more challenging for me

God knows, but it must be because you're not very good at it.
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yea if all else fails, call me a dry tooler.

Never dry tooled in my life. I just believe what happened at the works was completely out of order. You spouting your anti dry tooling crap, doesn't help anyone.

Do you agree what happened was out of order?
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to TRip:

How do you know? Who are you sorry?
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to TRip:

Hahahaha just checked your profile, your hardly pro are you. Who sponsors you "CAMP"
In reply to xplorer:

> What makes you believe your question to me is going to get answered, very naive

It would seem so, but what an odd response?! I was just trying to understand what you were saying but am left feeling you don't understand what you are saying. Fair enough. I'm sure we've all got other things to be going on with.
John Rushby - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:

You don't like dry tooling, and I can understand that, but what are you seriously going to do about it? Your a small band of ignorant, arrogant clmbers. Your the minority.


Nothing like winning hears and minds.


Climbing is like sex, the young think they invented it but crumbling middle age farts and generations before them seem pretty adept at it.


xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to John Rushby:

There's definitely something in this middle age subject
HeMa on 02 May 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> Blaming The Works for people climbing out of condition rock feels a bit like blaming Beastmaker for controversial retrobolting...


Don't get me started on Beastmaker... training is a darn gateway drug to retrobolting and whotnot in general.
In reply to xplorer:

> Hahahaha just checked your profile, your hardly pro are you. Who sponsors you "CAMP"

Arggghhhh, it's "you're", the contraction of "you are" not the possessive "your"! http://bit.ly/SW5Sna

Anyway, what's wrong with being sponsored by CAMP? They make good gear. You are accusing others of being childish, so what's with the middle school level homophobia?
xplorer on 02 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Ah, grammar, again you don't surprise me Toby.

And i don't know what you mean about camp, who's the homophobe now toby
DeanD - on 02 May 2013
This thread seems to of taken a turn for the worst.
I fully understand why people are against drytooling, I am strongly for it but in the right circumstances and places like the works.
All this effort that's been put into this thread could be used to establish clear guidance and locations for more legitimate drytooling venues so that people can go to these venues and not the existing tradition crags.
Dry tooling isn't going anywhere so if we can all work together to resolve the issue rather than against, then all parties concerned can be happy and stop sniping at each other, it would be a lot better for all of us.
GrahamD - on 02 May 2013
In reply to DeanD:

> All this effort that's been put into this thread could be used to establish clear guidance and locations for more legitimate drytooling venues so that people can go to these venues and not the existing tradition crags.

The fact that it ISN'T existing traditional crags is pretty clear already, isn't it ?
DeanD - on 02 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
Yea. It's no good for anything but drytooling.
In reply to xplorer:

> And i don't know what you mean about camp, who's the homophobe now toby

I suppose I shouldn't be "naive" again to expect you to explain what on earth you were going on about then?
John Rushby - on 02 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

Leave it, he's pulling your allcord


Michael Gordon - on 02 May 2013
In reply to HeMa:
> (In reply to xplorer)
> [...]
>
> Right on brother...
>
> This:
> http://25.media.tumblr.com/f74dc30ccd57d47a43666d5b79c30dc4/tumblr_mgznokvuqo1s1mg3vo1_500.jpg
>
> Is extremely helpfull for this kind of climbing:
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vtIH-g8wAAM/TyKI-pbInyI/AAAAAAAABCs/qmqqVKfDg2Y/s1600/Alpine+face+snow+fie...
>
> Yessirree...
>

Hilarious!
Misha - on 02 May 2013
In reply to xplorer:
I'm on the same side of the debate but I do think you're being unreasonable now and not adding constructively to the argument. Not that there is anything left to add...
Bruce Hooker - on 02 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> Erm, mixed climbing is climbing on rock covered in snow, rime ice, bits of snow and water ice, frozen turf, that sort of stuff... Anything that isn't pure snow and ice but is 'wintery' i.e. white (to some extent at least) and froze. What's your definition? Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here.

I'm not sure it's relevant to the debate, nor what the debate is anymore, but I think of mixed climbing as not just something you head out to do but the sort of conditions you meet on a mountain. Some is mostly rock, some is mostly snow or ice and between the two it's mixed. It's also what you get when you are on rock and snow starts or when you wake up from a bivvy and find everything frozen. Climbing mixed usually requires crampons as vibrams aren't much good on icy rock and no one uses nails anymore (I never have BTW, not that old).

When people take such a technical view of climbing, and start defining and grading to the extent that is frequent on these forums and implied by the whole "performance" and "pushing limits" attitude that lies behind the sort of training involved in this discussion I don't feel on the same wavelength... I do see damage to cliffs though, either by bolting, dry-tooling, intentional or not, and so on, hence my remarks.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> but I think of mixed climbing as not just something you head out to do but the sort of conditions you meet on a mountain. Some is mostly rock, some is mostly snow or ice and between the two it's mixed. It's also what you get when you are on rock and snow starts or when you wake up from a bivvy and find everything frozen. Climbing mixed usually requires crampons as vibrams aren't much good on icy rock and no one uses nails anymore (I never have BTW, not that old).

That might be what Alpine climbers call mixed, but it's not Scottish mixed climbing Bruce. Have you had the chance to climb any Scottish mixed routes?
Bruce Hooker - on 03 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

It's what some Scottish climbers call mixed today maybe but who said we could only speak in such limited terms? Is there only Scotland to climb in? Let's not get too parochial. What do you call a ridge route covered in snow but not ice? Does it matter anyway? I'm not sure I have to define what sort of climber I am, or was anyway!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Clint86 - on 03 May 2013
In reply to ruari88: Its made the front page of the Westmorland gazette. Mainstream.
Michael Gordon - on 03 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to TobyA)
>
> What do you call a ridge route covered in snow but not ice?

mountaineering ground?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> Is there only Scotland to climb in? Let's not get too parochial.

But this is a "parochial" discussion, because the UK winter mixed ethic is reliant on the particular weather conditions that the British mountains get. The Alps are different, even the Norwegian mountains are different - and different approaches develop. You are taking a deep interest in the discussion around UK mixed climbing conditions; and how DT is impacting on that, but it seems that you are using the term 'mixed' to mean something quite different.

You've climbed a lot even if you say you're not doing so much these days, so I'm just interested whether you have climbed many Scottish winter routes, particular mixed ones? You used the phrase "junk climbing" above; and I got the impression you were suggesting that modern UK mixed routes were a product of "junk climbing" culture - of dry tooling.

There's not much point talking about what French, or Slovenian or Polish winter climbing is like here, because they differ due to different weather. This discussion should be about whether DT venues like the Works impact on UK winter ethics or not.
GrahamD - on 03 May 2013
In reply to Clint86:

A 1/3 page spread in I (the paper) this morning as well. Fairly well balanced piece - even a quote from 'professional climber' Alan Hinkes !
foxjerk - on 03 May 2013
In reply to ruari88: How about we just attach a load of wooden panels to the side of disused railway bridges and let people dry tool up that? Right, I'm off to set up some via ferrata at Chair Ladder.
Dave Ing - on 03 May 2013
I'm a trad climber but I just wanted to show my support. I have donated a couple of quid.

http://www.cumbriaboltfund.co.uk/donations
bombshell - on 03 May 2013
In reply to ruari88: "lake district vigilantes take to the mountains." daily telegrapg on friday page 3.
Ramblin dave - on 03 May 2013
In reply to foxjerk:
> (In reply to ruari88) How about we just attach a load of wooden panels to the side of disused railway bridges and let people dry tool up that?

Maybe they could use slabs of quarried slate instead of wood?
Ron Kenyon - on 04 May 2013
In reply to Dave Ing:

Thanks for that and to others

Ron Kenyon - Cumbria Bolt Fund Treasurer
Bruce Hooker - on 04 May 2013
In reply to TobyA:

> You are taking a deep interest in the discussion around UK mixed climbing conditions...

I was reacting to posts calling people cowards and using infantile terms about their lack of testicles... then continued the way the discussion turned, so I don't think that shows a "deep interest in UK mixed climbing conditions". For me this thread is about the chopping of bolts and the reactions to this - if I am guilty of anything it is saying that those who did the chopping are no more blameworthy than those who did the bolting, on that I plead guilty.

For me "junk climbing" means all the fast food approaches to climbing - bolted protection, guided climbing, courses, dry tooling, climbing walls, climbing competitions, stuff like that... Like junk food many like it, I occasionally eat a hamburger and in France any rock climbing outside the Alps means clipping bolts, so I'm not fanatic about it, I just think it's not the best sort of climbing, and I resent the way it advances like a slow steam roller, unstoppably driven by commerce and wannabee climbers and, for the moment at least.

It seems ironical that these changes are happening in climbing just when the rest of the world is waking up to ecology and sustainable development.
mux - on 05 May 2013
In reply to ruari88: Just Wanted to say a big thanks you to the popular peoples ..er peoples popular front... peoples climbing front of judia .. the silly people who chopped the bolts.

Because if you hadn't I may well have gone another year without visiting the Works.

but you did so me and some friends took a drive up to help out with the renovations.

Its and excellent venue that will allow people to train hard or be coached in the techniques used in winter. Its secluded, un-intrusive and with thanks to the hard work of the locals well equipped again... all in all the dogs dangle bits and every area should have one.

It was also great to meet both Paddy and Brian, two of the nicest and committed chaps you will ever meet.

keep it up lads.


Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to mux:

Proof if you needed it that either placing or chopping bolts will evoke a response, and that response will help to determine the "consensus"

Did the protaganists really think that in the wake of their actions dry-toolers would see the (supposed) error of their ways and let the Works go back to nature? On the contrary, the discussion that has been provoked here and elsewhere has helped to define where this style of climbing is appropriate, so in a perverse way the People's Front have actually shot themselves in the foot and strengthened the dry-tooling ethic.

Could they really not see that this would be the outcome? Their action may have come from the heart, but it will probably be akin to Lear raging impotently against the storm.

Morgan P - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to mux)
> Did the protaganists really think that in the wake of their actions dry-toolers would see the (supposed) error of their ways and let the Works go back to nature?

I was thinking the same thing, been trying to guess whether they're sat at home smug about their vandalism or whether, after viewing all the hatred aimed their way from the vast majority of the climbing community, they feel half excommunicated and guilty for betraying the effort put in by so many dedicated climbers and companies for developing this venue. Hopefully the latter.

I'm not really bothered about legal proceedings against them however, a nice front page post on UKC and BMC for a week with their pictures will ruin their climbing career enough.

If they have sponsers they'll loose them (note: www.rockandice.com/lates-news/chipping-in-newyork ) and any climber partners not involved in the incident I'm sure would distance themselves from them. Climbers are a close knit bunch and don't take kindly to vandals and robbers of expensive gear.

Bruce Hooker - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Morgan P:

> I was thinking the same thing, been trying to guess whether they're sat at home smug about their vandalism or whether, after viewing all the hatred aimed their way from the vast majority of the climbing community, they feel half excommunicated and guilty...

Have you any reason to believe that the "vast majority of the climbing community" is full of "hatred"? Or does such a twisted nature come from your own immature mentality? A lot of climbers dislike bolting and chipping but most normal balanced adults don't hate people for this sort of thing.

As for their "climbing careers", how many climbers see their climbing as a career? Just because the media make a fuss about a few prima donnas it doesn't mean they are anything more than advertising vehicles.... it's only a hobby.

> Climbers are a close knit bunch and don't take kindly to vandals and robbers of expensive gear.

Again this seems something of a fantasy, especially as many climbers think that it's the bolters who are the vandals, not those who remove the bolts and defend the crags.


In reply to mux:

So by your logic all those in favour of bolting should secretly chop bolts to boost the popularity of bolting? Add this to anti-bolters chopping too and, apart from problems of all these debolters meeting up in the dead of the night, there could be a wave of bolt-chopping the like of which the planet has never seen!

Or alternatively their could be a wee fault in your logic :-)
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> many climbers think that it's the bolters who are the vandals, not those who remove the bolts and defend the crags.

There are very few climbers who see the bolting of a grotty and otherwise unusable quarry as an act of vandalism, of this I am sure. This is not a bolt debate.

There are however one or two who see a link between dry-tool training and ethically questionable practices on winter routes. I don't agree with them, but at least see it as a discussion worth having.
Dave Turnbull, BMC - on 05 May 2013
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

At least they've tried to put their perspective across a bit more articulately, although their original modus operandi was still wrong.

It's a shame that their communication isn't inter-reactive; what I'd like to ask "them" is whether their disagreement is with routes being done under minimal cover (which is close to dry-tooling), or with any acknowledged summer classics being subjected to axe and crampons under any conditions?

There does seem to be a bit of confusion (evidenced in this thread) about which of these is the bogeyman. Or both? Or neither..
Enty - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Morgan P:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> I was thinking the same thing, been trying to guess whether they're sat at home smug about their vandalism or whether, after viewing all the hatred aimed their way from the vast majority of the climbing community,
> I'm not really bothered about legal proceedings against them however, a nice front page post on UKC and BMC for a week with their pictures will ruin their climbing career enough.
>
>

I think you could be wrong about this Morgan. There's plenty of climbers who I know in the Lancs / Lakes area who totally agree with what has been done. Just because these people aren't regulars on UKC doesn't mean they don't exist.

E
Bruce Hooker - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> This is not a bolt debate.

Really? It's not just a bolt debate, the motives of the choppers are far wider as indicated just above, but without bolts would this whole affair have happened?
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Enty:

> There's plenty of climbers who I know in the Lancs / Lakes area who totally agree with what has been done.

Not disputing this, but out of interest why? What is their argument? Anti-black or anti-scratch? (Please see my last post - there's a difference!)

ads.ukclimbing.com
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> without bolts would this whole affair have happened?

Without bolts the Works would not have achieved the same popularity/prominence as a training venue, but people would have gone and climbed the same winter routes in the same variable conditions. This would have created the same antagonsism, but without the convenient scapegoat/target of a DT crag to lash out at.

Even the perpetrators have said that this is not about bolts or even about the Works. It's about the perceived but poorly-defined "issue" of "dry-tooling" summer rock-climbs in the winter.

coldwill - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B: seems to me they have carried out this action and have only just thought how to articulate their reasons. I'm sure their ideal would be a total ban on mixed climbing in the lakes, but they're ten years behind the curve. 2003 Steve Ashworth and Stuart Woods made a first winter ascent of the E3 crack left of Engineer's Slab, Great Gable. This I remember was controversial at the time but who could foresee the next ten years. The feeling was that the lakes wouldn't come in regularly enough for there to be a big problem, at least that was my feeling from outside.
Things stated to change almost emmidiatly softer 2003, regularly you would hear of hard first winter ascents in the Lakes and regularly I would have trouble finding partners for Scotland at my level when the Lakes were in. I made the decision not to winter climb in the lakes, I was only five hours from the prime Scotish venues and I knew the area. It was an easy decision. My friends from the North East however, many new to the winter scene, would read the blogs and the magazines and head over at the first signes of anything being in.
Everybody knows the damage winter climbing does to the rock, in or out of condition, no difference really. Imagine seeing the increase each year in people and damage, unchecked either by the media or any organisational bodies. Any opposition drowned out by the enthusiasm of the protagonists and the indifference of the majority. The final nail being this ;
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mn6YlrugR_UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Lakes+district+winter...
And this by 'the' man;
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1811
And the final insult being continued spray like this;
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3335
The logical conclusion of the above is that Millstone is game on... Oh! Been done already! The guest editorial above came less than a month after the Millstone incident but two Millstoners had reached the conclusion already albeit in an extreme example.
Eric9Points - on 05 May 2013
In reply to coldwill:
> (In reply to Jamie B) seems to me they have carried out this action and have only just thought how to articulate their reasons. I'm sure their ideal would be a total ban on mixed climbing in the lakes, but they're ten years behind the curve.

..or ten or twenty years ahead of it.

As a climber with over three decades of winter experience I'm not really sure where the huge increase in numbers of people attempting mixed routes is going to lead us. No doubt there are crags and climbs which can sustain endless numbers of ascents undoubtedly though there are other crags which, due to the type of rock and/or the nature of the climbing, will start to show wear and tear very soon. Perhaps we just have to wait and see while in the mean time just treat our crags with as much respect as we can.

While I don't think these people were right to pull all these bolts I can well understand their alarm at seeing a venue developed with the help of commercial companies then being used on a commercial basis to encourage more people to take up "scratching"* during the winter months. I think their actions should be viewed with a deal more understanding and perhaps accommodation than has been shown on this thread.

*The word used by one of my pioneer friends to describe mixed climbing.

Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to coldwill:

> The logical conclusion of the above is that Millstone is game on...

Surely only a logical conclusion for people with the intellect of an amoeba. Fortunately such people are rare; I do think that the Millstone incident is a red-herring.

There is clearly a bit of a schism within the Lakes (and wider) climbing community. That there are some who would happily ban all snowed-up ascents of summer routes I have no doubt, and they may even have a case. But the bottom line is that people are going to do just what they like - you can't legislate on a mountain.

TRip - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to coldwill)
>
> [...]
>
> Surely only a logical conclusion for people with the intellect of an amoeba. Fortunately such people are rare; I do think that the Millstone incident is a red-herring.
>

How is Gimmer any different to Millstone? It's a south facing,clean crag that rarely comes into conditions. In fact it is probably dry as much as Millstone.

Mixed climbing on established rock climbing crags in the Lakes really concerns me. There are plenty of over grown and chossy crags in the Eastern Crags that folk can mixed climb on. These vegetated climbs will make far better winter routes than those that have been cleaned by the hands and feet of generations of rock climbers.

Whilst I don't condone the actions of those who chopped the bolts at The Works I completely understand and share their concerns.

I think there needs to be some sort of consenus made between local climbers about which crags and routes are fair game and which aren't.

The climbers in North Wales have managed to come to an agreement about what is acceptable to attempt in winter and what isn't, so I see no reason why those in the Lakes cannot.

Tom Ripley
Eric9Points - on 05 May 2013
In reply to TRip:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> How is Gimmer any different to Millstone?

The rock is much much harder and can therefore stand more abuse. How much "more" is, is of course a matter of debate.
hyperion - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

Is that right? ahahahaa...i'll go bolt some routes in Glencoe and see if the climbing establishment allows me to do it. Democracy in the mountains my arse!
Bruce Hooker - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> you can't legislate on a mountain.

The usual "argument to the absurd"... by which you mean the law of the jungle, which also knocks on the head all criticisms of the debolting this thread is about! If all is fair game then fans of bolting had better get their drills ready - it's quicker to chop bolts than replace them and doesn't cost anything either.

Clearly such primitive attitudes are in nobody's interest. Coldwill's post above and the BMC article makes it clear to all who weren't up to date on the facts. The last article he links is written in a tone which makes the chopping very easy to understand - basically, "sod off you lot, we'll do what we want, a few scratches don't matter". I would have thought that Lakes crags, like those of Snowdonia, deserve better than this... They are prime example of non-renewable resources which merit preserving. If chalk is as bad as crampons and axes to the rock then I can see no problem with banning it's use either :-)

As for enforcing all this, it's a National Park with wardens, isn't it? It wouldn't be hard to enforce, but anyway I think that if the situation was made clear to everyone, notices in car parks, campsites and such like that would probably do the trick as less selfish climbers would certainly be happy to remind any vandals, in the same way they prevent bolting already.
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to hyperion:

> I'll go bolt some routes in Glencoe and see if the climbing establishment allows me to do it.

They won't. They won't actually physically stop you, but as soon as the word gets out the bolts will get chopped, people will slander you all over the internet and you will lose any sponsorship deals you may have had. You know that this is the case and that it's not a valid comparison.

jon on 05 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> ... the debolting this thread is about

It's not about debolting Bruce. It's about 'you've f*cked my crags up - so I'll f*ck yours up'.
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> If all is fair game then fans of bolting had better get their drills ready - it's quicker to chop bolts than replace them and doesn't cost anything either.

It costs time and effort, and people will only do it if they feel very strongly. This is why yo-yo bolt/de-bolt tennis matches are fortunately rare.

> As for enforcing all this, it's a National Park with wardens, isn't it? It wouldn't be hard to enforce..

In the (questionable) event of the Park authority deciding this was a priority, I still doubt that they'll be sending wardens up to the crags to stand guard in the teeth of a winter gale, but I could be wrong..
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to jon:

> It's not about debolting Bruce. It's about 'you've f*cked my crags up - so I'll f*ck yours up'.

Except the people who (allegedly) f***ed up Lakes winter crags are not exclusively those that use the Works. It just feels like a blind lashing-out.
jon on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to jon)
> Except the people who (allegedly) f***ed up Lakes winter crags are not exclusively those that use the Works. It just feels like a blind lashing-out.

Yes I agree, but Bruce keeps on lashing out at the bolting, blind to any other issue!
Bruce Hooker - on 05 May 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> [...]
>
> It's not about debolting Bruce. It's about 'you've f*cked my crags up - so I'll f*ck yours up'.

That's another way of putting it, but the means of expressing this, for one party, involved bolts :-)
Jamie B - on 05 May 2013
In reply to jon:

> Bruce keeps on lashing out at the bolting, blind to any other issue

Frustrating and amusing in almost equal measure!

jon on 05 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

... and, of course, predictable!
Bruce Hooker - on 05 May 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> Yes I agree, but Bruce keeps on lashing out at the bolting, blind to any other issue!

Now, now, no need to get bitchy! I think you've become even more French than me, I'll never get used to what they've done here to their crags.
jon on 05 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Not bitchy at all, Bruce. All in good humour.

> what they've done here to their crags.

Ah, well the clue's in that sentence!
Bruce Hooker - on 05 May 2013
In reply to jon:

> All in good humour.

Ok, sorry, I misjudged the "nuance".

They may be "their" crags in away, but that doesn't mean they are right. In reality a fairly small number of people take such decisions, a lot of crags are "equipped" by "associations 1901" who work with the landowner and municipality. Often it's to do with legal responsibility aspects and the landowner and mayor get over this by this method. Associations tend to be run by the committee, sometimes just the President, and in the end decisions are not always made by the majority of climbers. This seems to be true around Burgundy, I don't know if it happens elsewhere, I do know that the actual grid-bolting, chained lower offs and all the clanking regalia went very quickly a few decades ago. Also sometimes individuals take it upon themselves to put up new routes which are concretised by the bolting, a way of going down in history.

The first time I saw the new age of crag climbing in Burgundy it was with a French friend who climbed there, after a few years doing other things, the shock was quite something... I just stood looking at all those shiny rings and chains, like the ghost of Christmas past... It took a good gin and tonic to calm my nerves. I've never really got over it.
coldwill - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B: Millstone was a one off, but who would have thought Scotish winter climbing in the Lakes was such a good idea!
The question is where do you draw the line? The protagonists here obviously want it drawn the far side of the classic Lakes lines. Imagine if Shepards ever came "in", would those lines get the winter treatment? There would be opposition but only because it's popular, if it wasn't popular nobody would care so that makes it ok? Obviously an outrageous example but just making a point. I agree with you though, you can't legislate against winter climbing.
The Works was the only way they had to make people think, you can't damage a trad crag in the same way and they obviously wouldn't want to.
What now?
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Ron Kenyon - on 06 May 2013
In reply to coldwill:

Interesting development with contact to BMC. I have watched with interested the development of the Works for quite a while. I think it is a great venue but behind it there are issues of what happens on the crags. I was involved with discussions and production of the Winter Guide. I have had concerns about climbing classic rock routes in the Lakes with winter gear since the likes of Snickersnack. I was at the BMC debate which did not fully address the issues.

Recently I went up to Bowfell Buttress to get some photos (in rock climbing mode) for the forthcoming Langdale guide. Coinsidentally I met Paddy Cave with a group and we had a good crack about things including his ascents of 1984 and Mindprobe - and the development of the Works. I had not been to Bowfell Buttress for many, many years and never done it in winter - however I was shocked at the damage done to the rock by mainly crampons and no doubt ice axes. A classic *** route !!!!!

In the Welsh Winter guides certain areas of crags are out of bounds for winter climbing - an agreement reached by the local activists there. In the Winter Guide we considered the idea a ban or not describing routes on south facing crags - noticeably Gimmer and in the end just mentioned the routes with a caveat. There are other classic rock routes done in winter eg Engineer Slabs; Snickersnack; C Ordinary (Dow) which are mentioned in the Winter guide. Should we be encouraging climbers onto these routes ? I have not done these in summer for sometime - I suspect (hope) that Bowfell Buttress is by far the most damaged but not sure. These are classic popular rock routes - we should not be destroying them with crampon wear etc.

I have been pondering on this for a few days. However can I put the following as a basis for debate at the BMC area meeting -

There should be -
(a) No winter climbing on south facing crags - eg Gimmer; White Ghyll - "South" being the cleaner crags - a list agreed between activists.
(b) On "North" facing or remaining crags - there should be no winter climbing of *** rock routes - and other rock routes should only be climbed in appropriate winter conditions.
(c) If the "North" facing *** route develops into an ice climb (eg Botterill Slab) then it can be climbed with winter gear in that condition.

I am sure there are lots of points to debate and clarify. What is "South" facing. Why just *** - why not all starred or " *** and ** " ? What if it is 90% ice with a bit of rock to link ! Is this a restriction of "trade" for the winter activists" - or preservation of *** rock climbs ? etc etc




Jamie B - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ron Kenyon:

> I had not been to Bowfell Buttress for many, many years and never done it in winter - however I was shocked at the damage done to the rock by mainly crampons and no doubt ice axes. A classic *** route !!!!!

It's also a 3-star winter route, and has been for over half a century! I must admit that ever since doing it summer I've lusted after a winter ascent and if I only lived in Southern Scotland rather than the Highlands I'd probably have had it by now. It's high, north-facing and takes the logical line up a big crag - what mountaineer wouldn't want to climb it!

> can I put the following as a basis for debate at the BMC area meeting -

> (a) No winter climbing on south facing crags - eg Gimmer; White Ghyll - "South" being the cleaner crags - a list agreed between activists.
> (b) On "North" facing or remaining crags - there should be no winter climbing of *** rock routes - and other rock routes should only be climbed in appropriate winter conditions.
> (c) If the "North" facing *** route develops into an ice climb (eg Botterill Slab) then it can be climbed with winter gear in that condition.

That sounds like a sensible and well-reasoned starting-point. As you say there will be difficulties of interpretation and "enforcement" but having at very least an agreed "template" of best practice would be a good thing. Don't forget the unfozen turf!

Interesting that the North Wales locals seem to have achieved an easier consensus, I wonder why that is? Is the "scene" perhaps a little more tight and less factional?
mux - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

>
>
> In reply to mux:
>
> So by your logic all those in favour of bolting should secretly chop bolts to boost the popularity of bolting? Add this to anti-bolters chopping too and, apart from problems of all these debolters meeting up in the dead of the night, there could be a wave of bolt-chopping the like of which the planet has never seen!
>
> Or alternatively their could be a wee fault in your logic :-)


Sorry Bruce I didn't think I was applying any logic just a mere thank you for highlighting the need for me to visit an area. You are obviously more intelligent than I am as any sub-contextual logic in my post was hidden even to me.

As for secretly chopping bolts to boost popularity, I don't remember mentioning anything about that so I am afraid the answer lies with you. But should you be asking my opinion all I can say is; I know that I wouldn't waste my days chopping mine or some other poor buggers hard work just to improve the popularity of a crag, and I think anyone who has ever done a days bolting with feel the same so I wouldn't worry too much about a bolting chopping bolting epidemic. At least not until they make that bolt gun in Vertical Limit available to the UK market.

but please don't listen to me... as you know I have poor logic.

:)

Bruce Hooker - on 06 May 2013
In reply to mux:

> as you know I have poor logic.

You also have a poor memory as higher up the thread you posted:

"In reply to ruari88: Just Wanted to say a big thanks you to the popular peoples ..er peoples popular front... peoples climbing front of judia .. the silly people who chopped the bolts.

Because if you hadn't I may well have gone another year without visiting the Works."
In reply to Jamie B:
>
> It's also a 3-star winter route, and has been for over half a century! I must admit that ever since doing it summer I've lusted after a winter ascent and if I only lived in Southern Scotland rather than the Highlands I'd probably have had it by now. It's high, north-facing and takes the logical line up a big crag - what mountaineer wouldn't want to climb it!
>

50 years ago it would have been done infrequently and probably when well plastered. Nowadays it gets done loads as soon as there is a bit of snow in the wind and is getting trashed.

Chris
Eric9Points - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> 50 years ago it would have been done infrequently and probably when well plastered. Nowadays it gets done loads as soon as there is a bit of snow in the wind and is getting trashed.


Exactly Chris, there are far more climbers around these days and their idea of what is in condition is quite different to what the climbers of yesteryear regarded as in condition.
coldwill - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B: Maybe, and I'm just speculating, North Wales doesn't have the same problem due to its location. The Lakes are just accessible from so may place, you just turn left on your way up to Scotland and bang, you're there. I think as well, again from the outside, that the North Wales scene thought "we need to manage this properly" right from the start.
Comparing the Lakes to Scotland, Lochnagar is getting some fearsome new winter lines up some equally good summer routes, I've only been there in winter mind, but nobody seems to care. This is probably what your current Lakes winter climber dreams of at night.
I think, due to the popularity of the Lakes you can't deny access to one particular group, but then again you can't let one group run riot. The problem seems to be that the winter climbers are perseved as running into the hills waving the axes and shouting freedom.
All sides should accept that the problem is not with those who lead but with those who follow, and by that I mean specifically with regards to damage. The leaders have to take a longer term view in my opinion, there might be some harrumphing and stamping of feet but if you can't accept this then your not really a well rounded climber.
mux - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to mux)
>
> [...]
>
> You also have a poor memory as higher up the thread you posted:
>
> "In reply to ruari88: Just Wanted to say a big thanks you to the popular peoples ..er peoples popular front... peoples climbing front of judia .. the silly people who chopped the bolts.
>
> Because if you hadn't I may well have gone another year without visiting the Works."

Do you just continue to twist words until they become so blurred people don't bother reading them ? or maybe you just enjoy miss-interpretation so much that you feel the need to share it :)

either way I don't like getting dragged into internet slagging matches so I am off to enjoy this beautiful evening. Please don't waste time responding as I wont be reading.

love you lots

Mux

TTFN





Morgan P - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> Have you any reason to believe that the "vast majority of the climbing community" is full of "hatred"? Or does such a twisted nature come from your own immature mentality? A lot of climbers dislike bolting and chipping but most normal balanced adults don't hate people for this sort of thing.

Sounds like someone angrily trying to justify their actions. But then that's probably just my "twisted nature" too, yes?


> Again this seems something of a fantasy, especially as many climbers think that it's the bolters who are the vandals, not those who remove the bolts and defend the crags.

If chopping bolts and stealing equipment at a dry-tooling area that no-one wants to trad climb on is defending the lake district then I'm assuming you'd extend this 'logic' to any indoor dry-tooling walls too? Seeing as they're also promoting dry-tooling. The only difference, both being places people wouldn't otherwise use, is that the indoor centre has a roof over it. Would that be 'defending the crags' too?

Morgan P - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Enty:

> I think you could be wrong about this Morgan. There's plenty of climbers who I know in the Lancs / Lakes area who totally agree with what has been done. Just because these people aren't regulars on UKC doesn't mean they don't exist.

True, in my opinion the line is drawn where dry-tooling is damaging an otherwise used crag. As far as I can tell the works wasn't exactly a prime venue prior to dry tooling there (and isn't a natural landscape, being a quarry). I can definitely see why there would be frustration with what people have described as a spread of dry-tooling to other locations.

Jamie B - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> 50 years ago it (Bowfell Buttress) would have been done infrequently and probably when well plastered. Nowadays it gets done loads as soon as there is a bit of snow in the wind and is getting trashed.

I've never understood why so many people equate a snowed-up rock route being "plastered" with any sort of realistic protection against scratching. If anything it gets scratched more when people are pedaling around through powder. But it's true that more people failing to draw the line does equate to more "damage" just through weight of numbers.

Jamie B - on 06 May 2013
In reply to coldwill:

> Comparing the Lakes to Scotland, Lochnagar is getting some fearsome new winter lines up some equally good summer routes, I've only been there in winter mind, but nobody seems to care. This is probably what your current Lakes winter climber dreams of at night.

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that those routes on the 'Gar are very rarely if ever done in summer. But they are utterly inspiring as cutting-edge winter testpieces, would it not be a shame if the Lakes/N.Wales equivalents were denied to their respective locals?
Goucho on 06 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> 50 years ago it would have been done infrequently and probably when well plastered. Nowadays it gets done loads as soon as there is a bit of snow in the wind and is getting trashed.
>
> Chris

Maybe it's just a reflection of today's fast food internet generation Chris - I want it now, I want the tick, and I don't care whether it's in condition or not!

jon on 06 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
>
> Maybe it's just a reflection of today's fast food internet generation Chris - I want it now, I want the tick, and I don't care whether it's in condition or not!

But as Jamie says, they'll get trashed whether they're 'in condition' or not, in fact maybe more if they are in condition...!
In reply to Goucho:

>
> Maybe it's just a reflection of today's fast food internet generation Chris - I want it now, I want the tick, and I don't care whether it's in condition or not!

I think is is more to do with people not having a clue what 'proper' winter conditions are, I get the impression that a dusting of snow on the high tops means it is open season nowadays.



Chris
In reply to jon:
>
>
> But as Jamie says, they'll get trashed whether they're 'in condition' or not, in fact maybe more if they are in condition...!

I don't see that if the routes are properly covered in ice, and not just a coating of snow.


Chris
gavjwp - on 06 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

surely it is time to bin this thread......
jon on 06 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

It'd have to be pretty thick ice Chris. But how often does that occur? As I understand it, once there's a sprinkle of snow it's fair game. Or am I wrong?
Goucho on 06 May 2013
In reply to jon: Well I suppose it depends on your definition of in condition.

If the route is plastered in snow and ice (true winter conditions) and you actually know what you're doing, then you don't have to trash it. Just treat it with the respect the route, and your fellow climbers deserve.

I suspect however, that many people winter climbing today, possibly lack both the skill, and respect.

I've seen routes like Point 5 and Zero climbed by several parties the same day, without it getting trashed. I've also seen the same routes battered senseless by just one rope.
Goucho on 06 May 2013
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> It'd have to be pretty thick ice Chris. But how often does that occur? As I understand it, once there's a sprinkle of snow it's fair game. Or am I wrong?

You're right jon, but it's wrong that it is the case.

And therein lies the problem.
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Jamie B - on 06 May 2013
In reply to jon:

> It'd have to be pretty thick ice Chris. But how often does that occur? As I understand it, once there's a sprinkle of snow it's fair game. Or am I wrong?

You're not wrong. A buttress route like Bowfell Buttress getting so plated in snow and ice that it is climbed predominantly on that and not on the underlying rock is the blue moon of all blue moons. Indeed it may never have been climbed in those conditions.

In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> It'd have to be pretty thick ice Chris. But how often does that occur? As I understand it, once there's a sprinkle of snow it's fair game. Or am I wrong?

That's the point I guess, back in the day we waited for the proper 'conditions' (the crap gear we had was at least part of the reason). As you say nowadays, a bit of snow and (some) folks are happy to scratch a way up anything.


Chris
Bruce Hooker - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Morgan P:

> and isn't a natural landscape, being a quarry

This has been said by several posters but it isn't quite clear what they mean. Amongst many others the Avon Gorge is "just a quarry" too, does this imply it's protection is not necessary?
Morgan P - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> This has been said by several posters but it isn't quite clear what they mean. Amongst many others the Avon Gorge is "just a quarry" too, does this imply it's protection is not necessary?

As I'm very sure you're aware, I stated very clearly that I was talking about places that are not prior used. Repeatedly.

> In reply to mux:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> Do you just continue to twist words until they become so blurred people don't bother reading them ? or maybe you just enjoy miss-interpretation so much that you feel the need to share it :)

+1
Jamie B - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> back in the day we waited for the proper conditions. As you say nowadays, a bit of snow and (some) folks are happy to scratch a way up anything.

Presumably you weren't actually climbing buttress routes?

Jamie B - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

We get it Bruce, you don't like bolts.

Fair enough, but as has been said repeatedly, this is not a bolt debate!
Bruce Hooker - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> We get it Bruce, you don't like bolts.
>
> Fair enough, but as has been said repeatedly, this is not a bolt debate!

As I've said repeatedly, once or twice anyway, I think it is, in part... I hope I'm allowed a different opinion in your brave new world?

Bruce Hooker - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Morgan P:

> As I'm very sure you're aware, I stated very clearly that I was talking about places that are not prior used.

What difference does that make? Each precedent knocks the wedge in deeper.

This thread has developed from initially a one sided shock horror to a number of people giving opposing or complementary views... I think you and others could at least try to take this on board, as they say. There are specific questions related to the trashing of classic rock routes in the Lakes by pseudo hard men wannabees and wider issues concerning dry tooling and bolting, but the trashing issue seems to be quite well exposed and not very well contested.

As usual it is not black and white.
Ron Kenyon - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

I have been meaning to do it for years - but never got round to it. Having seen it in its present highly scratched state I don't want to go back in winter gear and contribute to that scratching.
Michael Gordon - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to jon)
> [...]
>
> That's the point I guess, back in the day we waited for the proper 'conditions' (the crap gear we had was at least part of the reason). As you say nowadays, a bit of snow and (some) folks are happy to scratch a way up anything.
>

Back in Patey's day climbers certainly 'scratched' their way up a good number of buttresses! (though they didn't necessarily wear crampons)

Unless we're talking about thick rime ice (the sort you can get on the Ben and in the Gorms but not really anywhere else) it's rare that one can do a buttress route without using the rock at some stage.

GrahamD - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that those routes on the 'Gar are very rarely if ever done in summer. But they are utterly inspiring as cutting-edge winter testpieces, would it not be a shame if the Lakes/N.Wales equivalents were denied to their respective locals?

Thats largely the point. The Lakes/N.Wales are NOT equivalent in any way. They are the best part of 250m lower and they are considerably further South yet people seem to think they are reliable winter climbing options.

3leggeddog on 07 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

&#618;f &#618; were to &#609;et all cynical and conspiratorial about this&#716; &#618; mi&#609;ht su&#609;&#609;est that this was a deliberate own &#609;oal&#716; to raise the profile of the works and &#609;alvanise consent for such venues.

&#618;f so&#716; it has worked.
3leggeddog on 07 May 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog:

what has happened to my keyboard&#660; it all makes sense when typed but comes out coded
MJ - on 07 May 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog:

what has happened to my keyboard&#660; it all makes sense when typed but comes out coded

Looks like someone has put an Hex on it.
tom290483 - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> [...]
>
> As I've said repeatedly, once or twice anyway, I think it is, in part... I hope I'm allowed a different opinion in your brave new world?

Do you get to have a different opinion in France or are there no decent French climbing forums willing to listen to your opinion?

Bruce Hooker - on 07 May 2013
In reply to tom290483:

There are French forums, so now not only is me having an opinion a problem, you want to say ukc is for British residents climbers only? As I said, some of you have a nice view of the world, one you can keep.

PS. Your profile picture explains all! Reckon yourself, do you?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=167254
Misha - on 08 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
> The Lakes/N.Wales are NOT equivalent in any way. They are the best part of 250m lower and they are considerably further South yet people seem to think they are reliable winter climbing options.

I don't know that much about the Lakes winter scene but there's plenty of great winter climbing in North Wales. As you say, it isn't reliable but when it's in, it's great. The best ice routes are on a par with the best ones in Scotland. The vegetated mixed climbing on the 300m high Black Ladders is on a par with the big Scottish winter crags. There aren't any decent summer routes on the Ladders, in fact hardly any at all, so it's a non-controversial winter playground (Western Gully is given 3 stars as a summe Severe but why anyone would want to climb a vegetated, slimy gully in the summer is beyond me; it is also a superb winter VI which is in Cold Climbs, which gives it a certain legitimacy as a winter line, not that it needs it - when it's in, it's undoubtedly a winter line).

There are new mixed routes being put up every winter but mostly they don't follow summer lines and they very rarely stray onto summer classics. That's in part because a good Welsh winter route will typically involve some turf and you don't get that on popular summer routes. Also, the classic summer crags don't tend to come in to acceptable winter condition (occasionally, like this Easter, you get ice falls around the Cromlech but I've never seen the crag itself rime up; even if it does, I don't suppose anyone from the North Wales scene would be tooling up the Corner or Left Wall, people tend to be aware of the fairly strict ethics).

The main example of a crag where mixed routes criss cross and sometimes follow summer routes is Clogwyn Ddu. It's a well established winter venue and yes it might be getting a bit scratched up in places but I've never hear of anyone having a major issue with that as hardly anyone goes there in the summer as it's so high up and there are few routes on it (in fact there are more winter routes there than there are summer ones in the 1993 guide).

So lots of great routes, just a pity that typically there are only a few weekends a year when they are in. Incidentally, sometimes the ice routes are in when the mixed stuff isn't - people then go ice climbing rather than dry tooling up bare rock.

There don't seem to be the same problems as in the Lakes, at least not to the same extent. Perhaps there are more winter only / mainly winter crags. Or perhaps the ethics are stricter. For example, in the new guide there are a few areas marked as 'classic summer routes, no winter climbing here'. The first ascent photos you see generally show good winter conditions. So perhaps the Lakes activists could learn something there. On the other hand, winter climbing has a long history in the Lakes and routes like Bowfell Buttress are established winter classics (FWA 1937 I believe). Long may they stay that way.

Some ground rules could be helpful, along the lines suggested earlier in the thread. The local BMC Area Meeting would be the forum for articulating these. Anyone who sufficiently cares about the issue could input into that and get involved with a working party drawing up suggested rules etc. Rather than fulminating on UKC, yawn.....

Jamie B - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> The local BMC Area Meeting would be the forum for articulating these. Anyone who sufficiently cares about the issue could input into that and get involved with a working party drawing up suggested rules etc. Rather than fulminating on UKC, yawn.....

I live in Scotland and don't winter-climb in the Lakes. I'm still genuinely interested in the discussion and would like to continue it. Isn't that what climbing forums are for?

Jamie B - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> PS. Your profile picture explains all! Reckon yourself, do you?
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=167254

What an odd thing to say. What exactly does the picture explain? And are you accusing Tom of the unthinkably heinous crime of self-assurance?

Dave Turnbull, BMC - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

Good post.
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GrahamD - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Misha:

> I don't know that much about the Lakes winter scene but there's plenty of great winter climbing in North Wales. As you say, it isn't reliable but when it's in, it's great.

Thats the nub of the problem. It isn't reliable yet weekend after weekend you see battalions of young hopefuls dragging their new tools into the hills just because there was one uncolsolidated dump of snow in the week. Hell, its all hacked down before its had a chance to freeze/thaw !


> winter climbing has a long history in the Lakes and routes like Bowfell Buttress are established winter classics (FWA 1937 I believe). Long may they stay that way.

Winter climbing in the Lakes may have had a long history but it was never a mainstream winter venue. Most days in winter Bowfell Butress is more suitably climbed as a rock route with vibrams than with spikes. You need to take a look at that route - its an absolute mess.
Jamie B - on 08 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

> Most days in winter Bowfell Butress is more suitably climbed as a rock route with vibrams than with spikes. You need to take a look at that route - its an absolute mess.

Think I might have to too. I climbed it about 12 summers ago, and don't remember being upset by the scratching, even although as a winter climber I was purely a gully-plodder at that time. I wonder if this means that the rate of attrition has accelerated, or am I simply less bothered by these things?

I've done classic rock routes since that were well scratched, and I can't honestly say that it detracted from my experience. Maybe I was more focused on the quality of the line, the moves, the views, the crack with my partner, too much so to allow my day to be spoiled? Maybe if you go out seeking to be upset by something you will be...

biscuit - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

I did bowfell buttress in winter before i did it in Summer.

Took someone up it the Summer after that great Winter we had a few years ago and it was scratched to buggery. It really made me think tbh about what i climb and when in Winter.

That's all that's needed really - a bit of common sense.

WInter climbing used to be a very niche thing. Now it is attracting a lot more people who need educating. You tended to go out with someone who knew what they were doing and you learnt about conditions etc along the way. Now i think you get groups of uneducated ( about Winter climbing ) people all together with no one to tell them what's acceptable locally and what isn't.

I personally feel that as time goes on this new influx of people will come across the info and things will settle down. We just need to keep putting it out there.

As for routes now getting many times more ascents in a season than they used to, and the subsequent extra wear and tear that brings, well i don't think there's much we can do about that. We climb, we damage the environment.
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Is that the offical BMC position ?;-)

It is amazing how often some Welsh winter climbing is in good nick despite all this global warming malarky. Maybe its a good job its not so well known or the parking problems for one location might become even more troublesome.
andrewmcleod - on 08 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

It seems I got carried away thinking through this, so feel free to skip this post :P

I probably shouldn't feed the flames of this thread, but anyway... (these points are more 'things it seems people think from reading this thread' than pronouncements - I am still moderately agnostic about UK mixed climbing on summer routes)

Definitions:
Dry tooling = climbing with tools in Summer (not 'out of condition' mixed climbing)
Mixed climbing = climbing with tools in Winter with snow/ice (can be 'in condition' or 'out of condition', with arguments about this)

It seems nobody believes dry-tooling on established rock routes is OK. In any event, with a few well-publicised exceptions, it seems nobody does dry-tooling outside of established venues.

I would argue that the large-scale features of rock has value to the general public (mountains, dramatic crags etc).
I would argue that the small-scale features of rock (that tiny crimp, hand jam, wobbly flake belay) is only of interest to climbers.
I would finally argue that wildlife on those cliffs is of general interest again (birds, alpine flowers etc).

===========

Summer climbing:

Damage to rock: Limited, takes a fairly large number of climbers to polish a route
Damage to wildlife: Extensive when routes are cleared? Potential significant environmental destruction to rare alpine plants?
Damage to aesthetics: Depends on your opinion of 'clean' vs 'mossy' route? Probably only climbers notice/care?

Winter climbing:

Damage to rock: Scratching (possibly significant) on 'mixed' routes? No damage on pure ice/snow routes. Damage possibly worse on mixed routes when snow coats rocks, hiding holds?
Damage to wildlife: If climbed when turf is frozen, extremely limited if careful (no careless clearing of cracks etc). If climbed on unfrozen turf, significant environmental damage (unacceptable?). Vegetation does not need 'clearing' as it is part of the climb.
Damage to aesthetics: Scratches

===========

So my main questions would be:
a1) How environmentally destructive is summer rock route creation/gardening on mountain crags?
b2) How environmentally destructive is winter climbing, assuming turf is only climbed when in condition?

c1) How damaging are scratches from ice tools on summer routes - is it purely aesthetic or does it damage the climb/change grades (chipping, removal of loose holds, polishing cracks etc.)? Is it worse than chalk on boulders?
c2) Is this damage only of interest/concern to climbers, or is it clearly visible at a distance/of interest to the general public? As somehow who hasn't been climbing that long, I still find it hard to see the bolts on a wall 3m above me, so stuff is probably a lot more obvious to climbers than non-climbers :P

d1) How damaging is gardening/cleaning of summer routes to winter climbing on those routes?
d2) How much damage does summer climbing do to the rock? (this one, I guess, is not as much per climber as mixed climbing)

e) I have avoided talk of 'condition' outside of frozen/non-frozen turf (which is clearer?), but is there any reason to demand 'white' conditions for mixed climbing when it seems it doesn't provide additional protection to the rock (and possibly the opposite)? Other than limiting the number of people doing it, but we could equally say that mixed routes could only be dry-tooled on one Sunday every three months; I would argue either it is OK or it isn't?

It sounds like mountain crags have their own set of traditions and environmental considerations (not that I have done any!), and therefore a discussion about ethics on climbing on mountain crags should consider all forms of climbing in that context.

Since all forms of climbing cause damage, I guess the only fair way to decide what is acceptable is to decide how much damage is acceptable for our own selfish climbing pleasure, and not do things beyond that (and 'tradition' arguably shouldn't come into it).

One outcome of this thread is I am beginning to realise how much gardening goes into summer climbing, how artificial a 'crag' can be (even without bolts), and considering more carefully the environmental impact (in most places I guess it is not so bad, but on big cliffs summer climbing may be quite environmentally destructive?)

Slightly unrelated: The other thing I wonder; do people think of climbs as temporary? I kind of assume that all of the climbs I do have a limited number of ascents, and that once enough people have enjoyed them they will become extremely polished and not so much fun any more (I may be biased due to the small number of outdoor climbing I have done involving shiny 'easy' stuff at Chudleigh and Font :P )
Bruce Hooker - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

> And are you accusing Tom of the unthinkably heinous crime of self-assurance?

No, at his age being self assured is quite common, it's the choice of photo.

Dave Turnbull, BMC - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

There isn't an 'official BMC position' on this yet. The Works is one issue and Lakes winter climbing ethics is another, but they're clearly closely related. I think the general understanding out there is that dry-tooling shouldn't be practiced on existing and established rock climbs. The difficulty occurs in winter when rock climbs are climbed in marginal conditions using ice tools; essentially there's not much difference between this and doing the same route using ice tools in summer. In some cases the fact that its winter is almost used as an excuse / justification for doing the route in a style that wouldn't be acceptable in summer.

The FRCC winter climbs guidebook includes various guidance and advice on winter climbing ethics but it does seem that more specific thought is now needed and that people need to get together to hammer things out. The 4 June BMC Lakes Area meeting will be a good opportunity for airing views and it seems to me that a working party of wise-heads from all parties will be needed to try and put something in writing. There have been quite a few good suggestions on this thread already e.g. from Ron Kenyon and I think the comparison with the situation in North Wales is also useful.

Its inevitable that new generations of climbers will want to push the boundaries of the possible but ultimately its in no ones interested if our crags end up being trashed as result.
biscuit - on 08 May 2013
In reply to ruari88:

Just on a total aside but i believe the majority of kit there is ( was ) fixed.

This pic:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=201869

and a few others of this line, seems to show the sort of situation that can end up with fixed gear cutting a rope.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67607

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/knowledge/qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carab...

I may be wrong, it may not be fixed kit for the first couple of draws, it may not normally go like that so i apologise if i am shouting about nothing. If it ws just one pic i wouldn't havebothered but it's like that in a couple.

Didn't know where else to post it and as this thread is still getting lots of views ( presumably from people who use the crag ) i though ti may be helpful here.
Frank the Husky - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC: Dave, will the People's Climbing Front be at the June Area meeting?
Misha - on 09 May 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
I once walked in with the hope of doing Bowfell Buttress in winter based on what turned out to be an incorrect or out of date 'intelligence' from a local. It wasn't in - no rime, little snow, turf not frozen. So we walked round to the other side of the buttress which was out of the sun and found another route in decent winter nick. I guess not everyone would do that. Of course as others have said, any winter ascent except in very iced up conditions would damage the rock to some extent.
Dave Turnbull, BMC - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:

I'd imagine so.
johncoxmysteriously - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

Undercover, or is there going to be a shock unveiling?!

C'mon, where's the scurrilous Twittersphere rumours?! Someone must know who they are - in fact a few people seem to think they know, though they don't all seem to think the same thing.

jcm
Hephaestus - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> There isn't an 'official BMC position' on this yet... it does seem that people need to get together to hammer things out.

Unfortunate choice of words.
Bruce Hooker - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Rob Gibson:

> It's akin to someone knocking down your drystone wall, after you'd spent weeks grafting on it, because they didn't like man-made structures in the hills.

Oh no it isn't!

:-)
Rob Gibson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Dave Turnbull, BMC:

I hope you can hammer out a balanced set of guidelines for winter climbing in the lakes to keep everyone happy.
FYI. I saw an interesting thread on the other chsannel which is worth repeating - not sure of the 'rules' but I'll paste some of it here (i'm sure you can find the original if you want)

Whoever damaged the bolts at the works is an idiot - there are braver ways to make a point.

>>>>Dry tooling is without doubt the best training you can do for modern winter routes (Just ask Bullock, Pete Harrison etc). It may not be aesthetically pleasing but it works and provided it occurs at suitable venues it has no impact on non-winter climbers.

Seems like there is a lot more conflict in the Lakes; here in Wales there is relatively little friction. Possibly because we have a lot of high, north facing, dank, turfy crags - i.e. perfect for winter routes.<<<<
SP

>>>>[the risk] was acknowledged in North Wales five winters ago when standards and numbers of winter climbers noticeably started to rise. But the destruction of people's hard effort is totally inexcusable, the guys who developed The Works choose that venue thoughtfully, as have all the dry-tool venue developers so far, and they put loads of effort and expense into it (in addition to the donated gear). I've bolted a lot and I'd seriously want to 'vandalise' any dogmatist f*ckwit who destroyed my hard work. It's akin to someone knocking down your drystone wall, after you'd spent weeks grafting on it, because they didn't like man-made structures in the hills.

I love dry-tooling just as I do bouldering, trad, sport and alpinism; I enjoy it all. DT is an immensely fun style of climbing - as anyone who's tried a genuinely good dry-tooling/M-style route in Europe, North America, and now the UK, will know. However I also acknowledge that I do it partly so I can climb harder winter mixed routes in the mountains. I think it's disingenuous for dry-tooling venue developers (I am one) to pretend that dry-tooling exists in a vacuum and that these venues won't lead to any increase in climbers trying harder rocky mixed routes in winter - dry tooling will undoubtedly lead to an increase in mixed climbing standards - it's exactly the same concept as using sport climbing to get fit for trad projects.
It's this 'training for the mountains' factor that the bolt choppers are against and they have a point, albeit they made it in a moronic, gratuitous and destructive way. Dry-tooling venue developers would be wise to publicly acknowledge all the reasons they are doing it and not just the reasons which don't make people nervous, and try to educate and channel any resultant winter new-routing onto suitable projects in the mountains. Dry-tooling isn't going to disappear no matter how much people who aren't into it don't understand it. It'll never be mainstream (it's not even mainstream in Canada/France/Switzerland/Austria) but it's undoubtedly going to grow into whatever space is made available to it, because some climbers want to get fit to go and try hard mountain mixed routes in Europe and the UK, and this is the best way to do that.<<<<
PH

>>>>Pete, perhaps you are right that more credence should be given to the charge that the growth of dry tooling crags will potentially lead to 'damage' of classic rock routes.

However, as a keen winter climber, I'm getting a bit sick of being cast as the bad guy all the time, especially when I look around and see some of the idiotic stunts pulled in the name of traditional rock climbing.

I don't know the lakes scene very well but certainly here in north Wales we have got our house in order, both in terms of respecting the 'reasonable' wishes of trad rock climbers and (on an related but important note) those of organisations like the CCW who wish to protect rare alpine plants.<<<<
SP

Maybe crampons should be banned from all of the UK ridges they seem to be getting scratched in the last few 100 years?
tom290483 - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Jamie B)
>
> [...]
>
> No, at his age being self assured is quite common, it's the choice of photo.

whats wrong with the photo? i quite like drytooling.

to be honest Brucey boy, its not that I think you should bugger off and annoy some french people its just that if your going to bang on about bolts, add some substance to your words. what do you recommend is done about bolting/drytooling/scratching rock in the UK?

my stance is clear, i have spent a lot of time, effort and my own money developing masson lees and the works and just get cheesed off with people sat on the otherside of europe talking shite about something they will not willing contribute too whether with constructive words or actions.

Bruce Hooker - on 09 May 2013
In reply to tom290483:

I've made my point of view abundantly clear, tediously so some would say, I despise bolting, I see it as the rape of the mountain or cliff, bring difficulty down to one's level rather than aspiring to higher things by effort, or simply admitting one's real level and not cheating. If I think that it's largely due to what I have seen in France where the battle is totally lost, for the moment at least, on all low lying crags and it is being lost even in the mountains. It's health and security and wannabee fast-food climbing that rules over here.

Despite spending most of my time at present in France, for reasons that concern no one but myself and the family, I also have a house in Britain and hopefully will be spending more time there as the aforementioned reasons allow. On the other hand as I have no problems with British residents commenting on Fontainebleau, the Alps, and so on I really can't see why you should object to "foreigners" expressing their view for Britain - we all live on the same planet and what starts in one country soon spreads - like chalk, bolts and other plagues. Borders are for Nationalists, patriots and other scoundrels, not for climbers.
Rob Gibson - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

its a shame you valid points are lost in amongst so much pedantic " "*

*insert what ever yuo feel appropriate forum readers
jon on 09 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> Borders are for Nationalists, patriots and other scoundrels, not for climbers.

That's not exactly what you said on the Everest thread, Bruce:

> Isn't it technically true that for one side of the dispute it really is their mountain? Just a thought.
stuart58 - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: the place where the bolts are is a disused man made quarry. its not a mountain or a cliff. I understand your argument but what has been done is not right
Bruce Hooker - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Rob Gibson:

I think you need to look up the word "pedantic"! Bollocks, rubbish, nonsense, ok, each to his own opinion but there is nothing even vaguely pedantic in what I said.


In reply to jon:

Similar remark, there's no contradiction between saying respect local people and "borders are for scoundrels". The point concerning Everest is that these people were, apparently, rigging ropes for everybody and some expert climbers refused to cooperate with the reasonable request to let them finish before they went that way...

I think I can see what you mean but I don't think you are right - when you were a guide I imagine you spent time repairing paths, lugging food up to huts and all the other routine tasks that trainee guides have to do, I bet you'd have been pissed off by people doing what we are told these climbers did. I insist the what "we are told" as there are several pretty well opposing versions of the events and we don't know what the police enquiry will throw up.

As far as we can make out the problem wasn't one of nationality but function - Sherpas live from mountaineering and have responsibilities, this means there views have more weight than visitors, wherever they come from.... just like Chamonix or Courmayeur guides.
Bruce Hooker - on 09 May 2013
In reply to stuart58:

> I understand your argument but what has been done is not right.

I didn't say it was, I just pointed out that from the point of view of the choppers you could argue that chopping the bolts was no worse than drilling the rock and putting them in. Both were acts taken from a unilateral point of view, morally identical.

This was a reaction to the violent and childish tone of the start of the thread calling the choppers "cowards" and casting aspersions on the size of their testicles which always seems to be a bit of a pathetic way of expressing things.

IMO there are two sides to the case, that of the people who set up this climbing area and that of those who reject it for reasons they have now made clear - that of the need to fight back against trashing Lakes crags by dry tooling or what amounts to the same, climbing classic rock out of winter conditions with ice gear. For me I find this argument more convincing.
jon on 09 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> when you were a guide I imagine you spent time repairing paths, lugging food up to huts and all the other routine tasks that trainee guides have to do

Ooof, bit before my time Bruce!
Frank the Husky - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
You say "I despise bolting, I see it as the rape of the mountain or cliff, bring difficulty down to one's level rather than aspiring to higher things by effort, or simply admitting one's real level and not cheating."

I'm not really sure how bolting is "bringing difficulty down". Were it not for bolting, there would be no 9a, and isn't that a lot harder than English 7a which is the current top mark for a trad route? Bolting is not cheating, it's just a different way of climbing and actually, a very good one. Bolts allow one's "real level" (whatever that means) to be reached and pushed. Were it not for doing a bunch of bolted climbing I would never have felt physically (or mentally) strong anough to climb E5.

This reactionary, anti bolt stuff that some persistently roll out has really had it's day, Bruce. This is not 1987 anymore and whilst you're welcome to live in the past, if bolted climbing were removed from the UK and even Europe, the game would be rather dull. Of course, there is some awful and inappropriate bolting in the world but overall it is a force for good and it's made a hell of a difference to the trad climbing that me and many people I know would not have seen had we not clipped bolts and pushed ourselves in safety.
Bruce Hooker - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:

> the game would be rather dull.

I find climbing on bolts rather dull, living in France there is no choice though. All the climbs just fade into one another, the next day you can't remember them hardly. Cue for you to say "you aren't climbing hard enough" - we've had this discussion so often.

What does it matter if some muscle bound fanatic can do climbs he grades 9 rather than 8, 7, 6 etc.? It's all pretty much masturbatory fetishism, and nothing to do with being "modern" or old fashioned. All you are doing is turning cliffs and mountains into gymnasiums or artificial climbing wall... of no interest to man nor beast.

It wouldn't matter except that the damage is irreversible, and not only to the rock. With scaffolding and a hoist you could do 10, 11, 12 maybe 37 even, but so what?
ERU - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:

Out of interest ... is there 'anyone' at the BMC who doesn't want to put bolts everywhere in the UK?

Everytime I see another new BMC official comment on Bolts (or the Olympics but lets not get started) - I loose, more and more, faith; in the whole misguided organisation.

To me the problem is simple. Natural rock = no bolts. Quarried rock = bolts. The problem with this is that most BMC members now come from indoor walls (and many more will!) and expect to see them outside. People are too busy to do anything else ... as proved by the suggestion of bolted lower offs at Cromlech a while ago, and it won't be long before Avon gets them either. Democracy (aka the BMC) doesn't work because most of the people voting are misinformed. You know? Those people who can only use 'cams' in the Peak and have no idea how to use nuts or other gear.

I'll finish with a quote from a friend: "If you climb a sport route, you will probably forget everything about it soon after. You climb a Trad route and will probably remember 'every move' on it for decades."
remus - on 10 May 2013
In reply to ERU: I find it quite insulting that you think because some people enjoy sport climbing and support sport climbing in certain locations that they are somehow misinformed and lazy.

I can certainly understand if you don't enjoy sport climbing, but it's a nonsense to say sport climbs are more forgettable than trad routes. As with all climbing there are good routes and bad routes, you remember the good ones and forget the bad ones.
Enty - on 10 May 2013
In reply to ERU:

I'm with you on the BMC stuff. I also find it worrying that there are people involved with the BMC with bolt fever.
You're comment about forgettable route is way off though. I'm a trad climber at heart but some of my most memorable routes were fully bolted.

E
wynaptomos - on 10 May 2013

> I'll finish with a quote from a friend: "If you climb a sport route, you will probably forget everything about it soon after. You climb a Trad route and will probably remember 'every move' on it for decades."

This is just nonsense. I'm definitely predominantly a trad climber but some of the bolted routes I've done are some of the most memorable. You remember routes for all kinds of reasons whether it's being scared shitless on a trad climb or for the sheer quality of the climbing on a bolted route.
HeMa on 10 May 2013
In reply to wynaptomos:
> You remember routes for all kinds of reasons whether it's being scared shitless on a SPORT climb or for the sheer quality of the climbing on a TRAD route.

Fixed
andyathome - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:
bolted climbing.....'is a force for good'.

Martin, I will treasure that pronouncement. It probably deserves a thread all of its own! 'A force for good....'. Wow. If only the world KNEW!

I'm also intrigued that your measure of how 'good' it is is that it 'allowed' you to lead E5. Isn't that indicative of your 'real' value system? Bolts are cool because the gains I get can be applied to real climbing.......

What, however, really sucks is the current retrobolting of routes that CAN be protected perfectly adequately with leader placed gear because 'its a sport crag'. That's pathetic.

And I for one deplore the removal from the BMC policy that retrobolting of routes is not acceptable.

Chris the Tall - on 10 May 2013
In reply to ERU:
> (In reply to Frank the Husky)
>
> Out of interest ... is there 'anyone' at the BMC who doesn't want to put bolts everywhere in the UK?
>
> Democracy (aka the BMC) doesn't work because most of the people voting are misinformed. You know? Those people who can only use 'cams' in the Peak and have no idea how to use nuts or other gear.

Out of intereset, How many BMC meetings (of any sort) have you been too ?

Having been to (far) more than my fair share, I would say that both amongst the pros and volunteers in the BMC you'll find a good number of bold, trad climbers.

Something has just occurred to me. i think people tend to be more open minded when discuusing issues in person, and more polarised and extreme when arguing on the internet.
andyathome - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> i think people tend to be more open minded when discuusing issues in person, and more polarised and extreme when arguing on the internet.

For sure, Chris. But they are also maybe are less reticent, and therefore more honest, when posting under comfortable anonymity. Many area committee meetings are simply nodding heads rather than really engaged debate?
Bruce Hooker - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

But the BMC supports bolting funds, never debolting funds. It's nearly always pushing in the same direction.
Chris the Tall - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Has anyone, anywhere ever set up a debolting fund ?

Bruce Hooker - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

That's my point.
Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2013
In reply to ERU:
> (In reply to Frank the Husky)
>
> To me the problem is simple. Natural rock = no bolts. Quarried rock = bolts.

So you'd bolt Millstone but would leave Malham as a trad (aid) venue then?
Enty - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Thankfully Millstone and Malham were discovered years ago. You can bet that if they had been developed in the last 5 years the right wing at Malham and most of Millstone (maybe not the obvious cracks) would be full of bolts.
Masters Edge and Edge Lane would be polished trade routes.

E
ERU - on 11 May 2013
> Out of interest? How many BMC meetings (of any sort) have you been too ?
I've been to loads, although not recently I admit. I got a bit too used to the agendas being rattled through, not matter what was said. Most people there were either very good at shouting/debating or simply nodding their heads.

In reply to Jonny2vests:
> So you'd bolt Millstone but would leave Malham as a trad (aid) venue then?
If I'm honest, I'd also loath the above to happen. But .. deep down there is a 'part of me' that would love to see it all as 'black and white'. Could we sacrifice Millstone for an assurance of no bolts on all the other crags? The great UK bolted debate finally solved and we can all go climbing! For example, as a hypothetical theory, if Millstone was bolted up, it would probably become the most popular crag in Europe.
However, common sense should (and often does at present) apply. We look towards our history. As climbing was not invented yesterday ... our history of it is very important, although I'm pretty sure if Millstone was discovered tomorrow it would have bolts. The more dangerous and unprotected lines certainly would; as people would want it brought down to their level. To get more traffic on them because they aren't done often. Individual crags with such an important history, and gear, should (imo) be left as they are. Maybe we should agree that all quarried crags, that have good gear placments, should be used for trad gear only?
john arran - on 11 May 2013
In reply to ERU:

I know you're trolling but I wish climbers in general would get over this ridiculous obsession with leading, even if they're only prepared to do so after drilling a safety ladder up routes that are perfectly-easily top-ropeable to virtually the same effect.

Virtually every route at Millstone is easy to try on top-rope so as it stands it's perfectly set up for both those who want a safe climbing experience to top-rope and those who prefer that the sharp end hasn't been blunted into submission to lead.

Many limestone crags are very different, being often
(i) too steep to top-rope easily
(ii) hard to get round to the top
(iii) loose and gearless at the top
(iv) poorly- or unprotected anyway
so enjoying them as anything other than virtual solos would be difficult without bolting.

But if a route is trivially easy to top-rope I really struggle to see how it becomes better in any meaningful way if led on bolts.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Misha - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> Thankfully Millstone and Malham were discovered years ago. You can bet that if they had been developed in the last 5 years the right wing at Malham and most of Millstone (maybe not the obvious cracks) would be full of bolts.
> Masters Edge and Edge Lane would be polished trade routes.
>
> E

Seriously?
Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2013
In reply to ERU:
> [...]
> I've been to loads, although not recently I admit. I got a bit too used to the agendas being rattled through, not matter what was said. Most people there were either very good at shouting/debating or simply nodding their heads.
>
> In reply to Jonny2vests:
> [...]
> If I'm honest, I'd also loath the above to happen. But .. deep down there is a 'part of me' that would love to see it all as 'black and white'. Could we sacrifice Millstone for an assurance of no bolts on all the other crags? The great UK bolted debate finally solved and we can all go climbing! For example, as a hypothetical theory, if Millstone was bolted up, it would probably become the most popular crag in Europe.

i just think your 'simple' solution of separating the issue into quarried vs. non quarried is comically arbitrary. You could equally pick brown vs. white. You'd lose a lot more grit than Millstone (most of the Eastern Edges have been quarried) and end up with big pieces of un protectable (or unfreeable by all bar superheroes) natural rock like LPT, Malham main wall etc). Complex problems often have complex solutions.
ERU - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> i just think your 'simple' solution of separating the issue into quarried vs. non quarried is comically arbitrary.

Why is it? It's a good place to start from and look into the future with.
Bruce Hooker - on 11 May 2013
In reply to ERU:

For example Avon is all quarried.
Jonny2vests - on 12 May 2013
In reply to ERU:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Why is it? It's a good place to start from and look into the future with.

Well, its no place to start from really, and it was very black and white before; allow bolts on quarried rock and not natural rock. Along with Avon, lots of 'mountain' crags would be destined for the drill too. Surely you must concede it just isn't as simple as you thought?
ERU - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> Along with Avon, lots of 'mountain' crags would be destined for the drill too.

Avon is a mountain crag?
Tom V - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Frank the Husky:

So, how many posters on this thread still actually subscribe to the philosophy of "Take only photographs...etc"?
Or was that just some 80's soundbite that environmentally conscious climbers (up to a point) could pay lip service to?
Jonny2vests - on 14 May 2013
In reply to ERU:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Avon is a mountain crag?

Someone else mentioned Avon. I was adding that and many mountain crags to the list of areas you would be ok with bolting. But you knew that really.
Bruce Hooker - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

> But you knew that really.

Probably he did - there are a lot of out of work proof readers who scrutinize these forums :-)
Jonny2vests - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> [...]
>
> Probably he did - there are a lot of out of work proof readers who scrutinize these forums :-)

Indeed. Maybe he's trying to save face through distraction.
Michael Gordon - on 14 May 2013
In reply to Tom V:
> (In reply to Frank the Husky)
>
> So, how many posters on this thread still actually subscribe to the philosophy of "Take only photographs...etc"?
> Or was that just some 80's soundbite that environmentally conscious climbers (up to a point) could pay lip service to?

Most will have never placed a bolt. But anyone with a little experience will have left a sling or nut etc (or more likely many!)

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